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I won’t eat at your house, you shaygetz!

Kosher?Dear Telz Angel,

I live in a small community and I need your help.  My wife and I are BTs but have not flipped out.  We’re pretty modern.  We both work for a living.  I wear my kippa sruga at work, and my wife wears a hat to shul.  Our kids go to the local day school and we keep shabbos and kashrus.  The problem is with our small community.

My daughter is 11 and only has two other girls in her class, but neither of them will eat our house.  My 9 year old son also has friends in school — but their parents wont have their boys come over either.  Yes, we own a TV.  But it’s not like we watch TV on Shabbos.

Most of the community has frummed out so much that my kids don’t have friends because no one will eat at my home.  What can I do?  – Mike in Monroe.


Dear Mike,

The problem is so obvious that I’m disappointed you don’t see it yourself.  You are the problem, not your community.  You are exactly the worst thing that a BT flipped-out family could imagine.  You are a shaygetz.  Why? Because you are a BT, but you did not flip out.  Imagine how threatening you are to your community Kiruv program.  The Kiruv guys only get full credit when their BTs flip-out — and the more they see people like you, they get worried.  The fact that you signed your name Mike, not Michoel — or Michoyel — is very telling.  No wonder your kids don’t have friends.  You are exactly the kind of person that BTs want to reject in order to feel good about themselves.

The good news: now that you know you are the problem, you can be the solution too.  Follow my 6-step program carefully, and I assure you within a few months, people will send their kids to your house.  Your kids will have friends.  Just have bitachon.

1. Get yourself a Borsalino — it’s under $200 and make sure to get a hat brush.   Now get your wife a sheitl.  A good one, at least $1000, and not one of those Avodah Zarah wigs either.  What you wear is a reflection of how kosher your kitchen is.

2. Show up to minyan during the week.  Seriously, we could use you.

At this point you’ll be signalling that you are back on track.  But this will not be enough to get people to eat at your trief house.

3. Make sure to complain about how liberal the shul is getting.  And when you complain, make sure that people know you are serious by peppering your sentences with Yeshivish phrases.  Say things like “I can’t believe we actually say a misheberach for Obama, Yimach Shemo.”   In fact, you should add “yimach shemo” whenever you talk about people that some frum people don’t like.

4.  Mike, it’s time to fix that goyish name and become Michoyel.  And now Michoyel, it’s time to start mumbling.  Remember, articulation is a siman of what your shmekle does when you have hirhurim ra’im.  Never articulate when speaking.  They Aybeshter wants us to mumble.  And when you talk about G-d, remember, He likes to be called the Aybeshter or the Riboyno shelOylam.

5. Never answer questions directly.  If someone asks you: Hey Michoyel, can you give me a ride to the shiur? — you say “Imyirtze Hashem” or “Zicher, I’ll be mishtadel,  but I think I might be late since I’m trying to take longer davenning mincha“.  Whatever the answer, it should never be a clear “yes” or “no”.  Answering questions directly is a sign of gaiyveh.  Be humble and mumble.

I think you still need to do one more thing before anyone partakes of the triefisness that passes through your kitchen.  You have to be machmir.

6.  The most important part of getting people to trust your home is to make arbitrary food related chumras.  ”An O-U?  we don’t use that.  My Rabbi says we shouldn’t use any hechsherim that don’t have Hebrew letters in the symbol.”  or “Everyone knows that frum people don’t eat cantaloupe for fear of bugs“, or “We decided to get extra salt shakers so that we don’t have deal with the problems about passing them during Niddah, after all our daughter is 11 and so are her friends in day school.  We have to be careful now.

It might take months to get this all straight, but once you change your appearance, speech patterns, and attitude about all those yimach-shmo-niks, then your kitchen will become kosher, and your community members will allow their kids  to visit your house.  The key is to show people that you can reject others — and this will bring you closer to the true meaning of frum community.  Believe me, I know.


Image Credit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nicasaurusrex/1242430018/

{ 108 comments… add one }
  • jpacnyc October 25, 2011, 1:45 PM

    Our biggest enemy are the secular Jews by calling themselves Jewish..
    The number one enemy to authentic Judaism are the secular Jewish born so called leaders. That includes reform,conservative ,radical modern orthodox and Jews for jesus sects. Only black hatted Jews are authentic.

    • Telz Angel October 25, 2011, 2:04 PM

      Dear jpacnyc,
      Thank you for making me feel better about myself by proving yourself to be a much bigger jerk than I could ever be. I try, but you have bested me.

      • U Avi October 25, 2011, 2:07 PM

        Hahhahaha. I bet jpacnyc does tons of kiruv

    • Anonymous nuisance October 25, 2011, 2:08 PM

      Roses are red
      Violets are blue
      Spam isn’t kosher
      And neither are you.

      • Anonymous October 26, 2011, 11:35 PM


    • Meir October 25, 2011, 2:28 PM

      Careful, you could have your conversion revoked by some of those black-hatted Jews if they find out you’re visiting this website 🙂 (though I’m not entirely certain this isn’t the case).

    • A. Nuran October 25, 2011, 10:44 PM

      Creeps like you are the best advertisement for antisemitism yet created.

  • AO October 25, 2011, 1:57 PM

    I pray JPACNYC is a satirical expert as well. Otherwise he is an embarrassment to the frum world.

    • Telz Angel October 25, 2011, 2:05 PM

      I just wish he was funny.

  • U Avi October 25, 2011, 2:05 PM

    This is hilarious and dark.

  • AztecQueen2000 October 25, 2011, 2:06 PM

    You live in Monroe? That’s half your problem right there. (Monroe is slightly to the right of Williamsburg.)

    • Meir October 25, 2011, 2:21 PM

      With the difference that at least Williamsburg probably has an hipster minyan.

      Hey, there’s probably even one that uses a mechitza for irony-related purposes.

  • Puzzled October 25, 2011, 2:16 PM

    So the email writer doesn’t want to be judged, but feels the need to show, in his final sentence, that he’s capable of judging?

  • Anonymous October 25, 2011, 2:23 PM

    I Loved this telz, its actually so true

    • Telz Angel October 25, 2011, 5:23 PM

      Funny thing, this post came from an almost identical conversation I had with someone over Yom Tov — just some minor changes of course. Yes, it’s true.

  • Telz Fan Club President October 25, 2011, 2:46 PM

    Say no to chlov Yisroel, say no to pas Yisroel, say yes to JPACNYC being put in charem. Sadly, our BTs are treated like crap in the frum community. I say we boycott the uber frumies and refuse to eat in their homes. Refuse to buy foods with more than one hashgacha.
    I will go shop now with my hair uncovered, after I shake my male (gasp)neighbor’s hand and I will buy only “glatt” meat with a smirk because all of this meat can’t be glatt.

    • anonimo October 25, 2011, 4:53 PM

      Nothing will ever happen because achdus is one way street. The black hatter can spit in your face or call your daughter a whore but you’ll still eat the meat he shechts.

    • A. Nuran October 25, 2011, 10:45 PM

      Say yes to JPACNYC being put into catfood.

    • Dan October 26, 2011, 9:54 AM

      I’m confused.
      You start talking about “uber frummies”, so I’m thinking of people who keep chumrahs.
      But then you talk about not covering your hair, and shaking mens’ hands, which are actual incontrovertible halacha.

      Which leads me to imagine that you think that these halachos are only chumrahs.

      Which if true, means that your impression that we are mistreating BT’s is probably incorrect, since it is based on false premises.

      • prili October 26, 2011, 7:36 PM

        I’m sorry, I was under the impression that we are to treat all humans with respect, no matter their religion or religious standing. But that could just be those secular ideals getting the better of me. Excuse me while I scuttle back to my rightful place in the kitchen.

        • Dan October 26, 2011, 7:40 PM

          huh? Are you replying to me? How?

  • anonimo October 25, 2011, 4:54 PM

    Nothing will ever happen because achdus is one way street. The black hatter can spit in your face or call your daughter a wh*re but you’ll still eat the meat he shechts.

    • Michaltastik October 28, 2011, 1:59 PM

      It’s so true!!

      • Dan October 28, 2011, 2:08 PM

        Wait. you eat our meat because of “achdus”. I eat people’s meat because I trust them.

      • Michaltastik October 31, 2011, 5:37 AM

        I meant, “The black hatter can spit in your face or call your daughter a wh*re but you’ll still eat the meat he shechts.” is sooooooo true!

  • Dan October 25, 2011, 7:16 PM

    Is showing up for minyan during the week considered frummy?
    I guess I be frummy.

  • Halp! October 25, 2011, 8:07 PM

    Can someone explain about ‘shady hechsherim’? I get why a random ‘K’ on something is an issue – but what’s wrong with the OU?
    And everyone says that Triangle-K is bad (I don’t buy it) but I have no idea why…

    • tesyaa October 25, 2011, 8:18 PM

      Yeah, no one will take you seriously if you buy Triangle K, but let’s be real – what’s not kosher in the Mott’s apple juice???

      • Dan October 25, 2011, 8:28 PM

        The pig fat.

    • Bill Gaiveh October 25, 2011, 8:29 PM

      Follow the money and you will find the truth.

      Apples require a special schita. Only expensive mashgichim can certify.

      • Ripley October 26, 2011, 7:59 AM

        Before giving hashgachas became big business, Orthodox Rabbis would paskin that pure juice, other than grape, needed no hecksher. The triangle K hecksher was found on several products which were not purchased by many in the orthodox community. Rumor has it, that nothing was changed when the OU took over the kosher certification. In the past some people did not trust a hashgacha if they did not have a food chemist on staff, and I believe that that is a legit concern. Having said that I will tell you that I have some very machmir friends who use the triangle K without a problem and others who would not walk into my house if they believed that I even thought to buy them.
        In my humble opinion, it is a greater chilul Hashem to insult or embarrass someone than to drink a glass of juice in their home. For those who believe that only chasiddshe hashgachas are acceptable, let’s talk about the Monsey traif chicken episode. How many people ate traif because the people involved looked like them? Let’s not get into the stickers with a heimishe hecksher pasted over a mainstream one. The multiple hecksher is one of the biggest insults to the kosher consumer.
        I daven in a shul where some people hold by cholov Yisroel and others eat in diners. I eat at one’s home, but not the other. You guess which.

        • prili October 26, 2011, 7:41 PM

          I’m with you! My rav stresses the idea that if someone tells you their house is kosher, then its kosher. You do not have the right to sift through their garbage to check the hashgacha on packages or ask loudly at the shabbos table if they washed the veggitables. A guest once did that over a 3 day chag at my parents house at EVERY SINGLE MEAL! It is embarrassing, against halacha and idiotic.

          • Dan October 26, 2011, 8:34 PM

            My rav stresses the idea that if someone tells you their house is kosher, then its kosher.

            Interesting. My rav doesn’t say that. He says you have to decide if you can trust them. Keeping kosher requires more than buying stuff with a hechsher- you also need to know when to ask questions.
            Besides, my rav says I can’t eat triangle K, so if you eat it, then I can’t eat at your house if you are going to serve it to me.

            Also, I can’t imagine you mean “anyone who says their house is kosher”. Surely there must be some standard for who they are. You wouldn’t trust someone who keeps no halacha to say their house is kosher. Well, I think I don’t trust them unless they are pretty much trying to keep all halacha.

            • Tinok ShenishBeth October 26, 2011, 8:55 PM

              Why would someone claim their house is kosher if they keep no halacha? I doubt that every goy and sheygetz you know is attempting to trick you into their home to feed you treif food.

          • Michaltastik October 28, 2011, 2:03 PM

            I agree that is rude. They should have either asked on the phone in advance or not eaten there. However, so many of the nebach gross men single 50 seeking 20 with no manners are the type to just show up and not cook for themselves. It has to be ok because everyone’s religious, right?

        • Critic October 26, 2011, 8:54 PM

          “For those who believe that only chasiddshe hashgachas are acceptable, let’s talk about the Monsey traif chicken episode.”
          The owner of the Monsey glat treif butcher was not Chassidish he was Yeshivish. Don’t know whose hashgoche he had.

        • A. Nuran October 27, 2011, 3:41 AM

          One of the most insulting moments I can remember came when the local Lubavitchers sent a couple kiruv boys over to our house. We went to a lot of trouble to get kosher food for them. Apples, bread, cheese, crackers, soda, a cake. Everything but the apples had a mainline hescher. Paper plates and cups. Plastic utensils. Brought the stuff out wrapped.

          They refused to touch any of it because the kitchen wasn’t kosher.

          When you’re trying to make a good impression don’t start by throwing someone’s honest try at proper hospitality back in their faces.

          • Anon October 27, 2011, 5:53 AM

            Yes, that is the problem with chabadniks. They are so ignorant that they need to be reflexively machmir.

            That is a really funny story. I’m sorry that happened to you, Nuran, but I’m just cracking up at the thought of these poor chabad kids who coming out to you on the west coast, and they are so ignorant that they end up insulting you.

            • A. Nuran October 28, 2011, 10:59 AM

              It’s not just a coastal thing. It’s a basic human behavior thing. Hosts feed their guests as best they can, especially respected guests. Guests accept hospitality graciously, especially when they host has gone out of his or her way to accomodate unusual requirements.

              • Critic October 28, 2011, 2:03 PM

                “Guests accept hospitality graciously, especially when they host has gone out of his or her way to accomodate unusual requirements”
                So what your’e basically saying that one should compromise his religious beliefs in a situation where “the host has gone out of his or her way to accomodate unusual requirements”? Isn’t that a slippery slope? What if the “unusual requirements” that the host has fulfilled still do not measure up to the religious requirements or beliefs of the guest? Does etiquette override ones religious beliefs? Of course one must handle such a situation with the greatest of sensitivity but not by negating his religious beliefs.I think that most people will respect you for sticking up for your ideals.

                • Michaltastik October 28, 2011, 2:08 PM

                  Dude, the food wasn’t cooked and was served on paper plates. No, I’m with Nuran, way to kiruv Loobies!

                  • Critic October 28, 2011, 2:41 PM

                    “Dude, the food wasn’t cooked and was served on paper plates”
                    In Nooran’s case I would say would think that the boys were not correct and showed a lack of sensitivity in their refusal to eat the food but the general discussion here seems to imply that etiquette mores override religious ones in almost all situations.

                • A. Nuran October 28, 2011, 10:57 PM

                  Depends on a number of things. But rudeness on the part of guests is unacceptable. Phrases like “We don’t trust your food” and “Your kitchen is unacceptable” are cause to be tossed out on your ass.

                  There are times when one takes a stand for religious reasons. There are times when one doesn’t. The boundaries are fuzzy. If you pile chumras on top of each other and know they’re chumras, then refusing on the basis of them isn’t piety. It’s arrogance and pride. If it’s something important where there is no latitude a good host wouldn’t think of pressing the issue.

                  • Dan October 29, 2011, 5:38 PM

                    “There are times when one takes a stand for religious reasons. There are times when one doesn’t.”

                    Ooooh. Tell us about the stands you have taken for religious reasons.
                    You can’t tell me I take too many stands, if you don’t take any.

  • Woodrow/Conservadox October 26, 2011, 8:38 AM

    Maybe Mike in Monroe should move.

    • Telz Angel October 26, 2011, 10:48 AM

      I guess that’s not a bad suggestion. Since the fact that no one trusts his kashrus — since he wears a kippa serugah , and works for a living , and he doesn’t act all messed up — sure he should move, sell his house, change jobs etc.

      You should write satire 🙂

  • Melly Lifshitz October 26, 2011, 11:22 AM

    “Can someone explain about ‘shady hechsherim’? I get why a random ‘K’ on something is an issue – but what’s wrong with the OU?
    And everyone says that Triangle-K is bad (I don’t buy it) but I have no idea why…”

    I have the same sentiments.

    • Tinok ShenishBeth October 26, 2011, 6:25 PM

      At some point – after you have replaced, seperated, scrubbed, kashered, toiveled, and blow torched everything in your kitchen – there must be a point where it’s kosher enough.

      • prili October 26, 2011, 7:43 PM

        only when some dirty random representative from a “good’ hashgacha comes in and parks his tuchus in your sparkly new kitchen and demands money from you. Then its probably good enough. Man that sounds a little mob-ish to me. They even wear similar clothes…

        • Tinok ShenishBeth October 26, 2011, 8:03 PM


        • Ripley October 26, 2011, 9:22 PM

          Prili, not so far from the truth. In some areas the Vaad controls who will make a living and who won’t. Businesses that bring in legit outside hashgachas are not patronized out of the fear of antagonizing the kosher cartel. In some communities the business owners drag anyone who gives them any competition into the Bet Din.

          Dan are you JPACNYC?

          • Tinok ShenishBeth October 26, 2011, 10:06 PM

            I was wondering the same thing…

          • Dan October 27, 2011, 5:55 AM

            No, I’m not JPACNYC. I’m the same Dan who has been posting intermittently for some time here, and jumping down everyone’s throat when they attack torah judaism, and wrote the letter called “frumsatire makes me frum” a couple weeks back.

            • Dan October 27, 2011, 9:01 AM

              But I would like to point out, that your assumption that I was JPACNYC perfectly fits with your general assumption that anyone who disagrees with you must have some sort of evil intent. Bigot.

              • Tinok ShenishBeth October 27, 2011, 3:23 PM

                Evil intent? I don’t think you’re intentions are evil, but I do think you are a narrow-minded chauvinist who’s never been thay far out of BK.

                • Dan October 27, 2011, 3:35 PM

                  Exactly. Because I disagree with you, you assume I am a narrow minded chauvinist who has never been far our of Brooklyn, when in fact I have a far more prestigious secular education than almost everyone you know.

                  • Tinok ShenishBeth October 27, 2011, 6:00 PM

                    A lot of my family members are employed by a swell little university in Providence, RI – I wouldn’t bet on my being impressed with your education.

                    • Dan October 27, 2011, 6:53 PM


                      Well, I’m in a more prestigious program than any of those they offer. You would be impressed.

                      The point is not that I’m more educated than your family who are professors at Brown. The point is that I am very worldly, and nobody can accuse me of otherwise.

                  • U Avi October 27, 2011, 8:15 PM

                    Do you really think it is a good idea to argue about how “prestigious” your secular education is?

                    • Tinok ShenishBeth October 27, 2011, 9:19 PM

                      Good point. Plus – having grown up around ‘worldly’ and ‘prestigiously’ educated people, I can tell you a lot of them are douche-canoes.

            • A. Nuran October 28, 2011, 11:00 AM

              You’re not JPACYNYC. But your attitudes are in perfect harmony with his.

              • Dan October 28, 2011, 11:12 AM

                My attitudes? Again, Nuran and his ilk cannot fathom that anyone can disagree with them in good faith.
                You people are so arrogant it is shocking.
                Your arrogance is matched only by your ignorance.

          • Avrumy October 27, 2011, 10:03 AM

            See the Vaad of the Five Towns as an example of strong arm tactics.

            • Michaltastik October 31, 2011, 5:40 AM

              and Queens, don’t forget the Queens Vaad

              • Dan October 31, 2011, 7:45 AM

                It is funny, you all think hashgacha monopolies are bad. Presumably you mean bad for the consumer, since that is who we should care about.

                I think it is good for the consumer. Hashgacha agencies can compete on price, and on standards. I don’t want them competing on standards, with each promising the producer a lower standard, or competing on price with the effect being lower standards.
                And I’m even willing to pay a slightly higher price, as a result of a “monopoly premium”, if it means I don’t have to worry about competing on standards.

                I love Queens. You can eat at any shul, and at much more people’s houses, since you know that they bought it at a reliable store.

      • Dan October 27, 2011, 5:56 AM

        “At some point – after you have replaced, seperated, scrubbed, kashered, toiveled, and blow torched everything in your kitchen – there must be a point where it’s kosher enough”

        Yes but, how is that relevant to the discussion of shady hechsherim? The triangle k is not reliable, and no amount of torching your own kitchen will help if you keep bringing it in.

        • Tinok ShenishBeth October 27, 2011, 3:33 PM

          Effort. My point was about the effort one puts in to keeping a kosher home. Eating at someone’s house acknowledges that they have made the effort, and even though they don’t hold the same as you, it’s still ok.

          One does not get to apoint oneself mashgiach over one’s fellow Yiddens’ kitchens. It is rude, crude, and socially unacceptable.

          • Dan October 27, 2011, 3:38 PM

            Sorry. Effort does not make kosher. Not in my religion.

            Now, if you do your best effort, that is all G-d wants from you, even in my religion (actually, probably only in my religion, since you fault me for doing my best effort).

            But that doesn’t make it kosher. Kosher is an objective standard, and no amount of feel good liberal BS is going to change that.

            • Tinok ShenishBeth October 27, 2011, 5:47 PM

              If kosher were in fact an objective standard, bubelah, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

              • Tinok ShenishBeth October 27, 2011, 5:52 PM

                But at least you’re not being narrow-minded about it…

                • Dan October 27, 2011, 6:51 PM

                  Kosher is an objective standard. There is disagreement over what that objective standard is, but nobody (serious) thinks it depends on whether the person who cooked the food made an effort.

                  (But thanks for saying I’m not narrow minded. I’m not.)

                  • Tinok ShenishBeth October 27, 2011, 7:10 PM

                    If there is disagreement over what the objective standard is, then it isn’t an objective standard.

                    • U Avi October 27, 2011, 8:18 PM


                    • Dan October 27, 2011, 11:34 PM

                      That is not so. (and even if it is, we are just arguing over semantics. What I mean to say is that there is an absolute truth.)

                      Objective standard means that there is a truth and a false.

                      Taste is subjective, since everybody tastes differently. Value is subjective since everybody prices differently.

                      Whether the stock market will rise tomorrow is objective, even if we disagree about it.

                      Kosher is objective. Something is either kosher or not. People happen to disagree about it. (for example, Karo holds there is no cha”n”an by shaar issurim, while Isserlis holds there is). But it is still an objective truth.

  • anon October 28, 2011, 2:56 AM

    kosher is a standard, but some people attempt to skew it so much that only their kitchen is kosher and everyone else is a heretic. everyone can agree on a few basic principles to keep a kosher kitchen:

    -mammals must have cloven hooves and chew cud
    -birds are listed in the torah and are given by tradition (ie: turkey isn’t in torah but is kosher)
    -fish must have scales and fins
    -meat and milk from the same species must not be mixed (specifically cattle)
    -no blood
    -no wine from idol worshippers
    -utensils have to be kosher

    now, most people who keep kosher go beyond these basic standards and include all meat in the prohibition against mixing milk and meat because it was determined that different meats could be confused, and having seperate utensils for turkey/cow milk combinations and beef would make it easy to contaminate the food. but this is a reasonable “fence” around the mitzvah. it’s not halakah because it’s not in the torah, but most people follow this.

    there are tons of other restrictions that you could reasonably add to “kosher” that provide fences around mitzvot, such as having to have free range cattle or making sure that the owner feeds the animals before he feeds himself, but i seriously doubt you would have the same unflinching stringency to someone who kept by this standard as you expect everyone else should by your version of kosher.

    dan, that might make your ears steam, but not everything is halakah because it is traditional. it’s not halakah to not shake women’s/men’s hands, or for women to have their hair covered, but these are methods of observing the mitzvot of modesty and niddah. they are not halakah.

    how you want to observe judaism is fine, i have no problem with it and no one should. but if you think that it’s better to make a chillul hashem by publicly humiliating a person who has invited you into their home with other guests and has told you their kitchen is kosher by nitpicking about whether they use triangle K apple juice, rather than drinking the juice or just choosing to pass on it, i honestly think you have no concept of “torah judaism”.

    • Dan October 31, 2011, 8:11 AM

      You start off drawing a distinction between the written law and the oral law.
      This distinction has no effect, because we are equally bound to both. If you don’t agree with that, you are practicing a different religion, and I’m not sure why you think I would possibly eat in your house.

      Then you go from there to triangle-k? Heh? If you think triangle-k is not following halacha, then you should understand why I don’t eat it.

      Now, I will make fun of you:
      “mammals must have cloven hooves and chew cud”
      And must be slaughtered appropriately, as it says in the torah!

      “birds are listed in the torah and are given by tradition (ie: turkey isn’t in torah but is kosher)”
      Only the forbidden birds are listed. You are confusing the issue that we have forgotten the names of the birds, and now rely on tradition.

      “meat and milk from the same species must not be mixed (specifically cattle)”
      That is ridiculous. If you don’t believe in the oral law, then only goats are included, and only the actual mother’s milk and child.

      “no wine from idol worshippers”
      Where does it say that in the written torah?

      “utensils have to be kosher”
      Where does it say that in the torah? And what does it mean?

      Seriously, if you are going to be a karaite, at least be a knowledgeable one.

      • Anonymous nuisance October 31, 2011, 7:08 PM

        In Sefer Vayikra it states that all dishes and pots taken from idol-worshippers must be immersed in a mikvah. How we got from there to dipping brand-new china in a mikvah, I’ll never know. (Especially since china taken from idol worshippers must be broken).

  • Michaltastik October 28, 2011, 2:13 PM

    I just want to say that sometimes it’s never good enough. I’m a convert and no FFB has eaten anything from my kitchen. I gave a woman hard boiled eggs for Purim once and she gave them back to me. I’ve brought people food and they ask me why would I do that. BTs and converts will eat by me but no FFBs will eat my food. Wait, I think a woman who was a BT let her kids eat my food once, does that count if the FFB is 4?

    • Telz Angel October 29, 2011, 10:19 PM

      I’m an FFB. I would eat at your home if you told me that you keep kosher. You have a chezkas kashrus.

      If a man walks into a shul and says he is Jewish, the Gabbi can give him an aliyah. If he happens to be wearing a cross on his neck — no. Why? Simple: There is a “meegoo” (fancy gemara logic) that a person who claims to be Jewish is believed unless there is a reason to doubt it. I’d apply this logic here too. If you tell me you keep kosher, I will believe you, unless I happen to notice that you have non-kosher food on the counter-top. Those FFBs who do not eat at your house have neglected to read the text in Deut 10:19

      • Michaltastik October 31, 2011, 5:55 AM

        So, I better hide that ham and cheese sub!

        KIDDING!!! (I don’t even eat bread, either).

        No, my kitchen is VERY kosher. My dairy pots/pans, cutlery, cutting boards and plates are all blue and some big white spoons for serving.

        My fleishig is black or dark gray. The only exception is the storage containers which are marked with a marker. Also, I have separate drying racks and washing bins. I use wash clothes instead of sponges to wash my dishes as it’s more sanitary. If I am washing something parve, I change the wash clothes and wash it with a fresh one, not one that has been used with yad soldades bo on gendered dishes.

        I have been in peoples’ kitchens, FFBs do NOT keep so strictly. When mistakes are made (milchigs and fleishigs washed together in same hot water), they don’t do anything about it. Instead, they justify it. Furthermore, the issues of keeping things sanitary make me want to gag at the thought of eating by people. Not a kosher thing but one mother let her small children dry dishes and they weren’t using a towel, they were drying them with their bare hands that they were also coughing and sneezing all over-GAG!!

  • Michaltastik October 28, 2011, 2:16 PM

    Oh, and my kitchen is more kosher than most FFBs kitchen who are lazy and a mistake is made (Michig spoons in scalding water with fleishig spoons) Nah, it’s fine there was soap. Really? Cuz that sure as hell isn’t how my rabbi would pasken that one! (well, at least not for me, maybe converts get stricter results? ) Oh, wait, WE DO!!!

    • Dan October 28, 2011, 3:17 PM

      That is fascinating.
      If you have milchig and fleishig spoons in scalding water (let’s even imagine they are both cooking in a pot on the stove), with soap, the mechaber is meikel (95:4), but the shach and taz are both machmir (taz 95:15; shach 95:21). Nevertheless, our minhag is to rely on soap to make it muttar.

      But, I’m guessing your spoons were not cooking on a stove, but were in a dishpan, in a kli sheini. In this case, the rema says it is muttar even with no soap. 95:3.

      Now, maybe you are concerned that you poured hot water on them from a kli rishon. (I don’t think the sink is a kli rishon). If so, then if they have food on them, you should be machmir but if they don’t, it seems you can be meikel. See shach 95:20.

      I have no idea why any rabbi would tell you it is assur.

      Michaltastik: I’m going to also stop being caustic for a moment and say the following.
      It bothers you that FFB’s won’t eat in your kitchen. You take it as a slight to your geirus. And maybe it is.
      But maybe they are just honestly concerned. Does everything else you do, (ex. dress, covered hair if married), show that you are really practicing halacha? It sounds to me like you are being careful, since you are asking a rav the right questions.

      And may I go so far as to wonder: Do you think maybe the lax standards of many batei din regarding conversion (which is advocated by most on this website) contributes towards your friends not knowing whether you are actually keeping halacha?

      • Michaltastik October 31, 2011, 6:04 AM

        These are people who should know better. Yes, I wear skirts and double shirts. Some of the people who won’t eat my food will trust me in their kitchen. Methinks that it’s more like what A Nuran says. My black non Jewish friend said the same thing, “it’s a class issue.”

        Honestly, I know they do the same thing to BTs. The funny thing is that people will trust someone they don’t know simply based on what they wear.

        Also, if soap makes it all just peachy keen and dandy, why don’t we just wash all our dishes together? Why do we have these separate sponges? In fact, let’s forget sponges all together, let’s wash all dishes with cheese, especially fleishig. It should be ok, after all, there’s soap!

        • Dan October 31, 2011, 7:39 AM

          RE: The soap.
          Because there are certain things we are allowed to eat after the fact, if it happens, but we are not allowed to cause to begin with.
          Such as this example.

          In fact, often if you cause something prospectively on purpose, you will not be allowed to eat it even after the fact.

    • A. Nuran October 30, 2011, 4:08 AM

      The difference is that you are a nigger to them, not quite human. So they have to have Jim Crow laws to keep you away from Real People. That means law, custom, superstition and just plain cruelty are acceptable tools to keep you in your place.

      • Critic October 30, 2011, 10:23 AM

        “The difference is that you are a nigger to them, not quite human”
        Who is the “them” that your’e referring to?
        “That means law, custom, superstition and just plain cruelty are acceptable tools to keep you in your place.”
        That’s quite a condemnation.I know of individuals who one could describe as being “Chareidi” who as a matter of principal do not eat “out” whether it be a restaurant or the home of anyone no matter how religious that person may be but not for the reasons you state above.I don’t agree with their approach however I don’t condemn them but respect their right to be as stringent as they please as long as they don’t try to foist their religiosity on me.

        • Michaltastik October 31, 2011, 6:21 AM

          “Them” are the FFBs that think they are superior to all gerim and BTs. It’s not a condemnation FROM A Nuran. I do believe he’s a secular Israeli (prolly OTD), but I could be wrong.

          It’s a fact that that’s how people think. I was recently dining by a woman I don’t really know, I ate by her only once before, both times through the same hospitality committee. She asked me about dating. I told her I don’t want to date, I don’t have the energy for men’s attempts to manipulate me and all the other games that they play. I told her, “you must know how it is because you just said that your daughter is late 20’s and single.” Well, instead of sympathizing with me as I sort of thought (silly me), she told me I should contact a certain rabbi because he knows a russian guy converting and if I don’t want a convert, he knows a black Ethiopian Jew that I could date. I thought about playing dumb and trying to verbally back her into a clarification of her condescension, but I didn’t bother. I just didn’t say anything.

          Anyway, it was clear to me what she was saying: converts, non-Jewish immigrants and blacks are on the same level, as long as I stay away from those precious FFBs and even American BTs.

          Yeah, I’d rather stay single than marry someone I don’t find attractive.

  • Critic October 29, 2011, 5:01 PM

    I would say that there are ways of dealing with situations where one’s religious beliefs, whether halachic or chumra based, are challenged by the mores of civility and appropriate behavior.Each situation is of course different and there is no one specific panacea for all.A little seichel however can go along way in dealing with these issues which reminds me of the following incident.
    The Lubavitcher Rebbe when faced with a situation where a woman attempted to shake his hand said to her “My mother taught me never to touch something that doesn’t belong to me”.

  • jjj October 30, 2011, 10:15 AM

    What is kosher is what your rabbi says is kosher – therefor not objective
    or also what he declares as a minhag of all yisroel is also halacha – also not objective – he doesn’t give time/place and percentage who adhere to the minhag
    that applies to all of halacha/mitzvot

    • Dan October 30, 2011, 10:49 AM

      I don’t think you know what objective means.

      I quote from Dictionary dot com:
      “of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.”

      Meaning, that it is not affected by your personal opinions, but rather exists as a matter of fact. Ex. You and I disagree on whether the Yankees or Red Sox are a better team- yet it is objective fact that one of them is better.

      Similarly, your rabbi and mine may disagree on whether something is kosher, yet it is objective fact- and one of them must be right and one must be wrong.

  • Critic October 30, 2011, 10:58 AM

    “What is kosher is what your rabbi says is kosher – therefor not objective”
    Kosher is what Halacha says is kosher and therefore is objective.Any Rabbi worthy of the title makes his determination based on Halacha not personal opinion.
    “What he declares as a minhag of all yisroel is also halacha.”
    There are few minhagim that that would be called “minhag of all yisroel”.Minhagim differ from one another on the basis of familial origins such as country, religious affiliations etc.And yes a minhag Yisroel is considered Halacha based on the dictum of Chazal that “minhag Yisroel din hu”.

    • jjj October 30, 2011, 4:50 PM

      what is a ” minhag of all Yisroel”. How is it determined. How do you know if a rabbi is ruling based on halacha vs. personal opinion?

      • Critic October 30, 2011, 7:18 PM

        As mentioned on a prior post, with few exceptions there is no such animal as ” minhag of all Yisroel”.Minhagim differ from one another on the basis of familial origins such as country, religious affiliations etc.For example Jews whose origins stem from Poland may have certain minhagim that are different then those from Hungary or Lithuania,Yeshivish different then Chassidish or MO.There are many variables to numerous to mention here.
        “How do you know if a rabbi is ruling based on halacha vs. personal opinion?”
        Try to educate yourself by learning some Halacha on your own.There are so many publications in English on Halacha so that doing research is not as formidable as it once was.There are many good sources on the internet that deal with Halacha.
        Choose your Rabbi wisely.There are many “Rabbis” out there who are great orators but most of them are not poskim,not versed in the intricacies of Halacha.I would choose a Rabbi with a good reputation based on honesty and scholarship.
        Halacha is based on the Shulchan Orech. We do not determine a Halacha based on Gemorah. Sefardim base most of Halachic determination on The Bais Yoseif,R’Yosaif Karo,Ashkinazim on the Ramo.R’Moshe Isserlis.The Mishna Berurah or Shulchan Orech Horav are used many nowadays.Of course there are more intricate and difficult Halachic questions which should be addressed to a recognized posaik.

    • jjj October 30, 2011, 4:53 PM

      i have been told over and over again you have to abide with what the rabbi says – not look at the gamara and schulchan aurich.

      so which determines halacha – a rabbi or gamara?

    • jjj October 30, 2011, 5:51 PM

      What do you have to say about halacha inflation.

      I was at an orthodox shul in an area i was visiting and heard the rabbi in his shabbos lecture say how happy he was that there were 1000’s more halachos than before.

      To me
      a) the more halachos the more averos? make sense no.

      b) the more halachos the more halachos it taskes to complete a given mitzvah. Isn’t the objective to do mitzvahs and if there are more and more requirements for a mitzvah – than less mitzvahs will be performed.

      c) what was good last year – is not good this year.

      • Critic October 30, 2011, 7:26 PM

        “I was at an orthodox shul in an area i was visiting and heard the rabbi in his shabbos lecture say how happy he was that there were 1000?s more halachos than before.”
        I would assume that he is referring Halchic questions that were not addressed in earlier times such as the usage of electricity on Shabbos or Yom Tov as one example.

  • jjj October 30, 2011, 10:36 PM

    no i was not.

    all those thousands over the recent years (not since 1800) were only about new phenomenon? Ha? You make a fine lawyer.

    Like no showering on shabbos – new halachos and chumras – like showering didn’t exist in biblical times.

  • jjj October 30, 2011, 10:52 PM

    electricity itself is quite old – so what are recent halachos about ? relativity? Give me a break?

  • Critic October 30, 2011, 11:06 PM

    Look I don’t know what your game is here.You asked me a question which I assumed was an honest one and attempted to answer in good faith. You don’t like the answer? I have no problem with that.Maybe you should look for answers elsewhere.Good luck to you in your search for the truth.
    “You make a fine lawyer”
    Maybe I am. LOL

  • jjj October 30, 2011, 11:10 PM

    Which of these are considered minhag of all yisroel?

    a) wearing yarmulka
    b) second day yom tov
    c) kiddush levana
    d) lighting shabbos candles
    e) eating meat on shabbos
    f) challie for shabbos (as opposed to non-braided bread)

  • jjj October 31, 2011, 5:24 PM

    my point is I am reacting to what u said e.g.

    “Kosher is what Halacha says is kosher and therefore is objective”

    Not in my opinion.

    There is not even a thing called halacha – there are many many versions of halacha – at least one for each rabbi . I have read of halacha as being a “process”. Therefore there may not be definitive agreement on anything.

    • Dan October 31, 2011, 5:38 PM

      “Kosher is what Halacha says is kosher and therefore is objective”
      “Not in my opinion.”

      Sure. But then we aren’t practicing the same religion. And will not be able to agree on any premises. And until we agree on premises, what is the point of discussing.

      Meaning, if I thought “there is not even a thing called halacha”, of course I would agree that one shouldn’t make a big deal out of it.
      And presumably, if you actually believed that there was halacha which was objective and binding, then you would agree that a person should stick up for what he believes in.

      So we agree.

  • jjj November 1, 2011, 7:52 AM

    What does it mean to be objective

    a) dict definition:

    b) objectivity in science

    The indication in science that an analysis is objective is that it be testable and reproduceable.

    In this sense, I don’t believe halacha is objective.

    What is your view of this?

  • jjj November 1, 2011, 7:57 AM

    In science “objective” means an analysis is testable and reproducable (by others). The gross level of halacha may meet this criteria e.g. all orthodox rabbis agree that a cow is a kosher animal and a pig is not. However, when it comes to the operational level of halachos e.g. what can we eat and what can’t we actually eat, analysis is not reproduceable accross rabbis or across time (even for things that have not undergone technological change).

    That’s my opinion, can I here from others?

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