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Shabbat shalom vs. Good Shabbos

I like to consider myself a Jewish profiler. I remember when everyone was going nuts over racial profiling in airports. I used to do a little profiling of my own – on the streets of my Jewish community every Saturday morning.

I am sure there was a simpler time in the Orthodox community, a time when there was togetherness among Jews and everyone was just trying to earn enough rubles to put some bread on the table, but those times are gone and they have been replaced with an extreme social orthodoxy that likes to judge you right down to how you greet people in the street on Shabbos morning, or shall we say Shabbat.

In general - Sephardim, who always say Shabbat, are excluded - someone who says Shabbat instead of Shabbos is viewed as less religious by those in the more black and white communities. I’m sure it has something to do with trying to be more aligned with Israel by using the modern Hebraic tuf pronunciation instead of the shtetl Suf, but I doubt that most people are thinking so deeply on the matter. I can only say how the snap judgements are made amongst my brethren.

Although I grew up modern orthodox, we always said Good Shabbos, only once I hit yeshiva and realized that orthodoxy was a caste system did I start to make exceptions and learn the rules of the game.

Generally I wish good shabbos to any male wearing a black velvet yarmulke, black hat or furry hat. Generally I wish shabbat shalom to those in knitted or crocheted yarmulkes, baseball hats, or non-black hat fedora style hats. Unfortunately it can get somewhat complex when dealing with the middle of the road yarmulkes like suede and black knitted which may be worn by very religious or non-religious Jews. Generally I wish those who I don’t know where they fall a shabbat shalom, because it’s pretty safe.

I have a feeling that most aren’t profiling, they are sticking with their way of doing it, but for some reason I always feel like making people comfortable and there’s a certain comfort in know that some of your own kind are walking the streets with you, in the same way spotting someone else not wearing a white shirt in a see of white and black can make you feel.

{ 142 comments… add one }
  • Dan March 25, 2012, 3:24 PM

    I say “Good Shabbos” (in english, not the yiddish “gut”) to anyone unless they are clearly not frum.

    I am not offended when someone tells me shabbat shalom, or whatever, and I presume nobody is offended with my good shabbos. And if they are, then Bleep them, I hope they are offended.

    • Alter Cocker March 26, 2012, 3:52 PM

      how can you hope they are offended when you just said they are?

    • Dar hosanna February 11, 2017, 12:47 PM

      Todah Rabbah for your honesty -why appease a snob no matter their religion.I know this is 5 years old but why would one say shabbos shalome?And why only to men? Is that only the Hasidics? Because where I grew up the Jewish community were regular&ate at the restaurant on Christmas day when Christian faith celebrating Christmas.And this was in Fredrick md and we greeted each orther as where Hasidics don’t acknowledge woman. They seem to barely have enough respect to walk with them.nyc is a different ball game as I am Jewish but my white on white single mom moved us to a Jewish community but it was a regular community and they all watched me.She was 16 when she got pregnant and I was that neighbourhood kid that got raised by the village.She knew what she was doing and it was a very unselfish because she got used by a jew schister and she was young a girl&kicked out by her klan father(which by the way-jews make up 30%of klansman. They usually didn’t know they were Jewish or passed &did it for survival skills)getting back to the picture,for someone so young new raising me in the Jewish community was a survival technique and she knew what the all white Ga community would do &they did.I was locked up in a closet at 7 by 3 neighborhood girls who tied me up with a white noose rope and had sand crabs thrown on me in a dark closet and the nosy neighborhood lady who ppl respected but that’s what they called her but she paid attention and I became her friend. Now I am not looking for pity but I wanted to emphasize on the Jewish community.I would go to temple on Saturday. Why do we call it temple and new yorkers say shul?I get so confuse.It seems simple enough to be a regular jew but I would spend my summers at a lake house with my friend Eli &half of the jew hood and I turned 7 and my mom left the area&I was never the same.I sat in Christian churches and I always felt like an outsider looking in.People rolling around on the floor from the holy ghost and it scared me at 8 and from that moment on I believed white people were different and my distinction between the two were-if a man cried and he was Jewish it was o.k. because to me I always saw eli’s dad cry at movies and I never forgot mr.cohn because he was a gentle soul.But if a white man cried he was weak.It was the environment and I never saw a white man cry as a kid and to me they seemed mean but also I favored the Jewish community over the white community till new york,here the Jewish community are not nice and proud.I’m in crown heights Brooklyn NYC and I have found 2 Hasidics who were friendly and they always rush and the woman at Atlantic terminal target wear stripe shirts &blk skirts and they run&shop and they wont allow you to help them.I decided one day even if they showed angst twords me that I would not twords them and I tried understanding them.I notice between the orthodox Pentecostal primitive church folk were not too much difference between the two religions right down to how they dressed &acted and I did research and in 1950 this Christian faith started getting new members from the camps when people were moving to nyc,Baltimore and out west and the south and they changed their names and they worshipped in a Christian church.So there was a crossover and some did not tell their children,after escaping the horrible conditions of their own homeland and coming to America, especially white people America like w.va in the 50ish era and they had to have ptsd and I think of how they must have felt to give up their religion to worship Jesus Christ but apparently it’s a sacrifice they felt comfortable with.so when I say 30%of jews make up the klan it’s because they were never told about their parents horror &they fit in the best they could.Also alot of jews for Jesus were some paying homage to the history of their parents after they found out the truth when the parents died and was left journal’s detailing their parents horror and in the 70’S in the hills jews for jesus was a big thing as told to me by my great w.va step father.Not all but I didn’t learn about my true history till I was in my 40’s.Well I’m sorry for my long question and history lesson.I’m not good at staying on point but I did want to add,if you talk to the Hasidics most,they will converse back which begs the question,am I wrong on all accounts and some Hasidics are &can be racist too? Of course but more ignorant,as humans as a whole we are most comfortable around our clans and they dont know what to expect when a white person is talking to them I know and have seen the little Hasidic kids being bullied by black kids even throwing a bomb on the bus,a year ago and I was steaming mad because of my being bullied.I wanted to die at 10 because I couldn’t take being slapped by a19 year old guy because I was walking through peter pan park and adults I called them,called me over and he slapped my glasses off my face and called me kike and orther names and they all laughed so hard.I got so mad because my mom who was in a depression her whole life never took it serious so I caught the house on fire but it was put out and I told the truth to only 1 person and that was the fire chief.After questioning me for hours and gentle they were.I just kept saying it was on fire when I walked by.But finally the chief took me by my self and I started crying and he said can you tell me about the fire and I said yes but could he please keep it from my mom and he saw what life was life as I look back. He asked me how I got the swelling face and I told him and about the closet to,he told my mom I was playing with a curling iron and he felt no need to tell my mom what I really did and he said he knew the gang who hung at the park and his brother was a police officer and I didn’t have to worry.I never had problems with the gang again but I saw his brother on such a regular basis I became his baby sitter 4 years later and the family invited me to church and I went just to get away from the house.But I got lucky and or blessed but moving forward I wanted those black girls to pay for that horrific hate crime and I have never been able to find out. It just happened a year ago.A bomb on the bus,not a threat.This was not a slap on the wrist crime.I’m very sorry as I have adhd and I go off base & I am sorry but please answer my one question

  • Jordan March 25, 2012, 4:17 PM

    Interesting. I changed my pronunciation after becoming chozer bitshuva originally through an ashkenazi organisation. I was taught ashkenazi shtetl pronunciation and quickly realised that I did not want my language to be associated with those who speak like this.

    I speak, daven and learn with modern Hebrew pronunciation and believe the way of unity for the Jews today is to speak the language of our homeland, the Land of Israel, the inhabitants of which (in the majority) speak with Sephardi pronunciation.

    I am Chabad. I associate very much with Sephardi and Chabad style of being close to H”. I do not like the chassidic and polish pronunciations of things – I mean is that even Hebrew? “Avoisaini” “Elokeini”. What is with that? The reluctance to any sort of accommodation for the sake of being a nation with a common language and land is a big problem. The solution I feel is mandatory education across the board in Israel of at least 5 hours a week “Social Studies” or similar where all kids learn basic manners and derech eretz and what it means to be Jewish and particularly a Jew living in Israel.

    Mashiach now.

    • Dan March 25, 2012, 4:33 PM

      “ashkenazi shtetl pronunciation”

      This may possibly be the stupidest thing I have ever seen in print.

      • Meir March 25, 2012, 4:46 PM

        I mean Ashkenazim traditionally pronounced like that even in the big cities of Warsaw, Vilna, Krakow, Budapest, Vienna etc. didn’t they?

        • Anonymous March 25, 2012, 8:31 PM


      • Meshugah March 26, 2012, 6:30 AM

        But’s it’s true though. A lot of the Haredim in Israel are stuck in the pail(sic), pun intended.

        • Dan March 26, 2012, 7:26 AM

          Ok, so you think they are still living a lifestyle which was suited to the shtetl but not anymore. Perhaps you are correct, and perhaps not. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PRONUNCIATION of words! Surely you don’t think that adapting to 2012 includes changing the pronunciation of words.

          In any event, you are wholly ignorant. The haredim of Israel trace their ideology to the old yishuv of jerusalem, not to europe. The leaders of the community after WWII were the leaders who had been there already, and the refugees assimilated largely into that community.

          That is why they are all into studying torah for their entire life, while the chassidic counterparts in america are all working blue collar jobs after a year or two of marriage.

          • Meshugah March 26, 2012, 7:41 AM

            Where were the Haredim before they were at the Old Yishuv?

            Another question… did they skip the part in the Pirkei Avot about combining Torah study with an occupation? Or did they not get to that part yet?

            • Dan March 26, 2012, 9:43 AM

              1. Where were they before? Some were in the old yishuv, and some were refugees from europe. As I noted. And as I noted, they assimilated into the community of the old yishuv, which is why they took its practices. What are you driving at?

              2. Did they skip it? And you, did you skip it? I’m assuming that you spend half your day learning, correct?
              That mishna is one proof. Of course, you need to read the commentaries there to translate “derech eretz” which means “way of the land”, and usually refers to manners.
              And if they are against the mishna, so be it. They have rabbis who are experts on the torah, and are well qualified to tell them how to keep the torah. I’d ask my rabbi before I asked some dude on the internet.

              • Meshugah March 26, 2012, 12:20 PM

                My thinking is their mispronuncation of the tav stems from Yiddish used in the shtetl. In German things plural often end in s and in Hebrew things in the feminine end in ot so they just made it os.

                No need to be fatuous. You seemed to know about the Ashkenazi folsk in Israel. Do they still use Ashkenazi pronunciation in colloquial speech?

                • Dan March 26, 2012, 1:04 PM

                  1. That is a theory. Some historians may have other theories, but they generally are reading the same rabbinic literature that I am.

                  2. They speak hebrew in normal speech like other israelis, with a “taf”. they speak their “old way” in learning and davening.

                • Yochanan March 26, 2012, 3:13 PM

                  In the history of languages, it is very common for a th, as in think, to become a t, as in Tom or an s, as in Sam.

                  Originally it was th (without a dagesh). Yemenites kept this pronunciation. Sfardim changed this to a t. Ashkenazim changed it to an s.

                  Interestingly when many native Hebrew speakers try to say th, they say s.

                  • Nesya March 27, 2012, 10:19 AM

                    Actually I find most Israelis will say “z” or “d” instead of a “th”.

                    • Yochanan March 27, 2012, 10:56 AM

                      Well it depends on what the English word is.

                      Th in “tooth” is voiceless. Therefore it will change to an s or t (both voiceless) by many non-native speakers (who don’t have that sound in their native language).

                      Th in “this” is voiced. Therefore it will change to an z or d (both voiced) by many non-native speakers (who don’t have that sound in their native language).

          • Charnie March 28, 2012, 6:49 PM

            A lot of the old Yishuv traces its roots back to the Vilna Gaon, who sent them to Yerushalyim. I could be wrong, but wouldn’t the Gra have said “Gut Shabbos”?

            • Wayne Baumann June 27, 2014, 11:58 AM

              Not for nothing, is not Hebrew the source of our language in ages past? Who would moses, in blessed memory, understand more accurately and clearly if we spoke with him today?

    • Yochanan March 25, 2012, 5:29 PM

      For the last time, Modern Israeli pronunciation is not Sefardi. It is the most European sounding of all Semitic languages.

      • Michaltastik March 26, 2012, 6:45 AM

        IDK about all you but I always thought modern Hebrew seemed to have a strongish French influence, except for the CH letter which obviously sounds semitic. My Muslim friend knows that sound, too.

    • Dovid March 26, 2012, 5:04 PM

      On the contrary Jordan, the ongoing destruction of our Ashkenazi (and Yiddish) Jewish culture is a huge tragedy. Across the religious spectrum everyone is on the bandwagon to daven with fake Israeli accents, eat falafel and wear stupid Tzhal yarmulkes. That’s supposed to be better?

      People who associate Ashkenazi pronunciation with some negative shtetl stereotype of the weak sniveling Jew are basically accepting the antisemitic stereotypes of those who tried to destroy us.

      • Meshugah March 27, 2012, 6:50 AM

        I think the consternation stems from the sense of entitlement Ashkenazim, particularly Ashkenazi Haredim have. Like Jordan said, he doesn’t want to be associated with people who speak that way and neither do I. Speaking modern Hebrew (which is to some degree Sephardic) helps bridge the divide between Diaspora and Israeli Jews.

        No doubt, there is a rich culture of European Jews with Yiddish literature and theater. But it’s time to get with the times. They’d also do us a big favor not wearing Polish winter clothing in the Israeli summer smelling up the whole place.

        • Yochanan March 27, 2012, 10:59 AM

          I’m not sure about Israel, but in the US you should see how much they crank up in AC in Chasidishe places in the summer. Living in denial, if you ask me.

        • Pamela November 8, 2013, 1:00 PM

          As a non-religious daughter of a Jewish mother whose family came to the US from Russia and Poland via Canada, this is really insulting. No matter what brand of origin a Jew is, when I encounter one, I consider them all my mishpokah. I am shocked by this attitude.

    • A. Nuran August 8, 2013, 11:09 PM

      And we sneer at the Hindus for their caste system…

  • Shlomo March 25, 2012, 5:48 PM

    Just ask Congregation Darchei Noam of Oceanside. If you don’t have an MD or went to Yeshiva – they want nothing to do with you. Shabbat Shalom or Good Shabbos makes no difference.

    • Outskirt March 25, 2012, 5:54 PM

      The Young Israel of Oceanside is the same way. If you are not a doctor, you’d might as well be an untouchable.

      • Moty March 25, 2012, 7:06 PM

        Shlomo, I don’t know whether this is actually true or not, but if it is, this saddens me greatly. My great grandfather started that shul in his basement many years ago and he was a man who loved all Jews, regardless of their frumkeit or status.

        • Outskirt March 25, 2012, 7:14 PM

          The community has changed quite a bit since the days of your great-grandfather. They ignore their “unglamorous” neighbors, no matter how nice/interesting/intelligent/nonjudgmental/wonderful they may be.

      • Telz Angel March 25, 2012, 9:22 PM

        So it is Shabbat across Oceanside or Shabbos across Oceanside? You know, when a bunch of shuls get together every year and pretend there is achdus.

    • Michaltastik March 26, 2012, 6:51 AM

      I find that if you’re modern Orthodox you’re a piece a crap if you don’t have a fancy job. If you’re Yeshivish/Chasidic, you’re a piece of crap unless you have yichus, guys might be forgiven if they are BT raised with enough affiliation that their Hebrew is fine and they become a rabbi, after all, in some places, 95% of the guys have smicha.

    • Avrumy March 26, 2012, 10:19 AM

      OCEANSIDE???? Who the heck is Oceanside to be snooty? They are not Woodmere and never will be Woodmere!!!

      • dovi October 11, 2013, 3:56 AM

        at last, some real humor … btw – good Shabbos…

  • Moty March 25, 2012, 7:19 PM

    I’m a Happy Shabbos guy myself.

  • AH March 25, 2012, 7:35 PM

    Much like Dan I say “Good Shabbos.” You know why? Because I’m American!

  • Samael March 25, 2012, 8:43 PM

    For my part, I say “good shabbos,” “gut shabbos,” or “shabbat shalom” depending on what I feel like at the moment I say it. Sometimes just to be a contrarian I’ll say the opposite of what I believe people expect, but hey, I could have gotten it wrong.

  • Chaya March 25, 2012, 9:04 PM

    It can also be a generational thing.

    My mother says Gut Shabbos. She isn’t remotely frum. Her grandparents, though, spoke Yiddish, and her parents sent her to Jewish programs run by a pro-Communist Jewish organization that wanted to maintain Jewish culture but didn’t teach Hebrew because it wasn’t interested in either religious texts or Israel.

  • OfftheDwannaB March 25, 2012, 9:34 PM

    I think that saying things to random Jews on shabbos is assur. I like to pretend they don’t exist. No eye contact if possible. And forget about shaking hands. What if they’re gay and I’m causing them to be nichshal? Better not to have any contact with anyone ever.

  • danielGA March 25, 2012, 10:34 PM

    nahh you gotta say gut shabboysse with the tof and the oy because that’s what moses said. it’s in the torah, if you take all of the last letters of the parshot and put them backwards it spells “gut shabboysse” and then it says that those who don’t say it like that are liberal feminist goyim apikorsusdik shegetzim who are all headed straight to gehennom for a 13 month special trip reserved for the worst of the goyim!

    i know it because yehuda levin told me.

    • Michaltastik March 26, 2012, 7:06 AM

      Dontcha mean it’s in the TOY-Rah, not in the Torah?

      • Yochanan March 26, 2012, 9:34 AM

        Of course. The yod is invisible.

  • Meshugah March 26, 2012, 7:38 AM

    Isn’t there something in either Joshua or Judges about one of the tribes not pronouncing the shin as “shin” and only as “sin” and one of the other tribes was having a feud with them who said shin as both “sin” and “shin.” So the tribe that said shin both ways would as a test ask people to say “shibolet” (I think it means grain) and if they said it “sibolet” then off with their heads.

    If anyone could elaborate on that it would be appreciated.

    I’ve been accustomed to saying “Shabbat Shalom.” My poking fun at the Ashkenazi pronunciation is well-intended, this is frum satire after all right? I do have some degree consternation with the frum/Ashkenazi community where I live because they hold a monoply on kashrut and at times have been downright nasty. So perhaps that explains my adherence to Sephardic pronunciation and minhag.

  • Yochanan March 26, 2012, 9:37 AM

    What about those who say “Shabbat Shalom Umvorakh” or answer “Umvorakh” to another’s “Shabbat Shalom”?

    Further, most of the Modox Ashkenazi people I’ve met say “Good Shabbos”. If they say “Shabbat Shalom”, they either lived in Israel for a quite some time, or are planning on making ‘Aliya.

  • Stan March 26, 2012, 5:45 PM

    I believe modern Hebrew was advanced as a means to achieve achdut or unity. Unfortunately, we have not achieved that to this point. I like Shabbat Shalom, insofar as both words are actually Hebrew as opposed to a German word or an English word with roots in German. I do pronounce the tuf as a T, once again because that is the modern Hebrew convention. As I walk to my minyan and back home (3 miles each way) each Shabbat and Yom Tov I encounter dozens of fellow Jews who I greet in that manner. Some reply in the Ashkenaz manner. Unfortunately, others do not reply even acknowledge me.

    I am not surprised that we are still in Galut.

  • Isak March 27, 2012, 4:05 AM

    Good Sabbath!

  • Viva March 27, 2012, 6:46 AM

    Then you get the crazy BT [read: me] that gets into that awkward situation and says “SHABBOS SHALOM!”

  • Cheryl March 27, 2012, 8:27 AM

    I must admit that I experienced a bit of confusion when I first read the words, “Mishloat Manot” in our local Chabad newsletter. I had been raised hearing it called, “Shalach Munis,” and honestly expected that with Chabad, it would be the same. And “Gut Shabbos” was always a given. Shabbat Shalom seems more widely used in more contemporary circles, but I find it really lacks something. I guess it’s whatever one is comfortable with.

  • Anonymous March 28, 2012, 7:05 AM

    Heh, I gotta say nothing like this has ever crossed my mind… I just say “good Shabbos!” … or Shabbat Shalom. However the mood strikes me.

    Shalom y’all!

  • Pesach March 17, 2013, 9:54 AM

    Could we say it’s a Gud Shabbos if people don’t know how to greet anymore? What do we expect to receive if not a Shabbat Shalom?

    This following exchange has happened to me a couple times:
    “Gud Shabbos”
    “How do you know?”
    “How do you know? You said it’s a good Shabbos. How do you know?”
    “Oh! It was a blessing not a statement. May you have a good Shabbos”
    “Ahhh” (click)

    Ever happened to you?

  • Yerachmiel Bruchya haLevi August 8, 2013, 9:07 PM

    When you start pronouncing the THOF correctly (Shabbath Shalom) and the Jimmel (Gimel with a Dagesh) we can speak of “correct Pronounciation”.

    Each of the twelve shvatim (tribes) had their own “accent” as well as their own “version” of the spoken and written language. Look at some discussions in Gemorah of whether certain words, pronounced by a person from a certain city or area, was OK (as opposed to same pronunciation from somewhere else)

    I know that when I got married, I said “Mikudeth Lee” and raised a bunch of eyebrows (in Crown Heights); after which I put on a talis Gadol (with brucha) and covered first myself then both of us!!

    • Alter Cocker August 8, 2013, 9:53 PM

      Your mistake was getting married in Crown Heights.

  • Anonymous August 10, 2013, 5:10 PM

    I was raised Ashkenazi and married into a Sephardic Israeli family. My brother in law practically throws a fit when I wish him a Gut Shabbos…. he says “No, the CORRECT way is shabbat shalom…” Hahaha !!

  • Paul October 11, 2013, 1:59 AM


    Jus wanted to check the spelling on Shabbos and bumped into your site, Thank you for helping me understand the difference between both Greeting’s, and the spelling of Shabbos.

    NZ :))

  • shmuel October 11, 2013, 8:31 AM

    Surely neither “gut shabbes” nor “shabbat shalom” are “correct”, but rather they are dialects of the same.
    Akin to the “tomaaato-tomayto” arguement or “pavement” vs. “sidewalk” – these are identifying ways for various groupings. Thus it would be incorrect for a Brit to say sidewalk unless he lived amongst Americans.
    So in Kiryas Yoel gut shabbes is the right call, whereas in other areas any or all might go.

    As for pronunciation – tav (why taf? written ?? in Hebrew) for example is only guessable how King David might have pronounced it. An educated guess would involve looking at the Yemenites as they probably have the longest existing chain of tradition, or the Arabs who preserved their language over the generations.
    Both have T and TH (like baTH) but not S. The S seems to be a late European dialect for this letter.
    Likewise Gimmel – G or a gutteral R without a daggesh (Yemen) or J (Arabic).
    Daleth – D or TH (like THen) without a daggesh (hence one can be “maarich” on the daleth of ??? in the shama, echaththth).
    As for samech I once heard a theory that the correct way of pronouncing it is like the Welsh “Ll” – THL with the TH done with the tongue at the side of the mouth!

    But much much more important than T or S etc is the accentuating of words correctly. For some reason ashkenazim insist on pronouncing most words deliberately wrong (yeSHivah instead of yeshiVAH, KOsher instead of koSHER, SHAbbes instead of shabbES/shabbAT, haKODesh BARuch instead of hakoDOSH baRUCH, and hundreds of others). How do we know what’s the right way? From the ta’amei mikra (nigun-trop) of the Torah which accentuates the right syllable.
    Usually it might not matter to the meaning, with one notable exception – the use of the vav that changes past to future:
    ????? – aHAVti = I loved, but ?????? – v’aHAVti and I loved whereas v’ahavTI means and I WILL love.
    In the shma there are many examples ????? ????? ????? ????? – if one misaccentuates these words he probably does not fulfil the mitzvah of shma as he changes the meaning (I have given rain instead of I will give rain), thus distorting God’s promises completely!

  • shmuel October 11, 2013, 8:37 AM

    Sorry, I realise that the blog doesn’t support Hebrew characters which all appear as ???
    I hope the gist is understood.
    The letter Tav is written Tav vav in Hebrew so no reason to call it “taf”.

  • Ezra November 22, 2013, 2:41 AM

    A similiar issue is found amongst various Islamic communities throughout the world who have different traditions of pronouncing Arabic in their prayers.

  • Kim December 17, 2013, 4:31 PM

    Should it matter? Just like we have the Queens English and American English, they all say the same thing, just in a different way. Why should anyone be offend how someone wished them a peaceful Sabbath is said. If you ask me, there are more important things to worry about with regards to our people.

  • Wayne Baumann June 27, 2014, 12:02 PM

    What is proper speech and pronunciation by definition? Is not Hebrew the source of our language in ages past? Who would Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Isacher, Zebulum, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manesseh, Noah, Moses, in blessed memory, understand more accurately and clearly if we spoke with them today?

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