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Tefillin date with a Stern girl

The Yeshiva University newspaper recently featured one girls story about her mistake in having pre-marital sex. There has been much debate over the piece and whether or not it was appropriate for YU to post something so graphic. What the YU Beacon didn’t tell was the other side of the story, the guys side. She may have regretted it, but I thanked God for it in the morning.

As I’m putting my tefillin on I walk out of the room, I can’tdaven in here while I look at her in her lacy outfit sprawled out on the bed. I daven brachos and get shema in before the z’man and just cruise through davening giving thanks to the fortune of wealthy modern orthodox girls from Long Island.

I really didn’t think it would be this easy to get her in bed, we went out a few times and I maybe spent $67 total. I honestly had no idea if she was shomer or not, but I figured I could break her. All girls can be broken, especially if they went to a coed school and camp growing up. These kids didn’t know what it was like in yeshiva, shomer for them was a choice, but for us it was a way of life.

We were out at Estihana once and our legs brushed under the table and at that instant I knew I could pull off the ultimate tefillin date offense. As I stare at her now out of my periphery, I wonder how she enjoyed it, she seemed to be having fun – I promised that no one would ever find out and that she would thank me on her wedding night.

She must have wanted it real bad because she paid for the hotel room…man these Stern girls are suckers.

Comments on this entry are closed.

  • Dan

    Wow. Heshy, why are you ruining it for us?
    Or is this another example of how they will never believe what we think, no matter how many times we explain it.

    • confused

      what is it that you think, dan?

  • Laura

    She probably didn’t enjoy it because you had no idea what you were doing. If it seemed like she did she was probably faking.

    • The fact she put in effort to fake satisfies me – now if I wasn’t worth the effort, then that would be problematic.

      • Laura

        I mean, she didn’t want to make you feel bad… better to let men keep believing they are kings of this earth.

  • Dave

    I actually turned down a chance for a tefillin date recently. On my third date with one particular frum girl, she got very frisky and asked me to get an STD test before our fourth date.

    It was mighty tempting, but she wanted something short-term and I was looking for longer term. So we talked about it and I decided there would be no more dates. How’s that for a twist on stereotypes?

  • taylor

    what’s the point of putting on tefilin in the morning if you just emerged from illicit sex?

    • What’s the point of putting on tefillin if you just told loshon harah, missed z’man krias shema or didn’t wash negel vasser?

      The beauty of Judaism is that you can sin and that doesn’t take away from the fact you just did a mitzvah.

      This was really just a fictional response to the YU article that’s been going around. These events didn’t actually happen, I don’t really go out on dates anymore.

      • U Avi

        Exactly! regarding “just told loshon harah, missed zman krias shema or didnt wash negel vasser? “

        • CK

          Except you don’t get kareis for those. I think that’s the difference.

          • Eli

            Aside from the fact that Lashon HaRa’ is D’Orayta, what you do between you and God is between you and God (and if He wants to give me Karet, so be it). The commandments that dictate how to treat others (like Lashon HaRa’) are much more critical, yet somehow consensual (albeit premarital) sex is the worst sin in the books. Time to reorient our priorities.

            • U Avi

              Shkoyach!

          • Gartel Man

            If you read the entire Torah, you will find not one place where it says that two unmarried people (man and woman) cannot have se..x. The closest thing is it says if two people are discovered having se..x in a field, then certain things happen to them. I think that has more to do with the public and discovered nature of the act in that circumstance, not the act itself. If the Torah wanted to prohibit se..x between two unmarried people, it should have just said so, like it does about so many other things.

            • Dan

              Indeed you are correct. It is not d’oraisah. It is only d’oraisah if she is a niddah.

              I actually don’t know if it is a d’rabbanan even. Perhaps someone else who reads this does know.

              However, your statement: “If the Torah wanted to prohibit se..x between two unmarried people, it should have just said so, like it does about so many other things,” is a bit oversimple, since it may indeed be an issur d’rabbanan, and anyway, there are plenty of things which are assur d’oraisah and aren’t written in the torah.

              Unless you don’t believe in a torah sh’beal peh, in which case you probably don’t believe that torah is divine, in which case we can’t really have a discussion since we don’t share any premises.

              • Gartel Man

                I am not aware of anything that is prohibited and is not at least referenced in the torah. Torah sh’beal peh (TSBP) does not create new mitzvot or prohibitions where none exist. The classic example of TSBP is tefillin. The torah just says “ut al yadecha utotafot bein einecha.” The TSBP tells us what that is exactly. The one contrary argument I’ve heard on this point is niddah and mikvah. But you would think given that there is no actual biblical prohibition on this, it would not have assumed such a massive place of importance in the area of observance. There are literally dozens of clear torah mitzvot that are given little or no regard. Read parshat kedoshim and tell me you do all those things.

                • Dan

                  Nidda and mikva is a terrible example. The passuk says “v’el nidda b’nida tumassah…”, and in another place says the tumah lasts until she goes to a mikva (v’shutaf b’mayim is a mikva).

                  I do all the things in parshas kedoshim that apply to non kohanim in chutz l’aretz. Give me an example of what you think I don’t.

                  • Gartel Man

                    Check out Viyikra, 19, verses 9-10 (while technically you are correct that these apply only in Israel, I believe there is an underlying mitzvah here to leave over from what you have for the poor), verse 11 (all three prohibitions), verse 13 (again, all three prohibitions), verse 14, verse 15, verse 16, verse 17, verse 18 (no grudges!!), verse 31, verse 32, verse 33 (do you know anybody whose really machmir on this?), verse 34, verse 35 and verse 36 (how about any chumras on this?). My point is simply that here are a slew of very clear and specific torah injunctions and I don’t think anybody ever talks about them, worries about them, writes scathing announcements against people who do not obey them, come up with chumras on these, throw rocks at people who don’t obey them or even pay much attention to them. But when you get to tznius and issues of women and men being in social settings together, none of which is mentioned in the torah, you have the frum world doing somersaults about these things. Something is totally out of whack! I think if the “observant world” was known for its meticulous observance of these things, as opposed to its fanatical observance to how they dress and what women wear and do, this world would be a lot better place.

                    • Don’t know where you are getting these snap judgments about the “observant world” from; where I grew up I was taught all of those laws. In fact, while in fact I don’t remember being taught about tznius in elementary school at all (of course, a girl probably had a different experience), I remember being taught these laws over and over again.

                    • Gartel Man

                      Lex- when was the last time you heard anybody say that somebody wasn’t frum because he/she did not have just weights and measures, or held grudges or challenged a convert? But if a woman wears pants or short sleeves in most “frum” communities there’s a whole hue and cry about it. I’m not saying these things in kedoshiim are not taught. I’m saying that relative to tznius and other gender related issues, they are not given much weight.

                    • Dan

                      As lex luthor stated: We learned all those things.

                      As far as your point of when I would consider someone “frum,” I generally consider someone frum is they keep shabbos kashrus and nidda.

                      However, whether I call someone frum is really not relevant to anything, since I might not eat from their kitchen anyway unless I actually trust them.

                      I am quite horrified though, at the way you cavalierly make up new d’oraisah’s of “leaving over from what you have for the poor.” While certainly there is a d’oraisah to support poor people beyond the mitzvos of leket shikcha and peah, it is beyond absurd for you to decide that there is some specific chiyuv of “leaving over.”

                      (Not to mention that I have no idea of what it would mean. Am I supposed to not bill hours if I forget to input them the first time? Should I not bill hours when I am in the corner office?)

                      You’re not saying good.

                    • Gartel Man

                      Dan (the Main Man)- what I’m saying is that the Torah shows an extreme sensitivity to poor people, beyond just charity, and I think we should carry that sensitivity to the same extremes that some (most) frum folks carry the considerably less clear notions of tznius. I don’t care who you personally consider frum, I’m talking about general societal norms of acceptance within the frum community of what is frum. I have to say that I’m totally blown away by your statement that you consider somebody frum based solely on whether they keep shabbos, kosher and niddah. They keep 3 out of 613 and their good in your book? How about somebody who does these three things- honors their parents, welcomes converts and is scrupulous about their business ethics? Not good enough? Who are you to decide that? The point I’m making is that we all tend to judge people based on certain bright lines, when in fact there are a ton of more subjective criteria (honesty, charity) that are no less important but are almost never used in judging or characterizing people.

                    • Dan

                      I see, so you think we should be just as stringent regarding supporting the poor as we are regarding having appropriate tzitzis.

                      I am a bit taken aback by that charge. I don’t know why you think that we aren’t already stringent regarding the poor.

                      Why don’t you try going to any non-jewish neighborhood and knocking on doors, telling them you are collecting for someone in China who is sick. See how much you get.

                      Yet, routinely, we give money to people collecting for people in Israel who are sick or getting married. The amount of charity our community gives absolutely dwarfs any other community in the world that I am aware of.

                      Next, you complain about my standard of “frum.” As I stated, my definition has no practical application, so I don’t see how I could do any harm by picking it.

                      But, since you insist, I will point out that halacha does rank different mitzvos differently.

                      I specifically refer to the mitzva of shabbos. The shulchan aruch in hilchos shechita says that someone who is mechallel shabbos in public, even if it is only l’teiavon, has the same din as a mumar l’hachis and an oved avodah zara. See YD 2:5.

                    • Gartel Man

                      I don’t agree with your whole premise that some mitzvot are more important than others. See sanhedrin 48b and the orech hashulchan, siman dalet. Some punishments are more explicit (as are some rewards- ie, kivud av v’aim), but that does not them more important. If shabos had the exaggerated significance you ascribe to it, why can it be violated for pekuach nefesh? I just think we have gotten far away from the spirit and the torah.

                    • Dan

                      I am confused now.
                      I cited you a shulchan aruch, which ascribes a different halacha for one who is mechallel shabbos versus one who is a mass murder. What better proof could I bring?

                    • Gartel Man, I disagree with your premise. When a frum person is caught doing anything wrong it is the talk of the mikva. Cheating on taxes is no exception. The only difference is that people who steal are able to hide it better than people who dress immodestly. So if you find more frum people being caught cheating on their taxes than dressing not tznius etc., that’s why. Not necessarily because of skewed values.

                      Also, there is an obvious difference between refraining from doing a mitzva and doing an aveira. It’s understood that the second is more damaging to society.

                    • Gartel Man

                      Lex and Dan- I can surmise (although I’m sure you’ll each tell me how many non-religious friends you have) from your attitudes that you do not know a lot of people who really want to be closer to Jewish observance but are taken aback by the frum community’s near obsession with things that are not even mentioned in the Torah or part of the torah sh’beal peah mesorah- tznius and the separation of men and women in social settings. There are many people who have a true yearning for the religion they read about in the torah (where men and women are not separated, where women are described as beautiful- how would somebody know that if they were all covered up? where men and women have relationships of all kinds) and then when they get close up to the communities that claim they are all about Jewish observance, the things they hear about most often are these other silly issues. My advise to the frum community is stop worrying about black hats and long skirts and which part of the arm a woman is exposing and start making Jewish observance about the quality of your character and your relationship to god and your fellow humans.

                    • Dan

                      “(although Im sure youll each tell me how many non-religious friends you have)”

                      Correct. I will tell you that I am a student in a law school with 1800 odd students, and maybe 15 are religious jews. Most of my friends are not frum. My best law school buddy told me I was the first orthodox jew he ever even saw. And another one is a conservative girl from California who even sort of keeps kosher.

                      In addition, I live in that community, where most of the frum people here are much to the left of me. The rabbi is a YCT graduate. And many fall into the exactly the camp you are making.
                      So you assumption is incorrect.

                      We thank you much for your advice of how to practice Judaism. When you tell me that you are trying to practice halachic Judaism, which includes all the things you don’t like, then you can have an opinion on the best way to do it.
                      (Although, if I am correct: you are a former yeshiva guy, just like me.)

                      And I still don’t get your issue with what is explicit in the torah or not. Halachic Judaism doesn’t care how explicit the source is- we care about what the halacha is.

                    • Gartel Man

                      Not a “former yeshiva guy.” Sorry. Interesting that you are a law student, but fail to grasp the concept of explicitness. If something is explicit, then it is less subject to interpretation, societal influences and other subjective interferences. You use the term “what the halacha is.” Some halacha, primarily those relating to tznius and mixing of genders, are not only not based on any explicit torah references, but they are wildly susceptible to emotional and societal biases. Don’t forget that it was only men who made these laws- try having a women look at the texts and decide how much clothing she should wear in 95 degree heat, and I think you’ll get a very different result.

                    • Dan

                      If we’re going to have an intelligent discussion, we need to agree on the premises.

                      If the premise is that we torah is from G-d, including the oral law, then it makes absolutely no difference whether something is explicit or not.

                      (And actually, in common law, it does not make any difference if something is explicit. In fact, that is the main difference between common law which we have here in America, and civil law- that the law is not codified.)

                      So, we need to either work with that premise, or we should be arguing about that premise.

                      But if we are arguing about whether torah is from G-d, I have no idea what tznius has to do with it. We should be talking about whether we believe in a G-d at all, and if we do, what kind of G-d would it be, and what proof there is to revelation on Mount Sinai, etc.

                      I will note now, though:
                      A. I assume you are agreeing about the previous issue of whether my community cares about charity enough.
                      B. Halachic Judaism is a lot harder for men than for women. You can’t cherry pick one issue and extrapolate from it that it was made by men who were out to get the women.

                    • Gartel Man

                      It is very difficult to communicate this way because you are carrying so many assumptions and preconceived notions and as a result keep missing my point. Put aside fornow the issue of divine revelation. My pointisthat if a law is not stated explicitly there is more room for debate about its application. Tznius is a perfect example. There is no explicit reference in the torah to it or how itis tobe observed. Hence, it is the subject of interpretation. How do you know how long a sleeve or a hem should be? Various rabbis at various times bring their interpretation to it. Once that process begins, all kind of other factors come into play. On the other, when there is an explicit text that gives guidance, at least we have a textual foundation for the application of the law. Rabbis over the centuries have taken a small “remez” in a text and in some cases turned those things into huge things based on not a lot of basic textual foundation. When i did that same thing in an earlier post with you regarding “peah” etc you jumped all over that. I am sure you will say that is because i am not a scholar like these rabbis. Well that is where i have a problem. Even torah scholars were just men and are therefore subject to all the limitations that every human is subject to. So when a rabbi says 7 year old boys and girls cannot be in the same classeoom, what text is that based on? None. It is based on that rabbis own emotional fears and limitations. I believe too much of frum practice is based on these types of fears and not on text. How about black hats? What text is that nased on? But the way the frum world venerates that practice you would think it was part of the ten commandments. Why does any of this matter? Because istrongly believe that all of these essentially foreign notions ( how black is the hat, how long is the sleeve, how high is the mechitsa) have taken the emphasis away from the true spirit if the torah that is found in the torah itself, not in a book written by men who are subject to the limitations of their humanity and their societies. You understand that the rabbinic judaism we have today did not exist until after the second temple and would be largely unrecognizable to those who lived at that time.

                    • Dan

                      Ok, to respond to that point:

                      Here are my premises:
                      A. The torah was given to us by G-d on Mount Sinai.
                      B. The oral torah was also given to us by G-d on Mount Sinai.
                      C. G-d intended for the rabbis to be the interpreters of the torah, and for us to listen to them.
                      D. There is no sanhedrin today, so what the rabbis say does not have the same binding authority.
                      E. The rabbis are good people acting in good faith, albeit they are people.
                      F. G-d still controls the world, and will exercise some degree of control in making sure that we don’t get too far off track.
                      G. Sometimes I personally think I have a good idea about what we should or should not be doing, but I generally think that I will be better off in the long run if I do what the experts- that is to say the rabbis- say to do.

                      So, with those premises;
                      I concur that some rules have less written explicitly and some more.

                      I do not concur that the more explicit ones have less room for interpretation. In fact, even ones which have a lot written in the torah, or in the gemara, still have a lot of vagueness, which needs to be explained.

                      I concur that the rules of tznius are less explicit in the torah than some others, but I believe they are relatively explicit in the gemara, and that there was little room for interpretation over the last 1500 years.

                      I concur that there is no basis for black hats, but I do not concur that we put much emphasis on it. To me, it is a refusal to adopt modern morals. But that is a separate discussion.

                      I do not concur that these things like tznius have taken away from the true spirit of torah. We probably do not agree on what is the true spirit of torah.

                      The true spirit of torah is to do what G-d wants us to do. That is it. All the rest is commentary (like why should we do what G-d wants us to do, etc.)

                      “You understand that the rabbinic judaism we have today did not exist until after the second temple and would be largely unrecognizable to those who lived at that time”

                      I do not agree with that that.
                      And I should say, I am probably much more qualified to have an opinion on that. I have spent most of my life studying the Judaic culture which existed then. I have read their literature extensively, and consider myself somewhat of a expert (among the crowd on this website anyway).

                    • Samael

                      Quick comment regarding the point about rabbinic Judaism – I’ve taken several history classes on the subject, and the consensus is that rabbinic Judaism began after the destruction of the Second Temple, but was not widely practiced until the Geonic period. That said, rabbinic Judaism *is* Judaism, today – there really are no other options. So when it began is more of an historical question than a religious one; it doesn’t have any real bearing on how we practice today.

                    • Anonymous

                      FYI Gartel Man – R’ Moshe Feinstein, as well as several other latter day poskim, have defined base-line “observant” Jews as those who keep kosher, shabbos, and taharas hamishpacha (nidda). Its nor arbitrary, it actually is the societal norm.

  • ghottistyx

    See why I hate dating Jewish girls? Even the frei ones have too much guilt for me to deal with.

    It’s like Larry David once said. Bill Clinton’s biggest mistake is that he’s never gotten some from a Jewish girl. The first thing you need to know is that you can’t just get a BJ from a Jewish girl without there being some consequence involved. Like (said in faux-JAP voice) YOU THINK YOU CAN JUST GET A BJ FROM ME?

    • Anonymous

      these comments always make me wonder what guys like you are doing 4 the girls

    • BZ

      Since when is Monica Lewinski not Jewish?

      • blah blah

        since her mother isn’t

        • confused

          her mother is…

      • ghottistyx

        No, that before Monica, he never got some from a Jewish girl. With Monica, he learned the HARD way what happens when you expect free sexual favors from a Jewish girl (or free anything from a Jew in general)

  • Anon

    They took the Beacon article down! YU can pretend all it wants but this stuff is happening with its students way more than it thinks. Censoring articles and sweeping it under the rug is only going to do more bad than good….

    • I wish I could believe you, but have you seen the average YU student, they are such big nerds who probably liken hand holding to getting some.

      • Anon

        True, I guess the last one I fooled around with went to Landers…

  • Steve

    I’m sorry, but what is a tefillin date? Is it a date that ends with sleeping together and the guy gets up in the morning and davens there in the hotel room or wherever they are?

    • Laura

      Yup. For going to a minyan somewhere in the morning

    • ghottistyx

      The adage is “you bring your tefillin with you on a date because you’re not sure where you’re going to wake up the next morning”. The implication is that although you have no problem with fornication, you still are frum enough to be makpid on Tefillin. I’ve mostly heard it used to refer to the level of religiosity on the UWS.

  • Anonymous

    They pulled it. Does anyone have copy to share?

  • Hannah

    I feel sorry for this girl. At least if you’re gonna do it, really ENJOY it. It sounds like she gave something special to someone who really wasn’t all that interested in her. This is what happens when you elevate sex to something almost mythical in nature. I’m not saying everyone should treat it like it’s nothing, but now she’s been made so curious and excited, and she made a wrong choice just based off of wondering what it was like, rather than choosing a good partner (married or not).

    • CM in CH

      The problem with women is that they always play the victim. It’s not his fault she forgot to enjoy herself.

  • Old timer

    This is not news. Stern girls have been renting hotel rooms with YU guys since 1954.

  • Dan

    They took down the story from the Beacon. And I can’t even get it on google cache.

    • Dov’s link above works.

      • Dan

        Because it is back up anyway. Apparently, the Beacon decided to break off from YU over this.

        Really, these college kids are so cute. They had this snarky comment about “censorship” on the website. They fail to realize that every publication will always be censored. Unless the editors are now going to print every article submitted, it will still be censored. And somehow, I trust YU to censor in a better fashion than a couple of college kids.

        (I’m also wondering how the current leadership who will be gone next year is making decisions like that for the paper. Maybe they should just go start a blog instead.)

  • The story is now up at new voices magazine, unredacted.

    http://www.newvoices.org/community?id=0049

  • Finally Free

    There is also a link from The Forward’s website about this whole issue.

  • Dina

    The most important matter here is whether she went to the mikva beforehand. We need to protect our mensch against tumah.

    • Dan

      Because it is only assur for the man, right?

      • Lol. Maybe she meant something like “our inner mensch.”

  • CM in CH

    Her entire article is a crock of crap. It certainly wasn’t written like a girl who’d just had her first time. If you ask me, she’s a pro…if this is even real.

  • David Mayberg

    Why would anyone spend 67 dollars to get laid

    • Where on earth are you staying for $67 a night in Manhattan – try 367 bucks for a cheap place

      • Tinok ShenishBeth

        I’ve stayed in NYC for $75… You’d like it, Heshy. With the bugs, assorted wildlife, and conditions in the bathrooms – it’s just like camping.

        • U Avi

          I once stayed in a hotel in northern michigan for 30 bucks!!!! Hahaha it was a reallll classy place.

  • Anonymous

    Whoever wrote this is going to hell.

    • please explain and don’t tell me you masturbated to it – because I tried to keep that from happening

  • Glatt some questions

    This is not news. Stern girls have been renting hotel rooms with YU guys since 1954.
    ——————————-
    The news is that some woman decided that her escapades were worth publishing. Some things are best left unsaid.

  • taylor

    What’s the point of a tefilin date? If you did such a harsh aveirah with a woman, do you really think that laying tefilin will atone for your sin?

    • The beauty of Judaism is that it’s all about a per sin attitude – the yetzer harah wants you to think like that, but holy peeps know they can sin and do mitzvos at the same time.

      • taylor

        True. In our faith, we repent not by confession or animal sacrifices (we used to do that) but by our words and thoughts, vowing not to do it again.

        But suppose I did not bring my tefilin to the woman’s home. This could encourage me to return to my home instead of spending the night in hers.

        • Dan

          Confession is certainly part of it still, as explicit in the yom kippur machzor. Maybe you mean public confession.

          And I look forward to animal sacrifices. I don’t buy into your modern value system.

          • Samael

            It’s not a question of *values*, it’s a question of *enjoyment.* I mean, a big barbecue as religious ritual? That’s a brilliant idea in my book! I suppose not everyone finds it aesthetically pleasing; still, I’m surprised more people don’t prefer sacrifices to prayer.

  • confused

    dan is smart

    • U Avi

      Please don’t encourage him, if I am correct this is the same dan who talks about how great of a law school he got in to and how smart he is.

      • Dan

        lol!

        • U Avi

          Am I right Dan???? haha, if I am and you just did Lol then that makes me happy.

          • Dan

            Can we get a link to whatever you are referring to?
            (I am the Dan who posted in this post under “Dan,” or at least most of the posts on this post by Dan.)

  • WACKY MAC & CHOCOLATE PIZZA

    Will someone tell me: Is the article in the YU Beacon Truth or Fiction? Do YU students actually do this????????????

  • The funniest thing is that anyone thinks this article isn’t fiction that badly needed to go through a writing work shop. I would also bet someone $100 that this was written by a virgin.

    • ipitythefoo

      agree. screams virginity.

  • Dave

    Heshy, this post is getting some ppl thinking. They want to hook up with some of the commentators and have sex with them. Can u make a section for Jewish guys and girls to get one nite stance ?! Thanks

    • I can tell this much: Many commenters have hooked up from this site, so my best suggestion for you is to start commenting under a real name – interacting with the commenters on facebook and you may also get some with a fellow frum satire reader. I can honestly say that there have been dozens of tefillin dates between fans – so get that game on.

  • Abigail

    Even if premarital sex is not a issur d’oraisah, as some have pointed out, do you subscribe to the Reform philosophy? Are none of you aware that Torah Sheba’al Peh forbids sex between unmarried people in modern times? Even if it WASN’T even an issur D’rabanan, it is NOT something that is acceptable, because it is not the minhag yisrael. There is just no way to justify premarital sex among Jews if you’re a Torah Jew. If you’re not a Torah Jew, well then…it’s hard for me to help you there.
    *I am not giving my opinion on the article itself.

    • Reb Noach

      Wow- Abigail- I don’t know where to begin. “Do you subscribe to the Reform philosophy?” Do you even know what that is, or do you just call people Reform when they don’t agree with you? “Torah Sheba’al peh forbids sex between unmarried people in modern times?” Really? Where does it say that? You mean in ancient times it was permitted? “It is not something that is acceptable because it is not minhag yisrael.” Oh, I see- it’s just a minhag now, like whether one says tachnun on a certain day. Boy, this is one whopper of a minhag, with all the time and effort put in to make sure there is no mixed dancing, 7 year old kids not in co-ed classes, women wearing cover-up clothes in the 95 degree heat. You see, when you sit down and really analyze this issue, you see that it hardly rises to the level of shabbat, kosher, tzedaka, chesed or just about any other law. It’s based on pre-Victorian fears and prejudices and not a lot more.

      • Guest

        Your an idiot dude.

        • B.BarNavi

          NO U

          Way to address his points.

  • Gartel Man

    A little late to the game

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