Most of the folks I grew up with or knew on the upper west side took the elevator. My friends were of the “oops” variety, they would sneeze or nudge the button with their shoulder. Some people were of the “excuse me could you hit” types who would wait until someone showed up to take the elevator, hop in and ask them to hit their floor. My family was the doorman type, the doorman knew that when we walked in on shabbos he would press the button for us and walk away without us saying anything.
Unfortunately our building was filled with frummies, basically anyone who walked up more than 4 flights of stairs we considered “really” religious and our building was full of them. We would see them trudging up the stairs as we walked down in our shabbos afternoon attire “shorts, t-shirts and baseball glove”, but what really irked us was when they “caught” us taking the elevator on shabbos.
You see my father was kind of known around the neighborhood as a learned fellow, he was also one of the old school guys who could flow with the Chassidim in the Vorhand Shteeble, yet he wore jeans and baseball hats during the week. So whenever we took the elevator up to our 8th floor apartment we made sure no one was coming. I myself felt kind of awkward when the Korassics would show up in their shabbos hats and wigs and we were standing in the elevator in our shabbos clothes waiting for the damned door to close.
The door on our elevator took forever to close, so for about 1 minute while we waited for it to close we were sitting ducks, any frummies walking to our side of the building would see us and we would be ashamed for being so non-frum by taking the elevator. In later years by brother and I would walk, but boy was it ever awkward when we had guests who refused to take the elevator (we rarely had such guests, but I recall we once did)
The other awkward thing about taking the elevator on shabbos was when you could hear people in the lobby with a bunch of bags saying hold the elevator. We would watch in horror as they just made it and we didn’t hold the door, I’m sure they stood there wondering what the hell was wrong with us.
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Reminds me of taking 12 flights of stairs on shabbos when going on cruises with my nonobservant family. The elevator looks so enticing and there are so many nonjews I could ask to press the button but I always worry that I’m going to mistake a Jew for a goy and force them to break shabbos for me. And the worst is pretending I don’t mind walking up all those flights of stairs…because if I act like I mind my family gives me a “stop being so effing frum” attitude and then they try to force me on the elevator.
lol, me and my grandma would walk down,and take the “shabbos” elevator up on the way back from shul. it stopped on every floor automatically.
You know, Hesh, as long as you had your Shabbos doorman pushing the buttons, and you weren’t specifically making the request, there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking the elevator. Zero. Nada. Efes. Gornisht. If maris ayin is an issue, you can just tell them that the doorman always pushes the buttons for you–end of problem. As far as I’m concerned, those other frummier than thou types weren’t any frummer, they were just dumber. The “hold the elevator” situation is worse, though. That would definitely stink.
So if I sit in the backseat of a car on shabbat and don’t tell or ask someone to take me anywhere, but they do, is that ok? Wouldn’t getting on the subway in ny that goes and stops without having to ask or push any buttons or activate a detector also be ok?
you cant sit in a moving car because extra weight deprieciate the MPG’s.. The car would then use more Gasoline to fuel the engine, even if just a small amount more its like you throwing that gas on the fire. Electricity works differently then a gas car so the analogy is flawed.
There was a psak din about this in E”Y. It said that it takes extra electricity to hold up the extra weight that you add when you step into the elevator, so as long as the laws of gravity are still functioning inside an elevator, you’re doing an aveira.
It also takes extra electricity when people walk in the middle of the street on Shabbos causing cars to slow down and/or swerve out of the way. I don’t see any rabbis condemning such acts.
I was once told by a rabbi that you should not try to make a car stop on shabbos/yontef. Though I think the reason might have been that Jews could be driving those cars, and we didn’t want to delay the cessation of aveiras.
Wow, that is interesting, but it makes sense.
Let me pick a “random” example. Say a goy boils hot water for tea for his jewish employer. Nobody asked him to. Sound kosher to you?
Mr. Chosid,
Although I see your point, and I happen to agree, since when is there a problem to drink water which a goy boiled? Maybe if it were Shabbos, I can see some sort of issue. Otherwise there is absolutely nothing wrong.
His point was shabbos. The halacha is that you can’t benefit from a melacha that a nonjew does specifically for a jew. You can benefit if the nonjew was doing it for his own benefit, like if he turned on a reading light for himself, you can also read by that light.
That is literally the example the Shulchan Oruch brings of a perfect example of amira lnachri. 100% ossur. If a melocha was done for a Jew, regardless if anyone asked, hinted or even told the guy not to do it, it is forbidden to benefit from it.
This has nothing to do with chumras or being holier than thou. It’s a matter of following halacha or not.
But let’s say a non-Jewish man put on a kettle of water to make tea for ~himself~, it was not a work duty or anything of that nature, and then thought to himself “perhaps my Jewish friend might like a cup of tea” and offered him a cup of tea as an afterthought.
THEN could the Jewish man accept the cup of tea? That’s how I’m reading this.
Theoretically that would be ok (pretty impressive how well you’re hitting the nail on the head with your questions) but the Rabbis decreed that this should be forbidden, because we are concerned that a non-Jew will intentionally add more water to the kettle when boiling it up IN CASE his friend might want, thus constituting ‘cooking FOR him’.
You know bat sheva that you have no clue what you’re talking about.there are halachic problems, real halachic problems, that have nothing to do with maarit ayin. Not saying that one can’t come up with a heter, what I am saying is that a heter is needed.
“as long as you had your Shabbos doorman pushing the buttons, and you weren’t specifically making the request, there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking the elevator. Zero. Nada. Efes. Gornisht”
I’m sorry, but this is straight up incorrect. Not slightly, not mostly, not “according to the letter but against the spirit”, but straight up WRONG. (if you keep shabbos that is)
A non-jew CANNOT do a melacha FOR you. If he does, it is subsequently forbidden to benefit from his action.
What you’re probably referring to (because we’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you did in fact hear whatever you did from a reliable orthodox source), is that it is permitted to benefit from the melacha of a non-Jew, when he did it FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT. Or perhaps you refer to the Halacha of a ‘Choleh’ – a sick person(not deathly sick), where many d’rabonon’s are overridden. Or as a last resort, for a ‘tzibur’ – a large group of Jews who are experiencing discomfort, it may also sometimes be permitted.
You can’t tell a goy to do a melacha for you unless he;s going to directly benefit from that melacha. It might be different if he does it on his own without you asking.
My cousin recently got a heter from his orthodox rabbi to fly to Australia/cross the dateline over Shabbos. Basically, he had to be there on a Monday morning and couldn’t leave early enough to get there before Shabbos. He left on Friday and landed on Sunday, so as long as he didn’t touch any of the electronics on the plane, he was OK.
Phil, that case is almost identical to a case which is in a Mishna about going on a boat on Shabbat. There were then a lot of tshuvot and rulings later about on a boat. See http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il/msg01046.html which gives a summary of many of the classical opinions and sources. I don’t see why an airplane would be very different.
In these cases, I get into an elevator with other people. I say nothing and get off on the closest floor to the one I need that has been pushed by someone else and walk the rest, as needed. Don’t ask, don’t tell.
We would always take the steps, but now since my mom’s disabled and has a walker, we do the elevator. In our building we’re the only frummies, so no one can judge us, which rocks.
Anyone who would condemn a disabled person for taking the elevator instead of laboring up stairs needs to examine his priorities, especially around Yom Kippur.
Elevator – Halachically is ok, especially for a disabled person.
The question R’ Nuran is, would YOU condemn a disabled person for violating the Torah? Say… straight up chillul Shabbos – driving to shul because walking is too painful.
Life is full of tradeoffs. I would almost always err on the side of compassion when dealing with someone who has chronic pain or disability. It’s a matter between him or her and God and generally not any of my business.
So your problem is with condemning in general, and not just with the dramatic case which you drew up with the disabled person…
No. My problem is with people who would add to the burdens of a person in that situation.
Your problem is that you have to leap into battle to defend The Tribe against the horrible apikoros whether there’s actually a reason to or nto.
Not any more or less of a reason than attacking them in the first place.
Aside from one post where you implied that you believed G-d did not create the world, I don’t think you’re an apikoros. However, I do think you often mistakenly worship the concepts of compassion and right and wrong in place of their own creator and designer.
You dont deserve the title apikoras. The title apikoras must be earned by insiteful questions, raisng intelligent points etc etc. You nuran based on many of your comments are nothing more than a silly, angry child
sorry
I’m in a wheelchair – frum for the most part of my life. I felt suffocated by the rabbis who started telling it was ossur to do this & that on Shabbos when I went into my chair. I had a rov who told me the best thing I could do was lay in bed all day. My apt had a power door which is ossur to use. I live in an apt building – only way out is elevator – also ossur. Front doors are power – open by accessible button & the other is an auto slide door. Our entire building, inc floors have safety cameras. Totally ossur, right? So apparently this particular rov who supposed to be well-versed re: disabilities, thinks we all may as well stay in our beds throughout Shabbos & Yontif. So I’ve made a compromise & figure it’s between me & Hashem. I refuse to be forced to be incapacitated on Shaabos & Yontif when I can do just as others with a few minor changes. Less frum? Maybe – but no one is taking that from me!
I agree, shouldn’t Jews be worrying about how they treat other Jews rather than other people’s business?
I started using the shabbos elevator once I was pregnant and now with kids….can’t imagine ever doing the five flights again. It is weird when people wait for me outside the elevator but I dont think anyone thinks anything of it, especially when I have the stroller and whatnot
“Vorhand Shteeble”.
I was there in the 80′s for Simchas Torah. Best Early Minyan anywhere. Great davening. Even better Kiddush !
It seems as universal as it is strange that some outwardly religious people fear their fellow man a great deal more than they fear God! It does not ~matter~ whether or not another mortal person catches an observant Jew “nudging” an elevator button with an elbow on Shabbos, or an observant Muslim becoming drunk in his own home, or an observant Christian who is fornicating.
God has obviously seen ~everything.~ That is what an observant person should be concerned about.
A. Nuran touched on that when he made the comment that it’s a matter between a person and God. And what one Christian thinker, I believe it was C.S. Lewis, touched upon when he mused that many devout Christians are honestly not as afraid of Hell as they are of cancer.
Look, I’m not a fan of Christianity either, but the phenomenon you’re pointing out is not exclusive to Christianity. Every human will by default be more shaken by a visible tangible understandable physical threat (like a madman with a machine gun), than by an abstract obscure philosophical threat (like divine wrath). Especially when ‘sins’ have proven themselves not to be too dangerous – based on past experiences.
The way to fear G-d properly is to work the abstract concepts into your consciousness slowly gradually and persistently, until they become as real as another person standing before you.
Mahla, you’re back! I was worried that something happened to you. I agree with you on this point. We observant Jews care too much about what our frum neighbors think. I won’t mention the married chassidim who hit on me when I was single and they thought that I was not Jewish. I respect my neighbor who walks out on Shabbos holding his glove and bat. Before everyone tried to out chumra their friends and relatives, frum people rode the elevators when the doorman or housekeeper pressed the buttons. I have hopped a ride with non-Jews and exited at the floor closest to the one I needed. When I was able to do it, I climbed 26 flights to a friend’s apartment on Shabbos. How do people respond to the elevator at “Pesach Hotels” that stop on every floor, by elevator operator or by automation? I guess it does not count when you are out of time.
Shoshie, I’m sure someone with some knowledge of electronics could find an alternative or a heter for you.
Just tell the frummies to worry as much about child molesters in their community as elevator-riders, and you’re set.
What on earth does one have to do with the other?
Oh and this may come as a shock but frummies dont worry about elevator riders
Even if you’re not worried about molesters and you’re not worried about elevators, I can tell you something you REALLY ought to feel concerned about …. MOLESTERS IN ELEVATORS.
I think your on to something, maybe NAIBLA could hold their meetings in elevators
No, I think puzzled is making a good point. That is a great solution. Don’t you see? If you aren’t as religious as you know you should be (which is basically everybody, but especially the “Mod-Ox-chip-on-the-shoulder” type ), instead of getting your act together and actually keeping the Torah like a Jew should, just accuse those who don’t distort the Torah to meet mini-skirt requirements, of widespread child molestation, and you’re set. Its brilliant!
It works like a charm. Its called the good ol’ Mod-Ox conscious clearance method. It’s been around since the 60′s, and has been helping Jews keep all their Torah violation from bothering them.
If, on a Friday night, a Jewish male walks through the turnstile in a subway station with a shiksa who just swiped her metrocard, and then hops on the subway, is he breaking shabbat? She is leading by the way, so as long as he is careful the dude does not even touch the turnstile, and presumably doesn’t touch her, in the process.
This scenario, I think, combines the above-mentioned shabbat elevator concept with that of the yehudi who is reading by the lamp which the goy turned on for himself.
I realize there may be other complications, such as distance traveled, carrying if the train leaves the eruv, fraternizing with said shiksa, etc. Lets stick to the main idea, boarding the subway without paying on shabbat, or even coming in contact with the turnstile.
Just to be clear, he is walking in with her in the same rotation of the turnstile as she is, she is not swiping twice, she is not paying for him.
Two people on one swipe? So then he is stealing on Shabbos. Oy vey.
Yes, a true Ben Sorer U’Moreh who treats the MTA like Costco.
In Israel there are elevators that stop on every floor. No problems of amira l’akum there
Its not (or at least not JUST) that people don’t fear God as much as they fear their neighbors.
Its that in their heart or hearts, they don’t believe that God cares about this sort of thing as much as their neighbors do (especially when we are talking about halachot that are clearly a matter of interpretation, as opposed to going out and eating a pork sandwich while wearing your linen-and-wool suit). And I’m not sure they are wrong.
PS I always find it amusing when people diss MO Jews (as Yankel just did) in exactly the same way that MO Jews diss Conservatives.
Bizarre. I didn’t think any Orthodox people took the elevator on Shabbos.
it’d be the same thing as using any other kind of electricity. If you can hit the button, I guess you can use your computer and turn the lights on and off.
IOW, not Orthodox