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Halachic questions: Is hot boxing considered yichud?

cops and weedDear Heshy,

As marijuana becomes more acceptable in the frum community (I knew we’d catch up someday) I have begun writing “must be 420 friendly” on my shidduch resumes and online dating accounts. I find that most shadchanim have no idea what it is, which is good, because most of the time the only folks who know are already 420 supportive and friendly. With new ideas come new shayala’s and I really don’t want to ask my Rav this question because his derech is very 1980’s Boro Park if you know what I mean.

I wonder if hot boxing my car with a shidduch date is assur, could it be considered yichud, due to the closeness it may bring? Could it be considered frivolous if my date is not a regular smoker even though I am and therefore I have more control over my actions? I’ve also felt that some may consider mind altering substances assur to use with anyone not your spouse, yet many rabbonom have allowed dates to “go for drinks” and everyone can mostly agree that alcohol is far more mind altering and damaging than marijuana could ever hope to be.

Stoner looking for a shidduch

I’m not sure where you’re living, but the only place I’ve been where marijuana is fairly acceptable by the frum community is in the Bay Area. This is only because it’s somewhat legal out here and anyone could go and buy some from a legit store, rather than some cracked out off the derech kid selling it on a street corner in Brooklyn. I hope that one day the taboo will wear off and frum people, many of whom really should be getting high once in a while, will come to accept marijuana is a good alternative to cigarettes and alcohol which are much more of a sakana for you than weed could ever hope to be. Until then, I doubt that most rabbis would even give you a p’sak concerning such matters. I’m not sure that my halachic knowledge is adequate enough to decide your questions. I’d like to turn it over to the talmudicly inclined frum satire readers, however I do have several ideas.

The yichud in a car question has been posed before, apparently it’s ok if you’re not on a country road in the middle of nowhere, since nowadays we have no fear of God and just of man – who knows what could happen. The problem in your case is that smoking would usually require that you are in a place where no one is around, presenting problems of yichud. The other issue is that frum people generally don’t have a mesorah to sit in unmoving vehicles at high points overlooking cities, this is considered to be a goyishe zach that almost always precedes sexual activity.

Smoking also adds some sort of intimacy that many rabbonom have ruled against, hence the reason frum women tend not to smoke, while smoking is rampant in the yeshiva world. We could probably use many of the smoking p’sak’s with regards to marijuana and as far as I know it hasn’t been banned because that would mean that many gedolei hador did something that was assur. Of course, I’m not sure why it hasn’t banned, for we could just use the “it was a different time” excuse, in the same vein as to why no one ate glatt meat back in the day.

The other issue you may run across is of pure hashkafa, the chances of finding an erhliche, frum girl, who smokes with guys on dates is probably impossible. Chances are, the 420 girl of your dreams is probably a baalas teshuva or giores and everyone knows that girls like that are on a weaker madreiga and more apt to slip in their avodas Hashem. You may think your yetzer is strong now, but when some stoner girl who just got off the boat from Jewel or Niveh tries to brush away your black hat so she “can see your beautiful eyes better” you’ll find out just how hard it is to be kovesh your yetzer.

Can any of the readers better answer this question?

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{ 36 comments… add one }
  • yankelyoffen May 7, 2013, 8:58 AM

    In all seriousness, 420 friendly frum girls where are you? I know you’re out there somewhere. Stop hiding. Lets get high, listen Carlebach or Blink, talk about Chassidus and road trips and make little frum stoner babies.

    • mzl May 8, 2013, 10:55 PM

      omg…i think we might be soulmates <3 i've been looking everywhere for my psychedelic prince!

      • Anonymous May 9, 2013, 6:56 PM

        Baalat teshuvah detected. Have fun going off the shomer negiah derech.

    • Anonymous May 12, 2013, 3:29 PM

      I’m cool with all of the above except the stoner baby thing… If there is a problem with the baby and they test positive for pot, you can say goodbye to baby, hello to child services.

      My child will however know the lyrics to all the songs off Enema of the State by the age of 5.

  • Dan May 7, 2013, 9:00 AM

    Hesh, I can’t believe you missed the most important part of the shaila.

    Hot boxing is assur anyway, because it is required that you do all of the metzitza b’peh.

  • rob May 7, 2013, 9:57 AM

    I thought hot-boxing was closing the windows and doors to force your companions to smell your farts

    • the real ms May 10, 2013, 1:39 AM


  • Zev Nadler May 7, 2013, 10:05 AM

    Dear Heshy,

    I once heard over a maiseh about an illicit relationship between a litvisher brochure and a satmerer maidel’eh. Apparently, what could have been a modest and innocent date turned into smokey sex, when the maiden put her finger on his carburetor whle he was holding his bong,

    The next thing you know, they were shot-gunning which is TOTALLY oser and certainly not considered a chumrah by ANY halachic authority since it draws near to the bochur, the quivering lips of his NOT YET designated beshert.

    That kind’a stuff can make your shviger shiver πŸ˜‰

  • BZ May 7, 2013, 10:40 AM

    The fear of man situation underlies all Yichud related halachos anyway. It’s nothing new.

  • Restrictions bring freedom my arse May 7, 2013, 10:51 AM

    Question, does a person have any place in Orthodox Judiasm if they think the Torah is a mixture of various authors who had good advice at times on how to live? Reform jokes aside

    • Dan May 7, 2013, 1:30 PM

      should be at home in chovevei. You’ll have to make your own determination about their orthodoxy though.

    • the real ms May 10, 2013, 1:43 AM

      I think so. The Torah is one long discussion throughout the ages with many contributors in each generation – Moshe, yehoshua, zekeinim, neviim, anshei keneses hagadola, tannaim, amoraim, geonim, rishonim, achronim, all contributed and contribute to the body of Torah.
      I think that is a pretty orthodox view.

      • Anonymous May 10, 2013, 10:39 AM

        Is it possible to have a husband who is not frum and a wife and children who stay frum? Like what do you do if one spouse goes OTD?

        • anon May 13, 2013, 2:10 PM

          Yes. I know a family who lived like that and all the kids, now married adults, are frum Jews. I’ve seen it the other way around too, (frum father, not frum mother) but with mixed results for the kids.

          I think those instances are rare. More than likely, a spouse going OTD will end in divorce. (Probably depends upon how far the OTD spouse wants to take it home. Treif the kitchen? deal killer. Stop going to mikvah? deal killer. etc)

    • Rob May 10, 2013, 7:10 AM

      Sure there’s a place. You are entitled to think such things. Just keep your thoughts to yourself so that you don’t undermine the emunah of other Orthodox Jews with your verbalized opinions.

      But Groucho Marx once said that he would would never join any club that would have him as a member. So why go to an Orthodox shul if you don’t believe? You can personally keep the same mitzvot, halakhot, and minhagim anywhere.

      • Restrictions bring freedom my arse May 10, 2013, 10:08 AM

        True but its complicated when you have a family who wants to be frum.

        • Rob May 12, 2013, 6:19 PM

          As I would say about WoW as well: When In Rome…

  • I know where youll find the right one May 7, 2013, 11:23 AM

    Head to Boulder, CO. Under Rabbi Schechter- the neohasidism sound like what youre looking for

  • A. Nuran May 7, 2013, 12:32 PM

    If the smoke is thick enough it’s considered to be a mechitza

  • Sarah May 7, 2013, 3:15 PM

    Pot is pretty acceptable at the Moshav, too — my friend once visited and was offered some.

    On a more serious note, I actually think cars being considered yichud makes sense, not because “things could happen,” but because it changes the situation between two people to one of more intimacy, and that could affect those people’s feelings for each other.

  • Telz Angel May 8, 2013, 8:30 AM

    In the Modern Orthodox world in the midwest, Stoners are people who went to Camp Stone.

    In the Yeshivish world, Stoners are people who insist on renaming the chumash, authored by Moshe rabennu — and calling it the Stone Edition Artscroll. As if Irving Stone wrote the book.

    In Telz, many years ago, Stoners were people who followed Rabbi Gifter’s vision of creating Kiryat Telz Stone.

    • Alter Cocker May 8, 2013, 1:25 PM

      Ah, so two of them involve Irving Stone.

  • Israelit May 8, 2013, 8:39 AM

    Go to n-na-nach-nachlaot if you want frum stoner girls (or guys) for that matter. They’re there by the hundreds and always looking for a shidduch.

  • Anonymous May 8, 2013, 11:25 AM

    The person I’m currently attempting to court does smoke (but she’s no stoner). However, she is a baalat teshuvah. I can’t complain though, I’m a ba’al teshuvah too.

  • Shlumpy May 8, 2013, 11:41 PM

    Reb moshe clearly paskens marijana is assur

    • A. Nuran May 8, 2013, 11:51 PM

      I’m curious. On what grounds did he reach this decision?

      • Stuck in the 1930's May 9, 2013, 5:15 AM

        It was likely the rabbis always say no clause.

      • Dan May 9, 2013, 5:34 AM

        I’m guessing on the shlumpy is making stuff up line of thought.

      • the real ms May 10, 2013, 1:45 AM

        I never read it inside but I was told he said it is a problem of kibood av veaim.

      • Crowin' Cock May 10, 2013, 9:24 AM

        R. Moshe paskened the issur based on 3 factors if I remember correctly (2 of which are probably no longer applicable):

        1) Back in his day, people put themselves in danger in order to buy. Remember those dealer dens in Brooklyn?

        2) Back in his day, people thought it hazardous to your health (probably still bad for the lungs, especially for heavy smokers using unfiltered joints).

        3) Back in his day, it would cause grief to most smokers frum Jewish parents if they found out, so issue of disrespecting your parents.

    • Telz Angel May 10, 2013, 10:03 AM

      Rabbi Louis Jacobs also paskened that way in his book “What Does Judaism Say About…” However, anyone orthodox who reads a Louis Jacobs book in public would be put in cherem, so you’d never know about this.

  • Anonymous May 9, 2013, 6:58 PM

    We should make a stoner congregation where we have THC infused liquor (fermented with stems) for l’chaims. We’ll be high in minutes.

  • Anonymous May 9, 2013, 7:00 PM

    Dear heshy, this is the best post that you have written in a long time. I laughed and laughed. Newly excited, I keep checking back for more fresh humor, but no new posts are up. I guess you shot your wad on this one, and like many old married men, you now need time to recover. It happens to every guy, eventually. I understand. I’ll keep waiting…

    • Anonymous May 9, 2013, 11:07 PM

      He’s on a rd trip actually

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