"when I was a kid I was always worried that when I grew up my hair would turn out like my moms...dull and unhealthy looking and very thin. In retrospect that's probably cause she covered her hair..."
My mom is the same way. Her hair lost its shine, color and strength after covering it for approximately two decades. Now that she is divorced, she no longer covers her hair while at home and may someday seek a heter to leave it uncovered in public, too.
A. Nuran
offlineMember
The next question is why women in particular should cover their hair.
Someone is bound to bring up "tznius". Such a wonderful, all encompassing, term which can justify any restriction in dress, demeanour, speech or action. Its only bounds are the whims of the rabbi and the wrath of the Faithful in enforcing it. There is a touch of lip-service given to men being modest, but there are many fewer, and they don't tend to increase without end the way they do on women.
Women have to cover all their hair. By preference they should remove it completely. Women must cover everything but their faces and hands. There can't be even a hint of their figures in evidence. Women must not be heard singing. In short, everything that identifies women as women must be covered up and completely hidden.
On the other hand, men are required to show their hair and to grow extra bits that stick our from under their hats. They are all supposed to grow big jutting secondary sexual characteristics (beards). Women are not forbidden from hearing them sing. Some of the stricter sects say that men must wear form-fitting stockings that accent the male calf.
What it comes down to is absolutely classic. Women are inherently evil and seductive. Their sexual powers distract men and drag away from higher, holy things. So women have to be shorn of all signs of their basic female appeal. Couple it with a terrible fear that if women step out of line they will immediately screw every man in sight and - gasp - slip a woodscolt into the family. None of this is reciprocal, of course. Men are not forbidden from appearing male on the grounds that it will incite uncontrollable lust in women. Strictly speaking, adultery is only a crime for a married woman, not a married man.
I'm not saying that covering hair is wrong. My wife wears a headscarf - much more practical, attractive and versatile than a snood or baseball cap and doesn't require hacking off one of her prettiest features.
We just shouldn't be under any illusions as to why it's such a big issue. It's not about preventing adultery. People make the same sort of mistakes about sex all over the world. And that roughly 10% of all babies born in wedlock who were not sired by the husband is about the same Jew or Gentile and has been since we first developed scientific paternity tests. It's about control, particularly about the control of women's lives.
Phil
offlineMember
A Nuran,
Religion controls men's lives even more, as women are exempt from any positive commandments with a set time, with very few exceptions. They don't have to learn, daven 3 times a day, etc. Men also have dress codes, such as tzitzis, tefillin, tallit, etc and basic tzniut laws. I would say men's lives/time devoted to religion is at least 50% more.
As for the misinterpretaions about women's sexuality, the laws were put in place for men other than their husbands.
This is a very funny topic for me, actually, as I have a chassidishe "chosson" (don't ask) who always says, "You know, Tova...after we get married, you can shave your head!" and then he grins.
He's staying over this Shabbos, actually. I bought beer and chumus in honor of the occasion, and I hope he will get an aliya at Young Israel.
Little Poms Mom
offlineMember
Phil, the point of A.N's post wasn't that women's requirements and men's requirements very in relation to time spent fulfilling them. It was that the rationale for women's requirements are often based on nothing more than outspoken mysogyny and covert (some might argue sublimated) fear of women. These "reasons" are a HUGE part of why I'm not interested in pursuing an Orthodox conversion. Because, when I asked my Rabbi about issues of tznius, the response I got was "we give men a little more credit than that."
I dress modestly because I want to present an image that is self-respecting and holy- not because I'm afraid the mere sight of my kneecap would send my husband into a sin spiral, LOL. And even if it did (I assure you, it doesn't) that would be on HIM and his mindset....NOT my wardrobe. I refuse to accept responsibility for the immodest thoughts of men. If I'm capable of controlling MY thoughts when I walk down the street and see the latest Calvin Klein ad, any man should be able to control HIS throughts if I wear a (gasp!) sleeveless shirt. And I believe any normal, well-adjusted man can and will temper his thoughts. If not, that's his issue to hash out with Hashem...not mine.
Phil
offlineMember
LPM,
Men are more prone to get turned on by the sight of a woman than vice versa. This is scientific fact, and is also discussed in the talmud.
As such, a woman is responsible to dress and act modestly when she's around men, otherwise she ends up being the cause for their inappropriate thoughts or conduct, regardless of whether it is her "fault" or not.
A married woman's hair is considered "nakedness". As such, their are halachic ramifications of having a woman with her haired uncovered praying in a synagogue that doesn't have a proper mechitza.
Same goes for other body parts. The rabbis had to draw the line somewhere. Today, you might show a knee, tomorrow someone else will show a breast, next thing you know we'll have nudist colonies where people are shunned if their get excited. Wait, they already exist....
Misswilly
offlineMember
Hi,
I'm new here. Originally a Williamsburg girl.
Just wanted to add that it is absolutely not true that a kallah's hair get's cut in the Yichud room. It is not even sensible. She'd have to take her gown off and take a shower. Besides, the Yichud room is just that ...Yichud. Nobody can go in and only after a certain amount of time where then the photographer rushes in before it's time for Simchas Chosson V'Kallah.
It is only the next morning where either the mother comes over, or the mother in law or she does it herself.
This is absolutely the way it's practiced in Williamsburg. After the Chuppa, she already wears a wig. Perhaps that's where some are mistaken. I am not sure. But her wig is on top of her hair. No cutting involved.
If women continue to shave their hair is unknown as no one shows anyone what goes on beneath her head covering. I'd venture to say that most women do but again I do not know. I don't look under anyone's hair covering and don't let anyone look under mine.
Phil
offlineMember
You seem to be the chassidish ladies man, you talking from experience or just from what your buddies told you in yeshiva/shul?
According to gemara Gittin, once upon a time, not having a Brazilian wax was grounds for divorce. Somehow, it seems that amongst some chassidim, that moved from there to the head...
Gefilte Fish
offlineMember
Joely, the way I see it, comes from a very VERY extremely sheltered home/community. What he says that most chassidish women don't shave is totally not true, just like by the general population whatever a woman does with her privates is wholly up to her. Most women shave their pubes, legs and armpits, and some wax/laser/electrolysis. Just check out your typical frummy classifieds and see how many waxing parlors and electrolysis adverts you got there.
Phil
offlineMember
Tova,
Brazilian definitely existed even before then. According to gemara Gittin, it was one of the reasons the guy in the "pilegesh begiva" story originally dumped his concubine;
1) She didn't shave her bush properly (which was considered dangerous).
2) He found a fly in his soup (reminds me of Grover in Sesame Street).
Besides, it isn't only porn starts that shave/wax, it's cleaner and more esthetic.
Gila
offlineMember
It also causes itching and ingrown hairs, not to mention the risk of nicks and cuts in a place where you really, really don't want them.
But this entire conversation is not tzanua. Shaving/not shaving (or waxing, whatever) is a personal decision. If we can't move on from this topic, let's close the thread, please.
You must log in to post.
