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Just because youre shomer negiah, doesnt mean youretznius

The other day when I wrote about the awkward shomer negiah moments in that proposal video one of the commenters posited that it was weird for the girl to be shomer negiah and wear such a short skirt. Granted her cute little pasty white knees were showing, but that doesnt really qualify us to judge her on the choice of skirt and. It just so happens to be that her skirt probably covered her knees while standing and it was only by accident that her knees were shown to 25,000 people on you tube, I am quite sure that had she realized everyone was watching the video she would have covered her knees with bulletproof stockings, but then she wouldnt have provided the unearthly pleasures of watching extreme awkward shomer negiah couples push the sexual tension into the back of their minds and there has to be a mitzvah in providing that joy.

Anyway, the commenter stated that being shomer negiah and dressing untzniusly (tznius is one of those sort of halachic items that is definitely relative and subjective) was wrong, that she cant have it both ways. Whats that supposed to mean? Does that mean that girls who dont dress to yours or anyones standards of tznius should break another halacha by touching guys? What does one have to do with the other? It seems that people have decided to mix tznius and shomer negiah into one halacha and despite the fact that they are somewhat related, they are not one and the same.

I myself have been bothered by the phenomena of shomer negiah cock teases in the frum community, I used to be deeply bothered by it (like why waste such goodness on saving it for marriage) but now I am only slightly bothered by it because I understand it a bit more. For those who dont know what I am talking about, allow me to explain. I remember meeting these girls who wore skinny jeans and halter tops telling me they were shomer negiah and I became incensed, how could they be flaunting all that stuff, tempting us men with their goodies and then say they dont touch us? That has go to be wrong right? I was convinced that they were putting a stumbling block in front of men because they had the power to do so, not because they actually wanted to follow halacha, wasnt it worse to lead men down the wrong road, they should just put out and stop being such halachic cock teases.

Of course nowadays I understand that the anomaly of the shomer negiah tease is more like the woman who wear tank tops and hair covering, they have able to separate hilchos tznius and other halachos that seem similar but arent. Sure, Im still bothered when a marginally tznius cute girl Im into tells me shes shomer negiah, but I actually commend them on it, because thats one of those tough things to keep regardless of how you dress. I also find that a lot of time (Im pretty sure Ive written about this) girls will tell guys they are shomer negiah so they will leave them alone and not make it awkward for the girl to bluntly state (usually by text nowadays which takes the bluntness out of it) that they are shomer negiah. I remember a girl I was really into told me she was shomer and several months later I saw her locking tongue with this is other dude I knew and Im sure plenty of people have experienced this usage of halacha as an excuse to avoid someone or something.

The message here is a powerful one, Im really trying to say that just because you misstep in one halacha, doesnt mean you cant keep a similar one and its important to realize that not everyone is up to your standards when it comes to tznius.

{ 104 comments… add one }
  • Sergeant J January 11, 2011, 1:50 PM

    I think girls who lie about being shomer do a disservice to truly shomer girls. Of course, some girls are genuinely flaky, and vacillate between shomer and less than shomer.

  • Leeba January 11, 2011, 2:11 PM

    This is a good post, Heshy.

  • Telz Angel January 11, 2011, 2:29 PM

    If I were a leg man. yada yada yada bidi bidi bidi bidi bum.
    all day long I’d … http://vimeo.com/15104826

    If I were in Bet Shemeh… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhob7kZcjYk

    • Leeba January 12, 2011, 12:06 AM

      These are hilarious videos! You WIN!

      • Telz Angel January 12, 2011, 8:12 AM

        Thanks. FWIW, the Bet Shemesh Video was much better with the music. (Laverne and Shirley, Guns n’ Roses, I’m too sexy, etc.) But they were removed by YouTube.

        • Leeba January 13, 2011, 8:04 PM

          I saw the Bet Shemesh one…I think the link came up in my email. Loved the music as it was so perfect! Gotta love a burkah babe drinking her coffee! LOL!

    • Mahla January 13, 2011, 7:10 AM

      Those were AWESOME! :^D

  • Anna January 11, 2011, 2:53 PM

    so Im curious if you chose to dress tnzuitly but have a boyfriend and youre not shoma negiah does that mean that you have dress with less clothes because theres no point coz youre not shoma with your boyfriend…. its kind of a personal choice I know sometimes I feel compelled to do both or whats the point of doing one if I dont do the other. But I believe G-d does not want us to take on more than we can handle ‘growth wise’, I believe G-d does not want us taking on shoma negiah out of pressure or Jewish community guilt, your true friends will accept you for you and not judge you on the level you choose to observe.
    I’ve been struggling with this spiritual dilemma ever since high school when the book ‘The magic touch’ by Gila Manolson, the craze then was that you should be shoma negiah although they still being a modern orthodox school influenced co-ed trips to Jewish camps/movements, they never gave us a sex ed, it was just assumed that we’d go to sem get married and never need really to worry about ‘urges’ etc. I didn’t like the way girls in my class would treat touching a boy like a ‘dirty thing’ if you so much as hugged a boy you were a slut. Besides half the girls in my class were very slutty round boys because we were never given a healthy view of an alternative, we were very confused and lost, so we just rebelled did the opposite. Fortunately I left school early found less religious/close minded friends and its the best thing I ever did coz I’m so much happier being true to me. 🙂

  • Anna January 11, 2011, 3:02 PM

    it wont let me comment for some reason… so here it is again…
    so Im curious if you chose to dress tnzuitly but have a boyfriend and youre not shoma negiah does that mean that you have dress with less clothes because theres no point coz youre not shoma with your boyfriend…. its kind of a personal choice I know sometimes I feel compelled to do both or whats the point of doing one if I dont do the other. But I believe G-d does not want us to take on more than we can handle ‘growth wise’, I believe G-d does not want us taking on shoma negiah out of pressure or Jewish community guilt, your true friends will accept you for you and not judge you on the level you choose to observe.
    I’ve been struggling with this spiritual dilemma ever since high school when the book ‘The magic touch’ by Gila Manolson, the craze then was that you should be shoma negiah although they still being a modern orthodox school influenced co-ed trips to Jewish camps/movements, they never gave us a sex ed, it was just assumed that we’d go to sem get married and never need really to worry about ‘urges’ etc. I didn’t like the way girls in my class would treat touching a boy like a ‘dirty thing’ if you so much as hugged a boy you were a slut. Besides half the girls in my class were very slutty round boys because we were never given a healthy view of an alternative, we were very confused and lost, so we just rebelled did the opposite. Fortunately I left school early found less religious/close minded friends and its the best thing I ever did coz I’m so much happier being true to me. 🙂

    • Yankel January 12, 2011, 12:33 PM

      The word is “Shomer” as in ‘guarding the prohibitions of…’
      Like “Shomer Shabbos” one who guards shabbos… you get the picture.

  • Bone January 11, 2011, 3:26 PM

    It is a good post for sure. Consider the female baalot teshuva. Maybe they are taking on as much as they feel comfortable with, and you happen to be seeing them in the midst of their process. Keep in mind that those who become frum overnight (as I did about 30 years ago) don’t hold on as long (again, as I did 29 years ago, lol). Those who do it gradually stay frum much longer. Maybe she’s more comfy in not touching a guy as opposed to changing her entire wardrobe just yet. She probably still has non frum or even non-Jewish friends that she wants to keep and feels awkward about suddenly wearing the tznius style in front of them. Theres any number of reasons why.
    On the other side there is probably just as many girls who look the look and talk the talk but then go and make out in cars and wherever. I know for a fact that my own brother nailed quite a few BY girls while they were still in BY, long before the Hot Chanie phenomena even started. Then they would walk home with their frum friends as if nothing happened. Though I’m sure the friends wondered what that smell was, lol. Or maybe had to say “Chana Frayda, whats that stuff on your chin?”

    • Leeba January 11, 2011, 3:52 PM


      • Bone January 11, 2011, 3:59 PM

        Like that huh? Whats that stuff on YOUR chin, Leeba? Oh wait, you told me you never miss a drop.

        • Anonymous January 11, 2011, 9:35 PM

          It’s snowing yay

    • A. Nuran January 12, 2011, 7:25 PM

      Pure truth right up until that last sentence.

    • Anonymous May 18, 2011, 9:19 AM

      Yup, that’s me. A female baal teshuva still very much “in the process”, and in my current position I’ve transitioned to “more or less” shomer negiah (some of my non-frum friends just don’t get it) but I simply can’t bring myself to wear skirts anywhere close to full-time yet. Both are things I’m working on, but as a girl who attended a public school for the entirety of her formative years, where everyone did anything with anyone else, it’s not going to happen overnight. Yet even people at frum establishments–kosher restaurants, for example–the non-frum people working there, who know the rules and wouldn’t dare touch a woman wearing a long skirt and a tichul, don’t think twice about physical interaction with me. And not just, like, brushing my hand when giving me my change–I had a one of these said guys clap me on the shoulder in a friendly salutation as I left a kosher restaurant in a frum neighborhood recently. Now that I think about it, he actually might have been Jewish, though that’s neither here nor there. Just because I’m friendly and wear pants doesn’t mean I’m not frum (or getting there)! It’s an insult to the years of work I’ve put into getting where I am and the ridiculous amount of friends/relationships, money, comfort, etc. I’ve given up just to get to this point. I have enough confusion, doubt and frustration just in dealing myself with the whole BT “process”…days I want to just say “screw it” and go see a movie with my friends from high school on Friday night…or be in a theatrical production, something in which I was always so heavily involved but haven’t been able to even once since becoming shomer Shabbos…or even something silly like eat a cheeseburger. I don’t need more from strangers I encounter.

      The thing is, this experience isn’t limited to the baal teshuvah; there are plenty of Jews, whether BT, FFB, non-frum as well, who are struggling with their spiritualities and religious identity. For this reason, it’s important to remember the mitzvah of dan l’kaf zechut/giving people the benefit of the doubt. Unless you know one’s every thought, life experience, feeling and influence, you really can’t know what one’s motivations and reasons are for the things one does. I’m sure frum people look at me when I’m in the local kosher supermarket (and boy, do they–from their children in particular do I get the humorously named but sadly common Boro Park Stare) and wonder what a non-Jew/non-frum person is doing there…yet simultaneously my family and friends from back home think of me as the religious nut. Go figure. The point is, you never know what’s going on inside these people, their thoughts, their struggles, their efforts, their trials and tribulations. Go easy on them, okay?

  • Daniel January 11, 2011, 3:30 PM

    The girl in the youtube clip was named “Chavie”. She warn’t no BT

    • Michaltastik January 11, 2011, 11:01 PM

      BTs and converts aren’t allowed to dress like that because every jumps down our throats. Short skirts are reserved for “FFBs” whatever that means, cuz it sure don’t mean FRUM from birth.

      • Yankel January 13, 2011, 7:23 AM

        Michal, you don’t have to bag on the frummies for every inconsistancy they have. There are logical reasons for everything, even if in the big picture it ends up not being fair for some.

        Mini-skirts are not “reserved” for ffbs. Any FFB who walks out in one will be considered a filthy sl*t and will be get suggested to homeless guys when it comes to shidduchim (maybe that’s why so many FFB rebels do their own shidduch).

        What you’re probably refering to, is that no-one asks any questions about an FFB who rebels. It’s pretty clear what’s going on. She was born frum, and doesn’t really care for it that much, but isn’t throwing it all away either. However, when a Baalas Teshuva or Giores wears untznius cloths, it sort of puts a question mark in peoples’ minds. Because by making a life decision to become religious, you are essentially saying “This really means something to me”. So when the cloths don’t match the message, people look at it as strange, as if the person can’t decide if they are or aren’t religious.

        I think it’s wrong, but at the same time I think it’s reality.

  • Ell January 11, 2011, 3:33 PM

    I was a very tznius and completely shomer girl….until I met the guy I would marry. Girls can be shomer theory and as much as they can and than a certain someone comes along and changes everything.

    I have a hard time believing that couple is shomer, behind closed doors. On video camera, being the kids they are from the background they come from, of COURSE they wouldn’t do anything on camera.

    • yiz January 11, 2011, 4:42 PM

      first of all, although they didnt write thier last name, i did a little detective work and found on onlysimchas.com, that its langer and glatt. 2-i cant imagine why u care what they do behind closed doors. Can u imagine heshy writing an article on what YOU and ur spouse do in private?!?!

      • Ell January 11, 2011, 5:42 PM

        1 – not sure why you felt the need to share that info with all of us.
        2 – I do think there is a correlation between how long a skirt is and how shomer a couple is (behind closed doors). Of course there are exceptions but I would guess there is a connection between very careful about tznius and very careful about negiah.

        oh — and that would be quite the article 😉

        • Ell January 11, 2011, 6:17 PM

          I’d counter Heshy’s title ‘Just because you’re shomer in public doesn’t mean you are shomer negiah’

  • Anonymous January 11, 2011, 4:04 PM

    No dumping!!!!!

  • Anonymous January 11, 2011, 4:04 PM

    Bla bla

  • Anonymous January 11, 2011, 4:48 PM

    It is asur for women to dress in a provocative way. If a man is tempted by a married women it is avizrayhu daishes ish!

  • ipitythefoo January 11, 2011, 6:08 PM

    This whole post really makes me think of the general topic of expectations.The idea of Shomer Negiah is a hell of a lot more difficult than dressing tzniusly, but frankly, I don’t think that any man can really understand the determination between the two, unless he dresses in Chassidishe garb all the time. It is difficult to wear tznius clothing, especially if you live in an especially cold or warm climate. In Miami you want to wear a bikini, in Minnesota you want to wear snow pants… BUT for the average person NOTHING comparesz to the need for human intimacy. This is where the problem arises. Frum men don’t see the difficulty in wearing tznius clothing, especially not the cleverly disguised MO in jeans and polos. They presume a girl ‘lazy’ enough to neglect tznius MUST be easy. The problem NOW is that guys are inclined to group women into vague categories “MO” “yeshivish” “mizrachi” … to determine their boundaries without ever broaching the subject. As someone who has drifted between these categories, I have clearly experienced the difference. As a Bais Yaakov girl – with the uniform that is – guys seemed intimidated to make a move, almost afriad that I would get offended. Mind you, I wasn’t really all that frum at the time. But none of those guys really asked, in fact they would never have known I was waiting for a “move,” had I not told them. Then, when I did find myself religiously, developing into a self-assured, principled individual with a more “Mizrachi-MO” perspective and look… Well, it calls to mind a particular incident, pinned under a rather muscular, post-yeshiva bochur in his car in the dark. Once you don’t wear the ‘uniform’ it seems there is some expectation that you lose all standards and limitations. No, my exposed knees do not suggest I will suck your d!ck, even if you pay for dinner. No, the lowering of my neckline does not entail the lowering of every standard I have ever held, even if we go to the movies. Finally, my jean skirt does not come off at the slightest brush against a thigh perfectly familiar with your sort of wandering hands, even after you were kind enough to hold hands at your parent’s house.
    The next layer is plain and simple temptation. If you do pull good moves, I might give in… I may fall for it and will probably not feel bad. Why? Because it is natural. Basically, its hard and you’re hard and I can’t usually push past that.
    TAG LINE: The test is to fight our nature as sexual beings and overcome it wholly, engaging under the right circumstances exclusively.
    It’s too bad that no amout of intellectual understanding of the issue really matters when your pinned under a muscular post-yeshiva bochur, in a car in the dark, who has expectations. EVEN once you’ve ‘found’ yourself religiously.

    • Leeba January 12, 2011, 12:10 AM

      Nice, honest comment. Thanks for that.

  • anonymous January 11, 2011, 7:38 PM

    The ikar is that these “girls,” and their older counterparts, “women,” are basically 100% completely full of crap. All of them. Yes.

    Shomer negiah for girls basically means I haven’t YET found a guy I find to be attractive enough or a big enough asshole to me and my friends to want to bang his brains out-YET. Girls, and women, are fickle, feeble, whimsical, hormonal roller-coasters who have no reservations about saying one thing and then letting their ovaries dictate how far they will go in reality. Guys: don’t be fooled by their bullshit! If a girl tells you she is shomer, or that she doesn’t date yet, or some other b.s. where you think she actually has integrity or stands for something, let me tell you- SHE DOESN’T. She is basically holding out for someone wealthier, more influential, better looking, or just plain better-anything than you. Don’t take it personally; she certainly doesn’t. She never gave a rat’s ass about you, or starting a holy Jewish family, or building a “BNB.” These are all code words for “I hope he is loaded and hot and has a huge dick.”

    Girls can’t help being totally full of crap-society encourages girls to be lying, sneaky little brats, as any CW show will reveal within 14 seconds. Don’t be sad, my brethren! Go to any singles event for ages 27-39 and look at all the pathetic women, droves and droves of them, who were turning down guys JUST LIKE YOU a mere 5 or 10 years ago, holding out for someone better. They start to wrinkle a bit too, especially the “social smokers.” Some of them have a little jowl thing going on too, probably from all the BJ’s they give now just to score a date nowadays with some dorky, socially awkward paralegal schmuck with crazy amounts of debt. Way to go, ladies! Rejection tastes just as bitter on the way back, don’t it? Shidduch Karma’s a bitch, what can I tell ya?

    If you think I have been too vulgar or blunt just now, feel free to approach me at any singles event for ages 27-39; I’ll be the guy in the corner laughing at the droves of pathetic single Jewish women as I eat some whore d’ovaries (is that how you spell it?). ahhhhhh, that felt good:)

    • CompulsiveHandWasher January 12, 2011, 12:41 AM

      Complex from being rejected by too many women? If you’re this much of a misogynistic asshole in real life there’s really no wonder why.

  • OfftheDwannaB January 11, 2011, 7:43 PM

    You make a good point Heshy, though I think if frum girls took into account the male perspective, they’d be a little bit more sensitive and tone it down.

    • Mahla January 11, 2011, 8:08 PM

      I think many women do not fully appreciate the effect that immodest dress has on men and the poor position it puts them (the men) in.

      • Shrink January 11, 2011, 8:54 PM

        I strongly disagree…very very much, in fact. I am not talking about a perv that gets hard looking at a woman in a long skirt and sweatshirt-I mean most women know when they are looking good, or are at least trying to look good. I don’t belive for a second that a woman gets all dressed up (or dressed down) and is completely oblivious that a guy is checking her out. Its the kick she gets out of it…her sense of control-look what I can do and these guys look at me.

      • Michaltastik January 11, 2011, 11:11 PM

        I believe to the contrary. They know FULL WELL what they are doing and the torture they havoc. Women know that if they dress like a tznius slut they will get married. If they continued after married, they will keep their man.

        The men may complain with their mouthes and fingers but they sure as whatever ain’t complaining with their actions…. and women know that.

        • OfftheDwannaB January 11, 2011, 11:39 PM

          It’s interesting to hear the female side on this, and from two separate angles. Maybe you’re both right, depending on who’s doing it.

      • talking stam January 12, 2011, 4:23 PM

        i agree with you on this one, mahla. although women are usually aware when dressing provocatively that they are acquiring attention from men, they do not usually fully understand how much of an impact they have on the men. i, too, used to dress “frum sexy” because i thought the attention was positive. but being married many years and learning more about the male psyche, i have toned it down tremendously. i really believe that most religious girls that dress this way have no clue. very, very few actually want the attention they are unknowingly receiving.

  • anonymous January 11, 2011, 7:49 PM

    Beware of any girl who has a tendency to answer reasonable, legitimate questions with “I don’t think it’s shayich,” or “It’s not K’dai.”

    “Hey, do you want to go out with me, nothing serious, no obligations?”

    Girl: “I don’t think it’s shayich.”

    “Wow, what a nice, ambiguously self-righteous answer from someone supposedly majoring in communications. Well, how about a little make-out session at my place then?”

    Girl: “It’s not K’Dai.”

    “Oh, ok. Hey, nice speaking with you, and thanks for preemptively occupying my next 23 sessions of therapy trying to decipher what the fuck you just said. Have a good Shabbos!”

    Girl: “Good Shabbos.”

    As I have learned, such girls are, in fact, crazy possessed demonic Satan-seed psychobitches. Don’t take it personally, men. Like she said, it’s just not Shayich. What are you gonna do…

    • Michaltastik January 11, 2011, 11:13 PM

      I’ll help you out. She’s not interested, suck it up and drive on. HooooH!

  • ipitythefoo January 11, 2011, 8:50 PM

    I sincerely hope my comment isn’t lost to the abyss

  • Angry Shrink-testing 1 2 3 January 11, 2011, 8:57 PM

    Your blog sux. I am not sure what the F is wrong, but none of my posts have gone through. NONE- there are no inappropriate words. Please figure out how to fix this…others are getting pissed, as well.

    • Shrink January 11, 2011, 8:58 PM

      so my testing 123 gets posted, but my other ones don’t…how is this?

      • Mahla January 11, 2011, 9:36 PM

        Did you try to include any links? Links will do it too.

        • Heshy Fried January 11, 2011, 11:17 PM

          since I work from 2:30 – 10:30pm pacific standard time your comments will be stuck in moderation until I can get to them – if you want to estimate moderation times just check the weather for San Jose – tomorrow it will be 63 and sunny so no moderation will take place before I get home from work.

  • A. Nuran January 11, 2011, 9:55 PM

    It is possible to be a complete trollop while dressed in a burqa.
    It’s possible, very likely actually, to be modest and chaste while dressed in absolutely nothing.

    It’s all a matter of intention.

    • OfftheDwannaB January 11, 2011, 11:34 PM

      I found something that made me think of you. Go to your favorite torrent site and search for “enlightened mans book collection”. You’ll love it.

      • A. Nuran January 13, 2011, 8:09 AM

        Thanks for the reference. It was an interesting mix. Some of it is True Facts. Some of it is Utter Nonsense. All of it – with the exception of La Vey’s stuff, was worth looking at.

        • OfftheDwannaB January 13, 2011, 8:57 AM

          Glad you enjoyed. I didn’t know who La Vey is till you mentioned him. Wow, quite the character. His name is really Levey (Jewish father). His kid’s name is Satan Xerxes Carnacki LaVey. LOL!

          • A. Nuran January 13, 2011, 3:41 PM

            “Was”, actually. He died a few years back. His Church of Satan is still around. There’s usually a contingent of these Rugged Individualists at the H.P. Lovecraft Film Festival. All dressed the same 🙂

          • Mahla January 13, 2011, 5:11 PM

            OMG that is crazy. :^O

  • frum single female January 11, 2011, 10:00 PM

    good points. i will say that shomer negiah is also a broader issue . its not just religious in nature. no one is required not to be shomer negiah if one wears jeans or goes mixed swimming. just because a woman may not dress to the letter according to the laws of tznius does not mean she is a slut and every woman who dresses like a bais yaakov girl is not necessarily pure as the driven snow. one cannot always judge a person by the way they dress. and this applies to everyone and everything.
    the classic story of the woman who is raped and the jury is ready to say she was asking for it because she was wearing a short skirt. im not saying that women should not be careful about what she wears in public so that they dont give a man the wrong ideas about her but this does not mean that a man isnt responsible for his own actions . a man is still responsilbe for his actions no matter what a woman is wearing.

    • Leeba January 12, 2011, 1:28 AM

      Good points, Frum Single Female.
      My next sister up in age, who I love so dearly, was a slut in tznius clothing that made her appear as pure as the driven snow.

      I walked to school in a long skirt and heeled clogs and a sweater and came straight home, yet a boy once gave me a lift home from school (1.2miles away) as it was hurricane season and pissing down rain. My mother nearly killed me when I got in the house as I had “..been in a car with a boy! The neighbours saw and you are nothing but a dirty slut…”

      “Yes, ma’am. I accepted the lift as there are gale force winds and a tornado warning out there and I was in the car with him but …” then I went to my room and did my homework.

      My dear sister (one of 5 more) on the other hand used to go to the ‘library’ at least 4 times during the week to study with her friend. I went with them once as I needed a book for a project and they dropped me off, went on their way, came back smashed and half-dressed and laughing and picked me up in the rain an hour after the library had closed.

      Of course, I was branded for life as the slut who accepted the lift home from the boy.

      I think that we are all responsible for our own actions…man or woman. Trust me, even some very covered up men are damn hot. Women can be the same. A lot of it is how they conduct themselves and if they smile or laugh or are nice or polite or just hot looking. Yet, it doesn’t send me flying over the mechitza in the shul just because I enjoy watching his butt when he davens. Self control. Maybe he is looking at my boobs but they are there and I am not cutting them off just to appear less curvaceous.

      • Nate January 12, 2011, 12:38 PM

        Without pictures I can not comment on the boob statement.

        • Leeba January 12, 2011, 9:30 PM

          If you knew who I was, I am sure you could easily find a photo or two.

          Oh well..

  • Hamsa January 11, 2011, 10:24 PM

    That is sad that some women don’t feel like the autonomy of their persons is sufficiently respected by their community to the extent that they feel a need to pretend to hold a practice in order to avoid touch by people who feel like they have some kind of right to touch them.

    I also find that a lot of time (Im pretty sure Ive written about this) girls will tell guys they are shomer negiah so they will leave them alone and not make it awkward for the girl to bluntly state (usually by text nowadays which takes the bluntness out of it) that they are shomer negiah. I remember a girl I was really into told me she was shomer and several months later I saw her locking tongue with this is other dude I knew and Im sure plenty of people have experienced this usage of halacha as an excuse to avoid someone or something.

    • Michaltastik January 11, 2011, 11:20 PM

      When I was in the process of conversion this married man tried to fix my scarf in front of both his wife and another woman from the shul (holy inappropriate!) and I protested saying that I was Shomer Negiah. They said, “are you allowed to be Shomer? You’re not Jewish?” I snapped back, “I can’t decide who touches my body? Get your hands off me.” Not every woman will do that though, so they might just…. you know, go passive-aggressive and lie.

      • ghottistyx January 12, 2011, 12:22 AM

        You know the whole “Shiktzas Are for Practice” adage? The broader problem being it’s okay to violate any mitzva bein adam l’chaveiro so long as it’s on a goy.

        Of course, I have asked friends and family nicely to never use the word shiktza around me (especially the ones who do speak Yiddish and know what the word really means).

        Now children, does anyone here still wonder what a Chillull HaShem is? One hint: anti-Semitism does not exist just because Jews have big noses. I’d say the prevalent attitude many have toward the goyyim does the trick.

        • Michaltastik January 12, 2011, 12:54 AM

          Doesn’t shiksa mean, “thing you should stay away from”?

          • Mahla January 12, 2011, 7:25 AM

            I thought it meant “vermin.” Now I’m curious!

            • Sergeant J January 12, 2011, 10:25 AM

              Vermin is not a good translation, as shiksa only applies to people as far as I know. Either way, it’s less than polite.

              • ghottistyx January 12, 2011, 3:11 PM

                No, Shiktza does not only apply to people. The root Sh-K-Tz in Hebrew is the word for abominable. And yes, if one looks at the sections in the torah that discuss Kosher animals, there are two terms used–“sheketz” and “tamei”. Sheketz is the term used for some seafood, some birds and for all insects. The word Sheketz holds a double meaning of not just being impure, but also loathsome. So yes, I’ve heard it used as “vermin” as well.

                The common usage of Shiktza nowadays is a non-Jew who dates a Jew (or “Shaygetz” for a man). Really, are we so insecure with ourselves that we have to resort to this? At least “goy” only means “nation”, that term in of itself is not offensive. But why do we have to resort to treating non-Jews as vermin?

                • Nate January 12, 2011, 4:26 PM

                  ‘Cuz they are. Why do you think it’s forbidden to marry them, professor liberal smartguy?

                  • ghottistyx January 12, 2011, 4:31 PM

                    Cuz if someone like you even tried, he’d probably get a nice swift kick in the nuts.

                • A. Nuran January 12, 2011, 9:31 PM

                  Why? Otherwise we might make friends with them, get to know them and maybe even share genes with them.

        • Michaltastik January 12, 2011, 1:07 PM

          First off, it’s really not nice the way people hold this “I speak Yiddish therefore I know what it REALLY means but I’m too nice to tell you” thing over the heads of us who don’t speak Yiddish.

          Second, I have a friend who isn’t so mean who is an OTD that grew up speaking Yiddish. I texted said friend and found out that it means abomination… and seafood. Frummies in Israel use it for secular women who dress slutty even.

      • A. Nuran January 12, 2011, 12:36 PM

        Good for you!

        I love this guy’s attitude. If you’re a shiksa, you’re a slut. If you’re a woman you have no right to decide who touches. you. Do you really think his attitude would have magically changed after you got dunked?

        • Michaltastik January 12, 2011, 1:00 PM

          Nope. What pisses me off more is when other women sit there and endorse this, including one that considered herself a feminist and kept asking rabbis at the shul for something more Avi Weiss style (women doing d’var Torahs and such).

          • A. Nuran January 12, 2011, 7:29 PM

            What really pisses me off is the attitude that he can touch you without permission, and the women around him will support him, not you. That entitlement is what lets rapists and molesters get away with their crimes. Not saying he is, just that the culture gives them an advantage.

  • S. Tefilinov January 12, 2011, 6:43 AM

    Rogue from X-Men is shomer negiah, but not tsnius. Jean Grey also has a problem with being touched.

  • Nate January 12, 2011, 11:08 AM

    Get over yourselves. Shiksa means a gentile girl, plain & simple. It is irrelevant how it is perceived or received. Same as “shavrtze”. it means a black person, a negro, whatever. Don’t start a bunch of PC crap.
    In my family we still say shaygetz, mamzer, even nigger. Why not? They call each other that word, so I feel perfectly ok using it myself. Or, we could just use the general all-encompassing term “beheima” to cover gentiles, shvartzas and Muslims.

    • A. Nuran January 12, 2011, 12:38 PM

      I’m not sure if the article is completely accurate, but according to the Wiki:


      The word shiksa is etymologically partly derived from the Hebrew term ???, ??? sheketz, which means “abomination”, “impure,” or “object of loathing”, depending on the translator.[1]
      Several dictionaries define “shiksa” as a disparaging and offensive term applied to a non-Jewish girl or woman.[2]
      The word (written “siksa”, pronounced “shiksa”) in Polish culture is a popular pejorative (but often teasing or affectionate) word for an immature young girl or teenager. It means “pisspants” and is roughly equivalent to the English terms “snot-nosed brat”, “little squirt”, or “kid”.[3] It is a conflation between the Hebrew term and usage of the Polish word “sika?” (“to urinate”).

      • Izzy January 13, 2011, 6:51 AM

        In spite of the derivation of the word, in certain contexts it has taken on the meaning of non-Jewish woman, with no negative connotations. For example when I lived and worked in NY/NJ I would often hear woman refer to themselves as “shiksas.” Did they mean to call themselves loathsome? They were just using a term they understood to mean non-Jewish woman. So I would posit that the word has become an innoccuous term for non-Jewish woman, in spite of it’s origins. I know some people who generically use the term to refer to their non-Jewish domestic help only, also with no negative connotations.

    • ghottistyx January 12, 2011, 3:20 PM

      Are you for real? Or shall we start bringing back the words “Kike”, “Heeb”, and “Big-Nosed Ones” as well?

      Here’s one for you. How about using the word “Yeshiva” as a verb to mean cheating one out of money? That one received prominence in the ’80s when Yeshiva University was involved in a big union bust; those who supported the union angrily said that the staff got “Yeshivahed”, and from what I hear, the term stuck for any unfair union bust when money was involved.

      Since you’re so smart, how many “mamzerim” have you come across? I hardly find that topic funny at all.

      • Mahla January 12, 2011, 3:55 PM

        Yikes Ghottistyx — now I must ask (even though I’m half afraid to hear the answer, LOL!) what exactly “behemia” means. I already tried Google with no success.

        • Nate January 12, 2011, 4:11 PM

          And I told you to take your camel and ride out of here. Why you even bother to comment in a Jewish forum is beyond me. A beheima is a 4 legged animal, or in the case of those I mentioned, a 2 legged one.

          • ghottistyx January 12, 2011, 4:33 PM

            Don’t let her camel kick you in the face too hard on her way out. I should warm you, they spit too.

          • A. Nuran January 12, 2011, 9:33 PM

            Nate, are you a Jew or are you a neo-Nazi who shows up just to make Jews look bad?

        • ghottistyx January 12, 2011, 4:14 PM

          You’ve probably come across the term “Behemoth”. That is actually the plural for Behema.

          It is one of several different terms used in Hebrew to mean “Beast”. This is as opposed to a “Chayyah”, which is a domesticated animal. When one is called a “Behema”, they are generally being referred to as a Wild Animal.

          Here’s a bad one an uncle of mine once told me. There was once a Lubavitcher who named his daughter “Baruch Haba Melech HaMashiach”, for short, BHMH (pronounced “BeHeMaH”). Now he was asking for her to be, eh, wild, now wasn’t he?

          • Nate January 12, 2011, 4:23 PM

            You have it backwards. A beheima is domesticated, like cows, sheep, etc. A chaya is wild, like a lion or tiger or bear, oh my.

            • ghottistyx January 12, 2011, 4:29 PM

              I stand corrected. Thanks.

      • Nate January 12, 2011, 4:09 PM

        I have no idea how many I have come across cuz none of them wear a label announcing there status as a mamzer, which by the way does not mean an illegitimate child in halacha.

        Frankly I dont care what the gentile world calls me. I dont care about their lives or their deaths either. Like this shooting in Arizona with the congresswoman. So what? Were they Jews? No, so why do I care? I don’t. The fact is Jews do know money and how to handle it better than anyone, so if we get over, nu we get over, I’m not concerned about name calling or reputations. The goyim want us dead no matter how pure we are.
        I said it before and I’ll say it again. If I came across a pile of dead negroes I’d stop & take a good long piss on it and continue on my way so I wont be late for davening.

        • Sergeant J January 12, 2011, 4:17 PM

          Not only are you a racist sack of shit, but you don’t read well either. The congresswoman is Jewish, as well as at least one of the dead.

          • Nate January 12, 2011, 4:22 PM

            OK, didnt know that, she wasnt identified as a Jew. Now that I know, I feel bad for her and the other one, but not for the rest. Not at all.
            Giffors isn’t a Jewish name. Is she married to a shaygetz? If so, then I change my mind back again.

            I’ll take it a step further. You’ve seen those old newsreels from the Holocaust I’m sure, showing the bulldozers pushing the corpses of Jews into a mass grav. If I saw another newreel today like that, but it was Palestinians, I’d be cheering and saying Hallel in thanks.

            • DRosenbach January 12, 2011, 4:31 PM

              Don’t feed the trolls!

              • Mahla January 12, 2011, 4:38 PM

                DRosenbach, I concur.

            • Anonymous January 12, 2011, 4:32 PM

              Don’t feed the trolls, including the ones below.

            • Anonymous January 13, 2011, 1:49 AM

              hesy, why do u allow this?

        • ghottistyx January 12, 2011, 4:26 PM

          It just so happens that Rep. Giffords is Jewish, but that’s besides the point. We were all created in God’s image, were we not? I refer you back to the Book of Genesis if you disagree, “Vayivra Elohim et Ha’Adam, b’Tzelem Elohim Bara Oto, Zachar u’N’keyva Bara Otam.” And God created the Man, In the Image of the Lord he Created them, Male and Female he created them.”

          So unless you are suggesting that only the Jews are descended from Adam, all humans were created in God’s image. We were the ones chosen to observe the mitzvoth, but that does not change the fact that all men have Godliness in them. To violate any man, that is to violate God to. Don’t you think?

          • Anonymous January 12, 2011, 4:36 PM

            Please don’t respond to trolls.

          • Nate January 12, 2011, 7:17 PM

            Ok, that being the case, answer me this: All the 7 nations that were in the land of Israel prior to us crossing the Jordan were ALSO created in God’s image, yes? And all the people of Amalek as well, yes? Yet, God ordered us to wipe them out off the face of the earth. Now, do you think that the little innocent babies deserved to die, too? We killed them anyway. Why? Because we were following the orders of our Commander in Chief, without mercy, without question, without a second thought. So, using your logic, we are no better than the Nazis. Let’s see you weasel out of that.
            Nevermind, I’ll do it for you. Sometimes, people have to die. So pick up the M-16, take that peace symbol off of your flak jacket, and destroy the gooks.

            • 0ffended gook January 12, 2011, 7:46 PM

              We aren’t. Someone get Glenn Beck on this….The Hebrews of the Old Testament were a bunch of Nazis!

              • Nate January 13, 2011, 6:58 AM

                Funny, but still leaves the question unanswered.

        • A. Nuran January 12, 2011, 7:30 PM

          “SJT (Single Jewish Troll). Owns own bridge. Seeking billygoat.”

  • Sharia law forever January 12, 2011, 11:45 AM

    No Touching!! its is degrading for the women!

    • Sergeant J January 13, 2011, 7:42 PM

      Actually, according to one Muslim cleric banned in Australia, it’s ok to touch a girl, any way you wish to, if she dares to not be dressed modestly. Said something like, “a woman immodest in front of men is like throwing fresh meat to dog, the dog is supposed to eat it, and has done no wrong in doing so”.. If this cleric was following Sharia, then not only can you touch, you should, and you should punish her for it. That cleric is a sick bastard…

  • Sharia Law Sux Azz January 12, 2011, 11:53 AM

    Well yeah, I can see that. Looking at you guys it’s an easy leap to not wanting the babes touched by you.

  • Schwing January 12, 2011, 1:31 PM

    I wonder how many frum girls/wives have been caught with their fingers in their cookie jars by their fathers/mothers/husbands. Please share.

    • Yankel January 17, 2011, 3:26 AM

      You’re a truly sick perve.
      The only one who I pity more than your wife, is you yourself.

      Avraham Avinu would be proud…

      People like you should stick to non-Jewish blogs.

      • Schwing January 17, 2011, 6:56 PM

        Dude, see a therapist for all that anger. Or whack off a little more often. For more info, see today’s post, lol. I think BY should give classes in self pleasure actually.

  • Yankel January 17, 2011, 8:57 PM

    Sorry, there’s no anger here. Just making an observation, and perhaps a suggestion too.
    Seriously though, how old are you?
    Did you never get past the doody-pishy stage?

  • Disgusted January 21, 2011, 12:23 AM

    This is so pathetic. Just stop bashing each other, yankel u usually have more sence then to answer a loser like that guy. 1 more thing; y can’t heshy ban guys like Nate?

    • Heshy Fried January 21, 2011, 12:33 AM

      I have never banned anyone from the blog and unless they are always the same IP address I can’t ban em – I could get someone to hack em, but I like dissent it makes for good debates.

    • Yankel January 21, 2011, 12:41 AM

      I think Hesh’s philosophy is not to intervene in either direction. He tolerates all kinds of anti-semitic garbage all the time. Not to mention anti-Torah and anti-Frummie without limit. That’s sort of what the site is all about.

      Although some of Nate’s views on things make me uncomfortable, because as a religious Jew, I would like to believe that we have a generally healthy outlook on the world and humanity (ie; how to relate to them), to be completely fair – his racial spewing is not really any different than some angry OTD spewing against Rabbis and the frum community.

      I think the only things which should be censored/banned, are ads, pervs looking to pass their herpes around, and obvious trolls.

  • Jill November 30, 2013, 12:51 PM

    Some girls are shomer and just believe it’s important to dress “modestly” without believing that one has to wear skirts all the time. This doesn’t mean they wear halters, show cleavage or wear tight pants. I’m modern orthodox and although I don’t believe in labels as I think it’s important to always be growing in ones observance, I dress mod orthodox (without showing cleavage or wearing halters or bathing suits on the beach) and I don’t believe in sex before marriage and yes to most people I’m a freak as they don’t understand me…. they don’t understand what it’s like to believe that modesty is important yet not 100% believe that everybody should wear a skirt or adhere to such strict guidelines.

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