I once mentioned that one of the reasons molestation is covered up in the frum community is because it’s really not mentioned in the Torah or halachic response. There is no halacha against touching that little boy in the mikvah, sure rape might be a little different, but nothing wrong with a little fondling right? Now there’s this pretty nasty claim against a family for covering up this incest/rape stuff that took place between 3 brothers and their younger sister – because it happens all over the place in the orthodox community.
Incest is clearly not allowed in the Torah, but the Torah contradicts itself because the 12 brothers apparently had twin sisters which they married and everyone turned out fine (maybe this is why we Jews have so many f-in diseases) Also Shimon only killed all of shechem so he could have dibs on his sister Dinah and I heard that Cain and Abel also got it on with their sisters as well. Does this mean that incest is allowed and that the Rabbi (father) in this case of fairly nasty incest and rape is right – his kids were just doing what they learned in the little midrash says?
Of course not!
Clearly the brothers and everyone who was brought up before Sinai was on such a high spiritual level that they only practiced the parts of Judaism which they needed to, like bris milah. I wonder when incest became disgusting? Was it one of those things that was cool up until the Rabbis declared us on too low of a madreiga to handle our hot brothers and sisters? Or maybe it was when they figfured out all the kids were coming out deformed, so they better stop.
I still wonder if these kids who raped and fondled their sister secretly thought it was ok because they learned it somewhere in the Torah or gemara. It’s almost like we need to have some sort of modern day halachic text explaining exactly what is assur and why. Has any gadol ever explicitly stated that fondling little boys in the mikvah is assur, or is it just one of those chumras (like being honest with business and not beating up women who sit in the front of the bus) that only modern orthodox people hold by?
Find kosher incest on 4torah.com
{ 43 comments… read them below or add one }
The alleged multi-year rapes of a little girl are terrible.
The Rabbi saying “Don’t go to the police. It’s not like it’s anything unusual among Orthodox families” are vile beyond belief.
The rapists need to be in prison. The Rabbi needs to be taken out and shot.
Hey look everyone, I agree with Nuran. This must be the age of the messiah.
Heshy,
Dan thinks you are the messiah. I think Nuran is right. Rape is a heinous crime. But what is worse than rape? The movie “The General’s Daughter” asked and answered that very question. there is something even worse than rape, it’s when the father condones the rape of his own daughter to save face.
We have to eradicate this evil.
I think people don’t realize how big of an issue it is. To be honest, I only really know about the prevalence based on my close acquaintanceship and friendship with multiple people who have made it their life’s mission to root out the evil that is child molestation in the frum community and the cover ups of such.
A friend of mine recently, who I generally consider “in the know” and with it, recently poo-pooed a comment I made about the prevalence of such things as not really happening that often, and just a few occasional cases. People don’t know, it’s not that they just don’t care. That’s why everything about the Agudah et. all’s stance of telling a rav first sounds great in theory but is horrible in practice. The rav tries to take care of it himself (at best) and doesn’t want to warn anyone about these possibilities because of “loshon hara” (totally mutar, btw).
People think the problem doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t really need solving and that couldn’t be further from the truth. Children are dying. This isn’t mosair, chillul Hashem, or anything else; this is hatzalas nefashos.
“Find kosher incest on 4torah.com”
Really? My word
Darn! Nuran beat me to it.
Are you saying the Torah is false? Wtf r u religious for? Asswipe!
The free food
He’s saying religious institutions and the people in them can become corrupt. This rabbi isn’t Torah. The local Bes Din isn’t Torah. They’re human beings who can lose their way and do evil things. Torah remains Torah in spite of the bad things people do in its name.
Actually molestation is absolutely forbidden. The Torah does not mention the obvious. The gemora uses strong words against people like that. As far as incest goes, the family is obviously not in the best phycological health and the parents need to be examined for child abuse. This is sick and the torah does not condone this is any way.
Why is it that every sicko demands a public response? Any normal person knows this is wrong and to pretend to hide “behind the torah” is only defaming the torah and causing a huge chillul hashem.
Re: The Torah does not mention the obvious.
Are you serious? Isn’t not stealing obvious? How about murder? Rape? Those things aren’t obvious to you?
Where does it say in the torah that you can’t rape? I know where it says that if you do it you need to pay 100 coins or so.
Good point. Wasn’t sure if I should include that one. But I figured that it is implied that one should not do it if there are penalties attached to it. I really should have left it out.
yeah. In any event, I don’t think the answer to the question is the torah doesn’t include the obvious. At the risk of responding to satire with a serious post, the answer is that you aren’t allowed to harm people- that is in the torah.
You forgot:
* Apikorsim not included
I don’t have to state the obvious
Murder is a serious crime. It’s right there in Leviticus
Stealing used to be, but some of the Charedi rabbis have “re-interpreted” it to mean “Don’t kidnap people and hold them for ransom” which means defrauding the government is just fine.
Rape? As long as it’s not a virgin you’re cool. If it’s a shiksa you enslaved after killing her family on jihad it’s all good. Your slave in general? No problem. I suppose this means post-Moshiach we can rape all the shiksas, because they’ll all be our slaves.
Forced buggery? Probably a problem, and I’d be willing to bet some Sages say both you and the victim die. What about raping a married woman? Does she get the hazoot for adultery?
Some fondling, forced oral on little boys, making a slave show her breasts after paying a few zuzim? Can’t recall where it’s a problem.
This is one of the many reasons I would never EVER be Orthodox. A God with that sort of attitude does not deserve my worship.
Rape is an economic thing according to the Torah. If the woman screamed or was far away from the city you have to pay a fine or, under certain circumstances, she has to marry you and can never be free. It’s all about her being damaged goods by losing her hymen.
To its credit the Talmud overrides God and says “She’s not actually forced to no matter what the Big Guy says.”
And let’s not forget the part where if she doesn’t scream at the right time and under the right circumstances she’s killed.
What in the world are you talking about?
I don’t know if these two comments are the real Nuran or the fake Nuran, but they’re completely baseless and off the wall.
Dan, you’re being dishonest. Stop it.
This isn’t “baseless”. It’s straight out of Tanakh, not the tortured sophistry of centuries of bearded lawyers. It’s straight from the mouth of God to Moses.
A man who is caught raping a woman has to pay for her hymen and is forced to marry her. A woman who is engaged and her rapist are stoned to death, him for doing his neighbor’s wife, her for not screaming loud enough to be heard.
Rape of captive women is specifically permitted by God himself. A regular slave gets a little bit of money.
These are direct positive commandments.
You will pipe up with “Well, that’s not what it really meant. We have Gemara and Rambam and the rest who tell us otherwise.” Yes, you’ve decided that God has to bow to the authority of men when someone shouts loudly enough to get the others to go along. That’s a well-established Talmudic principle.
It doesn’t change the simple, direct words of Tanach. And it doesn’t change the fact that rape is a crime against property. And the women here are treated as property. Meanwhile, a woman who tries to save her husband’s life by grabbing his attacker by the nuts is crippled by order of Adonai.
You are completely distorting what it says.
The passuk says that if a man sleeps with a betrothed woman in a city, they are both killed. (why would you translate arusah as engaged? It means betrothed- the principal difference is that you need a real divorced to end it. We assume it was willing since she had the option to resist and didn’t.
But, if it was in the field, and she presumably did resist but was unheard, she is not killed because it was rape.
Thus, unlike some other societies which punish victims of rape, the torah specifically says that it is not her fault provided she attempted to resist.
Comes along the brilliant philosopher and historian and decides that we are really killing her for not yelling at the correct time. And totally twists it on its head.
Actually, if women were considered property, murdering a woman would not result in execution, since the Torah never prescribes the death penalty for property violations. Unlike in almost every other Ancient Near Eastern law code, even murdering a slave gets you the death penalty. Those other law codes also *do* allow the death penalty for crimes like theft. Say what you will about the Torah, but it certainly introduced a lot of distinctions between humans and objects.
Also, Nuran – if you assume the premise that the Torah was given straight to Moses, doesn’t that also assume the premise that some kind of Oral Law was given along with it? I’m not asserting that either must be true, but it seems a bit arbitrary to suppose one as truth and one as lie, since both are traditional Jewish dogma. Unless you assume the theory of the Karaite sects, I suppose, although the early Karaites did follow various Oral Laws, just non-rabbinic.
Dan – one thing is, whatever the Torah’s intentions, it lacked a certain grasp of human psychology when dealing with rape. The intention was probably good; the details needed refinement.
Actually, the RamBam says that relations with a girl under the age of 6 (i think its 6) is not forbidden. He says there is no punishment for it at all.
If memory serves that’s not quite right. A child who is raped is still considered a virgin for purposes of marriage.
I don’t think its your memory- you are just plain ignorant. A child who is raped is not considered a virgin unless she was under 3 years old.
The only difference it ever makes for marriage is to marry a kohen, and the amount of money in the ketuba.
Still treats her as property, IMO. Used cars are cheaper than a new car. Used wives are cheaper than new wives.
Which is why I oppose the halachic pre-nup.
Explain
They’re turning marriage into a monetary arrangement.
Seems like it already is one.
Nope, not plain ignorant. I just never learned to bow down or that differences of opinion were heresy. You’re smart but only learned the habit of unthinking obedience, never independent thought.
The old anti-Semitic canard was “A rabbi can rape a three year old girl, and it’s all good.” The complete exegesis on the subject – yes by the infallible Sages whom you worship over minor demigods like Adonai – was much different. A child under a certain age who was raped was not considered spoiled goods.
And yes, the property thing does fit. Rape is a theft from the father. That’s why the only penalties are for reducing the value of his daughter’s cooter. A slave is property but actually has more intrinsic worth; you have to pay her if you use her. According to the Word straight from Jehovah a man’s children are property. Need money? Nothing prevents him selling them.
The apologists will say “Those were different times, and it was only because the whole family would starve if this weren’t an option.” Maybe so, maybe not. The language of Tanakh doesn’t touch on that at all. And we keep hearing “Torah is perfect and eternal”. That would mean it’s still eternally perfect to sell your kids as long as it’s legal under the laws of the country you live in.
There were cases on record where Jewish women converted to Islam because bad as it can be Islam recognized the idea that rape was a detestable crime. I’m sorry to see things like that happen, but it’s not unreasonable for a woman to see some advantages there. Also the Muslims at least place some limits on the number of wives a man can have. Judaism didn’t until the a little over a thousand years ago by rabbinical decree and then only for the Ashkenazim.
Perfect and eternal in which case you’re cool with this?
Imperfect and modifiable in which case the rest of your argument collapses?
It’s not a very pretty choice.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want to discuss whether it is perfect and eternal, it has to be with the assumption that the oral law as presented in the talmud was always part of the torah, and that is what is perfect and eternal.
Yes. I go with perfect and eternal, the written law together with the oral law.
I haven’t the slightest notion what you think I should find objectionable as far as polygamy.
A father is allowed to sell his daughter as a servant in which case she is a servant for 6 years or until she becomes an adult at 12, whichever comes first.
A father is also allowed to marry his daughter off. In the case of selling her as a servant, the buyer also has the right to marry her- in which case she ceases to be a servant and has all the rights of a wife.
I don’t find that objectionable either. Deal with it.
You can’t sell your sons. Deal with that.
The torah recognizes rape as a detestable thing. Even though the punishment is money and being forced to marry her. Deal with that. Don’t give me the Islam BS- in moslem countries they regularly murder rape victims in “honor killings.”
Most of the other garbage you’ve posted about cutting off hands is not part of the oral law. I know you don’t believe the oral law was part of the original torah, but I have no reason to defend your made up religion which I don’t believe in. Deal with that too.
“You’re smart but only learned the habit of unthinking obedience, never independent thought.”
lol. You still think I’m a sheltered chareidi. This is just too funny. Maybe if some girls thought that I could actually get married.
hey a friend posted this on Facebook. I thought it may be nice to show the positive side of chareidim in israel.
ITS NOT ALL ONE SIDED ALL THIS SEGREGATION BUSINESS IN ISRAEL…..
got this from my Heshy Landau from Netanel Tani Weiner,
Story
The 350 Mehadrin bus[1] from Bnei Brak to Ashdod is normally jammed, but at 3 PM more than half the seats were still vacant. Four young women in slacks, obviously not from the Haredi[2] or religious neighborhoods along the route, boarded the bus at the stop adjacent to the Coca Cola factory in Bnei Brak. Rather than moving to the rear of the bus, they sat down demonstratively in the front two rows seats on the right side of the bus. Some of the male passengers were baffled; two others decided to get off the bus. A Breslever Chassid, sitting across the young ladies on the left side of the bus, simply closed his eyes and smiled. This was not a reaction that the headline-seeking heroines were looking for, having so boldly entered the mobile Haredi lion’s den.
No one yelled at the fearless four, women’s-rights or democracy activists in their late twenties. No one even spoke to them. There was nothing to document on their cell-phone videos. What a waste! Well, at least they might be able to take a nice walk on the beach in Ashdod…
If there’s no news, then make the news! One of the young woman got out of her seat (while the three others were poised with their cell-phone video cameras, waiting to pounce on the action they hoped would come) and stood next to the Breslever, whose toothy smile would have done justice to any Crest or Colgate commercial.
“Hey, why can’t you look at me?” the young lady asked abrasively, obviously itching for a conflict.
“Do you want your husband looking at other young women?” the Breslever responded.
“I’m not married,” she said.
“I bless you that you should find your soul-mate this year!”
The activist wasn’t ready for this turn in the conversation. She needed to steer things differently. “What are you so happy about with that imbecilic grin of yours?”
“In Torah 282 of Likutei Moharan, Rebbe Nachman teaches us to appreciate our good points and to be happy with every little mitzvah we do; and in Torah 17, first part, Rebbe Nachman says that the slightest good deed that a person does makes a tremendous impression in the upper spiritual realms…”
The activist was getting more and more impatient. This was not the action she was looking for, wasting half a day on a bus ride going someplace where she didn’t need to go. “So what,” she snapped.
“You asked me why I’m smiling. I’m answering you. I never thought that riding a Mehadrin bus was a big deal; I mean, it didn’t seem to be such a great mitzvah. But if the Yetzer Hara[3] is going to such lengths to bother me on this bus ride, then it must be really significant in shamayim that men and women don’t mix. This morning, when I was learning Tosefot on Baba Kama, the Yetzer wasn’t bothering me as much as he is now. Thank You, Hashem, for giving the mitzva of riding this bus.” With eyes shut, he turned at the activist and added, “and thank you, cherished sister, for adding to my rewards in the World to Come.”
The young lady’s antagonism was melting into frustration. She was obviously the ring-leader, and her three sisters-in-arms were eagerly awaiting to see how she’d react. Their game plan (or battle plan) to wave the flag of women’s rights on the Mehadrin bus didn’t anticipate a frontal confrontation with a Breslever…
“What do you people smoke that gets you so spaced out?” she chided.
“I’ll admit that I’m high, dearest sister, but that comes from tallit, tefillin, Torah, and an hour of talking to Hashem every day.”
“What’s with this ‘dearest’ and ‘cherished sister’ garbage?”
“You see,” explained the Breslever, “your soul and mine both are a tiny part of Godliness. We have the same Father; you don’t need a PhD in genealogy from Hebrew University to know that we’re brother and sister. Besides, the Torah says so explicitly…”
“Are you the real deal or are you just putting on a good show?”
“If I invite you and your girlfriends for Shabbat…,” meanwhile removing his kosher cellphone from his shirt pocket, about to dial his wife’s number, “will you come? When you taste Shabbat and my wife’s cooking, you’ll understand how much Hashem loves you, and so do we.”
Squirming and completely off guard, the activist snarled, “You’re wife is probably an illiterate cook and bottle washer pregnant with her twelfth – what would she and I have in common?”
The Breslever chuckled, “No, my wife is only pregnant with our eighth. But you’ll like her – she has a MBA in Finance from the University of Tel Aviv. Besides, she was a sergeant in the Artillery Corps of the IDF, an army medic and a training-base instructor in first aid. She even served in Lebanon for two months…”
“What?! Don’t tell me you were in the army too?”
“Yeh, I admit it. I was a tank commander. Then I did a degree in Communication from UTA. That’s where my wife and I met…”
All the stereotypes were crumbling. The four activists were disarmed. No fight, no arguments, no protests – only an invitation for Shabbat…
The activist tried one last effort. She sat down next to the Breslever. This will surely get his goat and make him lose his cool, she thought.
He still smiled, but a tear trickled down his cheek.
“Why are you crying?” she asked, jolted by this additional surprise. Her compassion was a sign of the Jewish soul that shined from deep within her.
“I’m not really the prude that you think. But I love my wife and want her face to be the only female image in my brain. You, dear sister, are a Bat Yisroel, a Jewish daughter. Every Bat Yisroel is beautiful. Please, I wouldn’t embarrass you by getting up. But I’m not a holy man – I wish I were. You’re really testing me. You are a moral young lady; would you steal something from a pregnant woman with seven children? By making me look at you, you’d be stealing some of my affection for my wife. I’m sure that’s not your intention.”
Gently, as if walking on eggs, the young lady stood up. “I’m so sorry,” she said, showing her true delicate and considerate inner self. “I never thought of it that way. Besides, if all the Haredim were like you, things would be different. Tell me, are you the ones that go to Uman every Rosh Hashana?”
“Yes, I’m one of them.”
“Are all of you this nice? I mean, you don’t try to act like Hashem’s cop.” She surprised herself by saying “Hashem”. Since when do such words come out of an ultra-liberal libertarian feminist’s mouth?
“I only try to police myself.” The bus arrived at the Breslever’s station in Ashdod’s Rova Gimel. The Breslever got up but added, “Let us know if you’re coming for Shabbat…”
Beautiful story, really. But I think you miss the point. Indeed there are many wonderful breslovers out there, and many frummies of other stripes and types who are wonderful too. They have middos and are kind. We should celebrate them, become them, share their stories (especially those that are factually accurate). But this is irrelevant here. The existence of a nice frummy is no solution to the problem.
The problem is with the existence of the not so nice frummy who is evil and warped, and tries to use our religion as a justification for his psychopathic behavior. We need to shout out loud that we don’t tolerate this at all. This is not frum. The Torah does not condone this behavior at all, and anyone who says so is being as honest as a J4J missionary who also warps the Torah to make a point. At least the J4J guy is not evil, just messed up. Molestation and rape has no place under our rugs.
As for the Breastlover chassidim, I love ‘em too. But only a consensual love.
Beautiful story. But who is telling it? The narrator knows what the antagonist is thinking and feeling, but it’s not told from her point of view. Nor from the Breslever’s. Was there a telepath on the bus who witnessed the incident? Or was there an incident where a group of secular women had a conversation with a chossid, and the details were added to make the story “inspiring?”
I know you’re being sarcastic, that’s the “voice” most difficult to pull off in writing.
What seems most obvious from the stories is that incest must be common in the rabbis’ families, nu? They seem oblivious to the fact that it’s totally forbidden, and that everything must be done for it to stop, including punishment and therapy.
Can there be any other reason for their reaction?
Somehow I don’t think this is actually A Nuran, but, in the interest of disagreeing with everything A Nuran says before Dan does, Shut up whiteboy.
It isn’t me. It’s a pathetic little troll.
lol
“A man who is caught raping a woman has to pay for her hymen and is forced to marry her.”
To my knowledge, they don’t have to get married, it’s just an option that’s presented to the victim because otherwise she may not be able to find a husband. (Does it not say this straight in the Torah? To be honest, this isn’t the kind of thing I look up in my spare time…) Let’s all bear in mind the Torah was written thousands of years ago, which was not a terribly pro-feminist time, and women who were raped back then weren’t so desirable. Unfortunately, this mindset persists too much today.
The somewhat gentler “It’s an option” came hundreds of years later with a more humane revision of the original.
Like so many other things status of women varied from place to place. In Ancient Israel it was pretty bad, even by the standards of many of its neighbors. The tribal laws reflect this.
You’re making that all up. You haven’t a clue what it originally was.
The tribal laws reflect this? Which ones? Which research? Oh great historian and philosopher.