It usually starts like this: You run around Friday afternoon trying to fit in all the important stuff you need to do before shabbos, like buy beer, go to the library, and pick up the cleaners. You get home with an hour and a half left to 1) grab a piece of kugel, 2) check out the new simpsons, 3) take a shower, 4) shave, 5) get dressed, 6) have a last minute cigarette, and head off to shul, the time carefully approximated in your head. You’re on schedule, taking your shower, when suddenly you’re blindsided.
You hear the pipes going a split second before it happens, your brain barely has enough time to register an attack, and suddenly the water changes to freezing rain. You jump out of the way and try to make it hotter, but you go a micron too far, and now it’s a lava storm. You just slap the faucet off as fast as you can, and somewhere in the back of your mind, a deep voice goes “Ding! Shower battle engaged.”
The best way to handle this is shock and awe. You put your soap on and turn the dial to super hot without getting in. You wait two seconds for the other shower warrior to turn his all the way up, and then spin yours back to normal. Now he turns off his flamethrower water and you get to go in as long as you can. Usually this is 7.3 seconds, or the part where you’re washing a very sensitive area. Shower battle resumes and your balls bunch up into your stomach as the water hits you like some kind of Arctic waterfall.
You try to be tough and just go in, but your nerves are starting to shut down, and you know it’s just not worth it. You take a breather and enter once more for close combat. You can’t think. You must rely on instinct, reacting to each minute change in temperature. You hear the pressure getting lower, and instinctively move the faucet a bit colder. Your efforts are rewarded as you dodge the near-certain face melting blast, keeping the temperature steady.
Your right hand adjusting the dial, your left checking for soapy areas, you have this one in the bag. The pipes make more noise. Victory at last! But wait- the water just went fires of Mt. Doom again. How the-? And then, all at once, you remember the third shower, and a red light goes on in your mind, and the deep voice says, “MORTAL SHOWER COMBAT!!!”
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{ 47 comments… read them below or add one }
Just shower ON shabbos. Not such a big deal… what’re you gonna do? wring out your towel when you’re done?
The water heater might turn on causing a flame (gas) or Bronze Age abstraction of what a flame might be (electric)
Yeah. Or it might do the bronze age abstraction of what cooking is. Like, you know, heating up water from 70 degrees to 140 degrees.
See below. Even a superstitious type such as yourself isn’t permitted to snuff out the Sun one day a week. Besides, you couldn’t have your chulent fresh from the crockpot if you were intellectually consistent. Even the “kosher” ones turn the electricity on and off repeatedly.
It took me a minute to get that last part… but nice! I never thought of that.
Oh, but wait, it’s just like shabbos timers, isn’t it?
1. You were saying it about an electric one.
2. I am being consistent. You just have no idea what you are talking about, because you don’t know any halacha. That is fine, you never studied it, while I spent 10 years doing nothing else. So it can be expected that I know more than you, but you should realize that.
The potential problem with the hot water heater is that your own actions, done on shabbos, are causing it to turn on. This brings up questions of what degree of separation is allowed on shabbos when causing actions, and how your intent matters. Probably, in this case if you don’t need the water to stay hot, then it would be ok.
Dan for the record, I spent well more than 10 years studying women, and I have no idea what I’m talking about when I talk about them.
Forgive us all for our ignorance.
So tell us about psik reisha and melichet machshevet….
I absolutely do know what I’m talking about when it comes to the real, verifiable phenominological world. I’ll admit that when it comes to sophistry, obedience, pilpul and blindness you are vastly superior.
When you use a crockpot you are turning electricity on and off repeatedly. No ifs ands or buts. Open the lid? Close the lid? Your actions cause the result.
Now, I’ll grant that you and the rabbis are ignorant of these things. And I’ll grant that you aren’t actually causing a fire or a thing which produces light like a fire even though you don’t believe it. But you are causing repeated opening and closing of a circuit no matter how many of your favorite witch doctors claim otherwise.
Sorry, but the world doesn’t re-arrange itself to suit your superstitions.
You do realize how it undermines everything else you say, when you insist on making such ridiculous and ignorant statements.
1. Rav Moshe used to speak to engineers all the time before he paskined on shailos that involved technology.
2. Your insistence that using a crockpot causes melacha is ridiculous. You are making innumerable ignorant errors; most significant that the action we do when turning on the crock pot IS NOT ON SHABBOS.
Frankly, you sound like someone insisting that there is no difference between a factory dumping waste down the sewer and throwing it off a boat, without bothering to read the Clean Water Act which specifies that you only need a permit if you pollute through a conveyance like a pipe.
Short version: Nuran is an ignorant moron
It’s quite interesting how you are prepared to write polemics about the melachot, but care not a jot for the lashon hora you are uttering.
1. Have I ever claimed to care about halacha on this site? I only claimed to know a lot of halacha.
2. I have learned sefer chofetz chaim at least 6 or 8 times. I don’t think this is lashon hara. We can discuss it if you want, but do you know enough about the halachos to discuss it?
It’s not interesting at all. You may have noticed people on blogs generally use screen names, rendering us all anonymous.
Shocking as it is, most readers of blogs don’t actually know who someone is, just because they’re identified as “Telz Angel”, “Dan” or “Carmel Tziona”.
Besides, stating that someone has “superior” skills of “sophistry, obedience, pilpul and blindness” is no less insulting than calling them an ignorant moron; it’s just very slightly more subtle—just as it subtly equates obedience & pilpul with blindness & sophistry.
Your ignoring the original, provoking statement to comment on the reaction to it reflects your bias.
You know, I really hate it when people just quote what the rabbinic opinions are on electricity so that it can be forbidden without actually understanding all the inherent melachot.
There’s three basic supposed problems with electrical appliances: boneh (with regards to circuits), molid, and makeh b’patish. All three problems do not apply.
Boneh – the argument that the circuit has been completed when it is closed – does not apply to objects which are intended to be “created” and “destroyed” as part of their normal operation, i.e. objects where a temporary nature is by design. It is not assur to open and close a door on Shabbat, even though doing so is an act of “creation” either from the standpoint of physicality (“creating” a wall) or from a social standpoint (“creating” privacy), because doors were designed from day one to be opened and closed. This is completely different from the intended prohibition, i.e. laying bricks, because laying these bricks will be permanent *by design*.
Molid (creating something new) only applies to something whose state would be permanent after the act of creation. The example usually given, molid reicha – the prohibition against introducing a scent into a garment on Shabbat – does not apply because molid reicha has the garment and its scent exist on their own, without interference, after the person stops scenting the fabric. But electric appliances don’t work this way – if the introduction of electricity to the appliance creates a new appliance, then it’s only doing so as long as electricity is continually being applied. Imagine if you were creating the electricity through a hand crank – when you’re cranking, the appliance works; when you’re not cranking, the appliance immediately shuts off. Certainly the mere act of flipping the switch does not result in molid (since the appliance remains the same after flipping the switch when the appliance is not plugged into the wall) and even after being plugged into the wall, cannot be a result of molid because the state of the appliance is wholly dependent on the person/plant powering it. Is it assur to cover a cold person with a blanket so that they’ll warm up, because the blanket is acting like a “source” of heat? No, because their heat is entirely dependent on the blanket – remove the blanket, and they’ll be cold again, even if they wear the blanket for all of Shabbat. So it is impossible to create something fundamentally new if it is still wholly dependent on another entity.
Makeh B’Patish is similarly invalid.
Sparks are a moot argument, both now and back when they were first feared. Sparks are an ingredient to fire, but they are not fire in and of themselves. The fear is that sparks could fall on some kindling and then start a fire. So should we stop handling magnifying glasses on Shabbat, because holding it in a specific way could focus the sun’s rays and start a fire? But certainly nowadays when most electric appliances are spark-free and it’s not even possible to buy incandescent light bulbs by act of government, this argument certainly no longer applies.
The argument that additional power is used is also invalid. In our hand-crank argument, imagine that we hand-cranked all week into a battery to have a surplus of electricity that we then used up on Shabbat. This would be OK since the electricity was created before Shabbat and no actual melacha of creating electricity is being performed on Shabbat. Well, in the real world, that’s what’ll happen. Either the power plant is being run by goyim, in which case we just need a letter that legally defines them as shabbat goyim by requesting before Shabbat for the generation of electricity during Shabbat in quantities of more than the community will end up using, or the plant is automated in which case the automation will have been set prior to Shabbat, which is widely accepted.
Bishul, even before the argument became factually obsolete, would not apply because we don’t eat wires or other electrical equipment.
Rav Auerbach has his own objections. See: http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/broyde_1.htm In fact, R’ Auerbach basically says that he would rule electricity as acceptable if the original rulings were being made today, but decides to rule against out of fear of people not understanding his ruling rather than making a heter for the community.
But it’s well known that there are various situations in which the rabbis are willing to bend the halacha. See: crockpots, hearing aids…
If you read R’ Kahane’s literature you understand that the reason why Reform and Conservative Judaism are failures is, besides the halachic problems, the fact that they fundamentally lie to the people who are raised in those systems. You can’t lie to children, they will see right through your lies and desert you later on. Well, it works both ways. The advent of “half-shabbos” with kids being fully Shabbat observant with the exception of cellphones/texting etc. is a direct result of children understanding that hilchot Shabbat, when it comes to electricity, are complete and utter BS.
It’s long past time for the rabbis to correct their rulings and move onto more pressing halachic questions in the same arena – the permissibility of hard drives and flash memory, i.e. the permanent storage of information on computers. Is this a violation of Ketivah, the prohibition of writing, since it fulfills a similar idea of recording information permanently, or not if Ketivah only applies to information that can be observed with the naked eye while bits on a platter look the same to the naked eye regardless of their order? In other words, is there Talmudic literature about allowing writing in ciphertexts, where you would need a key to understand what was written, or was it never examined since pen-to-paper was the definition of Ketivah? If so, how would ciphertexts not created by pen-to-paper be viewed halachically? These are much more interesting questions.
MG,
I thought the 3 were a mitzvah on Shabbat:
Boneh = erecting
Makeh Bepatish = banging
Molid = creating
So Dan is THIS what men neeeed to learn for? So they can come on Heshy’s blog and get arrogant that they know more because they learne full time.
Is it what they need to learn for?
Well, it isn’t what I learned for. But, I will concede that in my current post-yeshiva lifestyle, I mostly learn only to make fun of people on the internet.
The point is the same though. If you don’t know nothing, you can’t have an opinion about it. You need to know what you know and what you don’t know. Otherwise you are just a fool.
Mind you, it’s another good argument for installing a solar water heater. The Sun will be turned on anyway on Shabbos.
Or, this:
http://www.sterlingwaterheaters.com/ProductInformation.html
Exactly. In Israel I had no problem showering on Shabbos, because they have solar heaters.
I decided a few years ago that there is no prohibition of showering on Shabbos. In school they tell you it is about heating water. So can you take a cold shower? Then they tell you it is about “smoothing” the bar of soap. Can you use liquid soap? Then they tell you it is about “squeezing” the towel. So don’t “squeeze” the towel. [Yet, men go to the mikvah on Shabbos mornings with their towels. What’s that about?]
So, if you live in an apartment house or are in a hotel (where you are not actually causing the water to heat up), take your liquid soap and enjoy a nice hot Saturday morning shower before shul.
I have heard this as well and I have a friend who does it.
If the water’s not heated at ALL, and it’s winter, it would be doable but extremely unpleasant.
Also, girls wring out their hair, but on shabbos they can just… not do that.
You can take a regular shower on Shabbos, as long as it is not hot. Lukewarm is fine.
First time reading this I thought you said it was OK to take a shower with Luke Ford on shabbos. Oy.
Why? Does that not heat up the water?
so you could at least shower without washing your hair.
Nice. Have you ever learned hilchos shabbos? Maybe you learned through the gemara with basic rishonim? Maybe you learned the shulchan aruch and nosei keilim? Maybe at least you learned the shulchan aruch with mishna berura?
No, you didn’t you say? Oh. But you can pasken shailos of hilchos shabbos anyway. Sure, and probably also you self diagnose yourself when you have chest pains and save a few bucks on the doctor.
This was directed at Avrumy, not at lex luthor. Lex luthor is rather learned, and presumably is quoting someone else here anyway.
Dan,
B”H we have a ruv on this blog full of ameratzim (amei ha’aretz?) who just make stuff up for fun. But you are a scholar, and can help us. So please do.
Can you open a refrigerator door on shabbos when the motor is on (or off)? Can you open the front door of your house if you happen to have air conditioning or heating? Can you walk in the same room as shabbos candles considering that the draft caused by your walking might cause the flames to flicker thus increasing or decreasing their burning? Can you walk by a video camera? motion detector? thermostat? or any sensor device installed for security or environment control? Does it make a difference if you initiate a direct action (p’sik riesha) or an indirect action (g’rama)?
These are important questions. I’ve been living in Amish country (near Lancaster, PA) most of my life where we never had electricity or use batteries, so I don’t know hilchos shabbos. Can you help?
BTW, did you know that Amish women have use the old fashioned crank-style egg beater mechanism since they can’t use batteries to power their “personal massager”. It gives the hand quite a workout. Good news is that you can use that on shabbos. But hey, I digress.
Telz,
The crank style egg beaters are probably muktze unless the frauleins pre-designate them for use as personal massagers
Also may be a problem if the workout is too strenuous if things get out of hand (pun intended).
Reminds me of the Mea shearim guy once interviewed on Israeli radio, regarding throwing rocks at people desecrating Shabbos. A guy calls in and asks “aren’t the rocks muktze?”, he answers “don’t worry, we pre-designated them for that purpose on Friday”.
To clarify, a hot shower is problematic even if the water is not being heated up on Shabbos. But lukewarm is fine, even a regular shower.
So lighting a fire is permitted on Shabbos?
For shame!
No, it isn’t. Who’s lighting a fire?
You are, every time you use the hot water. Even if the shower is lukewarm your draining causes it to refill with cold water which turns on the flame for an oil or gas heater or the heating element for an electric one.
If you happen to have a water system which instantly heats up the water which is about to come out of the faucet, you would only be able to turn on the cold water. The halacha I stated above was for the normal water systems most people have.
Any system with a hot water tank other than a passively-heated solar system drains hot water from a tank with a thermostat. As water is drained it is replaced with cold water. The temperature drop causes the heating element of whatever sort to turn engage or ignite.
I am aware of this, as I’ve stated below. My above comment was only about a specific uncommon case, in which the water is actually heated up on its way to the faucet. I had never heard of such a thing, but apparently according to an email a friend of mine sent me, it does exist. Such a system would be problematic.
Man, I try to write a light post, and it STILL turns into an all-out religious battle. Do you people just like to argue or something? Hey, me too!
To answer everyone’s questions: Yes, I am aware that when hot water leaves the tank it automatically refills with cold water which in turn gets heated up, and that when there is a significant temperature drop in the contents of the tank, the heating element turns on.
Even so, it is permitted for one to turn on the hot water, provided that one does not specifically care that the tank immediately refills with hot water. This is the normal case, as far as I know.
There are several technical halakhic considerations which must be taken into account in order to support the above conclusion, so please do not make comparisons to other scenarios without being properly informed of all of these considerations (this should be obvious, but for some reason it isn’t). As it stands however, anyone who wishes to rely on the above and turn on the hot water faucet on Shabbos, may do so. If you want specific reasons, contact me.
So, what I want to know is:
If I set up a camera in an area where there are Orthodox Jews, and hook it up to a computer such that if it recognizes a particular style of dress (say, the “I am a 17th Century Anti-Semitic Polish Nobleman” attire that is so favored in the Chareidi world), it lights a fire, would it therefore be forbidden to walk in front of the camera on Shabbos?
Could make a bundle selling these to upscale neighborhoods as the Anti-Eruv…
Nope. Walking by them would be a davar she-eino mitkaven.
Even if there were an alternative route? If there is a way that doesn’t involve the secondary action, isn’t that required.
Also, if instead of visual recognition, it simply went off when anyone walked in front of it (such that it was guaranteed to happen every time), wouldn’t that also block davar sh-eino mitkaven? Or would the fire have to be under something to be cooked (since cooking things is beneficial and forbidden)?
Davar she-eino mitkaven is permitted even where there is another route.
Even if a fire was kindled each time a person walked passed it, it would not be enough of a guarantee to remove it from the category of eino mitkaven. Since when I am walking I do not know exactly which step I take will cause the fire to be kindled, no one act of mine can be said to be inevitably causing the fire to be kindled. We don’t create a bubble in time and say that if something will inevitably happen during that bubble, it is considered a p’sik reishe (what we call an inevitable result which is forbidden to cause even if the action is an eino mitkaven). P’sik reishe is determined based on each individual action, and if it is uncertain that this specific step will cause the fire to be kindled, it is not a p’sik reishe, and retains its permissibility due to davar she-eino mitkaven.
What if I mark the specific points were the detection is triggered, so that there is no doubt which step will trigger the ignition?
Then you will have a problem.
Well, technically, they would have a problem.
I would just have a religiously derived Rube Goldberg BBQ.