I got a call from an old friend the other day and he started it off by asking me in a very distressed voice if I knew anyone who had been divorced twice and was under 30. To make him feel better I said yes and then said “I can’t believe you’re f$%^ing thinking about getting divorced I thought this was the love of your life. To which he responded in the affirmative, but that something had happened and it was tearing him a part from her. The following is some conversation some part advice, but I think it would be a great mitzvah for you folks to comment on the topic because I don’t think he’s alone.
My friend is an extremely nice (I think his first wife saw him as a pushover and proceeded to berate him in public and be a general bitch) modern orthodox machmir guy, he is extremely driven and enjoys his financial career. He married a girl who was some sort of teacher at the time looking for work as a full time public school teacher.
To make a long story short, she has stated that she doesn’t want to work anymore because he makes enough money to fulfill all of their needs. He was alarmed, but he said something along the lines of saving for a house and for the children when they come. She refused to hear it and said something along the lines of criticsm towards his seemingly frugal attitude and even told him that he really didn’t need to balance the checkbook or look at credit card statements every month. Basically they both look at money in two different ways, which is dangerous as it tends to kill many marriages.
I turned on my frum judgmental stereotyping self for a minute and said that I bet that her parents had paid for her entire schooling and she had never lived an independent day in her life. Her parents also probably paid her bills, apartment and other stuff you cannot afford on a salary of 12k a year. Apparently last year she lived on her own for the first time paying her own bills and such (she’s 27 – which means she’s got the financial smarts of an 18 year old or even worse)
The problem from my friends vantage is not that she doesn’t want to work, but more along the lines of what she does want to do and that is nothing. It;s not like she’s quiting her job and going to volunteer at a homeless shelter, hospice or Tomchei Shabbos. She wants to sit on the beach all summer long and do nothing. My friend is bothered by her lack of passion for work and its rewards and he is horrified by her statements that basically say she’s not prepared for the financial responsibility of children and all that entails. I don’t blame him, she sounds like she belongs at the Occupy Protests except they at least seek something and she seeks nothing.
He keeps saying “how was I to know” they dated ten months and there were no red flags. There are always red flags, but he didn’t see them, blinded by love maybe, but chances are he couldn’t have ever known this would happen. It I didn’t have to work, I would be the active dude in the world – except that I love work and the freedoms it affords to physically make your own money.
So what’s a guy to do? He suggested they see a financial adviser, she refused. He suggested they see a Rav, she refused. He suggested they see a marriage counselor, she refused. He suggested that she suggest a solution and she sees no problem. I suggested that he mention the graveness of the situation by telling her that he’s even entertaining thoughts of divorce. He said he couldn’t do that yet. I don’t think he’s being stern enough with her and I don’t think she understands how much it’s tearing him up inside. I think that even a mention of divorce is liable to bring any newly married frum 27 year old girl to her knees (shame they don’t give good head) and that it may wake her up to the possible of at least talking to someone about her refusal to work or do anything productive with her time.
Now what do you think?
{ 109 comments… read them below or add one }
the only solution would be to get some professional help. He’s not going to convince her either way, and she needs the sense knocked into her from a trusted third-party.
I know someone who can help, his name is rabbi shraga sherman from philadelphia, a shliach for chabad of the main line who is also a proffesional marriage councselor, he is one of the best out there, look him up
I say they should stay married and have a baby. A baby makes a woman more responsible and less lazy because she’s forced to care for someone other than herself. And he won’t feel like she’s doing nothing if she’s tired and pregnant.
what a load of BS. It drives me mad when people try to find another channel to deflect from the core issue. I say use BC until this is sorted (pending Rabbi approval of course)!
You are right, it makes a woman more responsible. Unless she then decides to outsource her child-raising to nannies, which requires even more money
Having a baby is the worst idea. Then, when and if the marriage ends in divorce, there are now children involved. The root of the problems must be fixed before children are brought into this world.
If you’re marriage is not strong to begin with a a baby will tell you apart. I have heard of so many people getting divorced after deciding that a baby is the answer to their marital woes. A baby is bracha, that should be brought into this world by two people who mutually love and respect each other, which is clearly not the case here.
That is exactly correct. Having a baby now would be the worst possible thing to do.
So your solution for a woman who might be irresponsible enough to not want to do anything to work or be responsible for herself should have a baby she can now neglect? Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me…
OMG! You do not have babies to FIX problems!! I dont know how to stress this enough! If he is even considering slightly a divorce the she ebtter gett on birth control fast or he better perfect his “pulling out” skills because babies only creat more problems and stress. Obviously they are amazing for a stable couple but if there are issues…no babies! They will only be a casualty!
Agreed!
There’s a core question here. Is the reason that he doesn’t want to get divorced because:
a) He truly loves her
or
b) He doesn’t want to be the guy with 2 divorces
If it’s B, then it’s not a good enough reason to stay married. But if it’s A, then maybe it’s worth saving.
+1
Therapy might fix things down the road, but right now, you have to make a decision. What do you want? Don’t be embarrassed to answer that question honestly.
in my experience these type of things can be worked out. He needs to tell her that he loves her and wants to work things out and have a strong marriage, but she must accept that he is having issues in the marriage and they need to see a professional marriage counselor. this issue is totally workable and fixable. Secondly – to the man- there will be issues in a marriage and you can not just divorce from them everytime something scares you or shocks you. she loves you too and she will eventually understand the importance of seeing someone, it happened to me too. Perhaps a friend of hers can help understand the situation is serious.
To the person who said having a baby is the answer, that is the worst advice. I know way too many people, who like you thought that was a grand idea only to end up divorced from the incredible stress having a baby puts on your relationship. A baby is a bracha, that should stem from a union of mutual love and respect. It is unfair to all parties involved to bring a baby into any marriage that is on the rocks.
In my HO, as a woman, it sounds like this girl/woman has zero respect for her husband and how hard he works. She also sounds incredibly spoiled and selfish. It sounds to me like only a very skilled therapist can help her and thgis relationship. I also don’t think she realizes the seriousness of the situation. It’s obvious he needs to be more adamant in the way he communicates that.
It seems as if he has repeatedly tried to resolve the situation and she has refused to do anything about it. Granted we only know his side of the story but he needs to bring up divorce as a possibility if she is not willing to work on resolve the situation. Its not like hes asking her to be a long distrance trucker any job would probably help or for that matter any kind of activity. The deeper issue seems to be her over all attitude which appears to be a sense of entitlement. Which sadly may be her parent’s doing.
Is she hot?
My question too. She should be entitled not to work as long as she maintains a stict regimen of twice daily workouts–keep the body tight–limited caloric intake and vigorous sexual activity (which she is to initiate when he gets home). Basically, as long as her job is staying hot and satisfying him, this scenario can work if he actually makes enough money.
Probably, or at least a not hot Chanie… She sounds like she thinks she is a trophy wife.
Professional help needed. The end.
I feel your friends pain. If I were to see them, I would want to hear her perspective too. I have a TON of questions that I would want to ask before i would advise what to do. If she truly refuses to see anyone, then it seems that she is not committed to the relationship. Even if she thinks nothing is wrong, if she cannot respond to his ernest desire to improve the situation as he sees it, than her commitment is low. I am also curious how he presents the issue to her.
Like!
DO NOT HAVE A BABY. That is the worst idea anyone ever came up with. Better to get divorced twice with no kids, then have a kid and get divorced.
Either tell the wife to go to counseling or get divorced. Work out your problems first, learn to communicate or forget it.
AGREED!!! As per my comment above!! Babies do not fix problems!!
A husband’s friend should not be bad-talking his wife to him! All you know is what he told you!
Before he even contemplates divorce he needs to read and re-read and implement the book Garden of Peace by Rabbi Shalom Arush. This book is 100% emes and should be read by every man, whether he thinks he has a perfect marriage or not. Seriously, if I were you I would literally run to your nearest frum bookstore and buy this book and then run and hand it to him and force him to read it! Sounds crazy, I know, but I know from personal experience that everything in that book is true, and very important to know to preserve a marriage.
So what if she has some character flaw? Who says she has to be perfect? Who says he is perfect? If they got married, they are meant to be together. Everyone has fights and disagreements and complaints about each other. That doesn’t mean they need to think about divorce. He has to understand the rules of shalom bayis — then things will be much easier. Read Garden of Peace and you’ll understand what I mean.
“If they got married, they are meant to be together.”
WRONG. Absolutely WRONG. Plenty of people enter into bad marriages for a variety of reasons. Divorce is a serious step and should not be taken lightly, but neither should anyone be trapped in a loveless (or worse, abusive) marriage simply for the sake of staying married.
Honestly, this story reminds me of an episode of Friends…but I won’t go there. It sounds like this guy’s wife is too immature to be married to anyone. If she refuses to seek professional help, he should divorce her. The right woman will be able to see past the stigma of 2 divorces and give him a chance. (Hey, I’d date him!)
Agreed — in some rare circumstances, such as abuse, divorce may be necessary. But in many cases people think divorce will be an answer to their problems, when really it makes their problems worse. And in the next relationship, the same issues arise, because the serial divorcer has not changed his/her outlook or behavior. May Hashem help us.
Who are you to judge when a divorce is “necessary.” There are people who simply grow apart, but stay friends, there are people who are neglectful of their partners, or simply too selfish… I agree that divorce should be a LAST resort, but as people live longer and longer, I don’t think divorce is going to be as “rare” as we would all like to see, and I don’t think you get to judge the situation of others like that.
I second that about Garden of Peace. This is a truly wonderful book that has done a ton of good for my marriage and my friends’ marriages. It’s very hard to implement the advice without slipping up, but it’s a really important way to look at marriage. (Note: women will never understand why this books works, never discuss what it says with them).
That said, go talk to a Rabbi who you are close to who specializes in marriage issues. Right now.
Just for perspective, I have heard some very frum rabbis tell men that it is better to not be shomer shabbot/kashrut than to get divorced (although there were kids in all of these situations).
And do not have kids, I can’t believe anyone even suggested that.
Finally, virtually every couple I know has some bad problems at the start of their marriage and it usually feels “divorce-able” so don’t necessarily give up on the marriage.
It may take something extreme like creating a separate bank account that you put your salary into and don’t give her access to (don’t do that without asking a Rabbi), but don’t give up yet. I know of one couple who had very different money attitudes who just kept separate accounts and split living expenses (although both were working in that case).
yes, my husband has read this GofP book, but he doesn’t refer to it often. Furthermore, he is so into his gaming world that he doesn’t even feel a need to see a couple counsellor. what do you do when husband totally rejects the idea?
Getting into counseling if you feel you need it is a necessary. Try talking to his rabbi or whoever else he respects, and if you feel you need it, do whatever you can to before your marriage suffers (more). And sometimes doing it through a good rabbi is as helpful as a counselor, depending on the rabbi or counselor.
Several years ago, my husband and I went away for Pesach. We had our two children under the age of 2 with us. I was so thankful my husband offered to go away that year. The couple next door to us had children about the same ages and brought the nanny along, as well. They did not stop arguing and the older child escaped the room and got on the elevator. Nobody noticed. So having a child and help will not make things better. Neither party could be bothered to raise these gifts from Hashem.
I would suggest that your friend look at the relationship his wife’s parents have with each other. Do they treat each other with respect? Does his mother in law work? Does his wife have a friend or relative who is stirring things up? Does she really not want to work as a teacher? Does she have a clue about how much it costs to raise a frum child and send him/her to yeshiva and to camp?
Lastly, does she want out of the marriage and is forcing him to make the move? He should ask flat out if she wants to make it work.
Does she remember how badly being single sucks?
Your poor friend appears to be a bad picker. I wish him hatzlacha.
Another worthwhile thing to read (though I won’t give it the same endorsement as Garden of Peace) is Career of Happiness by Rabbi Avigdor Miller. Contrary to what you and some of your commenters are saying, he says never say the word get — never mention divorce because of some argument.
I am going to play devil’s advocate. Why does he feel this is so terrible? Plenty of women play golf, shop, “do lunch” or whatever, especially second wives. According to your description, it doesn’t affect their relationship directly. Does he still enjoy being with her, talking to her? Is it mainly that the husband is dissatisfied with his wife’s lack of ambition or desire to help others–perhaps he can learn to accept her as she is.
I can understand the concern about savings and finances, though, especially if they are going to have children. But the two things need to be separated. Maybe he can be in control of the finances and give her a budget, since she doesn’t want to work with him to make financial decisions.
No, why should he work while she sits around and does NOTHING? If he’s paying the bills then go work for crap at a frum school. Their teachers work part time.
The above comment was a good one. Whilst it doesn’t sound good, it is not necessarily a reason to get a divorce. Maybe there are deeper issues going on.
if he is seriously considering divorce because of this he owes it to her to tell her that directly, and give her an opportunity to work on their issues with this in mind. Because otherwise, then what? He’s going to wait for things to build and build until finally one day he is like “I can’t take it anymore, let’s get divorced” without talking about it beforehand?
As for people saying “just have a kid” that’s a terrible idea- kids cost even more money, and they should never be the solution to any problem, unless the problem is that you really want kids and are prepared to have them but don’t have them yet.
o and I see what you did there re: occupy. I support occupy and I have a job and don’t expect any handouts.
I think most people in occupy who don’t have jobs don’t want a “handout” either- they want the opportunity to work for a living, which is not a very prevalent opportunity right now. How is the opportunity to work for a living a “handout” unless having a job at all is now a “handout” from our wealthy overlords?
I do believe in free college for all, not because people should get handouts, but because without it we are an oligarchy, not a meritocracy. As a college prof I am horrified at the number of my students dropping out/delaying graduation directly because of the tuition increase we were forced to instate because the state cut our budget by 15%. Rich people shouldn’t have more of an opportunity to get ahead just because of the wealth of the parents they were born to. That is the antithesis of the American dream.
/steps off soapbox.
Hear, hear!
I agree! This is why it took me until I was 35 to get a bachelors. Once I was dirt poor, though, the government paid for my college, but people should be able to get living wage jobs, not just people with advanced degrees or connections.
AGREED!!!
Yes!
First of all, she has problems. Serious problems. The woman most definitely needs therapy. All healthy adults have a need to produce and succeed. Secondly, if he attracted such a woman it means that he has some issues to work on, too. We attract who we are and what we are. And not wanting to get divorced becauuse being twice divorced under the age of 30, then that’s just plain silly. And if he doesn’t want to divorce his wife because he thinks he loves her then he must demand that she go to marriage counselling and/or a rav, no if’s and’s or but’s. If he doesn’t follow through just as I described he will end up divorced anyway, just with much more heartache and investment, and possibly a child.
And to the foolish person who suggested that this woman be e granted the gift and responsibility of a child, to you I say “Please don’t procreate.” This has been a public safety message from a concerned citizen.
They both need professional help.
I don’t know how one can spend 10 months dating and not get some strong hints that a person shares almost none of your values regarding financial matters, work ethic, and so on. That is, of course, unless “ten months dating” includes the engagement period, which is a common tragedy of these frum relationships: they go from euphoria to euphoria without ever dealing with the tough stuff. A new relationship can easily gloss over any real problems for six months; if you then get engaged instead of spending a few more months sorting through those problems before adding the distraction of planning a wedding, you could find yourself rather unaware of some key problems once you settle in for the hard work of building a life together.
And for him to have made life-long commitments to two women so obviously unsuited to be his potential life-mates is indicative of some severe issues on his part.
His description of this woman is one I find horrifying, but I’d find it equally horrifying if a friend married a woman like that.
Counseling isn’t only for couples. He’s got problems, and should seek counseling, both therapy and financial. Whether he understands it or not, he has a marriage problem, and he has a financial problem. Perhaps these professionals can help him understand how to communicate his values to her, but most importantly they can help him to understand the wisest path forward in dealing with these problems he now has.
He might end up divorcing this woman, or they might find a happy compromise. Either way, he has to realize he has taken his life seriously off-track, and that he needs help to steer it back in the right direction.
I was hoping someone else would point this out. It seems to me that someone who would marry two different people that were totally wrong for him has some major issues. My suspicion? This is only a guess obviously, but I’d bet my lunch money that both his wives are “hot Chanies,” with conventionally beautiful good looks. This is not a slam on beautiful women. There are plenty of beautiful women who work hard and contribute greatly to society. This is an observation about men who confuse extreme physical attraction for love, which is what I suspect is going on with Heshy’s friend. You can love a face and a body, but you can’t base a marriage on that love. You can only base a marriage on the love of a soul. And you can’t know someone’s soul unless you have deep discussions with them about values, beliefs, goals, hopes, dreams, etc. Those are conversations you have to have before you get married, not after. Otherwise, there’s a pretty high probability that you won’t really know the person’s soul until after you get married, and then you might find that you’re not so crazy about it. I could be wrong, but it doesn’t seem like Heshy’s friend could have had very many soul-knowing conversations with his wives before he married them, or he would have figured out what they were about before tying the knot.
My recommendation at this point? Heshy should strongly encourage his friend to get individual therapy, and not sleep with his wife anymore, at least until she goes for couples counseling with him for a while, and they see progress. You have sex, you risk pregnancy. No birth control is foolproof, and they may not even have a heter if they’re machmir. Just don’t do it. Pregnancy would by far and away be the worst thing that could happen; particularly if this woman really is the way he says she is. They wouldn’t be raising children. They’d be raising victims.
Divorce seems like a huge overreaction. Also, you are being ridiculously judgmental of her.
If she doesn’t want to work, maybe it’s because she doesn’t find her current job fulfilling. Maybe she should go back to school or figure out what her dreams are and pursue them. If she hates her job, and he is making enough money to support them, it makes sense that she’d rather be happy not working than miserable working.
I would say that she has to figure out what in life is going to make her happy and if he wants to stay married, he needs to support her in that quest, even if it means they lose a second income.
I can understand divorce if she wants to spend her life watching soap operas and doing nothing else, but I doubt that’s the case. She probably just doesn’t know what she wants to do, and that’s true for a lot of people.
This is a really good book: Finding Flow: The Psychology of Engagement with Everyday Life (Masterminds Series) [Paperback]
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
Best of luck to you.
I don’t believe commenters are denouncing a man’s wife based on third-hand comments from Heshy! You all don’t know anything about her and you might be actually pushing him toward divorce!
Like I said, your friend needs to read Garden of Peace. And people need to stop being so judgmental about people they don’t know. Divorce is a very serious matter and the last thing couples need is random internet commenters spoiling a husband’s opinion of his wife.
He should probably check out http://www.marriedmansexlife.com. The author also has a book the 2011 Married Man Sex Life Primer. Both resources are extremely useful in situations like this. His advice is spot on.
First – I reject your premise entirely. Some frum girls give excellent head!
Second – Babies are not designed to fix a woman. She is there for the child, the child is not there to help her grow up. People who can’t figure themselves out don’t need a baby! Worst idea ever.
Third – She sounds fairly unhappy. Most people want to do something besides ‘hang out’. Is she suffering from depression? Either way, they need a professional help. Likely both of them. Divorce is a bad idea though… Once you get married, you should stay married, unless there is abuse involved. You can’t promise to love and be with someone forever – or until you disagree with me. (Well you can, but you shouldn’t.)
Out of curiosity, what brought on this sudden desire to stop working? Was it that they just got married and she decided the morning after that now that she’s married to someone well-off she doesn’t have to work, or did something happen months later that made her decide that she doesn’t want to work? Unless she was in a truly dead-end job, which teaching does not tend to be because it’s inherently rewarding, something must have happened that made her decide that she’s sick of working.
Also, what is surprising is that teaching is one job with much more free time than most — you have entire summers off to sit around and do nothing, if you so choose, which makes me wonder why she is so compelled to stop working.
That being said, they definitely need to see a professional marriage therapist. It’s possible since you describe your friend as a “nice guy” that he isn’t articulating his feelings clearly, or strongly enough and it sounds to me like he’s thought about this a lot without a lot of communication. Maybe he should try seeing a therapist to get some advice on how he can handle the situation and communicate more effectively and then try to get her to go to a therapist?
Good teachers do NOT have more free time than most professions. On the contrary, a good teacher will take their job home with them, spend hours on lesson prep & grading. I am married to a former teacher and I saw how much time & energy she put in. It’s exhausting.
My apologies, I didn’t mean to insult the profession, I just meant that it has a built in chunk of vacation time IF one chooses to use that time as such. I agree with you that a good teacher will spend many more hours than other professions with work at home, doing the things you stated.
Agreed. Lazy teachers have lots of spare time. Not professional committed teachers.
Nonsense. An entire summer off? What other job has that?!
For starters, it’s not really “an entire summer”, since the teachers stay later and start earlier than the students. Secondly, the vacation time they do have in the summer gets balanced out by the hours of grading papers and meeting with parents that they do during evenings and weekends of the school year. And finally, I could name several professions that have flexible work schedules with built-in vacation time. Many people telecommute and make their own hours. Others do freelance and per diem work. Then there’s seasonal employment, dependent on holidays or weather conditions.
In sum, teaching is by no means a walk in the park, neither individually nor comparatively speaking. Teachers earn meager salaries and have to put up with irate parents and corrupt administration. The burnout rate is high because it’s a thankless job.
I wouldn’t blame the subject of this posting for wanting to quit teaching. The core issue seems to be not that she doesn’t want to teach, nor that she doesn’t know what she wants to do, but rather that she doesn’t want to do anything.
If this is her ‘only’ issue, then he shud do what it takes to move past it. If she refuses therapy, he shud go alone. Or go to a Rabbi alone, if she won’t come. Personally i think its pathetic for a girl without kids to not work.
Maybe her job is boring, maybe she needs something more stimulating and in her immaturity she thinks no job is the solution. If he loves her and cares about her, and thinks she is a good wife and will be a good mother then he should work thru this issue.
How can she be a good mother, when the example she sets for any female child is, “marry rich, so you can be lazy.” That is, by default, NOT a good example.
I’m not bashing stay at home moms… if they had a convo about her not working when they have kids, so she can be there for them, that’s a horse of a different color ENTIRELY. But to say, “Nah, I’m good with not working, since you bring home the… well, not BACON, per se.”
And HE should go to therapy alone? HE should go to the Rabbi alone? If he’s already alone so much in this relationship, why not cut loose the financial burden of someone who is clearly not with him?
Yes he shud, bec right not this is HIS issue, she is very happy to stay home and do nothing all day. while u an d i may not agree with her, it’s still HIS issue.
It may be that she is perfectly content to sit at home and not work, and she may even think that it’s a personal decision that she has every right to make. Not so. If she were single, that would be another story. But this affects him, since she is depending on him to financially support her. And since he is unwilling to do that, “his” issue is really her issue as well.
Firstly, I don’t think it’s healthy to hold back the truth from a partner in the fear of hurting them. If there is no clear communication that this issue is causing him to contemplate divorce, there is no way for them to resolve the issue. She must understand the severity, although it may be very painful.
On a side note, she may be suffering from her own problems that should be addressed. If that’s the case, that should obviously be put into the picture when working out the issues. Just my thoughts…
She sounds like a Hot Chani either in training, a wannabe or was one to begin with and you’re friend didn’t care or was so enthralled by her beauty, willingness to get married at 26 to a divorced guy that he didn’t notice this fact.
That being said, the fact she doesn’t want to work at this point doesn’t sound like grounds for divorce, more just his own bad luck in picking decent girls to marry.
Most Hot Chani’s don’t work. So, whether she was one in training, taking a simple teaching job until she got married, or is a wannabe – she will resent the fact she has to work.
Why can’t she be rich enough to lie on the beach all day?
Why do her Hot Chani sisters get to just troll the mall all afternoon and she has to work? Did she make the wrong decision and marry someone who cant take care of her?
NO! She only makes right decisions! Your friend makes enough money to get by, therefore she can quit and begin living the dream.
LOL dream.
It is just a dream bc when she cant afford new Tory Burch flats, sushi or a nanny, her Hot Chani sister’s WILL take notice and loshon hara her a** all the way back to Bais Yakov.
If I was your friend, I would go the kindness route first. Be totally upfront and tell her exactly how he feels in a nice, calm, loving way and ask her to keep her position even part time to help out at least until their family grows, whenever that might be.
If she just flatly refuses, then agree to her terms. She will learn the hard way when she doesn’t have extra money for the things she wants. As long as your friend remains loving and respectful she should play right into his plan.
Many of your readers might disagree and tell him to dump her, yell at her, tell her off – these things will only end in misery.
Unless she is cursing him out or abusing him in any other way, this is the way to go!!
He needs to calm down and be flexible. On it’s own, this is not a reason for divorce. Life will send you all sorts of curve balls and you’ve got to learn to deal with them.
Your friend needs to realize that he did not marry his clone. People are different, have different goals and ambitions. And just because his wife doesnt share the exact same career ambitions as he does- does not make her crazy or bad, nor is it grounds for divorce! It sounds like this couple are financially stable without a 2nd income. Your friend should consider himself LUCKY that he gets to spend quality time with his wife. Instead of having to grade papers, stress out about her job, make dinner, do dishes, laundry, run errands, food shopping, prepare for company ect… at night or on weekends when her husband is home, this wife can get all those things done while he is at work and be able to spend real time with her husband on nights and weekends. This is a luxury! Perhaps his wife thinks that spending time with her husband and building the foundation of a strong marriage is worth not having the extra (and not presently needed) money in their bank account.
I think it is ironic that many people are calling his wife crazy for not wanting to work. 50 years ago, everyone would have been calling her crazy for wanting to work! And Im sure there are plenty among us who would admit that if we won the lottery and did not have to work to make ends meet we would quit our jobs as soon as possible.
Many of us work because we need to not because we want to. I like the positive position you have taken on this situation, but I feel that the couple is not on the same page when it comes to financial issues. Money is often a deal breaker. Husband needs to articulate his position and wife needs to way her needs against the couples’ needs. How would she feel if he tightens the purse strings and she has to make do with a small sum?
I have a friend who refused to date teachers because he felt that they would quit working as soon as they got married. He wound up dating a health professional who does not work. He married her.
She volunteers much of her time. It does not hurt that she came into the relationship with a small fortune.
What can I say? I disgaree with a lot of people on here. First of all, when making a life-long commitment, I don’t believe that 10 months is sufficient to determine the quality of a person’s character. However, at this point, that’s rather water under the bridge. We are where we are, and where we are isn’t pleasant.
I am extremely close to someone who went through the exact same situation; he married a woman whom he loved at the time, but after they got married, she changed. Her clothes became different, she lost all interest in her career, and she became extremely clingy and controlling. There are a finite number of ways to deal with this:
1) Your friend has got to be brutally honest about how HURT he is, and CONFUSED, and how this may, in fact, be a deal breaker for him. Now, if you wrote that she was considering a DIFFERENT career path, I would change my tune… but to sit on your tush all day and not do anything? Let me ask this: if he had a daugther with this woman, is that the kind of image he wants her to live up (or, down, really) to? I think not.
2) Once they have had this talk, he needs to make it very clear that they need help in order for things to change. Just as you might call a specialist to fix your roof if you had a leak, so you should really consider calling a couples therapist if you’re having an issue with your marriage. To me, this is the only logical next step, because these issues point to something deeper in the both of them: for her, it’s a need to never have responsibilities, or create or nurture anything significant of her own making… for him, this can lead to a REAL mistrust of women… which won’t serve him, going forward.
3) At this point, the ball is in her court. Doing nothing is not an option. He doesn’t have to say the word “divorce,” but “deal breaker” or anything along those lines might hammer the idea home. The point being, once he tells her exactly how he feels, it’s now up to her. If she continues to believe that nothing is wrong… then he can either live with that and be unhappy, or he can begin taking steps in another direction. I will say this, the man I know told his wife how unhappy he was, and she refused to believe anything was wrong, and even now, she still sends him pictures of herself and updates…. years after the divorce.
I cannot impress enough on people that when you’re making a lifelong commitment to a person, it is perfectly acceptable to take your time, and discuss things like this in almost painful detail. I wonder if he had conversations with her about what her career would look like after marriage, but like I said: water under the bridge. All I can say is that my thoughts are with him, but not to live in an unhappy relationship just because he may have made a mistake. There are options, from therapy, and beyond. I wish him all the very best.
Hesh,
Do you control the ads that show alongside the comments? Because if you do, the mix of ads is probably your greatest, most subtle piece of satire to date.
Starting with Muslima.com (pictures of muslim cuties in their headcoverings) is a sharp slap to the senses for a secluded little jewish boy who thinks muslims are only barbarians. But you subtly draw us back to the jewish nature of your site with ads for Modern Tribe.com and Books on the Weekly Torah Reading. Ok, I feel comfortable again. Then you quickly snap us back to the true underlying sexual current of all your posts with the ad for LatinAmericanCupid.com (hot latinas in bikinis–thank you). Of course, you can’t resist one last bit of shtick with the ad for the Mandy Patinkin and Patty Lupon Dinner Theatre.
Great Work!
It sounds like he has a good head on his shoulders, her not so much, and that they need to figure something out soon. And like other posts, I’ll echo the sentiment that ‘No, having a child will not make the situation better.’
I also wonder why she suddenly didn’t want to work…
I just hope your friend is ok with you posting his private life issues on an internet blog, where anyone that might know him can figure out who it is.
Well, you wanted to hear it from the horse’s mouth, so here goes. I am on my marriage #3. First one was 2 years at the age of 23. Next was for 8 yrs at the age of 27. This one is for 12 years so far at the age of 38.
I highly recommend divorce for anyone who is not happy with their spouse. Forget counseling, it doesn’t work. Once you’re jaded and pissed, it’s over. Doesn’t matter if it’s money, cheating, sex or lack of it, or the increased weight of one or the other. It’s over. Move on to the next.
If it were up to me, divorce would be a click away on the internet like everything else. Fill in the blanks, click here and it’s a done deal. I love my current wife. I loved the other 2 as well. But when it’s over, it’s over. You don’t get extra points at the end for longevity or sticking it out. All you get is heartache and a nervous stomach. followed by opening an account on Craigs List or Adult Friend Finders to find whatever it is you’re missing.
So my advice to your friend is get out before you have the financial burden of a child and end up tied to this woman forever because of it.
That is complete and total bull cookies! I know lots of people, myself included, who benefited greatly from marriage counseling, and did not wind up getting divorced. What you’re describing isn’t marriage. It’s living together with no commitment. So you sign some papers. If you do so with your attitude, they’re meaningless, and it’s still no commitment.
Your “current wife”! Does she know that that is what you call her?
I think the best idea in here is that he should refuse to give her spending money, just put the money into his name only and don’t give her money for crap. If he’s under 30 and she’s under 30, she’s not the trophy wife she thinks she is. If she wanted to marry money and be lazy, she should have married a man about 50. Gross? Too bad! Also, he has to be clear with her that there are issues. It doesn’t sound like he’s being clear about it.
WTF was this supposed to mean:
“bring…a girl to her knees (shame they don’t give good head)”
It means guys are pigs.
just the writer
Dump the bitch.
“Beth ben Yosef” may be on to something when she asks, “Is she depressed?” The wife may indeed be clinically depressed, and that could well explain why she doesn’t seem to want to do anything.
Ironically, depression can drain a person of energy to do anything, including getting help!
IF that is the underlying problem, marriage counseling probably wouldn’t do any good and might even do harm, but a psychologist, a sympathetic rav or even a family doctor might be able to help. The young husband should read up on depression and maybe seek professional help for his wife, or professional help for himself as to how he can help his wife.
Divorce should not be mentioned or even thought of at this stage, they are both young and if he loves her, he should stay with her and seek ways to help her and himself. Hatzlacha rabba to him.
i’m in the same situation as the guy described in the article. my new wife doesn’t want to do anything, isn’t supportive in anything, if i try to budget -she calls me cheap and controlling, even abusive!!!! never mind that i got huge debt with the IRS & FannyMea, she emails her friends and family that i am a controlling abusive cheap loser.
meanwhile she stays home all day and accepts an idea of a job ‘in theory’ but hasn’t made any visible effort to find one.
marriage counseling COULD help, but in my case it doesn’t really change anything- bcuz the counselors tend to try to validate BOTH SIDES no matter what.
in such case i think we need a pro-active rav or family member or anyone to say: ‘Lady, you are wrong- get off your duff and help your husband. do something, volunteer, run a bizness from home,
anything.
they should have serious talk about their future goals AS A COUPLE, and how they see helping each other in the marriage.
try to write down actual tangible actions with a time-frame, not just theoretical generalities.
Of course they validate both sides. One of you isn’t right and the other wrong! It’s a marriage, not a debate.
If you feel this is a problem, and your wife is making it into your problem, why don’t you put your foot down? Let her know you’re serious through action.
At the same time, find an outside party she trusts, explain your situation, and see if they can talk to your wife to figure out what’s holding her down.
It’s basically bad cop good cop, and you have to be the bad one since she’s picked that position for you anyhow.
But hopefully, you putting your foot down will let her know you’re serious about this, that she has to make a change in her life to be happy living a life with you. She’ll also respect you as a person, because you are handling the situation by directly showing her what you are and are not prepared to tolerate. That will help her change how she approaches dealing with you. As far as the particulars, here are my ideas. Divorce doesn’t have to even be an option on the table at this stage. Stop giving her so much attention, find things to occupy yourself, and only give her money you think it’s fair that she gets. Come up with a fair budget and show it to her, and stick with it no matter what. Whatever you do, the point is to put the squeeze on and make her feel enough that she’ll be willing to change her behavior when the outside party throws her a lifeline. What do you think?
Solo, I think if she loves you deep down and doesnt look at you like a sponge, she’ll change. If not she might go for a divorce. But that’s what your looking at already, isnt it? So you have nothing to lose here.
Truth be told: the guy has to deal with it himself. People can only offer advice and truthfully, he probably has a better clue than us if she may be depressed, thinks she’s a trophy wife, lacking career luster or just plain lazy. Finally, there’s the chance that Heshy made this up to generate hits to his site…..
<3
Either way, he definitely shouldn’t give her a get. He can get a heter meah rabbonim for 50k.
(It was starting to not be interesting.)
Heshy, how can you allow a comment encouraging spousal abuse? This isn’t funny.
I’m sorry to hear about your friend’s marriage troubles. It seemed like things were gradually heading south.
The questions he should be asking her are:
1) Is she happy with her current teaching job?
2) Would she consider a home based job where the hours
are generally flexible and she can work at her own pace?
I have questions of my own:
1) If there were red flags on the date, why did he ignore them?
2) What did he hear about her prior to meeting her?
3) When things were looking serious, did he take the time to have a sincere conversation about the future,their priorities and expectations?
4) What was her demeanor like when they were dating?
5) Does his and her parents know about their problems?
Have they gotten involved or made any input?
Most people I know seem to get engaged when the sexual tension is too much for them to handle. They then have dialogues of that nature which caused marital tension and lead to a lot of conflict thus resulting a broken engagement and sometimes a divorce.
If she refuses to seek help, then he should speak to someone who he can confide his marital issues with.Let him seek advice and make the best decisions for him.
A rule of thumb for daters : While compromising is an important aspect in a relationship, its crucial for you to discuss the future with your partner in order to determine whether your goals and expectations are compatible with each other or not before you contemplate engagement.Your dating partner is not a mind reader and issues like these should not get kicked under the rug. If you see red flags, you should NOT ignore them.If it keeps on persisting, you should bring your concerns to the attention of either the matchmaker,mentor,adviser,rabbi (pr former teacher)parent,married friend, or anyone you can trust to handle your issues and give you solid practical advise on how to approach these kind of circumstances.
on principle i don’t agree with divorce. My reason is despite my berating the J.a.p.s for valid reason there still is something special about a Jewish woman. Sometimes it gets buried beneath bad influences . But going to a rabbi is a bad idea. Many Orthodox rabbis are agents of the sitra achra. You can see this stated clearly in the end of meshechet shabat and it is mentioned in the Zohar to be wary of orthodox rabbis that are demons. (This was common theme in early books of chasidut.) This is I think a case for private prayer. I suggest he makes a time to be alone on a quite beach and talk with the Creator.
I don’t want to introduce too much psychobabble but (the standard intro to psychobabble), I bet he is her enabler in a co-dependant relationship. One of them has to break out of the paradigm, and if things continue it won’t be her. She will continue to do herself perfectly unless something comes along to make her stop. Where is she getting the wherewithal to live like a princess? Surely from him. The money may look like love to her, but it is not; it is also leverage if he has the cohones to use it (so far no). Sadly, if we want change it always comes down to ourselves first. If he can bring himself to use tough love (currently contrary to his nature) to break himself and his wife out of this it will work. If not, this will be passed to future generations.
Being divorced sucks, but on the positive a divorced man is still more marketable in the dating world than a single guy who has never been married. The wife not wanting to work just makes her like every other person including myself. Work sucks most people work for money never met anyone who wanted to work for free. The bottom line is does she get that she needs to bring in money to help the family. Even if she worked at a frum school she would at least get free admission. Of course maybe her husband is making a ton of cash in which case I can’t blame her for not wanting to work but at least accomplish or volunteer.
“never met anyone who wanted to work for free…I can’t blame her for not wanting to work but at least accomplish or volunteer.”
So which is it? You’re saying that you don’t blame this woman for not wanting to work because nobody in their right mind would work if they didn’t have to, but on the other hand you suggest that she should engage in volunteer work.
I think that work is, or at least should be, inherently fulfilling. Most people wouldn’t know what to do with themselves if they didn’t work. This is why, as the average life expectancy increases, people are starting to work well past 65.
Bottom line: if you hate your job, you’re probably in the wrong field or the wrong employer. It doesn’t mean you hate all work.
I suggest you find a new job. I’ve been there, where I had a job I didn’t feel fulfilled in. You need to feel good about the job you are doing.
How does being divorced make you more ‘marketable’? To me it says a man isn’t willing to take marriage seriously. Either he got into the wrong one too fast or he can’t stick it out when it counts.
Well, it depends whom you ask. Some people prefer a divorced man because they think if someone has never been married by a certain age, there must be something wrong with him. On the other hand, other people are concerned that a divorced man may have spiteful feelings toward his ex-wife. Maybe widowers are the most “marketable”, not that it really matters.
Just as there are all kinds of marriages, there are all kinds of widows. Widowhood is mistakenly assumed to be only a slightly lower level than sainthood, but a man who murdershis wife is also a a widow.
Well, actually, a man who murders his wife becomes a widower, not a widow.
But more to the point, that is the exception rather than the rule. Most widows and widowers lost their spouses involuntarily, whether from illness, injury, suicide, etc. This doesn’t make them saints and it certainly doesn’t make them perfect. What it does mean is that, compared to other singles, a) they have had the experience of being married and know what it entails, and b) there is no external evidence that their marriages failed.
It is a Monday morning quarterback comment but this is why couples need a Rav or at least each one need to have their own Rav. If she is refusing to get any help, then I am sorry for your friend, it will not end pretty.
Also it would be wise to wait on kids for now. I think he should get counseling on his own to figure out why he married her. If she wants to she can join in. He should work on himself first because he can only change himself and not her. After that if he chooses to end the marriage then at least he has reached that decision with a professional and/or a Rav’s counseling. If she does not want to play he can not make her but it sounds like he has some decision making issues in terms of relationships and he should figure out what that is. Otherwise, he will be on to number three and make the same mistakes.
He should seek therapy on his own in the immediate future. He needs to be taught the skills he needs to be assertive in this and all situations. A marriage counselor will see him alone and possibly when she sees his attentiveness to the problem she might be curious to see what the counselor has to say. Or as we say in Counseling her unwilliness to come shows her commitment to him and the relationship. He can’t just be fearful of the word and connotation of divorce. Marriage therapy works on a reward and punishment system, they will eventually have to find a compromise in order to be together. I don’t know anything about praying or going to a Rabbi…. it isn’t all spiritual it is all humans learning to live and deal with other humans.
Let’s remember that halachically the man’s role is to earn a living for his wife. So she has no obligation to earn money whatsoever. As for being idle, obviously it doesn’t sound great, but it is not necessarily a reason for divorce. Maybe she has issues, depression, fear of having children, etc, etc, and needs help, or that she is simply spoiled (still not a reason in and of itself for divorce). I second the talkbacks recommending the Garden of Emuna, and all the books by Rav Arush. It may be painful to hear, but a man’s wife is a reflection of the shechina, so if he’s having problems with her it means that he’s having problems with his relationship with Hashem. I would also strongly recommend that he contact Rav Brody. http://www.lazerbrody.typepad.com/
He gives brilliant advice on marital issues.
Your friend needs to stop the focus on his wife and understand what Hashem wants from him. His wife is only there to point the way.
Obviously there are some cases when there is no option but to divorce, but that is really a last resort. It sounds to me like your friend is panicking, rushing (in his mind at least) to divorce. And what does he think when he’s back on the market, that girls are going to be queueing up for the twice divorced. Everyone gets one divorce, but two, hmmm …
And btw, Heshy, you know that you can be quite disgusting at times, but it’s unfortunate that you never seem to miss an opportunity to do so. I don’t know how old you are, but it makes you sound like you’re about 15.
One of the things I ask from Hashem on a pretty regular basis is to keep me sounding like a 15 year old. I like to say I have the mind of an 80 year old, the body of a 20 year old and the maturity of a 14 year old.
Great advice until the last three lines. I do not follow blogs, a friend forwarded this to me so I do not know Heshy or anyone else.
I am sorry but the last three lines discredits the entire post, someone who advocates Rav Hachman, Rav Arush & Rav Brody calls another Jew disgusting? It goes against the teaching.
Anyway whichever advice tells your friend to get some help on his own is a good advice. As I said earlier before he divorces her, he should figure himself out. He can remarry easily, no problem but chances are he will get divorced or have a miserable third marriage if he has the attitude he has now, it is unfortunate but seems self evident.
Heshy – I don’t know you but a personal advice from me – integrate into one person at whatever age you happen to be. 14-20-80 is too disjointed, live and act whatever age is on your passport.
Hayim, you need to read in context before judging. Heshy’s posts are in the public domain and he moderates his comments. If it’s on his site he allows it. And I didn’t call him disgusting, I said that at times he can be disgusting. It’s not the same thing, and if you had seen what I have you would agree with me. I avoid the obviously dirty posts, and I was disappointed to be confronted with it, even in this serious post.
And how do you know he can get remarried easily. How many desirable girls want to marry the twice divorced? Not that many.
Fair enough with the first part. As my post said, his buddy has more serious problems than his wife. If he ends up getting divorced which is not my advice one way or the other ( I think I earlier posted that he needs to sort himself out quick) and gets proper psychological help then there are plenty 30+ women who bloomed a little late but are wonderful people who would marry him. For the 30+ market he would have one quality that most 30+ men don’t, buying an engagement ring and making it to the chupah.
I disagree. Sometimes two people get married who are simply incompatible. It doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily having religious/spiritual issues. I don’t see the connection.
Regarding what is an adequate reason for divorce…well, that no one can really judge. It depends on an individual situation. We all have different levels of tolerance. Maybe you’d be able to deal with idleness, but the person in question can’t.
These days everything is disposible. I’m not suggesting that someone should remain in an abusive or even a hopelessly miserable marriage, but the description given does not indicate this. It’s hard to judge the situation without all the details, but apparently he loves his wife, so why shouldn’t he try to make it work?
I know marriages, where they were basically two good people, but with problems, (much worse than this), and they turned it around completely. Just because she is idle now it doesn’t mean that she will be like this forever. Maybe she needs counselling, guidance, whatever, but it is not terminal. Of course, everyone can do whatever they like, but divorce SHOULD be the last resort, not the first option when dealing with a problem in a marriage. And if he loves her so much, he will probably still do so after the divorce, and may not be able to get over his feelings for her despite her flaws, and despite meeting someone more “compatible”. Yes, sometimes people really do love someone warts and all.
As for the spiritual aspect, every person who comes into our life is from Hashem, so of course, the most important person in his life is also from Hashem.
No question. He needs to stick by her. I have been married for almost 16 years, and I know from experience- that you need to stick it out. What we have heard is his side, not hers. It is extrememly hard to actually give advice with only his perspective. IF and that is IF, what he is saying- she is actually doing, she obviously is going through something, and she needs him now- more than ever. Marriage is not about money, and he needs to care about HER, not about her views on money. He needs to quit thinking about himself, and support her. All I have heard is what he thinks about what she is doing, not how she feels. There are ups and downs in marriage, and if I divorced everytime I thought about it, I would be. They will be stronger for it in the end. You dont allways get what you want, you get what you need. Maybe he could learn something from this.
My wife stays home and does nothing- Besides clean all day and take shlep kinder, and Im ok with that. To hell with egalitarianism- It’s my job to make the gelt. This guy sounds like a cry baby- Man up Son! Take care of that woman! whats happened to all the men in the world? Judging by the fact that he calls heshy for marital advice- well that is all that need to be said.
They need professional help but she isn’t willing to consider it, so not sure what to suggest now. This could have, and should have, been easily avoided by a little conversation while dating. ALL marriage advice sources – Jewish and secular, recommend an open discussion of finances – how you view money, how you handle it, saving/spending goals, money managment and budgeting. They also agree that you should have a discussion on your future – how do you want to raise kids (and number thereof), what values are important to you, who is going to raise the kids, what are your individiual short-, medium-, and long-term goals? Your goals as a couple?
Your fighting style – how you deal with conflict as a couple.
All of these are very important issues to discuss upfront before you even consider proposing. These kinds of questions would have made it very clear to your friend that there was a value gap from the beginning.
How is 1. grocery shopping, 2. laundry 3. cooking 4. dishes 5. organizing closets and 6. mopping floors fall into the category of “nothing”?
Does he want toast for supper every night?
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