You ever learn that Gemara where Bruriah lists all the kosher foods that are stand-ins for non-kosher food, in order to show that even though we are commanded to sanctify ourselves, Judaism isn’t restrictive? What a preachy, party-line, pile of shit.*
There’s this girl I work with who is the nicest, most awesome person I know. I love talking to her and hanging out at work, but even though I’m dying to have a real relationship with her, I can’t, because, you guessed it, she’s not Jewish. And no matter that every sign in the world points to God dropping her in my lap, it’s too bad. So now, according to Bruriah, I’m supposed to find a Jewish girl to match up. But the chances of that happening are a million to one, because A) I’m not ready to commit to dating someone for marriage and 95% of the Jewish girls I would be compatible with are only interested in that, and B) she’s fucking PERFECT for me! But still, I’m trapped by this religion and religious culture I belong to. The only thing I can do is sit here and complain about it online. Well, I guess that’s one thing I can still do. I might have to eat the food you’re feeding me, but I don’t have to like it.**
*And something always rubbed me the wrong way about Bruriah. Always yelling at men to follow Halachah when they’re just making normal conversation or going about their day. What the hell! If you don’t like it, don’t do it. The non-stop preaching throughout the Gemara, to Ziddukim, etc. The most messed up part about her is how she died. You know that story? Basically, Bruriah has a fight with her husband, R’ Meir, whether women are emotionally flighty and therefore illogical- “Nashim daatan kalos hein”. Bruriah says no way. “I’m just as smart as you and can think just as clearly.” R’ Meir coughs and mutters “cold-hearted kana’i”, “ehem, excuse me.” Bruriah says, “What was that?” R’ Meir answers, “Oh nothing. Just had something caught in my throat.” Bruriah still looks pissed so R’ Meir changes the subject and says “Let’s have a contest.” She agrees.
R’ Meir goes and tells one of his suavest students to seduce his wife. She refuses the guy’s advances, refuses, refuses, until one day she finally relents. R’ Meir jumps out and says, “Gotcha! Nashim daatan kalos hein. That means your parents aren’t coming here for pesach this-” But before he can finish, she kills herself. Yup, kills herself. She is so fragile and dependent on this super-frum shell that she created for herself, that she can’t face living without it. I really should feel bad for her, but she’s such a self-righteous kana’i that I don’t.
**I actually like Kosher food. That’s not the frikkin take home point here.
And Beth- I’m dying to see how you could turn this into kiruv.
{ 98 comments… read them below or add one }
She isn’t perfect for you. You wouldn’t marry her. Because you still do have conflicted values, and she doesn’t share those values.
Dan, let me let you in on a little secret. Nobody is perfect for anyone else. Not Abraham and Sarah. Not David and Johnathan. Not even the Rabbi and the cute boy in the mikveh.
The questions are “Is this woman good enough? Can we make a life together? Do we care about each other? Can I trust her when it counts?”
I married an Afro-Chinese shiksa who converted to Islam. She can’t trace her lineage back through enough Ashkenazi rabbis to prove that she’s completely inbred and holy-by-proxy. Hell, half her ancestors 150 years ago were slaves. She doesn’t have any yichus at all. She wasn’t a virgin when we met.
On the other hand, we have a wonderful marriage. I’ve seen plenty of by-the-book Orthodox Jewish friends and relations’ marriages crash and burn because they married too quickly, for the wrong reasons to people they shouldn’t have or weren’t ready to.
The reason our marriage has lasted two decades isn’t because she’s perfect. And God knows it isn’t because I am. It’s because we’re absolutely committed to making things work even when they aren’t perfect.
Nuran: I get the impression you do have similar values to her though.
Which values?
‘Values’ can mean so many things. Some of them are important. Some are clubs used to beat people with until they give up what their integrity for obedience.
Yes, see, so you espouse a value system whereby all values are suspect. As long as she shares that, you have the same values.
A system of values where values are suspect?
Garbage. Twaddle. Untreated effluent.
I value truth and clarity. That includes knowing what you believe and why you believe it. And it includes a recognition that what is at stake is often not deeply held principles or beliefs. The semantic bludgeons “God”, “morals” and “values” are most often no such thing. They are used to force unthinking obedience by bypassing the thinking part of the mind.
You could have saved lots of words by just saying “yes, that’s correct.”
Instead, you called names, and then proceeded to agree at length.
is she hot?
I think she’s the hottest woman I’ve ever met.
I do have different values, but that alone wouldnt stop me from marrying her. We have much more in common that what we dont have. The only thing that gets in the way is halacha and the community.
I forgot-
Go to http://www.Yeshivaforum.com
and 4torah.com. Something witty.
ODB, if she’s everything you say she is you’d be a damned fool to let her go just because of tribal affiliation. Klal Yisroel doesn’t need you. Tribal membership is an X-linked trait, so you don’t carry it.
You’re not trapped by anyone else. You’re trapping yourself. You’re free, self-supporting, single adults. You can make your own decisions and work out your own damnation without running like a half-witted child to some creepy, self-righteous corva who’s been dead for 1800 years.
If you pursue a relationship with her maybe it won’t work out, in which case welcome to the club. Maybe it will, in which case good for you. Maybe you’ll get sucker punched by Love and decide the two of you can’t live without each other in which case she’ll be the best thing that ever happened to you.
It wish it were that easy. You dont know how much I wish. I just cant.
It’s not that you can’t.
It’s that you can’t imagine.
The real key to slavery is making it impossible for the slave to believe it’s impossible to be free.
What do you really want?
Why do you want it?
What would you gain by taking it?
What would you give up?
Im a slave then. What would I have to give up? Everything I know. My family most probably wouldn’t even talk to me afterwards. I’ve thought this one through.
I didn’t grow up as religious as you did. But I went through the same thing when I announced I was getting married. “Your grandfather would rise up from the grave and die again.” “How could you marry a shiksa?” “Don’t expect us to let you in our house.” You know the drill.
So I thought about it. I thought about it a lot, and here’s what I came to…
It’s a parent’s job to love his or her children. A parent might not approve of what children do, but that’s the simple fact. If that love can be withdrawn any time it’s convenient, if it can be given as a reward or withdrawn as a punishment it wasn’t real. And if it wasn’t real it was a lie. Sacrificing yourself for love is one thing. Sacrificing yourself on the altar of a lie is another. If it was a lie, then you’re giving up the illusion of love and family, not the reality.
Giving in to extortion and blackmail is always wrong. That’s exactly what it is. “Do what we want or we will destroy you. Step out of line and we’ll tell everyone.”
About the only good thing John Leigh Hunt ever wrote was The Glove and the Lions. Read the last verse. Meditate on it.
In other words, it is only ok to take a stand if your stand is correct. I’m not sure why you needed to whole introduction, or the poem.
So it boils down to you thinking the stand was incorrect. Yay!
Dan, I know you get physically aroused at the thought of being shomer yiddeshkeit, defending the Pure True Light from the sweaty, greasy hordes of the aporikosim. Good. Some people use vibrating toys. You use vibrating indignation.
It doesn’t make you any more correct, just so you know.
I love how you picture me as some sheltered religious fanatic.
I’m just as cynical as everyone else here. The only difference is that I am also knowledgeable about Judaism, and also intellectually honest.
And, that part does make me right.
A. Nuran – You are now my hero! Also, I’m totally stealing this.
I’ve noticed that for you the noble moral stance is always always blind obedience to tribal tabu above all else. Parental love versus religion? To hell with your kids, you can always have more. Bend a little on extra dietary stringencies if you’re a guest and the host is trying to be hospitable? Even if it’s technically kosher, be a putz and toss the food back at him.
It’s not admirable. It’s not holy. It’s simply insufferable pride and self-importance.
What you’re saying is 100% right. (I hope everything worked out well for you.) But my relationship with my parents was never very solid. So if my parents decide not to speak to me, they can force my brothers and sisters and cousins also not to very easily. They have the force of a psak halacha behind them. Go ask 4 out of 5 rabbanim and see what they tell you about talking to a family member marrying a goy.
The greatest foundation Judaism has is that we acknowledge that our lives are NOT just for ourselves. We are a link in a chain going back thousands of years. If we choose to walk away, we can do that. But we cannot pretend that it does not matter, because it does. The choices we make have consequences, and not just for ourselves.
Being perfectly selfish may make Nuran happy. It makes me ill.
In other words you are always a slave, never free. Your conscience, your heart, your mind and your personal integrity must always be sacrificed to the dead hand of the past. You may not question. You may not disagree. If you do not comply immediately you will be punished mercilessly in this life and tortured in the putative next one.
Comply or die. No exceptions.
And in order to keep you obedient the restrictions always increase, never loosen. The lies you have to swallow always increase. They are never set aside in favor of increased honesty. The penalties always get stronger – poverty, loss of all your friends, loss of the love of your family, loss of your children, punishment for relatives two and three degrees out if you step out of line.
It all depends on your motivation for keeping tradition. If it’s purely to avoid penalties, then yes, you’re probably on the wrong path. But if you actually see true positive value in it, then I don’t think you can be called a “slave.”
An issue like this is very strenuous and difficult, and it really can’t be simplified down to black-and-white reasoning. The way I see it, do what you feel is best, and pay no attention to those with agendas, from either side.
Absolutely true. In this case the motivations are pretty obviously fear and the comfort a slave feels for the warm embrace of familiar chains.
Nuran,
Since when does doing what one feels is right make them a slave?
We are given the freedom of choice to decide whether or not to believe in a follow our religion, no one has put a gun to our heads. If one chooses to turn their back on it, it’s purely their choice. If they then get shunned by family members or friends for doing so, that is ultimately their choice/right to do so as well.
The religion that you chose to shun is the same one that defines you as a Jew. My simple question to you is, how do you define yourself as a Jew if not by the standards of Judaism?
Well, techically males do, of course, carry X-linked traits. In fact, it’s usually only the male who is affected by X-linked traits (e.g., hemophilia) because these are almost always recessive and a woman would have to have the trait on both Xs (meaning inherited it from both mom AND dad) which would be statistically much less likely to occur. (The probability of expression of a recessive trait sitting on the X chromosome for a male would be the frequency of the trait in the population. For a female , it would be the frequency squared.) Except in cases where you DO need two X’s to express the trait (like the calico color in cats, which requires a black gene on one X and an orange gene at the same locus on the other X).
So, actually, you might be better to say that “membership in the tribe” is conferred by mitochondrial DNA (which is only passed through the mother).
Oh my beloved OTDWB… *Sigh*
Lets start with this, to spite what they tell you boychiks in Yeshiva, goyish girls are dating for marriage too. So if you’re not ready to date a Jewish girl because you’re not ready to settle down – then you are also not ready to date this ‘perfect’ girl. The ‘shiksas are for practice’ thing is mean and it pretty much makes you a douche. (Don’t be a douche, dude.)
Further, remember your feelings are not facts. If you are a youngish person struggling with your religious identity and experiencing emotional conflict regarding what path to take in life, when you meet the ‘perfect’ girl – one who represents something completely different to what you know – your feelings for her may be a manifestation of a whole lot of things. Now she may be the ‘perfect girl’ – but it’s best to be sure what’s the really realz before dragging her into your existential crisis. (This is also falls under the category of not being a douche.)
If you and ‘perfect girl’ were meant to be together she has to convert. (Or your Mother is going to have to sit shiva for you.) Technically, she has to choose a Jewish life independent of you. The best way to ‘inspire’ her conversion is by being the best Jew you can be and thereby showing her the beauty of our collective insanity…er…religion. (Another reason to avoid the abovementioned douchery.) If HaShem did drop her in your lap, he will also call her to him.
Now… Close your eyes and try to imagine your future children and think of them on the day of their wedding. Is there a Chuppah in this mental picture of yours? Or is your daughter standing in front of a giant Crucifix? Did the Rabbi just say Sheva Brachot before your son shatters the glass? Or did a priest just make the sign of the cross and utter ‘in Jesus’ name, Amen?’
As yourself which picture are you comfortable with? Cause you likely can’t date goyim and get the chuppah/Rabbi. Just saying…
Hey Beth,
Ok, I’ll go paragraph by paragraph. #1- she told me shes not interested now either. And I’m interested if it works out. You know, if we get there naturally. But thats most likely going to be a long while down the road. I really need to test the waters. A lot. (And Im actually not talking s&xually now.)
Para. #2: You might be right, but honestly, thats not enough to deter me. I dont know if Ill ever figure it out, and shes also figuring stuff out.
Pg #3 On the other hand, what if the whole religion’s bogus? Then I just threw her away for nothing.
Pg #4 Yeah, thats super uncomfortable, but Im willing to do it. I’m at the point where I have serious doubts about the whole thing, and I’m not willing to make life changing sacrifices for it anymore. Without the social/family repercussions, this would be a go. Halachically, theres no real issur in the torah, its derabbanan, and I definitely dont believe in christianity so the cross has no religious meaning for me. Im comfortable with the decision spiritually, and almost comfortable religiously. I really believe, like 98% that God doesnt care. (Granted I dont think he cares about most things I do, but thats a whole nother story.)
Effin blog golum ate my other comment!
Now I just wanna hug you…in a very tznius, sisterly way.
(Get my email from Heshy. We’ll talk.)
“Lets start with this, to spite what they tell you boychiks in Yeshiva, goyish girls are dating for marriage too”
Yeah, the reality is WAY more complicated than this. Yes, most non-Jewish girls do not appreciate a guy getting involved with them who is positively certain that he will never marry them, but this is essentially the mentality of most males, below the age of about 25 (or 40 if you live in Manhattan) in the non-Jewish world (excluding those from ethnic/religious groups with more traditional mores, and pockets of principled men out there). And most girls know this.
Additionally, many of your average non-Jewish (and secular Jewish) college going girls date first and formost for fun, alleviating feelings of loneliness, a desire to feel attractive, physical attraction to men, etc. Marriage tends to be an afterthought–a distant afterthought for many in college, and even a decent chunk afterwards. The whole “nice guys finish last” adage has a grain of truth, in that if these girls were really first and foremost concerned about finding a future spouse, they would assess character first, and charisma second.
Additionally OTDWTB stop whining about not being interested in getting married. The fault is not with Judaism that it frowns upon your desire to have a physical relationship with a woman with no strings attached. You want a physical relationship? Try to deal with your issues with getting married first, then search hard for a woman you genuinely like.
I had a patient today tell me that her daughter got knocked up by some guy, who got 6 other women pregnant this past year. While you’re not in the same category as this guy, your mentality–when taken to its logical extreme, and completely unchecked by morals, results in this kind of nonsense. If you’re willing to actually use protection, it at leasts results in women feeling degraded. For all the nonsense perpetuated by some members of the frum community, the policy of men and women abstaining until marriage is a good thing.
Let me summarize your whole piece here: I’m uncomfortable with people saying Yiddishkeit isnt perfect on the internet.
You know that is how I want to date also.
I’ve been telling people: I don’t want to form relationships because I want to get married; I want to get married because I have a relationship.
Perfect.
You haven’t told us a thing about this girl. For example, if she’s not religious (or, statistically likely, not a Catholic) then your children are not going to being getting married in front of a crucifix with somebody making the sign of the cross over them! Unless of course they are. That’s the thing — you can’t really be sure what your kids are going to be doing anyway.
You haven’t told us about yourself. Are you actually “off the derech” or do you practice Judaism? Do you keep a kosher home? Do you want to? What (other) aspects of Judaism are important to you?
If the girl is not religious at all and you are not religious at all and the only thing holding you back is “my family won’t like it” then you’re crazy. But I would guess that this is actually not the case. Because, for example, if you’re not religious at all I would guess your family already doesn’t like it.
Even if she is religious there doesn’t have to be a crucifix. We got married by a judge.
True. But if she IS religious, that crucifix is going to pop up somewhere. Like when she takes the kids to get baptized. Because Christianity isn’t passed on via chromosomes OR mitochondrial DNA. The Pope can marry Mother Teresa (well not actually, but you know what I mean) and their kids are still not Christians unless they’re baptized. So if the mom is at all religious, that’s probably going to come up. If dad doesn’t give a rat’s a$%about religion one way or the other (like my husband) then it’s not a problem. But if the sight of a crucifix has the same effect on the guy that it does on vampires, there’s going to be trouble. I seem to recall OTDWB was unable to look at a Christmas tree without a trip down memory lane to the bad old days in the ghetto.
Cat mom,
I think the crufix will be a major problem for OTD. Just picture her wearing one on her necklace, even the little blue pill won’t do the trick
Reminds me of the shiksa scene in “the hebrew hammer”.
Well, I don’t wear one. I do wear a St. Francis medal though. But recently my teenage son told me he wants me to buy him a five inch crucifix because everyone at his (public) school is wearing one because it makes them look like “baaaaad a#$es.” I told him I would be delighted to see him wear a crucifix, but I’m not buying him anything whose purpose is to make him look like a “baaaaad a$#. ”
Already I’m waiting for the day when he meets a nice Catholic girl and she civilizes him. A nice Jewish girl would be fine too. As long as she can deal with a dude wearing a five-inch crucifix and trying to be baaaaad.
Cat mom,
Looks like my link is awaiting moderation. Kind of funny for a kid to want a crucifix to look bad, I imagined that would be a real “bad” thing to do if he were actually Jewish. May make for a real bad Purim joke.
My wife and I were watching Dee Snyder on TV last night, she though he may be Jewish (probably because of his accent) until I noticed him wearing a crucifix which gave it away.
I think it’s a black ghetto thing. I think gangsta rappers wear them and I kind of doubt they are devout Catholics.
We compromised on a two inch crucifix, BTW, which only makes him look like a nerdy white Catholic kid. But please don’t tell him. I don’t think a 10 inch crucifix is going to make him look like a black gangsta rapper unless he starts beating people with it.
I guess an upside down cross with skulls or n*de female demons on it was out of the question… I’m sure he’ll eventually figure out that size matters.
Lol! You’re not just saying that because you’re a talking peni$, are you?
OTD,
No, not really. But I couldn’t resist when she started talking about the black dude’s 10 incher versus the white boy’s 2 incher
Talk about beating people with it…
Haha! Hey, I found another pic for you when you get bored of this one:
http://sexxywriter.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/penis-cartoon.jpg
OTD,
I’ve got a kosher c0ck in my pic
besides, it’s G rated.
Got the idea for the handle from an old siddur that translated the bracha “hanoten lasechvi binah”, found a matching cartoon character.
Scene begins at about 5:30 of this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8xn721EpBM
Deep down you don’t like Jews very much do you?
For CatholicMum, I’m calling you out on your veiled antisemitism. Your sarcastic comments are disgusting. We don’t need to go down memory lane, we have:
this:
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2012/01/threats-against-jews-in-my-former.html
and this:
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/n-j-synagogue-suffers-anti-semitic-attack-on-first-night-of-hanukkah-1.403113
and this
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/11/30/3090514/anti-semitic-acts-of-vandalism-in-highland-park-nj
all within a short space of time and a close geographical area. Then we can look at other countries like France for example where antisemitic violence is a daily occurrence.
Some things never change, including Christian antisemitism (I’m talking about yours in particular) and yes you can be married to a Jew and be antisemitic.
anon — love your name by the way — do you actually read people’s posts or do you just reflexively start ranting? Did you hear me say there was no antisemitism in the world? That there was never antisemetic persecution in the world? You’re arguing with yourself, not me.
I said something very simple. The question was (rhetorically as it turns out, because the question was already decided) “should I date a Catholic girl that I think is “perfect” for me?” And my answer was this — “not if the sight of a crucifix is going to cause bad flashbacks for you like the sight of a Christmas tree apparently did because if she’s religious, it’s going to come up.” Can you tell me how this is anti-semetic? Guy A sees a woman wearing a crucifix and hardly even notices it. Guy B takes one look and hears the muffled tread of the cossacks at the door. Guy A might consider dating the girl. In my opinion, Guy B should not and Crowin’ Cock suggests that Guy B should not only not date the girl but probably won’t be able to consumate the marriage. But hey, you know, Crowin’ Cock, he’s such an antisemite.
Cat mom,
He may be able to consumate it from behind, I heard catholic girls prefer it that way
You spend time with your friends discussing the sex practices of Catholic girls? Or is that just what you like to talk about on the internet?
Cat mom,
Just with you babe, I think you should be our resident expert on the topic.
Please don’t feel compelled to share your fantasies in such detail.
Cat mom,
Just going on what I heard. Or maybe it was catholic nuns…
The cossacks were probably Orthodox, not Catholic.
If they were christian at all. Were the cossacks christians? Or just regular savages?
We already established on a previous thread that the Catholic Church is responsible for every act of persecution against Jews from the time of the Pharoahs, so lets not get into all these fine little historical distinctions again.
Dan,
Cossacks were definitely christians. I’m sure their priests like taking up the behind as well
Ever since Jesus got nailed.
Hey anon! You wanna classify this behavior or does your antenna only alert in one direction?
She’s actually catholic (ok, take a minute to stop smiling), but all the religious stuff is not that important to both of us. In a perfect world, I’d do what I do, she’d do what she does, and nobody outside would care who winds the leather straps and who puts dirt on their heads.
No halachic issur? Just that you can’t marry a non-Jew or sleep with them.
The worst part is that you think that Hashem doesn’t care about you. We all go through tests, some that are excruciatingly difficult and ongoing and that may not have any resolution in our lifetimes. If you have suffered you should know that you are not alone. Sometimes it’s hard to know what Hashem wants from us, but that does not mean a lack of caring. I wish you true and lasting happiness.
I really feel for you. I was in that situation. Only I was the non-jew girl and he was the frum guy. I wasn’t converting for him, I met him through the conversion process. However, all the BS and I mean serious BS that goes along with an orthodox conversion through the RCA (rabbinical council of america) broke me….really broke me. I say let it go now, for both of your sakes.
Thanks. Yeah, I decided to do that. Sounds like your story sucked really bad too.
I didn’t recall that story about Bruriah until you posted it. Thanks for the laugh and the walk down memory lane to the very weird experience that was my yeshiva years.
No problem man
If you aren’t talking about marriage, I don’t get why can’t you have a relationship with her. In front of your parents and community act like she’s just a close friend.
Neal,
I get the feeling that the family here wouldn’t be to thrilled about him dating anyone outside marriage, and I imagine they wouldn’t fall for the “just friends” thing.
OTD,
You sound like this woman is your soulmate before you’ve even dated her. You may be in for a big surprise if you do. I say she ain’t worth the pain and fallout (emotional and spiritual) , I don’t think any woman would be.
I don’t know that she’s not worth it, but I already decided not to pursue it bec of the fallout. It’s just torture now.
Otd,
People tend to try to stay away from workplace relationships anyway. Something about not sh*tting where you eat.
That works up until you find a steak cooking in the bathroom. On a fast day.
I agree completely with A. Nuran. Dating doesn’t mean you have to marry her. If you like her enough to ask her out, ask her out! If it works out, great! And even if it doesn’t work, you’ll gain some knowledge and positive life-experience.
I would be more concerned about her being a work-mate than your collective religious affiliation.
On the one hand, you’re not ready to “commit to dating [this girl] for marriage,” even though “dating for marriage” isn’t much of a commitment at all (it’s just dating to see if you might one day marry with no time limit or obstacles to dumping the person at any time before then). On the other hand, she’s so special that you might not find anyone like her, the odds of an as-good Jewish girl are “a million to one” and you’re already compromising on your not-yet-existent childrens’ wedding plans.
Maybe in general you’re capable of dating “not for marriage” (booty calls and ONS’s only?), but if you date this particular girl, you’ll definitely be dating her “for marriage” given the way you’re talking about her. Don’t kid yourself.
You should decide whether or not you are willing to date non-Jews and whether or not you are ready to “commit to dating for marriage,” whatever that means to you (to me it functionally means little to nothing over and above “regular” dating, but maybe you bring different assumptions to the table). These are two separate decisions and they should ideally be made without any particular person in mind. Once you decide, then go ahead and apply them. Good luck.
Thanks. Good points to think about.
you are whining. part of growing up means we have to make choices and live with them. some of our choices affect others and some will have repercussions that last generations. an adult should think about things like- do i want to practise judaism? do i want my kids to be Jewish? bris or baptism? bar mitzvah in temple or shul? if you know who you are and what you want, you make your choices accordingly and stop wondering about the other side.
Well, now that you’ve lectured me, I’ll be sure to grow up. Just give me a minute or two here.
great response.
Hey offthed, you’re grappling with a pretty high-stakes decision right now. my advice would be: if you’re looking for some advice, don’t post this on a blog. Think about it for a while, talk about with a close friend that you trust, and maybe meditate or something. This could end up being a life-changing decision and you don’t want to make a rash decision that you’ll end up regretting. Not like you would ever do that anyway…
Yeah. I decided to kill it before I posted this. I’m really just venting here to give everyone a little bit of my cr@p. And now I’m a little less constipated.
BTW, I was amused that you think she is not interested in a serious (eventually marriage) relationship “because she said so.”
ROTFLMAO
There is much we all still have to learn about women, but this shows that you are especially behind the curve.
That I know.
To OFTD, I really feel for you as I have been there. And in circumstances that Hashem really put this person in my life completely out of the blue. Hard as it was, I accepted it as a test. And it was very hard, especially as it was totally mutual. It’s all very well for ANuran and CatholicMum to propound on the joys of intermarriage, but the fact that it is not even an issue for them means that they have no idea what you’re going through, or what it means to a Jew. Stay strong and good luck.
I totally agree with this comment, Nuran and Cat mom are completely disconnected from the reality of what it means to be a frum Jew. Both being intermarried, their opinions regarding this post are misplaced.
OTD is whining about his situation, and I guess he has probably a earned the right to do so. Whether for the right reasons or not, he has held his ground as much as he didn’t want to. I’d compare this situation to a soldier that stands his ground even though he may not want to be there, as opposed to a cowardly deserter who’d rather spend his time selfishly tanning on the beach.
Yes, I suppose this is really the point here.
Strangely enough, I didn’t propound on the joys of intermarriage. In fact I specifically said that if they are BOTH even mildly religious, it’s going to be a potentially serious problem. That’s why I asked how religious OTD was and how religious this girl was.
And I didn’t say it wasn’t an issue at all for me. Just that my husband doesn’t care about religion. But, if I were giving advice to the lovelorn from my years of experience, it would be this: differences often make another person exciting and attractive, but marriage has to be built on similarities.
Thank you.
The girl who is perfect for you is the one who, through being married to her, will turn you into the best you that you could possibly be. That is not always the girl who is “easiest” to be married to. That means you’re deeply similar, but some things are different.
Also, it’s easy to confuse “I want to do her” with “she’s perfect for me.”
You are surely aware that your children wouldn’t be Jewish, and you should know that the divorce statistics for interfaith couples are much worse than for in-faith marriages (over 70%). The American message is that love conquers all, and all those divorced intermarrieds believed that, but it’s simply not true. It may conquer a lot, but not all. Right now you and your friend may not be that interested in either of your religions, but people change when they get married, have children and get older. Stay strong and ask Hashem to send you someone equally awesome who’s Jewish too. You will be glad you did.
This may be of help
http://www.jewishdatingandmarriage.com/bygo2.html
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/intermarriage-dear-son/
Going through the same thing but seems like it won’t be the end of the world because my kids will still b jewish, it might be worthit even if I loose my family to the love of my life who is christian
Sara do you realise the irony, you care about your children being Jewish but you yourself are going against the Torah. You’re putting yourself in a no-win situation. You obviously care about being Jewish, or otherwise you wouldn’t say that your kids would still be Jewish, but why should they respect a religion that you yourself don’t? Please see the above links. At least it’s something to think about.
On second thoughts you could get together with otdw, you already have something in common.
Need a like button
Now thats an odd comment to like.
OTD, there are many lovely shiksas, but you would have so much more in common with a Jewish girl. Do you realize what the assimilation rate is of Jews? It’s over 50%! Please contribute to the growth of our people, not decline. I would advise you to seriously think about this.
[If this winds up being a repost, I apologize for the clutter]
Catholic Mom–Sorry about the petty comments that cropped up here. Your advice and perspective are valuable, and the immature abuse seems aimed at chasing you off. Thanks for not dropping the thread.
OTDB–There is no right answer to this question. Catholic Mom and A. Nuran both seem to have found relationships that make them happy. That’s the enviable goal in companionship, and I, for one, would be wary of discounting their experiences and opinions. They have built relationships where the stresses of religious doctrine or community pressure do not outweigh or overshadow their relationships.
I don’t know your family dynamic or religious background. I didn’t grow up religious, but I’ve gone through various faith cycles. I’ve never lived a fully observant lifestyle, although there was a time when I was on a serious Baal Teshuvah path (keeping kosher, attending shabbat services, fasting on Tisha Ba’av out of a true sense of loss and mourning). I am not in a situation where the level of my religiosity would impact my family life–I could theoretically do bacon and beer on Yom Kippur and it wouldn’t faze my parents. Currently, I’m nominally Conservative, actually agnostic, and culturally Jewish.
Personally, I had a long, wonderful relationship with a girl whom I loved. She wasn’t Jewish. Her family was Christian, but she was apathetic about religion. We lived together for two years. The highest compliment I can pay our relationship is that at no point did it ever feel like work, or as though I needed to hide some aspect of myself. We just FIT. I would have married her, except for the fact that I knew doing so would leave my father with a deep existential regret. He’d die knowing, in his own mind, that he had failed as a father in a substantial way.
Was that a fair burden to put on me? No. Did it make it any less relevant or real? No. Ultimately, I decided that I couldn’t choose between family and love, and I broke up with her.
But these kinds of stories don’t end neatly, despite what moralists might urge you to think. Real love doesn’t easily fade, and I spent the next two years actively regretting my choice. In time, the pain faded, and I moved on to other relationships, as did she. But years later, I’m still not sure that I made the right choice.
What I am sure about is that, if I could go back in time and do it over, I would always make the initial choice to date her. There was heartbreak, anguish, and fallout, but it was also the best and most important romantic experience I ever had. Though it left scars, it was well worth the cost.
Does this mean that the girl from your work is your soulmate? No. But in my experience, there is great value in dating somebody, even if it has an expiration date.
As for advice, I think Beth, Catholic Mom, and A. Nuran all make excellent points. Beth provided a particularly sensitive counterpoint, in my opinion.
I would merely caution you against taking advice from people whose only interest in your predicament is based in a dogmatic perspective, rather than compassion and understanding. While this individual girl might be nothing more than a fleeting crush, the larger issue of whether or not you will conform to community dictates and religious practices that you don’t find relevant, or make a new life for yourself, is not going to disappear anytime soon.
Relevant Reading Material:
Sartre–”On Existentialism”
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/sartre/works/exist/sartre.htm
This is an excellent piece by Sartre, dealing with the problem of human choice, as well as how life can have meaning in a world without God. I think it’s very relevant to this discussion. Despite the source website, it’s not a Marxist opinion, except in that it’s both valuable and free–it’s one of the most famous articles of 20th Century moral philosophy in a decent (but clunky) translation.
I’m sorry I didnt see this until now. thank you for your reply. I appreciate it.