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Is saving your virginity worth it?

old loner single guyThere’s an article in the NY Times today about a woman who is a 35 year old virgin, I know plenty of people who are 35 year old virgins, but they are only virgins because they are frum. Is all the pain and suffering that shomer negiah causes, worth it? I’ve asked myself this question over the years and so have others. There was the famous shomer negiah blog by an older girl in shidduchim who’s entire life seemed to revolve around whether or not to break negiah, I don’t think she’ll be rewarded for the bittul z’man, depression, and anger that she caused herself. However, we are talking about sex here, not a simple make out session after a date with some random frumster guy. I wonder what the talmudists of yore, would have said about never enjoying one of God’s greatest creations before you died.

If my yeshiva hadn’t spent inordinate amounts of time on trying to scare us into saving our seed for our wives, rather than spilling it on the bathroom floor, I’m sure some of us may not have had that focus. The sad truth is that yeshivas do spend too much time on masturbation and girls and hence, that’s what we want to do with our lives. Sure, we had conversations about sex before marriage, but in my heart I knew that the only reason most of us weren’t having sex, was because we didn’t have the opportunity. My first opportunity came along at 19 and I never even had a machlokes with my yetzer harah, those opportunities presented themselves ever so often, with an increasing of them as Frum Satire became more popular. Thank god for that, because I think that non-virgins should not marry virgins. In my little world, I’ve known of marriage troubles starting with the “but you had so much experience before” to “I didn’t know I married used goods”. So, yes virginity and lack of it present problems in frum marriages.

However, this article is more about those older singles who are holding out for marriage, I know that most don’t hold out. I’ve met some fairly frum types, the folks who want someone who’s koveah ittim and wears a hat to shul, that have point blank told me that they “needed” that experience in order to have a reason to keep along the painful trail of shidduchim. I met 3 single girls in their upper 20’s in a pesach hotel once that told me they had a pact that if they weren’t married by 35 they would lose their virginity’s, a long time, but interesting nonetheless.

I think by now, we can assume that shomer negiah is a lost art, I’m of the personal opinion that it pushes people into marriage because it brings on intense feelings that are probably just there because you can’t touch. Many people do experience heightened feelings upon touching for the first time, but once you get some a lot of people don’t retain those feelings. To quote a friend of mine “I know it’s a good shidduch, if I get some and actually want to stick around”.

I assume that at some point of singledom, everyone is approached with the sex question. I find that hashkafic based levels and dating spheres start to break down at about 30 years of age. Meanings that at age 30 is when people start to venture out of their hashkafic realm. This means that yeshivish people start to venture to modern orthodoxy and visa versa, this means a lot more exposure to casual settings like meals, singles events, and places where a shidduch may be the eventual goal, but it isn’t the sole goal. I can only base things off of my own experience, but my friends who grew up and remained somewhat yeshivish, are mostly non-virgins at this juncture (30-33 years old).

It’s hard to put a price on virginity, I think it’s become more mythology and fantasy than anything. We are sexual freer and more depraved than ever. Even the NY Times article would be hard to understand by many frum people, regardless of their virginity status. I have frum (shomer shabbos, shul every day, chavrusa, kosher) friends who’ve been with 50 girls/guys, but it’s uncommon. Sexual freedom isn’t a frum thing and will never be, but there are probably less virgins than ever before and I guess it’s a good thing they don’t mention the bisula thing on wedding invitations anymore.

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{ 42 comments… add one }
  • Crowin' Cock November 14, 2013, 9:08 AM

    Ketubah’s still say “the bisula thing”, kind of like advertising “extra virgin” olive oil.

    • Dumpster Diva November 14, 2013, 9:26 PM

      Or Extra Extra Virgin olive oil 😉

  • sarah November 14, 2013, 10:00 AM

    I am jewish but not frum, wasnt raised that way but grew up in a neighborhood with lots of orthodox folks. I am slowly trying to observe shabbos and kosher.

    i was a virgin until i got married at 25. I did think that it made me feel more “precious”. I worried that if I slept with my first boyfriend, I would have slept with all my subsequent boyfriends. I dated about 6 guys until I met the One.
    Was it a problem at times ? Yes. But it helped me weed out the guys who were wrong for me, and some did make me feel like I was a freak for being a virgin at 22, which I dont think is a big deal. Also, I had known girls who got pregnant from unsupportive boyfriends and watched too many episodes of True Life: I Have Herpes to consider adding more potential stress to my life.
    The guy I married was not a virgin, actually he was very far from it. Whats funny is that he was more religious than me. In the beginning, he did pressure me, but as time went on he realized that my mind was set, and he completely respected my wishes. If I could do it again, I would, because I believe women should know their worth and not sleep with a guy because she feels obligated to.

  • Anonymous November 14, 2013, 12:24 PM

    In such a context, a female virgin is a factory-sealed object of desire; a collector’s item offered in its original packaging, and thus of higher value.

    A male virgin is merely an inexperienced little klutz.

  • A. Nuran November 14, 2013, 12:35 PM

    I dated and had a fairly typical love life before meeting my wife.
    She had been married once before.

    We have an excellent love life. It wouldn’t have been better or worse if we’d both been inexperienced.

    • yankelyoffen November 14, 2013, 2:13 PM

      How do you know that?

      • A. Nuran November 14, 2013, 3:18 PM

        After twenty years you know pretty much every atom in the other person. Yes, there was a past way back when. It’s the present and future that are important.

        • DRosenbach November 14, 2013, 5:14 PM

          …and I’ll bet your wife has a lot of atoms.

          “I, a universe of atoms, an atom in the universe.” ~Feynman

  • Yeshayahu November 14, 2013, 1:48 PM

    Dress in all black, leave the city, and do what our holy forefathers did.

    • Anonymous November 14, 2013, 2:03 PM

      Refresh my memory what did they do again?

      • A. Nuran November 14, 2013, 3:19 PM

        Copulated like crazed weasels and lied about it the next day.

  • Girl From Maryland November 14, 2013, 3:47 PM

    Virgins make the best lovers.

    • A. Nuran November 15, 2013, 5:47 PM

      I hope you’re joking.

  • SG November 15, 2013, 3:50 AM

    Is doing it with the left hand count?

    • Piggy November 15, 2013, 9:21 AM

      Only if you’re a lefty and the free hand is not holding your tzitzis, saving it from, chas v’sholem, touching your exposed middle leg.

      • SG November 15, 2013, 9:54 AM

        I was also thinking the same thing, but my reasoning was different. One would not want to use his tfillin wearing hand for this type of stuff. It would be just wrong, people need to have some standards!

  • tuvia November 15, 2013, 2:20 PM

    As a maybe BT i was wondering why people told me hasidim are big in to hookers. I argued it couldn’t be. so i went to check it out myself at three places, in seperate non frum parts of manhattan.

    i asked each girl i hired. the consensus was about fifty to seventy percent of their customers were hasidic. these places would probably close without hasids.

    it had no bearing on my deciding not to be frum – though i do think the lying that goes on in describing the frum community is cowardly.

    my favorite girl said about fifty percent — she then told me she was Jewish too, but not orthodox, conservative…


    • A. Nuran November 15, 2013, 5:51 PM

      It shouldn’t be so surprising.

      They can’t date in the normal sense.
      They can’t have girlfriends.
      There is very strong social pressure against divorce.
      They are often inexperienced and awkward dealing with women, so normal hookups are more difficult.
      There’s a serious virgin/strumpet complex.

      • T November 16, 2013, 7:24 PM

        Not true. AIDS and STDs in general are unknown in the Hasidic community. If the men really used prostitutes in such numbers it would be much higher.

        • A. Nuran November 16, 2013, 7:57 PM

          Don’t most people in that business use condoms?

        • tuvia November 16, 2013, 9:26 PM

          these girls do hand and oral stuff. i don’t think they do sex — maybe some do. certainly condoms.

          • SG November 17, 2013, 5:52 AM

            Even if some are using hookers, it’s probably small percentage. I ran numbers, & even if 1% of Ultras using it would be approx. 400 men, which probably are customers of your hooker friends.

        • A. Nuran November 18, 2013, 4:23 AM

          So are child molestation, financial impropriety and so many other things.
          There’s a difference between “not talked about” and “don’t happen”.

          • T November 18, 2013, 5:39 AM

            My mother is an OB/GYN for women in the Chassidish community. If she says it’s unheard of, it’s unheard of.

            • Sergeant J November 18, 2013, 4:23 PM

              Unless she holds by that whole “medical confidentiality’ thing….

              • a November 18, 2013, 8:06 PM

                If there is no identifier, there is no issue of confidentiality. As an aside, I’m a med student and I asked an ob/gyn, who has a practice in Williamsburg, who I rotated with, about STD rates in th Hassidic community. He informed me that while they exist, he finds them to be much less common.

    • Anonymous November 16, 2013, 12:59 PM

      Exactly. What’s so surprising.

      • anon November 16, 2013, 2:59 PM

        Those guys need to watch porn once a month. Release some of that stress.

        • SG November 17, 2013, 5:44 AM

          Once a month will not cut it, couple of times a week is more like it!

    • Dan November 17, 2013, 3:27 PM

      Of course, 50-70 of their customers are chassidim. You of course made that up, it’s Nuran and the other retards believing it who make me wonder.

      • A. Nuran November 17, 2013, 10:06 PM

        Ah, that’s how “Toy-reh sharpens the mind”. Telling truths you don’t like is “retarded”. Dan, let me let you in on a secret. Despite their raw gum 200 proof racist belief in their own superiority Chassidim are NOT the sharpest pencils in the chandelier.

        • Ari Gold November 18, 2013, 5:18 AM

          Nuran, just ignore Dan The Troll.

  • Tuvia November 16, 2013, 2:05 PM

    Not surprising. What is always surprising is BT types getting enraged at the suggestion such things go on.
    What is surprising is Jews who lie about their world. Lie to themselves, to you, to the rest of the community.
    Lying signals there is something wrong with the basic self concept of that world.

    • T November 17, 2013, 6:34 AM

      You are lying

  • Challah Maidel November 17, 2013, 1:45 AM

    Telling a teenager to save him/herself for marriage is one thing. It may not have the same affect on singles in their upper 20’s and above. There are mikvaot that will allow single women to use them. If you value your virginity, it may be worth your while to save it for someone special. But I can sympathize with those who grow frustrated after a while. I waited till I was married at 24. As did my husband. I saved myself mainly out of convenience even though I had plenty of opportunities and guys throwing themselves at me. I grew up religious but no one really explained the importance of saving yourself till marriage in depths. I was told that pre-marital sex is frowned upon in Judaism because a) unmarried women have the status of a niddah since they no longer visit mikvaot b) Sex between unmarried couples is not as holy and downright immoral c) you run into the problem of STD’s or dealing with children conceived out of wedlock. I didn’t have to save myself. I could have lied about my marital status and gone to the mikvah anyways. I could have ordered birth control when I was in my teens. I could have lied to my parents about going to a study group when I was actually going to hook up with someone at a bar or a club. I wouldn’t have been able to married a Kohen but it wouldn’t have been a crisis for me. I didn’t save myself because I was too chicken to loose my virginity nor for religious reasons. I had more men coming after me that Osama Bin Laden. If I were to have surrendered my Chasity, I would have been very selective in terms of who I want to have my first time with. I didn’t find anyone in the least to say. I wanted my first time to be special; something that I can forever cherish. I didn’t want it to feel like a cheap one-night stand. If I were still single, I can’t tell you that I would still be a virgin. Nor would I be just as religious. If I would have given in, I would have been labeled a slut and a whore. People would lose whatever respect they had for me. It may be easier for guys to walk a away from it but if people find out that a girl has slept around, her reputation is nearly damaged beyond repair unless she doesn’t care what her community will think of her. I was asked if I was “Kohen eligible” by matchmakers before which offended me. I was also set up with guys who had wild party pasts with former girlfriends. I had to turn the match down. Not because I was disgusted by their promiscuous behaviors. Its hard to make love to someone if you know that you are not his first love. Plus no one wants to think of the lovers that their spouses have sexually been involved with when making love to them. While I don’t recommend that teenagers should have sex since they are not mature enough to understand what they are doing nor the consequences that ensue from it. I do understand that sexual pressure can be too intense for one to handle when they are older. What people do with their bodies and sexuality is no ones business. I agree that non-virgins shouldn’t insist on dating and marrying virgins only unless the virgin is willing to forgive them and look past their romantic affairs with other people.

    • SG November 17, 2013, 9:30 AM

      I believe if woman slept with a Jew out of wedlock, she is still Kohen legible.

      “I had more men coming after me that Osama Bin Laden” -seriously?

    • Anonymous November 17, 2013, 1:13 PM

      You need to read Bereshit again.

    • Anony Chick November 20, 2013, 3:21 AM

      “you run into the problem of STDs or dealing with children conceived out of wedlock”

      If the guy(s) wear a condom you don’t have these issues. People get pregnant because they don’t use condoms. The pill isn’t great because girls forget to take it. I have a friend that got pregnant and had like 3 abortions that our friend group could come up with comparing notes. There were probably more. She lied to men and told them she was only with like 4 guys but really she slept around. Us girls knew. I remember she disappeared at a club once and when she turned back up she told me she was ….. in the parking garage with some guy. She was usually sleeping with 3 to 5 guys at a time. However, this business about reputation is silly. A smart girl will have strange with a guy not connected to her friend group and never tell anyone about it.

  • utubefan December 12, 2013, 7:20 PM

    It may be interesting to read everyone’s experiences/reactions after they broke Negiah and/or had sex for the first time as a frum single. I’m curious to know how many people broke Negiah but did not sleep with anyone, how they felt about it, was it worth it, any regrets or no regrets, how religious the person they shared this with was, etc. No one really ever talks about this in the frum world and definately not after you’re married (at least, not the women). So, what happened, where did it happen, how old were you and how did you feel about it afterward? I think, btw, that this should be a separate post in case you’re interested, Heshy.

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