Who Am I

who am iI haven’t published much poetry on this blog and the stuff I have published has not been all to serious. My friend sent this to me and asked if he could have it posted for feedback.

Who Am I

By anonymous

I have a forefather Abraham

Who

When placed in charge of the

Gods

Smashed every last one

And walked through fire.

 

Who was -

A ram away from sacrificing his son

Turning his back

To the chaos of beliefs

Swirling all around him

And showed the world his middle finger.

 

I have a fore mother Sara whose

Beauty stretched to the end of her days

And in all her years

Her only sin

Was a brief moment of skepticism.

 

I have a spiritual forefather who

Hit a rock

Drew water for an entire nation

And for that he was granted but a brief glimpse of the

Promised land.

 

I have a spiritual fore mother who

Placed her infant son

Into the mighty Nile

Swathed only in a blanket and a wicker basket

Trusting in God for his salvation.

 

I possess within me the blood line of

A king

Dead the day he was born

Yet

Left a legacy

That shapes and guides

The painful longings of his people.

 

I am the receptacle

By virtue of my birthright

Of a name, a label

Both loved and hated,

Admired and feared,

Coveted and fiercely rejected

Yet

Forever on the lips

Across the globe and across history.

 

I have been glorified

Held up as the example for the world

And been called a dog

All in the same breath.

The darkest corners of my soul carry

The anonymous pain

Born of unquestioned

Unanswered

Unchallenged

Hatred.

 

I have been granted

Been forced to carry

A shadowy legacy

Of the most shameful moments in human history.

 

I am a man

Who as a child was spoon-fed

The glories of the past,

The lessons of history,

And forever sleeps with one eye open

Distrustful of even his neighbors.

 

“Just put your head down and walk away”

A lesson Freud’s father tried to impart to him,

A phrase echoing through time

Passing from father to son

Along with the copy of the Old Testament.

The self-righteous shame and anger

In the eyes of the father

Transferred alongside.

 

I am a man

Steeped in the mythology of his people

Not by choice

Yet not by force

I feel within my being a churning wellspring of

Pride

Fear

Awe

Guilt

Respect

Shame

And a deep desire to

Both hide and revel in all that I am.

 

Who am I?

 

I am a Jew.

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Comments on this entry are closed.

  • Mordche

    WOW. That was amazing.

  • Observer

    Old Testament?

  • Chaim Danzinger

    Torah isnt mythology.

    • M.U.

      I think so.

    • quartet

      ???? ??? ?? ????? ?????, ??”?

    • A. Nuran

      Well, it’s not history. It’s not science. But it’s still a collection of stories about the god(s). That makes it mythology. Whether it is more or less true than any other mythos is a different question.

      • denver6

        And why d’you think it aint history, because you don’t believe in it?
        Well, but believe it or not, a huge chunk of the world’s population do believe that the Torah is history.

        • M.U.

          Why do they believe. Is it indoctrination or do they truly believe?

          • denver6

            They truly believe because of indoctrination, but remember, there’s no one in this world that aint indoctrinated, including you and mr A,Nuran.

            • M.U.

              Yes. The difference is we are critical thinkers. Not sheep.

              • Chaim Danzinger

                Keep telling yourself that, buddy.

                • M.U.

                  Why are you so emotional.

            • A. Nuran

              The difference is at the boundary, what we allow ourselves to question and what cannot be discussed, as well as what areas we allow to be swayed by evidence and where we apply standards consistently.

              The Rabbinic tradition has to been allow spirited, deep debate but only within very strictly defined and ever-narrower boundaries. You can argue down to the atomic level, but only if it doesn’t contradict your rabbi, his rabbi, your particular school, various poskim and of course “Torah”. There are huge areas where anyone who has been dead more than a thousand or so years is infallible, and questions of any sort are heresy.

              The scientific approach (and I include history done rigorously) is not perfect, but it has an excellent record of finding out new things, testing claims, rejecting what cannot be supported and identifying areas of ignorance.

              Take Continental Drift. It was rejected out of hand at first, sometimes viscerally. Plate tectonics were derided as “moonshine” and “pipe dreams”. Whole professional societies were set up to deride it. But over time the evidence accumulated. Hypotheses were proved out, and many of the people who rejected it tried to jump to the front of the parade and claim it had been their idea all along. Now it is so well-established that it has become a cornerstone of modern geology.

              Could it be disproved? Possibly. But by now there is so much evidence for it in so many many different domains that it would take truly monumental evidence to remove it.

          • Chaim Danzinger

            They believe because THE TORAH IS THE TRUTH.

            • Chaim Danzinger

              They believe because they are LOYAL to Hashem Yisborach.

            • M.U.

              Who’s Truth?

        • A. Nuran

          Because history in any meaningful sense is about evidence, corroboration, documentation, skepticism and most of all letting what you find guide conclusions. Toyreh doesn’t even.pretend to rise to that level on its best day. At most it assumes its conclusions and tells the sheep they can’t even listen to opposing views or contradicting evidence. That means no honest person can call it history.

          • Chaim Danzinger

            A. Nuran, youre just a dime a dozen heretic/goy.

            • A. Nuran

              And thank YOU for proving my point.
              Toyreh True Judaism is just like herp-a-derp Christian fundamentalism or Wahabi Islam. It dissolves on contact with facts, critical thinking or even the possibility that there might be a stray unauthorized outside thought. So the Believers quickly slap a Heretic tag over everything, retreat back to the bubble and pull it in tighter.

              This is not how grownups do history. It’s how frightened little children hold onto threadbare myths like security blankets.

            • A. Nuran

              The use of “goy” as an insult is particularly telling. You will screech and cry if someone disparages Jews. You’ll bleat for hours about the horrible antisemites. But you’re convinced that you are inherently superior to every Gentile simply because your Mom’s great-great-great-grandmother was USDA certified kosher. The hypocrisy and racism would be mindblowing if you weren’t so carefully denied the intellectual tools to see it.

              • Chaim Danzinger

                I dont even care about what you have to say, heretic.

              • Chaim Danzinger

                Judaism is a racist religion, buddy.

                • A. Nuran

                  There are two possibilities. Either you’re a troll or you’re serious. If you’re a troll, congratulations for keeping this going so far. Give yourself an Internets out of petty cash.

                  If you’re serious, it’s difficult to understand why a decent person would practice your brand of Judaism other than at gunpoint.

                  • Chaim Danzinger

                    Orthodoxy is one one true Judaism.

                    Orthodoxy is the one true religion.

                    • Chaim Danzinger

                      m-my mesorah

                      m-my national revelation

                    • skeptic

                      I’m pretty sure this guy’s a troll…

                • denver6

                  Is it? That was never my understanding of it.
                  The way I understand the ‘chosen’ ideology is based on the pasuk that says that we jews were chosen as priests and servants before God, i.e., we were chosen to do the hard work (work here=following the Toireh) of the world, while the goiyim can rely on our work for the peaceful existence of the world, not very dissimilar to how an ant colony relies on its workers for survival, and the workers are the ‘backbone’ of the whole army.

                  Furthermore, Judaism believes that everyone is created with the image of God, that every human is considered a child of God, that every human is a child of the holy people Adam and Noach, that every human will get resurrected in the future, even the most wicked ones (they will be punished in the ‘new world’ to be created, while everyone else will live happily ever after), that people won’t get punished for their sins if they are simply following the lifestyle they were brought up with or they were taught to do so from a young age.

                  Can you find me a racist pasuk in the Toireh? I’m curious…

                  • Chaim Danzinger

                    How about the fac that Jews are forbidden to marry gentiles, goyim arent allowed to learn Torah, and Torah sees Goyim as second-class citizens?

                    • denver6

                      A Kohen isn’t allowed to marry a widow or a divorced women, does this make the Toireh racist as well? Me don’t think so.
                      The Toireh says that you’re not allowed to marry a heathen/idol worshiper because integrating with them so closely may result in YOU turning into a heathen via the their influence. This has nothing to do with their RACE.

                      Goiyim not allowed to learn Toireh is an opinion of someone in the Talmud or the consensus of the Talmud -I’m not sure, but even according to them, a go y is allowed to learn what is relevant to them, and anyways,believe me, no one will ‘act upon’ a goy learning Toireh, not in the Talmudic times and not nowadays and not in the future.
                      Remember that the Talmud also theorizes that women aren’t allowed to learn this or that, while at the same time celebrating women who were very learnt in the Talmud.
                      By the way, you can find nowadays orthodox rabbanim learning Talmud with girls, Halocheh kebasra…

                      Give me an example of the Toireh treating goiyim as second-class citizens and we’ll talk it through..

          • denver6

            Remember, were talking about the 5 books of the Toyreh,
            so where exactly did you see in these books a pasuk which says ‘you cant listen to opposing views’, I somehow missed that.

            Also, you can clearly see in numerous pasukim in the Toyreh that they are basically history documentation, I understand that you may not believe that the subject matter is true history, something probably makes you think that everything was written down with not the most ‘pure’ intentions. But you’d be surprised to find that many historians use the Tanach to back up their views, the same as they’d use Josephus’ or Ramesses’ writings, for example, regarding the prestige of the Hittites vs the Egyptians.
            Which now begs the same question again, why can’t you view the Toireh as history? What about parts of it? (if you don’t like the other parts very much..).

            Another point I’d like to send across is that even the most lab-grade most peer-reviewed history papers also require a leap of faith if you want to take them for granted.

            • A. Nuran

              If you’re willing to subject Tanakh to the same sort of rigorous analysis as other history that’s great. But you have to be willing to either say that it can’t be taken literally or be willing to accept that the evidence will force you to re-assess things that you believed.

              First, there are the creation stories in Genesis. We know infinitely more about the physical universe than we did three thousand years ago. The stories can’t be squared with the evidence. The Earth is billions, not thousands of years old. There was no flood. The Earth isn’t flat. There isn’t a “firmament” above and waters below. The Earth and other planets go around the Sun, so on and so forth.

              There is no evidence for the Exodus, not from the Egyptians’ records, not from physical evidence in Sinai or in historical Canaan. We don’t have written Torah going back to Sinai. Even the story of Ezra the Scribe admits that we had lost everything down to one copy which he says was perfectly accurate. And at that, the oldest versions like the Aleppo Codex are fragmentary.

              All this and more means it is very difficult to support the claim that Tanakh can be taken as an accurate record of what happened in the Ancient Near East.

              And that’s just the Written Torah. Any historian or folklorist understands just how much oral traditions change. If we apply the same rigor to the claims that thousands of bits of oral tradition are all immutable and go all the way back to Sinai you can see the problems. And that’s just in one tradition of Judaism, albeit nearly the only one that survived. Others had their own oral traditions, many of which are different.

              It is certainly possible to say “These are Sacred. And they’re worth following because of that, but they aren’t meant to be taken literally.” That’s a reasonable and defensible position to take.

              • Izzy

                As a professional geologist, I must concur with the logic of A Nuran. At what point does a written record (the foundation of our faith, the Torah) supersede the geologic record? If Hashem is all powerful, couldn’t he have given us the ability to read both? To question both?

                Excerpted from the Web – “In 1930, Einstein composed a kind of creed entitled “What I Believe,” at the conclusion of which he wrote: “To sense that behind everything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense…I am a devoutly religious man.” In response to a young girl who had asked him whether he believed in God, he wrote: “everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe—a Spirit vastly superior to that of man.” And during a talk at Union Theological Seminary on the relationship between religion and science, Einstein declared: “the situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”

                • A. Nuran

                  Time for a couple of my favorite quotes, one from G. K. Chesterton
                  “I should hardly have thought, sir,” he said, “that you had any quarrel with mystical explanations”
                  “On the contrary,” replied Father Brown, blinking amiably at him. “That’s just why I quarrel with ‘em. Any sham lawyer could bamboozle me, but he couldn’t bamboozle you; because you’re a lawyer yourself. Any fool could dress up as a Red indian and I’d swallow him whole as the only original Hiawatha; but Mr. Crake could see through him at once. A swindler could pretend to me that he knew all about aeroplanes, but not to Captain Wain. And it’s just the same with the other, don’t you see? It’s just because I have picked up a little about mystics that I have no use for mystagogues. Real mystics don’t hide mysteries, they reveal them. They set a thing up in broad daylight, and when you’ve seen it it’s still a mystery. But the mystagogues hide a thing in darkness and secrecy, and when you find it, it’s a platitutde.”

                  One from Terry Pratchett:
                  “I feel,” said Blind Io, “that if we had wanted people to fly, we would have given them wings.” … “This is an attempt to subvert the natural order. Just anyone could float around the place in one of these things.” He shuddered. “Men could look down upon their Gods!”
                  He looked down upon Leonard of Quirm.
                  “Why did you do it?” he said.
                  “You gave me wings when you showed me birds.” said Leonard of Quirm. “I just made what I saw.”
                  The rest of the gods said nothing. Like many professionally religious people – and they were pretty professional, being gods – they tended towards unease in the presenced of the unashamedly spiritual.

                  [...]

                  “None of us recognise you as a worshipper.” said Io. “Are you an atheist”?”
                  “I think I can say that I definitely believe in the gods,” said Leonard, looking around. This seemed to satisfy everyone except Fate. “And is that all?” he said. Leonard thought for a while. “I think I believe in the secret geometries, and the colours on the edge of light, and the marvellous in everything,” he said.
                  “So you’re not a religious man. then?” said Blind Io.
                  “I am a painter.”
                  “That’s a “no”, then, is it? I want to be clear on this.”
                  “Er … I don’t understand the question.” said Leonard. “As you ask it.”
                  “I don’t think we understand the answers,” said Fate. “As you give them.”

                  One from Roger Zelazny:
                  Ah, but it makes a great difference, you see. It is the difference between the unknown and the unknowable, between science and fantasy — it is a matter of essence. The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. I may submit to the unknown, but never to the unknowable. The man who bows in that final direction is either a saint or a fool. I have no use for either

                  • Izzy

                    Good science is not an illusion…Hashem long ago gave us a road map to make the world a better place and we are still trying to read it. Perhaps Hashem even gave us the brain capacity to determine our own path.

                    • A. Nuran

                      To which quote are you referring? Certainly not the Pratchett. Absolutely not the Zelazny.

                      Chesterton was making two distinct points above
                      1) People are limited by their experience and expertise. The priest knew nothing about airplanes. The lawyer knew nothing about mysticism.
                      2) The real mysteries aren’t things that have to be hidden away. That’s the sign of someone trying to defraud you.

                    • Izzy

                      It’s just a statement of what I believe…sorry, I was not commenting on anything you wrote that I disagreed with…was just making a follow-up statement. I agree what you that we all filter what we choose to believe. A person with rose-colored glasses will only see red. When we think we are seeing the full spectrum, are we really?
                      I am certainly not a learned Torah scholar and don’t pretend to understand its many layers of relevance that become evident to those who study it religiously. There is nothing wrong with being learned as it applies to Torah but there is something wrong when events or actions are simply accepted as fact without a logical consideration. Why do some things in the Torah have to be accepted as fact, on good faith (like the timing of creation), whereas others can be modified by the Rabbis (we don’t stone adulterers, do we)? Some laws of Torah are made ultimately fluid (modernized) by man’s choice…..am I wrong on this?

                    • A. Nuran

                      Ah, got it.

                      Thinking clearly, seeing what’s actually in front of you, understanding the implications and addressing the evidence without emotional attachment to the consequences is difficult. You went through four years of undergraduate education plus at least that much indentured servitude in graduate school in the hopes that you would be able to do this in one specific intellectual field. Most people don’t even get that far.

                      Besides, thought you’d like the bit by Zelazny :)

                    • denver6

                      According to the Jewish tradition, nothing was ever ‘modified’ ,the way the Talmud understood the laws was officially the way we understood it back in the Bereshis years. But Rabbanim can change HOW laws are executed or WHEN to follow this law or that law, this all based on their understanding of the Toireh.

                      Stoning is still here, we learned about it in school, where we also learned that the Talmud says that judges should do all they can to stay away from capital punishments, they have to ask people for a limmud zchus, etc.etc. But the basic belief in stoning was never modified, and according to tradition, the way the Talmud saw it was the way we always understood it.

                      Now, regarding the timing of the earth, there is simply no need whatsoever to bend or ‘modify’ the Toireh because modern science has accepted that things are older than what we see in seder olam. (see my big comment below).
                      And by the way, what the heck d’you think? That we follow the Toireh as a joke? as a lifestyle choice? What’s the point then?
                      It’s all about belief, we follow it because we believe in it and we believe in our tradition. If you believe in it, you believe in it entirely, if you don’t believe in it than you have nothing to do with it and nothing to modify about it..

                      But there are many nice ways to make the Toireh harmonious with modern science, that’s non-modifying ways, so no changing of timings. Just one example: An all-powerful God hasn’t got a problem with making the universe 6000 years old while simultaneously making it billions of years old, He can create the world together with creating its history, so when you’re looking back all the millions of years through fossils,etc., you’re indeed looking back there, but it’s only there because He placed it there about 6000 years ago.

                    • Izzy

                      Hashem gave man the gift of logic and illogic….clearly some more than others.

              • Chaim Danzinger

                A. Nuran, you know deep in your heart that the Torah is true.

                • A. Nuran

                  Historically? Scientifically? All the chumras? Whatever as someone with “daas Torah” says? That every word in mishneh Torah came from Sinai?

                  Or do you mean in the way that the Qur’an says every child is born Muslim and only becomes a Jew or Christian because of the way he’s raised?

                  Please be precise

              • Chaim Danzinger

                These are all falsehood. Your grandchildren are going to be gentiles.

                • A. Nuran

                  The Creation myths, the Flood, the Exodus, the provenance of the Torah and the so-called Oral Torah have been debunked? Certainly. The only “evidence” for them are the ravings and fairy tales of illiterate Bronze and Iron Age barbarians. But there are still people who believe in them despite all the evidence.

                  Oh, you mean Geology, Biology, Archaeology, Paleontology, Astronomy, Cosmology, History, Linguistics, Textual Analysis and a hundred other fields have all been swept away by some doddering graybeard whose only qualifications are memorizing and arguing about those fairy tales. Good Lord, you really are serious. Tell you what. Head over here and start reading. Or download the last couple episodes of Neil de Grasse Tyson’s Cosmos. Learn something about the difficult, dangerous, rewarding and wondrous world that Science opens up.

            • A. Nuran

              What psak said you have to believe and can’t question the essentials? Start with the Rambam’s 13 principles. And if you are going to ask questions you’ll have to ditch the very idea of a psak as well as a number of other assumptions of normative Jewish discourse such as the infallibility of, say, Chazal . Seriously, it will take you out past the lights of the campfires

              • denver6

                I was asking for a pasuk in the Toireh, not a psak.

                But anyway, I’d like to address again your arguments on the Toireh and its historic capacity vis-a-vis mainstream modern science.

                You mention the earth being billions of years old and there never having been a flood, etc., And that all these accepted theories invalidate the Toireh (at least on a literal sense).

                So basically, according to you, Toireh:0, science:1

                Science has won! The Toireh is fantasy!

                Well, it may sound smart at first, until you realize that this mindset only works if:

                a)You believe with full faith that modern science is wholly correct and there will never come newer theories and displace the current ones.

                b)You believe with full faith that there can be no one who has control over what we see as evidence or has control over the nature of the evidence itself, in other words, you believe that there are only natural laws in the universe, and there is no higher power that can mess with your ‘rigorous’ analysis.

                d)You have full trust in the ones doing the actual research.

                e)You are fairly presumptuous and like to make blanket statements.

                All these require you take a big leap of faith, the same kind of thing a charedi would do in his faith of the Toireh. But while many charedim will honestly admit that their belief in the Toireh is of pure blind faith based on tradition, you sound like you think of yourself as the more enlightened critical thinker, no blind faith for me!

                But if you look at it from my perspective, you will see that this view is actually far detached from reality.

                You see, charedim dwell in the Toireh and believe in their Toireh scholars, while you do the same but with different texts and people, i.e. you dwell in science and believe what the scientists tell you, they are your heroes.

                If you say that science has the advantage because it changes based on our observable experiences, then know that this is also its great weakness, because what you believe in today may not be what you will believe in tomorrow. So using these things to invalidate other’s theories today, may make you a fool tomorrow.. This also points out that using science as a whole to invalidate the Toireh plus its thousands of years of tradition is very silly.
                Science changes, so what we believe that it happened and what didn’t happen will be very different from what we think in the coming centuries. Yes we do know infinitely more about the universe then we did before, but the ‘know’ is of the type of ‘we think we know’.
                Also,again, science hasn’t stopped, modern science is still pretty young in fact.
                But you seem to have made a religion out of current mainstream science. Results being, that it clashes with a different religion.. Judaism.

                Now, modern sciences do seem to work, just look at all the goods and not-so-goods that it brought us, but when science mixes with history, that’s where things get very uncertain.
                For example, let’s take a look on evolution, where evidence officially include fossils, carbon dating and DNA.

                Onto themselves these evidence aren’t of much worth.
                But linking one evidence to the other is what scientists do in order to create the big evolutionary picture, and the big ‘fossil record’. But this linking requires a belief, not very unsimilar to the above mentioned blind faith in the Toireh, i.e. you believe that what you see and play around on the ground must result in evolution because ‘it looks like thats what happened’ or ‘it must be like that, how else can you explain it’, these science beliefs are simple ‘this must=that beliefs’, these are the ‘evidence’ for evolution.

                Some examples:

                Both share the same DNA=they must be related

                That’s the nature of them as we see now=that must have been their nature all along

                Two fossils look similar=they must be related

                carbon dating gives this figure=it indeed must be that old in years

                I can give many other examples where there can be thousands of different possibilities, but modern science has chosen one because ‘that’s how we understand it’.

                So what makes you think that ‘that’s how we understand it’ is so full of truth that it trumps tradition? Both require a leap of faith, and both seem to be full-fledged religions nowadays,
                each one with their fervent followers.
                You will see tons of evidence if you want to see it, and you won’t see any it if you don’t want to see it.

                And talking about evolution, I laugh every time someone tries to use evolution to invalidate the Toireh while arguing with someone who Believes in God.

                Apart from the reality that there are no hard evidence for evolution. Since he believes in an all-powerful God, he can claim that:

                a)God put down all these evidence to confuse us and help our mechanism of free will.

                b)Only God knows the secrets how these theories work harmoniously together with the Toireh, He hid them from us.

                c)God almighty made it all perfectly fit together, since He can do everything, He can speed up or slow down evolution at will, in fact He can even reverse evolution, He can also create everything in six days, all while creating the history. So maybe when He created man from soil, part of the creation process was to create its unique evolutionary history…

                d)God can sprinkle fossils here and there in order to provide enjoying activities for professional paleontologists and amateur fossil hunters alike.

                There are many other examples, but I guess these are enough.

                Another point on the ‘evidence’:
                The Greeks also had many ‘evidence’ for their science, but now we just laugh at their science, who will laugh at our science?

                By calling others beliefs fantasies based on your beliefs, your whole argument of you being the more objective one falls apart, you are actually very subjective.

            • Chaim Danzinger

              Judaism is a Talmudic religion, not a biblical religion.

              • denver6

                That’s simply not true, of course the Talmud is usually the ‘respected base’ of everything we practice, but the Toireh itself is viewed as much more holy and much more un-touchable than the Talmud, in fact, you’ll find rishoinim,achroinim and even meforshim (that entered the standard mikroes-gedolos chimish) that all argue with some views of the Talmud.
                Part of our mesoireh is to argue about halachah and challenge prior assumptions in order to widen the understanding of the Toireh, that’s why we always come up with new ‘chidushim’ and dvar Toirehs,shalles,tsheevos,etc.

                Yes the Talmud is our main window to the Toireh, and the Talmud must be consulted and respected, but the Talmud itself makes a huge distinction between the Toireh and itself, and the Talmud itself says that each generation has different needs and therefore different rabanim, a talmudic sage or a rabbi from long ago couldn’t pasken shaalos for us today (at least not before getting naturalized..).

                Tanach is our main sacred text and our only unmovable text. Period.

        • skeptic

          An even bigger chunk of the world’s population also believes that the Q’ran is history.
          In 400 BC, a huge chunk of the world’s population believed in the divinities of Zeus, Poseidon and Aphrodite.
          What’s your point?

          • denver6

            The first big chunk of people that you mention also believe in the historicity of the Torah so that gives you a 4 billion+ believers in the divinity of the Torah, but let me answer your ‘whats your point’ question.
            My point is simple, if most of the world thinks that something is what it is, then that becomes an acceptable view and that’s the norm of how we see it and refer to it, so in the eyes of ‘the world’, it becomes acceptable as history and something above mythology.
            You can think otherwise, but does that mean I cant argue with you? No!
            I was just trying to say that said opinion isn’t in the majority nowadays, so defining something as mythology if it isn’t based on a majority is stupid, especially in our ‘majority rules’ world.

        • Ching

          I think you can still classify Torah/Toireh a mythology and believe that it is true. Yeah, it does bear resemblance to other mythologies and legendariums, that’s a fact. For example, Tolkien (who wasn’t one of the Tribe, but is a brilliant thinker and scholar and writer) believed in his faith as a “true myth”.

          I’m a goy and I will always be one, but I loved this poem. And the history and identity of Klal Yisrael is one of the strongest reasons I believe in G-d. To me, G-d and Am Yisroel are inseparable. There’s a part of me, outside my head, outside of logic (but not contrary to it), and I think its a part of every human soul, a part that knows and believes and experiences the Divine, a part that has found the ultimate peace and truth of the universe (for myself at least) in the Torah and the G-d who wrote it.

          I love this poem because it isn’t black and white. Its not triumphalist or arrogant. Its deep and conflicted and honest and real, true to the world, at least true to the world the author lives in and probably can ring true for others as well.

          One has to be very brave to bare one’s heart when writing poetry that’s so personal. Kudos!

          Peace!

  • Chaim Danzinger

    Torah is min-ha-fucking-Shomayim.

  • Chaim Danzinger

    by the way, the poem sucks. Rated accordingly.

    • A. Nuran

      You are just a little bundle of joy and sunshine today

  • Izzy

    The poem was great…loved it.
    Lives of great men all remind us
    We can make our lives sublime,
    And, departing, leave behind us
    Footprints on the sands of time – H.W. Longfellow

  • A. Nuran

    A very good poem. Keep at it.

  • A. Nuran

    With Heshy’s permission I’d like to post a link to a Pesach poem my wife wrote a few years back

  • quartet

    ??? ??? ?? ?’ ?????, ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????”?, ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??”? ??? ??? ???”? ??????? ??? ???”? ????”?.

    • curious

      Can u translate?

      • quartet

        ??? ????, ?’??? ????? ????? ?? ????????? ????.

  • observation

    A good poem pulls for emotion from a person. This poem has generated quite a lively discussion so whether you can relate to the emotions and views being expressed, it is a great poem by the standard of what poetry is supposed to do – challenge us.

    • r6

      I second that. Emotions are indeed high on this page.

  • Hymie

    I like it: It’s good.

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