This is the third part in a series of anonymous guest posts written by someone who has been in the kiruv field for many years. (Check out the Yeshivish and Modern Orthodox posts as well)As is always with any post including my own, I do not necessarily agree with any of the following, but I love placing opposing opinions on my blog – so if you want to respond to this, by all means send me an email.
Guide to Chabad kiruv:
Well, we can’t talk about Kiruv without talking about Chabad. You’ll see a stronger reaction about Chabad than anyone else. That’s because with Chabad, you either love them or hate them. Or, as I would like to surmise, you can love them AND hate them. That’s because there are many different types of Chabad Houses:
• Campus Chabads
• Obscure foreign country Chabads
• Chabads within Frum communities
• American Chabads in areas without Frum communities.
The Good
Campus Work
Chabad in many ways has filled in the gaps that other segments of the Jewish community didn’t want to fill. First, they went on to campus. Tens and tens of thousands of students have interacted with Chabads on college campuses. They went places no one else was going, and had a huge impact on student’s lives. Just by providing a Jewish environment for these kids helped counteract the other influences on campus. College campuses are hedonistic pleasure domes, replete with any vice one can imagine. Having something Jewish on campus at least kept these kids connected.
Where were the other segments of the Frum community? Nowhere to be found. Recently Yeshivish Kollels have gotten more involved in campus Kiruv, mostly with the “Maimonides Program”, and the Mod Ox world has started serving campuses with large concentrations of students who grew up in religious families (I wrote it that way intentionally), such as UCLA, Maryland, Penn, Columbia, etc. But who’s at SUNY-Albany? The University of Arizona? Berkeley? Austin? Ohio State? It’s Chabad. They were ahead of their time, and have created a network of Chabad Houses for Jewish (and non-Jewish) students across the country.
Obscure Place Chabad
We all love “obscure place Chabad “. Its great knowing that if you’re going to Cancun, Thailand or Venice that there’s a local Chabad to spend Shabbos with, help out with Kosher food, etc. There is literally no one else doing anything like this. Plus they serve as a haven for students or transients who are living in these locales. They also have helped build up communities in far flung places that no one else wanted to go to, like Russia and Germany. Here again, Chabad is the only one doing this, and they were ahead of their time. No one’s fighting them for this type of work, and they happily do it. It has been a tremendous boon for the Jewish community.
The Bad
Chabad in Frum Communities
It starts to get very ugly and political when Chabads enter Frum communities, or at least cities with decent sized Frum communities. In many ways the Frum community has decided to pick and choose when they want Chabad around. The message basically is, “Go out to the campuses and crazy locations, but stay away from our turf.” So there is some hypocrisy in how we want to use Chabad when it suits our purposes. At the same time, Chabad does not make it easy to welcome them.
As much as the public image of Chabad is of the smiling, dancing Rabbi, they are vicious when it comes to turf wars. As much as they will say that they are only in town to work with the unaffiliated, that is not really true. First of all they will ask anyone for money, no matter where they are affiliated. Plus, if Chabad gets to an area first, and that community grows, any newcomers are considered outsiders who need to be removed at once. This has happened all across the country. Plus, Chabad has perfected playing the victim card, and they will always make you look bad. Chabad is like the cute baby velociraptor, it looks so cute and cuddly, but if you get too close, it will rip your face off. Chabad has such a strong public image that responding to Chabad attacks often makes you look worse, plus they’ll play the victim card if you counter-attack. I know this sounds ugly and petty, but that’s what’s going on out there. Yeshivish Kollels despise Chabads, because Chabads almost always view them as threats. A Mod Ox Shul is not a threat, because they attract their own limited constituency. But a Kiruv Kollel who is trying to reach out to unaffiliated Jews (and raise money from them) is a real threat to Chabad, so they fight back with force: smear campaigns, intimidation or even public humiliation.
The Rebbe
For the vast majority of Frum Jews, and many non-Frum Jews, there is a certain cognitive dissonance when talking about Chabad. In order to work with Chabad, and to participate with Chabad, you need to forget about what they really believe. Because the more you think about it, the harder it is to have anything to do with them.
It all comes down to the Rebbe. Now, we all respect and revere our leaders. Every Chassidic movement has their Rebbe who they hold about all others. That’s just a part of Chassidus, and Litvish Yeshivas do the same thing. But this is very different. I once heard a bit from the comedienne Sarah Silverman, who was wondering how she’d explain to her future kids the differences between her faith and that of then boyfriend Jimmy Kimmel (Frumsatire.net does not in any way endorse intermarriage). She decided she would tell them, “Your mother is one of the Chosen People, and Daddy believes that Jesus is magic.”
That’s Chabad: “The Rebbe is magic.” The Rebbe watches over you. You can ask the Rebbe a question and then open a book of His Sichos and He’ll show you the answer. The picture of the Rebbe is watching over and protecting us. We’ll put letters by the Rebbe’s grave and He’ll read it and respond. How? Because the Rebbe is magic! Yes, I compared their relationship to the Rebbe to Jesus, because the shoe fits. The Rebbi has turned into “Rebbe Jesus”, and its only getting weirder and weirder. The more you learn about what they truly believe, and the closer inside you look, the less you want to do with Chabad. It’s just all too weird.
Be clear about one thing: All Chabadniks believe the Rebbe is magic. They HAVE to believe it. Chassidism is based on having a Rebbe as a leader and guide. Rebbes always die, so why has the Lubavitcher Rebbe not been succeeded by a new Rebbe? I’ve asked Chabadniks this question, and they say, “When you have a Rebbe this perfect, this special, how could anyone succeed them?” Why is their Rebbe more special than any other? Why was he more special than the previous Lubavicher Rebbes who were replaced? I have no doubt that he was an incredible Talmud Chcaham and Tzaddik, but what separates him from the Gerer Rebbe or the Belzer Rebbe? Or, for that matter, the previous Lubavitch Rebbes? It must be because he’s magic.
The longer they go without a Rebbe with a pulse, the crazier it’s going to get. They need to constantly justify why they exist as a movement but don’t have a Rebbe with a warm body. It can only be because the Rebbe is magic. People focus a lot on if a particular Chabbadnik thinks the Rebbe is Mashiach, and I say every Chabbadnik is guilty until proven innocent, but at the very least, they all believe the Rebbe is magic. They have to, otherwise they are a movement whose leader died and will never be replaced-that is not a movement anyone would want to be a part of. That’s not a movement their children can get excited about. They need the Rebbi to be magic, and the need will only grow over time.
(As an aside, why don’t Chabad kids go off-the-Derech en masse? Wouldn’t any thinking person start running for the hills? Are they that brainwashed? Does human nature make it that difficult to break from our communities? Is this actually happening but I’m not aware? I would think it would be like a kids finding out that Santa Claus isn’t real, except that your entire life philosophy was based on Santa Claus. Wouldn’t you be resentful?)
Notes from Heshy: I know a ton of chabad kids who are off the derech, but unlike other off the derech kids, many of them choose to remain within the community, heck in Crown Heights there’s an off the derech apartment building and many off the derech chabadnicks still identify as chabadnicks. Off the derech chabad kids also have an advantage, they speak and read english, many of them have high school diplomas and they understand the real world because of their sects openness to it so many of them make it financially, unlike real chassidim who don’t speak or read English and have trouble with living outside of Williamsburg, KJ or New Square.
Chabad has become its own cult-like sect. Who do they fit in with? Where do they belong? It’s inaccurate to say they are Chassidic, because other Chassidic groups have disowned them, and again, they don’t have a Rebbi who can fog up a mirror. They have not been embraced by, or embraced, any other segment of Judaism. The Yeshivish community wants nothing to do with them. They are on their own, and they prefer it that way. They don’t want people getting too close, because they know if people see behind the curtain, they’ll realize that the man pulling the strings believes the Rebbi is magic.
So Chabad plays a cute little game. They now have a public face that deemphasizes the Rebbi. They’ve gotten plenty of pr savvy, and they know that the Rebbi stuff is not good for their public image. It’s just not good for business; the Rebbi doesn’t sell.It reminds me of scientology. They work hard on their public image and reveal their true beliefs only to their “insiders”.
Chabad’s Skills
1. Fundraising
Chabad rocks at fundraising. They are relentless. Shuls and Kollels often struggle with fundraising because it can be awkward and uncomfortable, but Chabad seems undeterred. They are not scared to bring up money, and to mention it over and over again. Plus, Chabad houses have complete control over their centers, so they really are or Kollel Director, who is fundraising for an organization, so the stakes are not as high. Plus, they are on rich people like white on rice. They’re first priority is fundraising.
2. Stability
Wherever Chabad goes, they go for life. Especially in smaller Frum communities, where most Kollel members and Shul Rabbis have limited shelf life, they stay long term and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make that happen. Now there is a downside to this. Bad Chabadniks don’t get replaced. Not every Chabadnik is cut out for this line of work, and there is not much of a system to replace the guys who are not effective.
3. Public Relations
Chabad has become the master of pr. They’ve created a true brand that for the most part is positive. They’ve developed a website template that makes the smallest of Chabad Houses look like a professionally run institution. They buddy up to celebrities and politicians, do public Menorah lightings, and generally will do ANYTHING if it attracts attention, even losing some dignity in the process. The way they latched on to Mattitsyahu and tried to exploit his celebrity was sickening to watch, but that was an offshoot of the Chabad pr machine.
4. Welcoming and Open Minded
Chabad does an excellent job of being welcoming and open-minded, where people don’t feel judged when they walk in the door. This also leads to Chabad’s reputation of attracting oddballs and losers, which can push away actual normal people.
How Effective is Chabad?
Chabad is much more effective at reaching out to Jewish who are poorly educated and/or have traditional mindsets. Russians, South Americans, Secular Israelis: Chabad has a chance to really work with them. But Americans? Very little success. Don’t get me wrong, they’ve impacted tons of American Jews. But how many actually become Chabad? For the huge numbers of Shluchim out there, a very small number. Chabad is much more emotional and experiential, but not nearly intellectual enough for the average American.
So there you have it. Chabad: The good, the bad, and the Rebbi. Maybe I’ll write some future posts if the mood strikes.
{ 91 comments… read them below or add one }
you really dont understand chabad.
Agreed.
As with Modern Orthodoxy, the author tries to provide an authoritative gloss of a topic he has very little experience in, by expressing opinions based on yeshivish hearsay and gossip.
This isn’t to say he doesn’t have some interesting points. However, he should stick with the few things he has a good grasp of and just not discuss the rest. Instead, he comes off as ignorant and opinionated, (which, unfortunately, seems to be de facto among Yeshiva bochurim today.
Actually, he is spot on.
I always thought it was Matisyahu who used chabad. They were his gimmick that got him through the door. If anything it was benefit was mutual. He has tremendous talent but Chabad helped him too.
Good post most of it is true, but every sect of orthodoxy has its inner politics.
I went to BT yeshiva with Matisyahu. He didn’t use Chabad; he was involved with Chabad, like many BT’s, because he formed a close relationship with his shaliach, and wanted to connect with his Jewish roots. He wasn’t anywhere near being famous when he started off in yeshiva, and it’s not correct to think Chabad was somehow a “stepping stone.” Once his popularity started picking up, it became evident that his Chassidic appearance, shockingly, was actually a bit of a selling point for him as well. That occurred after the fact, however.
I have davened at a Chabad shul for years and have had nothing but positive experiences. For the most part, Chabad does good work…and more to the point, the people I have met seem sincerely welcoming, concerned and caring for everyone that comes to them, so I think it is like anything else…you sort have to take the good with the bad (whatever that may be).
For a piece on Kiruv, this article is a short praise of chabad’s kiruv skill which hides with a long ad-hominem attack about the rebbe thrown in. The writer obviously thinks yeshivish kiruv kollels should get the money that Chabad raises, even though he admits they are less effective, and wontonly criticizes them for out-competing the community that he supports.
I haven’t met any shluchim who think that the rebbe is the moshiach. In fact, most of them that I know are staunchly opposed to the Yechi movement.
You mean you haven’t met any shluchim who have TOLD you that the Rebbe is Moshiach, because they mostly all believe he could be (and is likely) Moshiach. Sure, they’re staunchly opposed to the Yechi movement because they don’t feel the Rebbe being Moshiach is something to be publicized.
You’ll find shluchim who’ll tell you he might be Moshiach, or more likely they’ll plead ignorance and tell you they don’t know who moshiach is, but rare is the Lubavitcher who will tell you the Rebbe is NOT and CANNOT be moshiach.
while the messianism is certainly a strong sentiment, in my experience with quite a few campus chabads, it’s always couched in terms of “when moshiach comes….” indicating that he has not come yet.
Yeah, I know the style of avoiding things.
What that really means is: “Moshiach is already here. But when he reveals himself fully, then…”
I started giving the local Lubavitcher shul a wider berth when its name was changed to “Bes Menachem” and it included a sign saying “Our Rabbi and King forever”. When I asked point blank I was told that his perfect record of accurate prophecies meant he could be the Messiah. And they kept saying that he was at least the potential Messiah. And one guy said nobody actually saw a body in the casket when he was – and I quote – “supposedly buried”.
It isn’t absolute proof. But the deniability is pretty ragged.
Wow when I started reading I was quite impressed but sadly lost that along the way! Iam chabad n have a daughter helping a schliach out in oh! The schluchim many of them don’t have wat we take for granted u can’t go get pizza ,icecream etc and for my daughter growing up in bklyn all her life was/is a big adjustment and that’s in the usa look@ the holtzbergs from mumbai we only heard After there tragic deaths how and wat they did to survive! Amazing and yes lubavitch was the first in kiruv and now many have copied , I was amazed I was @ shonfield square a senior home in london last week some girls from belz came to sing on shabbos to the elderly I was so suprised to hear them sing we want moshiach now! A few years back it would have never been slowly the whole moshiach concept is funneling into all sects I’m total against the idea that the rebbe is alive or moshiach but we should go by he’s teachings n concept he taught us when he was alive. every sect n communities will have some otd and were r surely not spared but yes outta the chassidic sects lubav is def more openminded then others and do live more with times and I have heard from many chassidish ppl how they wish #1 were chabad and #2 that there sect was more to the times we live in and a openminded society ! I have learnt ppl wearing the full lavush doesn’t mean much and only worn cuz they have to not want to and the peer presure causes strong resentment! That’s my 2 cents!
From you Comment “As an aside, why don’t Chabad kids go off-the-Derech en masse?” I get the impression that you might agree that you have seen allot of Chabad but you dont understand them and therefore you propose the magic theory but then question the validity of the statement.
So here I will propose that if you were to replace the “Magic” with “Moshe Rabeinu” then you would be correct and it would help with understanding Chabad a little better.
Regarding Fundraising I can safely say that in 90% of the Rebbe’s talks he mentions how great Tzedakah is to give it at every chance you get whether before Shachris before you say Thillim before every Shiur before Mincha before an Ain Yakkov Shiur and however much you give Hashem will pay you back double and more as well as the person you convinced you to so this great Mitzvah In Gemorah it explains how to salt Money meaning how to make it last forever is be giving tzedakah also from the 10 Major Mitzvah Campaigns that the Rebbe Started Tzedakah is one of them also 20% of the Tanya speaks about the importance of giving Tzedakah and giving even more then %20 of your income.
“How Effective is Chabad? ….. Chabad is much more emotional and experiential, but not nearly intellectual enough for the average American.” You are very wrong the main focus of Chabad is Education any big chabad House will have many classes every week (you can look for yourself on their websites) that is the only way that they thrive you cant keep people coming back just on excitement you need classes Chabad is also for the frum and other Chassidim I am from a Chabad on Long Island We have many classes every week with many people coming to them and they are mostly intellectual and American therefore as a necessity a lot of preparation goes in to each class.
also, his complaint was that the ppl that chabad reaches out to don’t become lubavitcher; but at my college, where I was in jewish fraternity, I saw a lot of ppl go from secular/conservative to something much more like MO because of their great experiences with campus chabad, even though there was never a chance in the world that they would put on a black hat or grow a beard.
Didn’t read all the comments but I’m Chabad. More than half of us are Baal Teshuvas or have Baal Teshuva parents.
uhhh chabad chasidus is not emotional and neither is chabad
even the name chabad comes from the *intellectual* faculties
“Cute baby velociraptor”. Gotta love that!
as for a chassidus not being able to exist without a living rebbe… ever hear of breslov?
Was waiting for someone to make this point…
I’ve met ONE normal Bresslover guy
That’s like me saying “I’ve met ONE normal black guy”
I’m from Montana.
This article was so beautifully written, thank you.
I must point out however, that there were a few factual mistakes.
As to your assumption that they are not that effective in America, they do decently, although not great.
Your assumption that many should be picking up on the lie and rejecting Chabad – that’s just not the way humans work. Especially Jews, especially those raised on a strict diet of “magic” as you articulated so nicely.
The amount who become cynical are the same as in the Yeshivish communities. Maybe slightly more due to all the exposure.
And lastly, for those who are above average intellectuals, there is no shortage of material in the Chabad libraries. Many great minds swear by Chabad Torah. On the contrary, the more one reads and learns their sichos and seforim (especially those of the Rebbe, the Rayatz, and the Rashab) the more believable the whole thing becomes.
However, your keen perception of who they are as a group, and how to describe the Chassidus (kiruv-wise at least), was mostly right on the mark, and very enjoyable to read.
I was surprised about how accurate most of this article is, I was expecting another rant.
However, I must point out that he has one major mistake: Not ALL Chabadniks believe the Rebbe is magic, and no one HAS to believe anything of the sort.
I’ve lived in a major Lubavitch community for 30 years, and while it’s true that most people think that way and many are even more extreme, I know a few people that take all the overdone BS with a grain of salt, myself included.
Nor do I believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach, I stopped believing when he passed away in accordance with halacha / mesora.
Not all do, but there’s certainly strong pressure to entertain the possibility if not actually shout your belief from the rooftops.
I gotta say, I was fairly into the first two segments from this series…but this is SO way off the mark. There’s a bunch of stuff in here that is simply incorrect. Not a matter of differing opinion, rather factually false. I’m too lazy to cite examples, so flame away at me for not backing up my own statements. Also, this reeked as an excuse just to attack Chabad. I myself am no fan, but in what seemed to be the spirit of this series, the author seemed to focus a heck of a lot more on critiquing Chabad and their “magic” rather than focusing on the elements of their kiruv work. Cheers.
this guy by deductive reasoning has to be involved in a yeshivish kiruv movement… if you read all three, you find out some things.
yeshivish went first, he went with the thing he knew about the most.
the Modox and the CHaBaD article were both big bash fest wiht some kiruv info sprinkled in.
he uses gross stereotypes in both.
his yeshivish article has superficial criticism nothing so strong or directed as the other two. kind of like when you ask a potential employee what their biggest weekness is. they say, I am too independent, or I get get bored when not challenged… they never say Im lazy or I steal supplies from work.
Im not Chabad but I want to point out a definate fallacy- Chabad is all about intectuallism. that is the entire basis of their Chassidus. Read the Tanya dude…
also how the heck do you think Matisyahu gets a minyan or eats glatt kosher or where do you think he stays on shabbos in obscure towns and cities. CHABAD!!! he may have left Chabad but he still is very connected with them. shmulley Boteach may have left but he still works with Chabad too.
I say a dank Hashem for the Rebbe and Chabad, they as a group do more good for orthodox Judaism than anyone else and yet they get constantly picked on, mocked, and in some cases rejected…
politics, feuds, etc are things within the human condition not just a chabad problem. look at how the kosher industry is ran. the OU has their share of dirty politics too.
I think I would have a hard time finding a resident of Lakewood that knows less about Chabad than you. It’s unbelievable how many inaccuracies were just written. If I didn’t know better I would think this piece is 100% satire. But I believe that you actually believe the absolute nonsense you just wrote.
Very rarely does a guest poster do satire and if it is satire, there is usually a tag that says it is.
Don’t you know? Only Hesh can write satire without letting anyone know he’s making it up.
Of course Chabad Torah is intellectual. Nobody is disputing that. The question is if most of the people doing mitzvos because of Chabad are intellectually driven. Many just put on Tefillin and go on with life. I think that the Rebbe was comfortable with that, assuming that one Mitzvah would lead to another (as cited in chazal).
I think that the author is speaking from painful experience. He wants to love Chabad for all of the great stuff that they do but can’t deal with people referring to the rebbe “shlita” and enforcing monopolies by making other people look bad and noninclusive.
“Rebbe Shlita”
I don’t care if it hails or sleets, yeah,
Long as I got the Rebbe, shlita,
Pasted on the dashboard of my car.
Helping me through all my struggles
Givin’ me someone to cuddle,
Cause God Himself just always seems so far.
Rebbe Shlita, Rebbe Shlita
Riding on the dashboard of my car.
Helping me through all my struggles
Givin’ me someone to cuddle,
Cause God Almighty always seems so far.
Got him way back in Camp Gan Izzy,
When I learned by heart real easy
Twelve pesukim they taught me to say.
I used to put my faith in God
‘Til they told me that I was wrong.
‘The Rebbe watches over you night and day!’
I don’t care if the world is scary
Or if Moshiach, he will tary.
The Rebbe knows ’bout all I’m going through.
He’ll be back before you know it,
To save our People and rebuild it,
Redeeming us just like he said he’d do.
Rebbe Shlita, Rebbe Shlita
Riding on the dashboard of my car.
Helping me through all my struggles
Givin’ me someone to cuddle,
Cause God Almighty always seems so far.
Wearin’ Rabbenu Tam tefillin,
Here I sit. I’m just chillin’
Don’t even have to worry ’bout the wheel.
No need to look in my rear-view mirror.
I’ve got all I need right here.
The Rebbe, shlita saves ‘n he will heal.
For safety you can’t top the Rebbe’s Torah,
Which explains the huge menorah
Up there on the rooftop of my car.
I know I have done my utmost
With my Chabad mezuzah on the doorpost.
Please touch it as you get into the car.
Rebbe Shlita, Rebbe Shlita
Riding on the dashboard of my car.
Helping me through all my struggles
Givin’ me someone to cuddle,
Cause God Almighty always seems so far.
Who needs reason when you’ve got Chassidis?
Life’s much easier when you just accept this,
The Rebbe Shlita answers every prayer.
He don’t care ’bout my heresy
He’s only made of plastic, see,
Vinyl-coated paper, won’t fade or tear.
I can say whatever I want ’bout him,
Long as its more glory for him.
Everybody needs himself a guru.
Don’t believe my story’s true?
Just listen, wait until I’m through,
What I spin will surely soon convert you.
Rebbe Shlita, Rebbe Shlita
Riding on the dashboard of my car.
Helping me through all my struggles
Givin’ me someone to cuddle,
Cause God Almighty always seems so far.
There’s stories of him pullin’ children from the river,
Savin’ babies in the bunker as a candy giver.
Don’t get on that airplane, it’s gonna blow.
He knows everything under the sun,
He’ll protect and save you, that son of a gun.
Hearin’ ’bout his miracles keeps me from woe.
Every time I hear of him,
I yearn to follow his every whim.
The Rebbe’s loyal soldier I am, and how
I yearn for the day when I’ll see him again.
Can’t be long now, so I imagine.
B’Karov Mamosh, We Want Moshiach Now!
Rebbe Shlita, Rebbe Shlita
Riding on the dashboard of my car.
Helping me through all my struggles
Givin’ me someone to cuddle,
Cause God Almighty always seems so far…
Rebbe Shlita, Rebbe Shlita
Riding on the dashboard of my car.
Helping me through all my struggles
Givin’ me someone to cuddle,
Cause God Himself just always seems so far…
What is this supposed to be sung to?
Plastic Jesus by Ed Rush and George Cromarty
“I don’t care if it rains or freezes
Long as I’ve got my plastic Jesus
Sitting on the dashboard of my car.”
WOW!! is all I can say. The blatent lies of this article, or just a strong lack of information. For me to dispute everything you say will take to much writing effort; but lets start with your claim that Chabad kids don’t leave the Derech. This statement just shows me and everyone else that know Chabad people that you don’t have the slightest clue about Chabad, they go off more then a lot of other orthodox sects.
You allege that most American people do not connect with Chabad. Let me ask you something, did you ever step foot into a chabad community? some communities have more BT families then ffb, so there again, we see you don’t know anything about the sect that you so much hate. If you go to any other community and ask the kids about their religion and why do they believe, they will give you a blank stare. They live for the cholent, and to make their parents proud. The litvish community learns for hours a day without any meaning; and to prove this I can say that I was in many countries in my life, and the minute that a litvak is not around his community they eat treif, hook up with escorts, and a lot more. Please don’t argue with me on this i’ve seen it countless times. Chabad on the other hand are intulectually religious;
even when they leave the fold they almost always feel guilty. If a chabad guy stops him on the street to put on teffilin, they will almost always comply, and even if not, they will almost always be interested in a chassidishe farbrangen. I didn’t even scratch the surface of your lies, but as I said I don’t have the patience to write anymore, but I guess this is more for a face to face discussion.
muwaaah haaa haaa haaa!!! just wait until we meet face to face!!
You have not denied the basic accusation- that all Chabadniks believe the rebbe is Moshiach. I dare you to tell me that the rebbe is NOT moshiach! Can you explain how R. Cunin can say “The rebbe runs the world” (Google that if you don’t know what I am talking about)? Can you explain how R. Cunin can bring the cast of a prust TV show to publicly endorse Chabad at the nationally televised Telethon? Does the end really justify the means? I think not!
…a messianic death cult. It will take someone of the stature of a R. Yaakov Emden (credited with destroying Sabbateanism) to finally deal with it.
Well, he’s not coming back in our generation. The best we had tried.
I’m hoping it will die down on it’s own eventually.
We got David Berger. But I doubt that he touts himself as a R’ Yaakov Emden.
Sorry to double-post, but how about what R’ Sa’adya Ga’on was to the Kara’im? Or even the RaMBaM?
And lest anyone think that the Kara’im contributed nothing good, if not for them, we would not have an intact Sefer Torah. The RaMBaM searched far and wide until he finally found one that was approved by the Ben Asher family, and he declared that this Torah was perfect. The Ben Ashers, it is known, were a family of Kara’im (Sa’adya even castigated them for being Kara’im). But the patriarch of this family is considered the Father of Modern Hebrew Grammar (see “The Aleppo Codex”).
Oh, and one more thing. Whenever someone attacks chabad you can feel the jelousy. Let me tell you a quick story. I was once speaking to this self proclaimed “chabad expert” who was going on and on about how chabad is a colt, and saying other such nonesense. Anyway, we were sitting around a lot of other litvaks who were listining in, and I started debating him, HE DID NOT COME UP WITH ONE FACTUAL POINT IN THE ENTIRE 3 HOURS, and even the litvaks agreed. Guess what he started doing, he started attacking me, calling me a ben niddah, and other such names.
You debated a guy for 3 hours you must have a lot of free time. Chabad is better at getting people to become modern orthodox or yeshivish than chabad. Check out half the people in Ohr Someach I am sure half of them came from chabad houses.
after you debated the 19 theologians for 8 hours straight and they weren’t able to bring a single factual point and crowned you sultan of the chabad debate….mendy this is a ridiculous point. I can blab on here that i ran circles around a stadium full of holocaust deniers, or that i beat up three african elephants. or whatever. he said, she said. my dad can beat up your dad. by the way, on a serious note, did the debate you are referring to occur in jerusalem? shaarei chesed area?
Funny how people throw around term Litvak to describe misnagdim. You do realize that the Alter Rebbe was from Lithunia, which technically means that he was a Litvak as well.
Having grown up in Lubavitch and attended Lubavitch Yeshivas for most of my life, I’m not surprised by the responses to this article. Anything true that the author wrote are automatically passed off as lies, an any inaccuracies in his post are cited as examples. Then he is branded a “hater” or “snag”.
Classic Ahavas Yisroel practiced by people that have the Chutzpa to call themselves Chassidim.
Have the balls to look at what’s wrong with the current state of the movement, and how they rest of the frum world has alienated us more than ever before, largely thanks to the messianic yechi cult and it’s supporters. If more people at the top had the beitzim to shout out against yechi as loud as the yechis do, we wouldn’t be in this mess today.
Phil, you do realize that most of the comments are coming from the same IP addresses, as I knew they would. Also that most of the comments are written in the same “I really liked the first two paragraphs and then you descended into a bash fest of lies”
I was going to keep my mouth shut, but what he wrote happens to be pretty spot on, but it’s very hard for chabadnicks to take criticism, I told the author of the post that I can guaruntee that no intellectual discussion will come out of it, because the entire comments section will be filled with chabadnicks that disagree – I have met some chabadnicks that are likely to agree with some of this. Heck I don’t agree with all of it and I happen to know way more about chabad than this guy does – wayyyy more.
Like the small towns, torn apart by the chabad house that refuses to make a minyan with the established shul in town (Santa Fe, Sacramento, Salt Lake City to name a few) or chabads that force towns to build mikvos to their standards and then say screw it we’re going to build our own after you did all the repairs. They have issues, but every group has issues – chabad is focused so much more upon because of the fact that most Jews have no exposure to orthodox Jews other than chabad (thank God – if Jews had exposure only to Satmars – who knows how many anti-semites we would have)
I love chabad and think that loads of folks are jealous, I would be if I were someone like wolfson wh pumped loads of dollars into college kiruv operations that need to produce numbers of kids who went to Israel (aish) Chabad are the kings of kiruv and will always be, but for anyone who has had close contact especially a Rabbi in the field it’s always a love and hate relationship.
I am friends with many folks who do believe the Rebbe is moshiach, we joke about it, I really couldn’t care less – big deal, just like people who believe Jesus is moshiach – when moshiach comes, if he actually comes, then we will see – it may be a Maharat from Avi Weiss school for all we know.
So yeh I knew from the start that the comment section would be 95% anonymous comments from chabadnicks who feel the need to defend themselves and call the author an idiot.
i thought i was the only obnoxious person posting different comments from the same ip address
Nope and it always happens when people get defensive
yet another reason why i love your blog
Hesh,
I didn’t realize people take this blog seriously enough to post under different aliases. Of course, they could just be bipolar
I like Chabad. My only problem with the movement, and many of it’s Chassidim, is that they think they’re the only legitimate form of Judaism.
All Jewish groups (for the most part) think they have the best way of doing things. But they tolerate other groups. Not Chabad. They isolate themselves, look down on everyone else, and then say everyone else “has sinah”, or “is jealous”. My *ss. Who pulled out of Agudas Yisroel? Only Chabad.
This elitism is also why they don’t play well others in the kiruv game as well. It’s also why when the Yechinicks took hold of Lubavitch, the mainstream Rabbonim immediately condemned them: because they know they can’t talk to them.
Chabad likes to fool themselves into thinking they’re the victim, but the evidence points in another direction.
You hit the nail on the head my friend.
Even Ger (who are considered pretty obnoxiously elitist) recognize other groups as legitimate.
But I think you’re mistaken in your assumption that they did it to themselves. I think it was an inevitable reaction to a number of things which happened throughout chabad history. Namely the “great-late-Rebbe”.
“This elitism is also why they don’t play well others in the kiruv game as well.”
Brother, you don’t know the half of it. Get an honest Lubavitcher, and ask him what’s better: That a Jew remains secular until 18 and then goes to Aish or Ohr Someach and becomes mainstream frum, or stays non-religious until 35 and then becomes a chabadsker? I was so shocked to hear the answer.
With this kind of mindset, it’s not hard to see why they consider every Jew who mainstream kiruv gets to first – an utter tragedy which must be prevented.
“It’s also why when the Yechinicks took hold of Lubavitch, the mainstream Rabbonim immediately condemned them: because they know they can’t talk to them.”
This I didn’t get. Which Rabbis?
“This I didn’t get. Which Rabbis?”
Originally Rav Shach, but afterwards many other Chareidi Rabbis, including relative “independents” like R’ Weinberg of Ner Yisroel.
I don’t believe it was just the “great-late-Rebbe” that caused the problem, as is assumed by many. The schism is the only lasting (to my knowledge) remnant of the original chassidim-misnagdim controversy. The rest of the chassidic world was in constant contact with the misnagdish community because of their proximity. After years of fighting, a few leaders began to get along and eventually, chassidim and chassidus in general was seen as a valid form of Judaism.
Chabad history is quite different. Although in the early stages, chabad tried to make peace, (the most famous story is probably with the Alter Rebbe who tried to engage in dialogue with the Vilna Gaon but was denied an audience), they didn’t have to deal with day-to-day problems of chassidim-misnagdim fighting because they moved to Lubavitch in Russia. Their chassidus has therefore always been self-contained and self-sufficient. (This isn’t to say that there were never alliances. The Tzemach tzedek is a notable exception in this regard. Having been forced to work with Lithuanian Rabbonim to combat Haskallah, he befriended some and lowered the hostility between the camps. Nevertheless, Lubavitch for the most part did everything on their own.)
When they got to America, there was some initial collaboration, but old habits die hard and Lubavitch went back to working alone.
belz also left agudah
You mean Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD)? Bipolar means Manic-Depressive, and I don’t see how that would apply here.
Interesting note about Bipolar: according to a few studies I’ve read, Shabbetai Tzvi was probably Bipolar. His story is so well documented, that under a modern lens it is veritable.
Ghotti,
MPD would be correct.
I figure I’ll just wait around until Moshiach arrives. Then we can answer all the argument with a few simple questions…
1) So, you ever been here before?
2) Should I break out the champagne?
3) Need a lift home? What’s your address?
That should tell us if it’s Jesus, the Mahdi or the Rebbe
Yeah, my wife told me a Chabad woman on Imamother was busted arguing with herself about chabad under two sns.
Is it a chabad thing? Or is it a hypersensitivity thing?
Phil, never thought I’d see this day come, but I actually fully agree with something you’ve posted! Ahavat Yisra’el Rulez!
Ghotti,
I’m all for Ahavas Yisrael, especially when it involves women
Hear Hear
What a load of drivel.
To (aka phil),
First of all, I wrote the word “Litvak” specifcally in order not to write a condesending term, like “snag” or “misnaged”. I thing the term Litvak is a lot more respectfull. Second of all, I will be the first person to say we have a lot of issues in chabad, and I can speak about that for hours to. However, my point is, don’t be jealous of chabad and speak lies and show hate based on jealousy. (the fact that he was involved with non-chabad kiruv for years is another reason for his hatred).
Mendy,
I think they prefer to be called yeshivish. Actually read story about a talmid of one of the leading “misnagdim” telling his rebbi about the Alter Rebbe coming to town, he referred to him as “The Litvak”. His rebbi freaked out, told him to beg the Alter Rebbe for fogivness, and whole slew of terrible things then happened to this individual until the day of his death.
I don’t think the author is jealous of Chabad or hates Chabad. He’s calling the shots as he sees them, and he’s obviously got a different tint on his glasses than most Lubabs do.
In his first post, he seemed to bash the kollel guys pretty bad as well, which leads me to think he may be affiliated to M.O / NCSY type kiruv work.
As for the whole kiruv war, I have never seen anything so disgusting coming from people that are supposed to be out on the “front lines”.
I lived in Dallas for a while, back when the whole M.O vs Kollel war started, as well the the Kollel vs. Chabad thing. Each side had their story, but in my view as a frum person that wasn’t affected, each side was just as guilty as the next. 10-12 years later, and nothing’s changed. Hesh lived their for a while as well, I’m sure he can fill you in on the gory details.
People living in big Lubavitch communities aren’t exposed to this kind of thing at all, and are totally oblivious of them. I never would have believed the things that happened until I saw them with my own eyes.
Phil, your points are refreshing. Well articulated; well done. To all the English nerds out there–ss that an appropriate usage of a semi-colon?
It’s funny because in Dallas you see it only if you go to all the shuls and tell people you do. I went to whatever shul I felt like and people in Dallas are very loyal, if you work in one of the day schools you cannot attend another shul other then the one they tell you to, people looked at me like I was nuts when I said I went to chabad in the week, the yeshivish shul on Friday and the modern shul on shabbos day.
You see more of these fights between chabad and established communities in smaller towns.
As I’ve seen it, the local fights which take place outside of North America (and excluding Israel) are even more vicious than the small town turf wars in the US.
All I can say, is that from my experience in small communities, whenever I go to a Chabad minion with any degree of regularity, some yeshivish perons/occasionally modern orthodox person will make some totally bullshit, snarky comment, about my davening at a Lubavitch shul. Jewish politics cuts both way, big time. Also, many of the problems that plague large Lubavitch communities can be found in run of the mill black hat/chareidi communities. (Not to say that the MO are free from guilt either–the greatest percentage of slackerdox/apikorsidox come from them, but that’s another story).
Well I’m a self depracating snag so I make a comment making fun of Snags when I’m hangin with chabad. Yeshivish people are way more to make fun of to chabad than visa versa
tu dat. i agree with the article
Author,
Have you even met a shliach before?
Spot on, yasherkoiach…
I think Chabad today can fairly be called the Mormons of the Jews.
They both believe crazy things, and they both claim themselves as the authentic version of their original religion.
And what coincidence, they’re both into kiruv.
Yankel,
If only Chabad were into multiple wives… No more shidduch crisis, no more tuition crisis, no more sholom bayis crisis and lot’s of baby making sessions. We’d practically be living in the messianic era.
Sorry to be asinine here, but it is conceivable to call Tanya “The Jewish Book of Mormon”. There are some Chabadniks out there who tout the Tanya as being tantamount to the Torah. This, they say, is why R’ Moshe Soloveichik pulled his son (the later to be JB Soloveichik, “The Rav” to the YU community) out of the local Lubavitch Cheder.
The story goes that R’ Moshe was given the job of Kehillah Rav to a Lubavitcher community (the circumstances behind this have never been explained to me; only that the position was open, and R’ Moshe took it). So JB was the oldest son of R’ Moshe, and he was of age to attend the local Cheder. R’ Moshe instructed the teacher that he wants his son to learn Chumash like a normal Litvish child, and not Tanya like a typical Lubavitch child. So the teacher would have one student stand “lookout” by the window; he’d teach Tanya, but whenever R’ Moshe was coming, he’d bust out a Chumash and pretend to be teaching it to the kids. So of course, R’ Moshe started asking his son “what did you learn in Cheder today?” and the son would start repeating back lessons from Tanya, but nothing from the Chumash. So once R’ Moshe caught on, he pulled his son out of the Cheder. From then on, all 3 of his kids were completely home schooled (The Rav, Shmuel, and Rav Aharon).
thats BS they dont even teach tanya untill at least the age of 13 and even then it wouldnt be more one third Tanya/Chasiddus and two thirds gemrah/shluchan uruch etc and usually in the beginining it is maybe an hour a day and it is slowly increasd so that by the time you can learn on your own you are doing one third this is based of the schedule of the Lubavitch Yeshivas from before the war
“they dont even teach tanya untill at least the age of 13 ”
That’s interesting. The Rayatz writes an entire explanation on the first chapter, which as he relates, the Rashab told him the first time they learned Tanya – at age 5 I believe it was.
“Ok, back then it was different”
There’s a total of 23 years between the years each of them were born in.
The Bar Mitzvah age boys are doing ‘tanya bal peh’ my friend.
I’ve had my share of Rabbis (raised in the 50s and 60s) attesting to the Tanya Ba’al Peh thing.
Learning Tanyah by heart definitly but they dont study it ask kid who learnt tanyah baal peh if they know what it is talking about they dont know they are only learning it so that when they walk in the street they can chazar tanyah or mishnayis ball peh
I dont think this was well written. I take some issue with the term “obscure foreign countries” as well. There is a world outside of the USA besides Israel and that world is filled with Jews going about their business in their local communities which may or may not include a Chabad house.
What the author does not get is that the shluchim are not out there to try to get secular Jews to become black hatters. Sure, it would be nice if more people became full fledged BTs, but the bottom line is that the purpose of the day schools and shiurim etc is to educate people, and maybe they’ll start keeping more kosher, maybe THM, a little here and a little there, maybe the awareness will save them from intermarriage in the long run, etc.
Going on shlichus thinking everyone you meet will ‘convert’ is setting yourself up for failure. I think full fledged BT-ness is more common in Israeli chabad for various reason pertaining to the local mentality.
That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of the enterprise of shlichus. The bottom line was and must remain, if it is to be true to the Rebbe’s instructions, to bring more people to following shulchan oruch.
The vehicle for this may be individual mitzvos and slowly bringing Jews closer to their father in heaven. But that is by no means the absolute goal.
The Shulchan Aruch as written by R’ Yosef Karo, or the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, as written by The Alter Rebbe?
The second is an update to the first. But if someone decides that they will live their life according to the mishneh brerurah I think we will still say mission accomplished.
Of course it’s not the absolute goal, but realistically, and I say this as someone whose parents have been out there for over 30 years, it is not a failure either.
This kind of rhetoric is so typical of frum people who are on the outside of Chabad and do not understand Chabad. Like so many other others who perpetuate lashon hara about Chabad they being their ‘discourse’ sweet as desert wine by trying to persuade the listener/reader that they are not totally ‘anti-Chabad’ etc. Most likely they can’t face the fact that they are lashon hara speakers as it would disappoint the Chaffetz Chaim. They also do this to disarm the listener of their mishagos.
When I started on my path I encountered nothing but vicicious and hatred toward chabad from my non-chabad rabbis, but the chabad rabbis I knew never spoke lashon hara about the other side. That was one of the first things that made me more open to Chabad and pushed me away from the Litvisher derech.
This person and many others charge that Chabad willfully seperates itself from the frum world. If one actually studies at a Chabad yeshiva for even one week they will see that Chabad’s philosophy is very different from many of the others. It has a very unique perspective and school of thought within Judaism and naturally those who are attracted to this will want to gravitate toward and hang around people and institutions with such a mindset just like in other communities.
Oh and the whole ‘Rebbe thing’ really, really took the cake. This ‘snag certainly belied his ignorance of not only Chabad, but of chassidism in general when he launched into his tirade against Chabad’s veneration of the Rebbe. Maybe he needs to spend some time amongst other Chassidim. Often their insularity protects them from such attacks, but most of them make our veneration of the Rebbe look like child’s play. Plus, does this person realize that the Breslev rebbe also can’t “fog up a mirror.”
If he’s wondering why the proportion of Chabad kids going off the derech is lower, the answer is simple. Chabad’s approach to Judaism is one of joy and rationality. Other Jewish groups may choose to ban everything under the son and serve G-d as if He were a fierce dictator, but we will keep doing it our way. The results shall speak for themselves.
Chabad’s approach to Judaism is not nearly intellectual enough for the average American? First of all, most Americans are hardly intellectuals. I’m an intensely patriotic American, but facts are facts. (Compare our nation’s students to those of other developed nations). Secondly, has this person ever actually read a maamer or discourse on Chassidus from any of the Chabad rebbeim? The Chabad approach is not only more spiritual, experiental, and emotionally satisfying than many other approaches to Judaism, but is highly intellectual. It is much more intellectual and less externally passionate by comparison to other types of Chassidus. This guy is spoken like a true prejudiced outsider who hasn’t really done his homework.
Stay in kollel, buddy. Let the big boys actually take care of klal Yisroel.
That was a beautiful work of “sweet talk” art. I hope you are a lawyer, or go into the field.
The fact is my friend, as many negative things you can “positively and insightfully” state about the ‘snags, (aside from the fact that most of them are simply not true) those same things and many more can be said about Chabad today in general.
And for every “nice and holy” image you try to give Chabad, there are dozens of flaws and untruths which come into focus when one observes them carefully.
Of course you won’t mention the actual point of contention, which is that the majority of Orthodox Judaism today considers the beliefs which exist in Chabad today not to be in accordance with the Torah, krum, and even heretical. If you can’t understand why this on it’s own would breed an almost complete separation between Chabad and the rest of Yiddishkeit, then you are not seeing reality.
As a side point, it is generally regarded as obnoxious to declare yourselves the “true Jews” while everyone else missed the boat. Even Ger (who was never accused of any serious distortions of the Torah) experiences some level of separation due to their aloofness. And they don’t say “Nobody else has a clue”. They just think they’re the best.
So please, don’t blame your separation, or the contempt Chabad is generally held in, on anyone but your own selves.
I am late on the game here but i found this article truly disgusting, and honestly i am offended. Where is the Ahavas Yisroel? Oh yah its not here because Chabad is bad so i can be bad. Ok im done now im going back to my “magic” Rebbe world.
Let me ask you a question Mrs. Sheva.
Theoretically speaking, if there were to be a group which started forming within Chabad, which would put down the Rebbe, and who would be in general very anti the Chabad establishment, disrespecting and disregarding the Rabbis currently in Chabad, and worst of all – would get all into kiruv, spreading their beliefs to everyone possible.
How do you think Chabad at large would react?
i just came upon this post and have to say that it reads like the rant of one jealous kiruv worker. my parents were sent on shlichus by the rebbe 36 yrs ago, i attended chabad institutions from pre-school to seminary, i am married 2 a crown heights lubab whose family have been lub. chassidim for many generations, i have been on shlichus for the last 12 years. obviously i can give u an insiders perspective on chabad. i can’t be offended by such patent ignorance, but i am saddened that readers believe this rot. you just don’t get chabad or their relationship with the rebbe. maybe your judaism is limited to the concrete, but, last time i checked, chabad did not have a monopoly on belief in the realms of the spirit. when i davened at amuka for a shidduch i wasn’t following some obscure chabad custom, nor was i when i put a kvittel in the kosel. your lack of understanding does not make a custom weird. do we have our weirdos? sure! it’s a by-product of our ahavas yisroel. but to say “all chabadniks believe.. they have to” is ridiculous. we all believe what we want to believe, like everyone else; and neither i, nor most lubabs i know believe the rebbe is magic.
“chabad rox at fundraising” also shows how limited is your experience, kind of like all jews are rich. not every shliach builds a big chabad house or can even pay his bills .
and u measure our effectiveness in terms which betray your own myopic view. we are not trying to make people lubavitch! we are effective when someone who was to be cremated is given kever yisroel, someone who ate lobster kashers her kitchen etc. we value mitzvos in their own right and we try to inspire people to be better jews, not to put on kapotes and black hats.
i just hope u pack some tuna and matza next time u travel. u don’t deserve the hospitality of “obscure place chabad”