I told myself that I wasn’t going to be commenting on news this week, but the craziness going on in Beit Shemesh deserves some attention, I have been told that it is not the majority of Charedim who agree with the violence being perpetrated in the name of religion by so called “religious Jews”. I have been told that it’s a very small minority, yet I have not been sent any kol koreh’s signed by our so called Gedolim condemning such distortions of the Torah. I have seen Kol Koreh’s signed by the cream of the crop of gedolim banning concerts, the internet and lettuce – yet when school aged children are attacked for no good reason – I fail to see any outrage on behalf of our Charedi leaders.
If 99% of the Charedi community is against such acts of violence and acknowledges that this is a distortion of Torah values one may think that there would be protests, rallies or some sort of public action taken to make sure that we orthodox Jews are not bunched into the supposedly small minority of people who are doing this. Is it similar in the way that liberal apologetic’s like to tell us that the a majority of Arabs and Muslims really like the Jews and want to live in peace – you never hear those leaders confirming these thoughts.
It’s not that I’ve had a terrible amount of respect for the gedolim anyway, but it seems their silence is going to undermine their leadership andit’s not only the folks in Israel who are guilty, the American Charedim aren’t saying anything either. You don’t see protests in Williamsburg or Boro Park and this is because I think most ultra orthodox secretly agree with the underlying roots of the violence. Sure they don’t think you should spit on little girls, but maybe they agree with the war against the chilonim and modernishe ways of life and sometimes you have to go to extremes in the name of Torah.
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Natan Slifkin makes a similar point about how intolerance is baked into the haredi worldview: http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/12/spitting-on-girls-is-not-main-problem.html
On the plus side, this would be an Israeli occupation that all Jewish liberals could support!
<3
funny
Ok, so this has been uniformly condemned by all normal chareidim. See, YWN, Matzav, whatever your choice chareidi outlet is.
Last weeks Mischpacha, Hamodia, etc. were published before this went down, but carried articles criticizing the zealots over the bus incidents.
There was similar criticism last time beit shemesh ended up in the news.
You seem to be wondering why there aren’t kol korei’s. That’s a fair question.
I think the answer is, that the kol koreis never come from the gedolim, they come from the zealots, who then run around and have gedolim sign. Normal chareidim don’t run around making kol koreis.
So, in this case, the zealots aren’t going to run around collecting signatures, because they are them. But, I’m sure every gadol who signs the other ones, would sign it if you took it around.
Additionally, there is no point to a kol korei, because the zealots don’t listen to kol korei’s. Mishpacha carried articles with stories of gedolim coming to the shabbos protests and telling people to stop throwing stones, and being ignored by the zealots.
If you want a scenario to compare it to, recall that the zealots often attack the charedim as well, and the response is pretty similar to the response here. Condemnation from on blogs and magazines, yeshiva guys getting worked up over coffee, and life goes on.
For example, when they firebombed Rav Shteinman’s car. (That’s a good example, isn’t it.)
Now, you do make a good point. Although most chareidim are mad at the zealots here, they do also think that they govt is purposely annoying them by putting a government school in their neighborhood.
But, I’m not sure what the significance of that is. It’s kind of similar to the way 99% of jews are mad at the price tag people, but also do agree with the reasons, just not the response.
Are the Gedloim such buffoons that they are constantly being manipulated by their handlers? And if so, are you saying I can ignore every “Kol Korei” from the Gedolim, such as the one in the Yated from R Elyashiv, since it’s all unreliable?
I’m not saying they are unreliable. (although, I think they are a bit unreliable, inasmuch as they are signing a prewritten statement, without the ability to modify it).
I am saying they are organized by people with agendas. The gedolim don’t organize them. And unless you have the agenda people, they are never organized.
I heard directly from a Rabbi whose name often appears at the bottom of these things (who I would rather not name here) that you shouldn’t trust it unless you call the Rabbi and speak to him yourself. (And calling one Rabbi doesn’t mean that they all agreed.)
Anyone who thinks that this is only an extremist minority are naive. It’s like Chabad & “meshichisism”; you have those who outwardly express their conviction that the rebbe is moshiach and almost ALL others who believe it but don’t publicize it.
This is the future of Israel. Demographics will favor the charedim in a decade or two, and with it the collapse of Israel as a technical powerhouse as it transforms into a poverty stricken third world country. And when chareidim have the power, they will wield it just like the Taliban did.
That is my fear as well.
It really is an extremist minority, though. Significant quote from the NYT article: “In fact, it was an ultra-Orthodox-led group that claimed at least part of the credit for making Naama’s story public.” The real chareidim are alarmed and upset about what is going on and they are trying to fight back.
Having spent a fair bit of time (visiting) Beit Shemesh and RBS myself in different neighborhoods and different types of shuls, I know there are many people who believe in the importance of modesty and cannot fathom how anyone could distort Torah to the point where these sikrikim have. I know I probably won’t change your mind by saying this, but at least I can remind myself that it’s true.
As I mentioned in the prior post relating to the bus incident, what’s funny is that seemingly no Charedi Women are voicing any opinions whatsoever….whether in support or against this behavior or for the bus segregation issue.
Is as though they don’t even exist…..It’s all about Torah and testosterone.
Where are the Golda Meir’s of today? She was a mensch!
The chareidi women agree with the chareidi men. I have never found a split in the chareidi community between the men and the women.
Regarding this issue, the women condemn it as much as the men.
Really, nobody is trying to PR you. Chareidim couldn’t give a hoot what you think of them. It is only former chareidim like me on the internet who care what you think.
Dan,
You speak the truth. The premise of successful cults is righteous exclusion. I think the vast array of negative press was unexpected and will allow some of the more moderate Charedi Rabbis to come to the forefront. The forefront of what is the question.
Izzy,
That is a pretty condescending thing for you to say. Respect is a 2 way street, you know.
Dan, like most people, I generally respect those who respect me. When a Charedi in Safed tells me that “You don’t belong here” when I asked him where I could daven Minchah to say Kaddish for my Mom, I tend to lose respect. Thank G-d I found the Hari Shul. Yes, I was dressed in long pants and sleeves.
Of course, your are right and it’s not proper of me to stereotype….I’m sure there are some very respectful Charedis I didn’t meet.
I was referring to your calling it a “cult.”
Also, the guy in safed probably responded that way because you wanted to say kaddish- not because you aren’t chareidi, or were dressed differently.
In any event, why do you think that the respect has to start from the other side? Maybe they don’t respect you because you don’t respect them?
I’d best leave the Safed incident as “you had to be there” …..the fellow had major attitude….i.e., the way he said it….OK
As far as the cult part goes, here’s the definition:
1.A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
So with your experience as a Charedi Dan, there was none of that with some of the Gedolim?
You would be better to pick G-d, since we certainly do have a religious veneration and devotion directed towards G-d.
However, that is not even close to the definition of a cult. If you wish to read about cults, I would suggest you begin with “The True Believer,” by Eric Hoffer. You will find that there is nothing cultish about any sort of Judaism.
Pretty facile observation Dan. Tell you what my brother, get me reports of people spitting on Charedi girls on the way to school and I might buy your argument.
How about if I find you blogs written by jews calling for all chareidim to be killed? I don’t want to be stuck in the moderation que, so you’ll just have to google it yourself.
Then, you can consider the fact that you picked an incident which the entire chareidi world has condemned. I don’t find that very respectful on your part, nor a very honest way of discussing the issue.
Then you can consider this very thread we are on, where the baseless claim is made that chareidim haven’t condemned it en masse, when the slightest fact checking reveals that every chareidi outlet, and the agudah, have indeed done so.
Brother, don’t pretend you have any respect for us.
Well JohnL,
I hope you’re happy now. A chareidi child was beaten by a group of chilonim on the Jerusalem number 4 bus, as they made anti-chareidi remarks. The driver refused to call the police, saying “it’s not my job.”
Among several other physical attacks against chareidim in recent days. I wonder if it will make the international media. Or maybe it’s just dog bites man.
Dan:
Are you really that much of a dick that you think any sane person could be made “happy” by someone getting beaten up just because they are of a different religious stripe? In considering your posts the phrase “He doth protest too much” springs to mind. Again, The Israeli government is responsible for taking POLICE action!!!
Dan:
Are you that much of a dick that you think anyone takes pleasure in that fact that someone else was beaten because they are of a different religious stripe than you. That may acceptable in your insular little world, not in mine! In fact, reading all your comments related to this issue, the phrase “He doth protest too much” comes to mind. No, rather than start dancing because some Haredi kid was beaten, I will restate me belief that the Israeli government should seperate and cage these animals.
There are plenty of Golda Meirs today. She wasn’t a Charedi, you know.
Yeah, I know. Golda was an inspiration and one of my heroes.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/leah-klein/response-to-the-issues-in-beit-shemesh-by-yonah-klein/10150567753424384
Check it out…
I’ve seen at least one column from a Charedi writer strongly condemning the protesters. I’d like to see more though.
These guys who spit on girls should be put in the general population of a prison!
AGREED!
These are dangerous people, willing to attack little girls in the name of the Torah. If they do this to ‘outsiders’ imagine what kind of threats and violence they visit upon their fellow Charedim – things that never make the news.
Is it possible that the Gedolim are silent because they don’t want the attention of these wackados turned in their direction? Or worse, they encourage them to focus on outsiders so they don’t attack their neighbors?
I condemn it as well, http://ha-mayvinyavin.blogspot.com/ and I spoke to my Charedi rabbi and he is very upset and opposed to this as well.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/113088/President-Peres-Calls-To-Halt-Anti-Chareidi-Incitement.html
http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%A0%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%90-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%93%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%94-%D7%99%D7%A9-%D7%9C%D7%94%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%99%D7%A7-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%AA%D7%94-%D7%A0%D7%92.html
Haven’t we learned anything from Tish B’Av and all of our other tragedies? There is no excuse for this behavior. Every rabbi should call for an end to this.
heshy, for the first time i agree with you, i now think that the chareidim are a bigger threat to israel than all the surrounding arab nations put together. you saw it first, i see it now.
I can’t believe that you’ve all missed this article on VIN. It’s on track to getting even more comments than the article about Matisyahu cutting off his beard. 90% of those comments strongly agree with the writer.
http://www.vosizneias.com/97693/2011/12/27/new-york-op-ed-by-rabbi-yakov-horowitz-occupy-beit-shemesh-time-for-the-99-to-be-heard
I think the Belzer Rebbe openly stood up against this. Unfortunately no one has followed his brave stance…
Typically the charedi community allows the zealots to do what they want until these radicals threaten the charedi way of life
–i.e., the coneheaded burqa ladies who refuse to be intimate with their husbands and the fear that this currently crazy (i say currently because in 10 years it will probably be the norm given current trajectories) cult will spill over into geulah and mea shearim,
no one wants to put their neck out there otherwise.
I think the one banning lettuce was a spoof.
Originally there was one that said that the Hebrew for “Internet” had the same gimatriya of “cancer”. So someone made one that said “lettuce” = “autism”.
I think many of you are missing the point. We know many of the ‘haredi’ news outlets online are speaking out, but what we’re waiting for is the ‘Gedolim’ to do so. That is not happening…
Mad hatters….or would that be mad haters?
LOL where is the supposed good Arab majority crying out against the 1 percent Arabs who are bad? Do you see any Imams and Arab gedolim reaching out to stop terror? This isn’t a criticism, it’s just funny that nobody ever focuses on that.
Good point…but I don’t think “beheading” will make the Good Arab Majority Top-10 List of ways to get to Paradise
” isn’t a criticism, it’s just funny that nobody ever focuses on that.”
I’m pretty glad we don’t focus on that. We hold ourselves to one standard… They hold theirs to another.
Where are they? Making a lot of noise but not being reported on.
We know less than we think about the internal dynamics in that city. Just possibly, the hooligans, who really despise the true rabbinic leadership, have terrorized their neighbors into passivity.
Heshy asks on Facebook why no chaedim attended the rally today against these lunatics. It deserves a response, but I don’t normally post on facebook.
Let me ask you: If the palestinians were demonstrating against Price Tag, would you join the demonstration? Why not, don’t you condemn Price Tag?
The answer to both questions, is that you don’t join with demonstrators who also condemn yourself.
Chareidim aren’t going to join with demonstrators also think that all chareidim are leaches on society, chauvinists, bigots, and backward.
And you aren’t going to join with people who want you dead.
Good point.
Well, we even got a condemnation statement from Aguda
Arresting the spitters and those who demand women sit in the back of a public bud works for me and put them in jail. this is the purpose of government and not ineffective Rabbis.
Who gives a rats ass what any Rabbi has to say about this situation? What they think or say or don’t say is immaterial! What is material is the action taken by the government of Israel. I expect the perpetrators to be arrested and tried for assault and if it comes to it (much to the shame of the Jewish people) I expect a phalanx of IDF soldiers to escort these children to class just as the U.S. Army escorted children to class in Little Rock.
I agree, though public condemnation by all sectors of the Jewish people, especially the orthodox would be nice.
The main thing is for the government to impose a zero tolerance policy on this sort of thing. It’s not just to deal with the situation at hand, but hopefully to show by example to the citizenry that they mean business, and that all citizens of Israel must obey the law. Factions of the chareidi segment use as an excuse that they don’t acknowledge the State of Israel, and hence have a lax attitude towards its laws (I wonder if they would act so boldly if they lived in a truly anti-semitic government?). This problem must be dealt with by forcibly prosecuting these individuals as criminals.
For what it’s worth, there was an article in Yediot that was written about a family that moved out of Ramat Beit Shemet Bet because his daughters kept getting spit on and they got threatening letters in the mail. It says that father went to one of the local rabbis and asked if there was any righteousness in using force and intimidation against his daughters. The Rabbi answered that dressing immodestly is just as bad as intimidating someone by force.
Keep in mind that by immodest we are talking about not wearing stockings and having sleeves only past the elbows.
you can’t negotiate with people like this. here’s what you do, women: stand up for yourselves. carry pepper spray. if someone calls you a shiksa, you give them a heavy dose of pepper spray to the eyes. if they don’t want to see you, make them not be able to.
A+
You realize that your statement justifies the chareidim.
The current criticism is that we should not resort to violence regardless of the provocation, and who is at fault. If that is not the argument, then we are back to asking who is at fault here- and I don’t know nearly enough about this story to answer that. Nor do you.
Yet, you think pepper spray is a valid response to name calling (provocation). And some lunatic even agreed with you.
So, you don’t think attacking people physically is wrong. If you happened to be chareidi, you’d be pepper spraying the women. You are the fringe- you are the lunatic. You are the one who should be in jail with the spitters.
update: i just saw this story on CNN. today she had no problem getting to school as the press was protecting her. i still think that they need to pepper spray these heretics.
http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2011/12/who-asked-you-who-appointed-you.html#comment-form
This sadly has been going on for decades. My Mom was a survivor and got cursed and yelled at by Charedis in Jersualem in the 1960s because here arms were not entirely covered. I really don’t see a solution.
For now, the Gedolim must simply believe this will pass if nothing is said and they pretend it never happened. They most certainly realize that once they get interviewed by the first media hound, the knee-jerk media response will be to always call them the next time Charedi saliva goes flying anywhere or a woman is ask to move to the back of the bus. So, fromtheir standpoint, it makes sense to just keep mum.
The Gedolim are too bust studying Torah to be bothered.
Dressing a Charedi boy as a Holocaust Survivor with a Mogen David is a new low for any Charedi group that marketed it. Assuming it’s true.
For shame.
Hi izzy. You might feel differently if you were paying more attention to events in Israel.
For example, Channel 10 in Ashdod aired a segment under the headline “Is Beit Shemesh coming to Ashdod,” which featured remarks from citizens such as “I will take an Uzi and kill them.”
The past several weeks have been non-stop incitement against chareidim, and it has resulted in several physical attacks. You apparently don’t even know about the chareidi child who was beaten on the Jerusalem #4 bus by a gang shouting anti-chareidi remarks. (No, not spit at- beaten. Yes, a child.)
The media has been heavily involved in the incitement, conflating the actions of a few dozen yahoos, with the entire chareidi public.
I don’t really feel like taking a stand on the nazi comparison, but I don’t find it very shocking. I do find your knee jerk reaction- apparently knowing none of the facts- a bit surprising though.
Dan, what do you know that I follow and don’t follow in Israel? As if reading more media stories makes what they did OK? All I did was comment on the incitement posed by the Charedi idiots who dressed a kid and some adults as though they were being affronted by Nazis (i.e., their fellow Jews).
My reaction was anything but knee-jerk….it was based on a 70 year-old image of Holocaust horror that has been used for ill-advised political purposes by some ignorant Charedis. I guess you are too well read in Torah to know much about the Holocaust. Myself, I lost 15 aunts and uncles during the holocaust and many more 1st cousins.
Shame on them. If you don’t find it very shocking, shame on you for being so ignorant. There’s no point for further discussion on this.
You didn’t read my reply to you, above.