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Can you be frum and liberal?

Whenever I talk to left wing Jews they always elicit some sort of shock when I tell them that finding a frum liberal is next to impossible. I’m not talking about modern orthodox Jews here, I’m talking about right of modern, black hat – wig wearing Jews who overwhelmingly tend to be right wing, far right wing in fact and tend to argue that you cannot possibly call yourself frum and be politically liberal at the same time. They say it’s impossible, because so much of what the liberals espouse is against the Torah and when you do meet a frum liberal there must be something seriously wrong with them.

My father is a classic frum right winger, he listens to talk radio, reads the NY Post, Yated Neeman and watches fox news. When I try to ask him why he doesn’t take a look at other political views to see what good ideas they may have he scoffs at me and asks me why he would want to read something he disagrees with – many people are like him on both sides of the coin – although I always felt that to produce an informed opinion, you needed to be informed. Both sides are agenda ridden and basically propaganda, everyone wants you to agree with them, but I just don’t like opinions formed from one sided views in the first place.

My father, like many orthodox Jews, bases his political leanings on the Torah. The Torah is apparently against gays, abortion (not so simple), immoral behavior and is pro-death penalty (unless you did teshuva with a lubavitch Rabbi and than started a really good publicity campaign) and if you try and argue that not everyone holds of the Torah the classic response would be that they have to keep the sheva-miztvos or they are chayiv misa anyway. I guess I may be a blasphemer, but I don’t believe in forcing others to adhere to my religion or religious standards in general. One of my biggest fears for America is that the Evangelical Right-Wingers take over and create a theocracy and start to force their religious ideals on the Jews and other denominations in America. That’s what would happen if everyone took this same attitude about voting according to scripture.

Of course, I understand the right wingers too – I just feel that forcing anyone to do anything blows; maybe that’s why I identify more with lefties than righties. The funny thing is, I kind of have a love/hate relationship with liberals. I hate extreme liberals for their fake tolerance, just as I hate extreme right wingers for their crazy “morals” that force everyone to follow their morals – but I digress – I’m curious about frum liberals.

The few black hat or frum liberals I have met have all been very learned in both talmudic and secular studies and they have been very intellectual. Every frum liberal I have met was a brilliant debater and enjoyed stumping right wingers at their own game and they have all maintained that if frum people would read more and expand their minds that there would be a larger frum and politically liberal community – yet in most cases – if you mention liberal you get this nasty tone from people telling you that all liberals are sick and immoral people.

{ 108 comments… add one }
  • ben September 27, 2010, 7:53 PM

    hey my mum is a liberal and she covers hear hair and dresses tzniusly all the time.
    i also have a friend in yeshivah who is a hardcore liberal but prob most religious kid in high school

  • Meir September 27, 2010, 7:59 PM

    On government spending, if you can’t be frum and liberal, someone had better let Shas and UTJ know!

    • Mahla September 28, 2010, 9:31 AM

      Shas, yiiiiikes! :^O

  • Thinkingbochur September 27, 2010, 8:00 PM

    I am a frum lubavitcher and I have not yet met another lubavitch who is a democrat, it is absurd . I think it is very similar to the Christian religious right.

    • Moi September 28, 2010, 5:37 PM

      The Republican party is the exclusive domain of the “Christian religious right,” not the Democratic party.

      Lubavitchers may not call themselves Democrats, but they sure are not Republicans if they are to be judged by their behavior.
      It is not secret that Lubavitchers line their pockets with copious amounts of welfare, hell they even have community offices set up to facilitate access to welfare. Frequent any grocery store in Crown Heights and witness the number of customers using food stamps or WIC. Frequent any local hospital or doctors office and watch millions of dollars in Medicaid billing in action.

      Lubavitchers, like most frum Jews are not Democrats or Republicans; they are opportunistic hypocrites who preach the gospel of small government while gorging on the taxpayers doll.
      They talk of liberty while suppressing their children and subjugating their women. They talk of freedom of worship while strong-arming their Chabad houses into residentially zoned neighborhoods and moan about a Mosque they find distasteful.
      They support local Democratic politicians, even hosting them for parties, while playing the roll of independent cowboy Republican when there are no sacrifices to be had.

      If opportunism were a political identification, it would suit them perfectly.

  • elana September 27, 2010, 8:01 PM

    well it seems to me that the only difference between right wing frummies and the evangelical right wingers that you fear is Jesus….

  • Thinkingbochur September 27, 2010, 8:02 PM

    PS: I wrote an article on this subject too , probably not as good as Heshy’s or maybe just different. http://thinkingbochur.blogspot.com/2010/04/bochurim-conservatives-or-libertarians.html

  • Thinkingbochur September 27, 2010, 8:14 PM

    by the way I wrote an article on this subject too , probably not as good as Heshy’s or maybe just different. http://thinkingbochur.blogspot.com/2010/04/bochurim-conservatives-or-libertarians.html

  • Yechiel September 27, 2010, 8:18 PM

    I can’t understand how someone can be frum and NOT be liberal. I have yet to meet anyone who is against any program that they are benefiting from.

    • Synapse September 27, 2010, 8:25 PM

      Are you kidding? That’s pretty much every frummie out there. They’re all about decrying the very programs they rely upon to feed their 12 kids and give them health care! Talk to some of these people and it’s pretty disturbing how they’re calling for an end to government assistance for the impoverished while buying milk with WICS. If they had their way, their lifestyle would be impossible.

      • Batsheva September 27, 2010, 9:58 PM

        It’s true. And pathetic.

  • Synapse September 27, 2010, 8:22 PM

    Both Liberalism and Conservativism are against Torah. The only answer, which is true for halacha also, is to evaluate every issue on it’s own merits and see what the Torah says. I identify as a moderate because I have my own opinions on each issue. Some which match this or that party and the rest that don’t. No party can truly represent me and the idea is absurd.

    The bigger crime is that many Jews have learned to turn off their critical thinking skills to support their Liberal/Conservative agenda. Who cares if the party is against what you REALLY believe, you’re a Democrat/Republican! This blind faith agreement to side with the political party of choice is also against Torah (Pirkei Avos is pretty explicit about not trusting politicians), but my friend is too busy believing the bs he learned from NPR/Rush Limbaugh to care that what he heard may be completely rhetoric (despite having a good gemara kopf).

    • sergeant J September 27, 2010, 8:36 PM

      Yeah, I can’t be bothered being “Conservative” or “liberal”.. I have opinions, and neither of those groups support enough of them to be worth my time.

      • Synapse September 27, 2010, 8:51 PM

        I think the best part is when I poke holes in the common brainless arguments I am automatically labeled as being the opposite side. I’m a Democrat/Liberal for supporting Obama’s initiative on X and a Republican/Conservative for being against his initiative on Y.

        Just today I was labeled a Democrat for saying that America wasn’t a socialist country. The guy didn’t even have a correct understanding of what Socialism is to really say if America would qualify, but again it’s critical thinking that’s antithetical to their politics.

        Why can’t people be intellectuals and actually understand the difference between a polemic and the reality?

  • John September 27, 2010, 8:22 PM

    For once I agree with you. I am a liberal frummy, and I must say we are a very rare breed. Maybe I fall in the category of “very learned in both talmudic and secular studies and they have been very intellectual”
    (Though to clarify the torah is not pro-death penalty (at least not the way it is administered in the US)

    • Synapse September 27, 2010, 8:30 PM

      As a note I would suggest the Torah is very pro-governments working out their own courts of justice and as a result supports a goyishe government in it’s decision to have/not have the death penalty. Us having it isn’t against Torah (the Torah doesn’t mandate that their system be equal to ours) and neither would it be against Torah if we got rid of it.

      • John September 27, 2010, 8:58 PM

        nothing you said (while wrong), contradicts what I said

        • Synapse September 28, 2010, 5:19 AM

          I’m not trying to contradict you at all, just to point out what the rights of the government are. That aside, I’m not sure what by basis you think it’s wrong. The premise is that the government has the power to decide when it’s appropriate to execute people (Never could be an option) and that’s pretty accurate.

          • John September 28, 2010, 6:34 AM

            The torah is not pro-governments working out their court system in any way they please. Im not sure where you got the idea that its a goyishe government’s “decision to have/not have the death penalty” I dont know the parameters of dinim as outlined in the 7 mitzvos bnei noach but it doesnt include everything. To use an admitedly extreme example, the gemara and midrash outline sedom;s system of ” justice” such as being forced to pay somebody who wounded you etc etc. That was their system of justice and yet they are called “raim vachataim lehashem meod”

            • Synapse September 29, 2010, 4:18 AM

              I didn’t say in any way they please. But one of the 7 noahide laws is to set up their own courts of justice in which they can determine their own rules and regulations. The only parameters are within their own noahide laws (how it interacts with us is more complicated, but they can even legitimately put a Jewish person to death). The example you bring is one from midrashim about Sodom and Gemorra, not exactly a paragon of the 7 laws (the opposite in fact), whereas we’re talking about the modern western world which would be considered unbelievably righteous to the kinds of governments our ancestors delt with (and even then the right of the government to execute people for various crimes was both recognized and often supported).

  • Thinkingbochur September 27, 2010, 8:27 PM

    “I identify as a moderate because I have my own opinions on each issue. Some which match this or that party and the rest that don’t. No party can truly represent me and the idea is absurd.”

    that would make you an independent not a moderate

    • Synapse September 27, 2010, 8:33 PM

      I’m independent because I don’t identify with any party. I’m moderate because my opinions on any given issue will float around the spectrum sometimes left and sometimes right, but in overall I fall in the middle. Sorry if that’s unclear.

      Try a test like http://www.politicalcompass.org/ – I literally end up in the exact middle.

    • sergeant J September 27, 2010, 8:39 PM

      In the US, there are not “liberal” or “conservative” parties, just people who blindly follow the ideals that some moron poses as “conservative” or “liberal” in all parties. Likewise, there is no “moderate” party to NOT be a part of. You can have independent thought and turn out to have a moderate bent, so they are not mutually exclusive.

  • Bubba Metzia September 27, 2010, 8:28 PM

    I hear that there are Haredi labor unions nowadays.

    • AMR September 28, 2010, 6:29 AM

      There always have been I worked for one once upon a time.

  • Dani September 27, 2010, 8:35 PM

    You are very observant. You hit it right on the head. Not to say that I’m liberal, I’m not, but I’m no longer as conservative as I used to be. PEOPLE – read both sides befre making decisions. Don’t just read who you agree with, read all opinions and remove your bias. Our Torah laws shouldn’t apply for non Jews just because it benefits us. It’s a double standard.

    • sergeant J September 27, 2010, 8:44 PM

      Too right. If you are not Jewish, I don’t care if you eat pork, abort every other pregnancy, and allow public orgies, as long as you are not hindering my rights to practice religion my way, and to have the culture I am a part of. I would rather side with folks that let me do my thing, than folks who try to take away my freedoms. Sadly, both of the two big US parties have people that seem to want to take away my rights in one form or another..

  • AS September 27, 2010, 8:42 PM

    All I will say is this, when it comes to funding for Yeshivas and Priority-7 after school funding, the charedim are pretty sure Keynes was right..

  • AS September 27, 2010, 8:46 PM

    Also, most frummie politicians I know (at least in NYC) are Democrats. Shelly Silver, Dov Hikind, David Greenfield, Simcha Felder, David etc etc.

    • David September 28, 2010, 2:11 AM

      Shelly Silver and Dov Hikind are not “frummies”. They’re Orthodox.

      • S. Tefilinov September 28, 2010, 3:39 PM

        Hikind is Democrat in name only.

  • Thinkingbochur September 27, 2010, 9:17 PM

    Also liberal and conservative is a type of mindset , so it does not need to define a persons view on everything rather it is a general set of guiding principals.

  • Anonymous September 27, 2010, 9:32 PM

    >Of course, I understand the right wingers too – I just feel that forcing anyone to do anything blows – maybe that’s why I identify more with lefties than righties.

    Both sides tend to force the other into things. Personally, for me, when I think of a Nanny State, it is typically descriptive of the left (not all liberals are leftists). Think of private businesses and laws which are passed forcing them to “do” things.

    >if you mention liberal you get this nasty tone from people telling you that all liberals are sick and immoral people.

    Thats probably because ever since the 60’s, liberals has shifted more to the left.

  • Tova September 27, 2010, 9:38 PM

    I think much of Yiddishkeit, halacha and Jewish customs are left-wing – perhaps even socialistic. That’s one of the reasons I reject so much of the rules and beliefs; in my view, they are paternalistic and restrict liberty. (Your mileage may vary.)

    • Whaaaat? September 29, 2010, 9:36 AM

      Would you like a cookie?

  • Tova September 27, 2010, 9:43 PM

    By the way, I really agreed with the thrust of this post. Both extreme Right and extreme Left pose a threat to the citizenry’s freedom.

    And as far as ‘theocracy’ is concerned, one already exists in many ways. For example, think about the fact that Christian religious holidays are often federal holidays. And anyone who says that days like Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas are ‘not religious celebrations’ is simply supporting the argument that Christianity is such a ‘default’ religion that its holidays no longer seem spiritually focused.

    • Meir September 27, 2010, 10:23 PM


      How can you possibly compare something that was always primarily an American national holiday, ever had only a vague vote for theism of some kind at any time and does not anymore (and which was and is celebrated by plenty of American Orthodox Jews)

      to the holidays celebrating the birth and death of Jesus?

      • Tova September 27, 2010, 10:26 PM

        Well, because it’s still a religious holiday. Thanksgiving was instituted as a day to thank God for plenty; I don’t know that one can call it secular. Besides, frum Jews’ celebration of Thanksgiving wouldn’t suddenly make the holiday non-religious.

  • Tova September 27, 2010, 9:44 PM

    …My first comment didn’t get published. Here’s the gist:

    So much of Yiddishkeit is left-wing in the worst way: it’s paternalistic and limits or forbids liberty. That’s why I rejected a lot of it.

    • AS September 28, 2010, 1:08 AM

      While I agree that Yiddishkeit is totalitarian, but I think saying “left-wing” is just unfair. Do you think what it says in a tribal document written over a period of centuries over 2500 years ago represents the values of the left?

      It would be like me describing Benito Mussolini’s fascist government as “right-wing”.

      The terms “right” and “left” are WAY TO BROAD TERMS. I am sure it was just a mistake on your behalf though 🙂

      • Tova September 28, 2010, 1:45 AM

        It wasn’t a mistake.

        • AS September 28, 2010, 2:00 AM

          The violence and tribal values the Old Testament teaches belong to no political faction other than dangerous theocracy, which does not have a place in the mainstream right or left. (I’m not saying you intended to compare the Torah to today’s right or left, but you did not distinguish either)

          Of course you can have the opinion that in some cases the Torah does support things that would be called ‘social justice’ but to just classify the entire thing as “left wing” is really an unnecessary slap in the face to the left, who have secular social values.

          • AS September 28, 2010, 2:03 AM

            As Christopher Hitchens says, Louis Farrakahn’s organization probably gets a lot of kids off drugs. But it does not make his organization just “anti-drug use”. Do you see what I mean?

            • Anonymous September 28, 2010, 12:37 PM

              >“left-wing” is just unfair.

              It is broad, but there is a lot of fairness in it. Both religion in general, and leftism in general support an ideology of “we know best.” Think increasing smoking laws, food laws, what one can and can’t do in his own private business etc. One MAY think of equality as the most important factor, but liberty is always jeopardized in its path

              • AMR September 28, 2010, 1:06 PM

                you now sound like Rand Paul

                who said, “of course if I were to hire a handicapped person I would let them work on the first floor. So why does the government make me install an elevator”

                sorry liberty has to do with freedom. being able to yell fire in a crowded movie house is NOT an example of liberty, it is an example of stupidity.

              • AS September 28, 2010, 1:23 PM

                Everyone believes they know best, and is probably a characteristic of human evolution.

                Liberty is also a very broad word. In the same way libertarians believe in liberty when it comes to the market, I believe in liberty when it comes to protecting employees who try to form a union.

                A problem with total and unadulterated liberty, is it can lead to corporate gangsterism, like “union busters” and slums. Sure I believe in liberty, but I believe in common decency as well.

                • Anonymous September 28, 2010, 1:59 PM

                  >Sure I believe in liberty, but I believe in common decency as well.

                  So do I. So does everyone. But who are you to shove what you believe is decent down my throat? I also believe in the ability for companies not to be hijacked by unions as well. I believe someone should be employed without being forced to join a union either.

                  >being able to yell fire in a crowded movie house is NOT an example of liberty, it is an example of stupidity.

                  Never said otherwise.

                  • Anonymous September 28, 2010, 2:02 PM

                    >Everyone believes they know best, and is probably a characteristic of human evolution.

                    So what? Does that mean you need to let your ancestral past dictate every sort of nanny urge you (not YOU literally) may have down the legislative pike?

                    • AS September 28, 2010, 3:32 PM

                      My point being everyone thinks they know best, not just on the left.

                  • AMR September 28, 2010, 3:55 PM

                    OK Dont join the union
                    but realize that today there are vacation days, and sick days BECAUSE of unions.
                    There are things like OSHA BECAUSE of unions.
                    remember capitalists want as little as possible workers working as long as possible for as little as possible of money.
                    and unions want as many workers as possible doing as little as possible for as much money as possible.

                    (just so we know I am way pro union)

                    the benefits for all of having unions certainly outweigh any of the negatives and there are negatives.

                    For years marriot workers did not join the unions because marriot hotels management gave them a better deal.

                    For years truckers would die on the roads until there were unions because the companies made them drive until they fell over.

                    • AS September 28, 2010, 5:46 PM

                      Exactly AMR, and that is why I get so sickened when anyone tries to compare unions to corporations. Sure power corrupts, and union bosses are not exempt from this, but when unions take in more, so do the workers. And as you said before, the workplace can reject the union in an election if they feel they get a better deal with the company.

                      And some states have already made union dues tax deductible, but of course the federal government can never help workers out, right libertarians?

                    • Anonymous September 28, 2010, 6:52 PM

                      >OK Dont join the union

                      Can I become a teacher without joining their unions?

                      Unions served (and in many cases) still do serve a purpose. But what happens when public unions and their interests runs amok? All of us pay for it. Teachers unions? Public utility unions? Each has his own bottom line at its interest and only that. Do they care for the rest of the citizens that have to pay for what they FEEL entitled to? I, personally, fear union corruption much more than I do corporate corruption and i am talking about public unions here.

                      >For years truckers would die on the roads until there were unions because the companies made them drive until they fell over.

                      a) nobody can “make” you do anything you don’t want to. You don’t HAVE to be a trucker. I’m glad things were fixed of course, but be aware of the language you use.
                      b) do you EVER feel that unions, if they don’t get what they want, act irresponsibly by almost hijacking a company till they cave in?

                    • Anonymous September 28, 2010, 7:01 PM

                      >but realize that today there are vacation days, and sick days BECAUSE of unions.

                      If you are talking about private businesses with unions making that decision, than fine. If you are talking about government stepping in force private business to do that, well then, you might be OK with that, but at least realize that, that comes at a cost of your Liberty.

                    • offthedwannab September 28, 2010, 7:17 PM

                      As in everything, you need balance. American car companies used to keep wages down and beat up workers trying to unionize. Now, unions have bankrupted the auto industry.
                      Pursuit of money, like it or not, makes the world go round. Unions use leverage (workforce) just like business owners (jobs) to get the money they want. Don’t be naive.

    • Whaaaat? September 28, 2010, 4:26 PM

      “Left Wing” and “Right Wing” all depends where you stand.

      Do you feel that you are a better person now that you have rejected it all?

  • Batsheva September 27, 2010, 10:04 PM

    In answer to the question posed in the title: Yes. You just have to choose between keeping your political leanings a secret or having a significant percentage of your community give you grief.

  • confused September 27, 2010, 10:10 PM

    is that really true?

  • Jake ballsakowitz September 27, 2010, 10:11 PM

    Dude chill out

  • Milhouse September 27, 2010, 10:14 PM

    Vosisneis everyone fly like a g6 like a g6 lllllll like a g6 like a lime a g6 !?????????

  • Lil rabbi September 27, 2010, 10:16 PM

    Dude grow up

  • Versace September 27, 2010, 10:18 PM

    Who left the lights On in the kitchen you know I’m paying for electricity????

  • Randomites September 27, 2010, 10:20 PM

    Stop being so frikin random

  • Frum jew September 27, 2010, 10:29 PM

    WiTh today’s electricity prices you better make sure you turned it off LOL!!!

  • Out with the old and in with the new September 27, 2010, 10:31 PM


  • revolutionary marxist September 28, 2010, 12:46 AM

    does liberal mean communist in america? i can’t really see any difference between democrats and republicans. if democrats are left-wing mussolini would be centre :-/

    where i come from liberal means you believe in the free market laissez faire capitalism and frummies don’t concern themseleves with secular politics.

    • AS September 28, 2010, 1:11 AM

      Yes that is the British term of describing it. I had friends ask me (I’m a bit of an international political junkie) how is it possible that the Conservative Party can make a coalition with the Liberal Democrats? 🙂

      • Dovybear September 28, 2010, 7:54 AM

        Your friends aren’t the only ones asking… The short answer: whatever it takes to be in power…

        • AS September 28, 2010, 10:07 AM

          Yes but the Lib Dems and the Conservatives have a lot in common in terms of what the words mean in the UK

          • Dovybear September 28, 2010, 5:52 PM

            Absolute balderdash, my friend. The two parties have been on opposite sides of the political divide since the dawn of party politics way back in the reign of Queen Anne, just by the way, the terms “left” and “right” as regards politics came about because the Liberals sat in the left wing of the House of Commons and the Conservatives in the right wing. The Liberal Democrat party is basically a revamped, renamed Liberal party, though they did it way back in the early 20th Century (it really started way back in 1850 or so but never really happened until post-WW2). The nicknames of the two parties – the Tories and the Whigs – were actually derogatory terms used by their opponents, the Liberals referred to the Conservatives as Tories, Gaelic for sheep-stealers, and the Conservatives referred to the Liberals as Whigs, a band of Scottish rebels. The Conservatives are small-government pro-capitalists, the Lib Dems large-government democratic socialists. So no, they have nothing in common whatsoever and never have had.

            • Anonymous September 29, 2010, 12:42 AM

              neither of them have any policies or principles, if they ever had. they have this in common with nu-labour.

              in europe liberal means economic liberalism, i don’t recognize any left wing party in america.

              • Dovybear September 29, 2010, 7:09 AM

                Who in politics has policies nowadays?!

  • yudes September 28, 2010, 2:57 AM

    hesh my life has become brighter since i found your blog, this post is so true, i spent the first days of yomtov listening to my lakewood brothers and sisters quote rush, hannity, savage, mark levin its absurd how these guys are promoted by the yated , even ann coulter comes up , im telling you rush is the real lakewood rosh yeshiva, all the kollel guys listen to him at 130 after first seder while running to pick up thier kid from daycare . the most amazing thing is how scaredc they are to see anything liberal its as if they think reading the huffinton post turns you overnight into a crazy commie. on chol hamoed i held a family watching of democracy now, after which i was almost stoned , after which i was informed that “lmayseh rush is ah emiseh lamdan not like this mudneh amy goodman, shes mamish no shaychis shes tayning shtusim”, what a world

    • Thinkingbochur September 28, 2010, 9:29 PM

      I think it owuld be very useful to make all frum people watch every Michael moore video , because he brings out the point so well . Especially when he pretends to be the so called “stupid” American.

  • yudes September 28, 2010, 3:01 AM

    also high on the list is the idea that it doesnt matter how many soldiers die in iraq because its not a draft army its a volunteer army , so if a soldier gets killed its not the presidents achrayus its pashut a p’shia mitzad the soldier for volunteerng,

  • OfftheDwannaB September 28, 2010, 4:43 AM

    I think the real problem is that most people have some negeius. There can be no real listening if there’s an agenda driving your side.

    If your worldview is such that the Torah is correct, some people feel that harboring thoughts or feelings of disagreement will send them to hell. Or, if you feel repressed for whatever reason, anti-establishment causes will draw you in regardless of the exact circumstances involved.

    As such, you listen to people who can present your already established views in a more logical way than you can in order to calm you into thinking your belief system is logical.

    That leaves us stuck in our current politically-polarized nation, where everyone (news outlets and individuals alike) picks a side, where progress by either side is looked at suspiciously, and where the only ones who really win are the career politicians.

    • Anonymous September 29, 2010, 12:50 AM

      yeah it is true they are at each others throats except both sides aren’t that different. they are both right-of-centre and only seem to disagree about stupid lifestyle issues. gays and masturbation aren’t serious political matters. :-/

    • Mahla September 29, 2010, 8:59 AM

      That’s soooooo true OfftheDwannaB!

  • AMR September 28, 2010, 6:40 AM

    Actually it is quite uncomprehendable to me that any minority group in the US can be anything from a Democrat. Does anyone really think that there is any Republican, aside from Arlen Spector, that cares if JEws can play in Agusta?
    What about all of the Facist (read left wing and extreme left wing) programs that many of the ultra Frum adhere to and often defraud as a way of life? How many apartments in the greater NYC Area are available for section 8 subsidies and have Haredei Jews living in them?
    What about all the Jews who work for non Jewish firms and yet have the ability to take off for holidays, the Jewish ones, without fear of termination?

    Jews, especially religious ones, who vote Republican in the US are a clear definition of “self hating”
    If Jews are so disgusted with the Democratic Party then why dont they try to take it back?
    Is the issue Abortion or Womens rights – arent women through Judiaism looking for more areas and avenues of participation?

    • John September 28, 2010, 9:52 AM

      You have a very simplistic view of frummies and of the political system.
      It is ridiculous to vote for a party based on that party’s history. dont vote for Republicans becasue they are the party of Lincoln and were more vigorous in opposing slavery, and dont vote for Democrats becasue they were more instrumental in fighting for civil rights. Examine the where the party lies TODAY and vote accordingly. No Republican that I am aware of, is calling for repeal of laws that protect against religous discrimination, so Im not quite sure what your opoint was there.
      As thinking individuals, it is very unlikely that a person’s views will fully align with a particular party let alone candidate. We think about our views and vote for the party (or better yet candidate) with whom we agree on either more issues or what we feel are the more important issues. For some reason (perhaps Fallwell’s religous right ideas seeped into frummy society)Frummies decided that what is most important to them are social issues such as abortion and gays. On those issues they more closely align with Republicans. Try it, ask most frummies to tell you the difference between Democrtas and republicans and you wont get a speech about the virtues of big vs little govt, nor of govt being the problem. More often than not you will get a speech about the “immorality” of the democrats regarding abortion, gays etc Clinton and monica Lewinsky may come up. (If you really want to confuse them, point out that Gulliani, a hero to the NY frummies i grew up with, is socially quite liberal.). Israel also comes up which regardless of your view, what the frummies perceive as being pro-Israel is more closely aligned with the Republicans especialy the neo-cons.
      As far as taking back the Democratic Party, what are you talking about, do you think Democrats would switch on social issues?
      You ask: “arent women through Judiaism looking for more areas and avenues of participation?” No not frummy ones (as a group).

      Full disclosure I am a Frummy who voted for Obama

      • AMR September 28, 2010, 9:58 AM

        The Hardim are in for a shock if any TEA party or further right candidates actually make it into office, a very large shock!

        • Mahla September 29, 2010, 9:00 AM

          LOL! ;^D

        • john September 29, 2010, 9:47 AM

          Dont be silly, no tea party let alone further right candidate is going to ever be in a postition to do anything. At best there will be a senator or two and a handful of congressmen, until people realize they are full of hot air and catchy slogans without any substance.

          • Dovybear September 29, 2010, 11:14 AM

            Hey, don’t knock hot air and catchy slogans – they worked for Obama…

            • John September 29, 2010, 1:28 PM

              Even if that were true, it wont help to keep him for a second term. Which is precisly my point

  • fgk September 28, 2010, 8:38 AM

    I am a closet democrat lubavitch woman.

    • Thinkingbochur September 28, 2010, 12:28 PM

      Fgk I think it is terrible that you have to be a closet democrat , why do you need to be a closet democrat?

  • ? September 28, 2010, 9:25 AM

    I just stubbed my Toe ouch!!!!

    • Whaaaat? September 29, 2010, 11:32 AM

      While you were sitting @ ur computer?

  • No one cares if you stubbed your Toe September 28, 2010, 9:26 AM

    Ha ha that suks

  • Philo September 28, 2010, 9:54 AM


    I think your missing one big reason that so mny frum people are so conservative in their politics. If a frum Jew wants to hear healthy and unstinting support for Israel, the best place is the right wing talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc, or Fox News. Especially these days, when Israel is under attack more & more by the extreme left, it’s a port in the storm for many frum Jews. The problem is, once they’re listening, they swallow whole the other opinons and ideas that are fed to them. It becomes Pavlovian – support for Israel = Obama is a Muslim = the health care plan is evil = tea party.

    • Anonymous September 28, 2010, 5:53 PM

      You’ve got it exactly right. It’s rare to hear a voice of reason these days.

  • Philo September 28, 2010, 9:57 AM

    60 years ago, almost all Jews in the US, including frum ones, were strong Democrats. It was almost a religious value. FDR was beloved by Jews of all stripes. The New Deal was seen to reflect Jewish values.

    • Jen May 3, 2012, 1:29 AM

      Um, yeah, except that Fiorello LaGuardia (who was Jewish and had family in the camps) begged him over and over to do something about what the Nazis were doing, and FDR did nothing until we got bombed in Pearl Harbor. Also, up until just the past few decades, the Dems were actually more to the right on many issues, including labor and civil rights, than the GOP. Southern Democrat types were running the show — think Robert Byrd of West Virginia.

  • Whaaaat? September 28, 2010, 10:03 AM

    I am a Libertarian and quite frum (I think.)
    Whilst Halachically I am against Gay marriage, Politically I am for it.
    I think you just have to be clear enough to differentiate the difference.
    Politically – there are no grounds that can keep 2 men/ 2 woman from marrying each other, hence I am for it.
    Halachically – I am an Orthodox Jew, who follows the Torah, if G-d says something is not allowed I wont do it (to the best of my ability).

    Problem arises when it comes to voting on the issue, I guess then you would ask your LOR.

  • Anonymous September 28, 2010, 12:23 PM

    Why the he’ll is noone responding to my crazy comments respond dammit

    • offthedwannab September 28, 2010, 2:15 PM

      here im responding. pretend im your mother and im giving you all the love u needed but didnt get. And now please stfu.

  • It's a shanda September 28, 2010, 4:59 PM

    Bla bla bla

  • Yankel September 28, 2010, 8:27 PM

    Can you be liberal-ish?
    Like are there levels, or you have to be 100% accepting of EVERYTHING that ANYONE wants to do in order to get the title?

  • FrumGer September 28, 2010, 9:15 PM

    I totally agree with this post 150%…..

  • Frum Milf Banger September 28, 2010, 9:37 PM

    Are liberal or conservative milfs hotter?

    • Mahla September 29, 2010, 9:02 AM

      Well, who’d you rather … Ann Coulter or Ariana Huffington?

  • Phil September 29, 2010, 12:45 PM

    Here’s the kind of crap that Jewish left wing liberalism leads to, just noticed a Google ad for this on the blog:


    • Anonymous October 4, 2010, 10:21 AM

      What’s wring with that? Why are you so obsessed with hating gays?
      Could it be, just possibly, that you have some queer tendencies as well?

      You are the kind of hateful crap that right wing Orthodox brainwashing leads to.

      I generally find that the more people obsess over gays, the more likely they are hiding something. Real straight men just don’t care.

  • uhh September 29, 2010, 8:51 PM

    ann coulter obviously

  • geoff October 3, 2010, 9:11 PM


    Fiscally speaking, liberalism forces people to do way more than conservatism.

    The only trick in the liberal bag is spend, and at some point the people are forced to pay for it.

    TARP, cash for clunkers, etc. Same things with different names… print and spend.


  • Jen May 3, 2012, 1:22 AM

    I can’t help but think (and giggle) about how I pissed off some folks at a dinner at shul a few weeks ago by defending OWS on the simple grounds that I am on public assistance and quite definitely a member of the 99%… I’m very liberal but also frum. Like someone else said already, if you’re not Jewish, I don’t expect you to follow Torah. I also don’t necessarily expect a fellow Jew to follow Torah in that I’m not G-d, and, Baruch Hashem, it’s not my job to go around being the One True Judge with other people. I try to just go about my life, expressing who I am and what I’m about through my actions. I may certainly have an opinion on your behavior and beliefs, but I make it a point to not get up in your face with what I think (unless you ask for my opinion, or if what you’re doing is just unbelievably reprehensible, like bullying someone). Most times, though, I don’t hang out with you if I can’t respect you. Very simple and saves me from a lot of headaches and unwanted drama.

    Granted, all that said… I’m also a convert and did have a secular education, though I also went to Catholic school and had their crap crammed down my throat from age four to 17.

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