Frumster has a pretty good list of labels to stereotype the people on their site, so I decided to throw in my own two cents and give you folks the real definition. Sure it’s negative, cynical, but it’s fun and true, so why not?
Modern Orthodox Liberal
These tend to be individuals who are Shabbat and Kosher observant, but have a more “relaxed” or “open” approach to Halacha, sometimes accepting leniencies that are not accepted by those who espouse strict adherence to the dictates of the Halacha. Such individuals may, or may not be involved in regular and consistent Torah learning or prayer, although the general tendency is to be more “relaxed” in these areas as well. A commonality amongst this group is that they are open to secular activities such as bars, clubs, and movies.
The real definition: These people tend to stay single later, get better jobs and care less about practicing orthodoxy and more about fitting into a certian type of community and are willing to call themselves orthodox even if they aren’t. The women tend to wear pants, tank tops and clothing considered immodest by all halachic authorities. The men tend to wear baseball caps instead of yarmulkes if they cover their heads at all, rarely wear tzitzit and sometimes shave with a razor. Even though many of them live in Manhattan, they find it a drag to keep kosher and so they eat dairy out, on vacation many of the basic halachos of shabbos can be broken because it’s vacation, swimming, showers and carrying all go without much care. Many of these people tend to support bigger roles for women in Judaism, even though many of the women themselves aren’t strict with the laws they are commanded to keep. These people tend to practice their brand of new school orthodoxy from a social rather than a strict perspective. Almost everyone in this category grew up in middle to upper middle class homes in white suburban areas, they attended pricey zionistic camps, went on family vacations and almost all of them became more religious after graduating their picture perfect coed “yeshiva” high schools.
Modern Orthodox Machmir
These tend to be individuals who strive to maintain a lifestyle according to the rules and guidelines of Halacha (Jewish law); often this is reflected in greater involvement in daily Torah learning and prayer. However, they are modern in the sense that they are not “Yeshivish” (see the next category) and readily engage in the secular world while leading an Orthodox observant life.
The real definition: These people tend to belong to a NCSY, Yeshiva University, Stern College sort of adulthood. They try to speak with more religious accents, love kumzitses where the women sing along (only in unison of course) and get boring jobs as accountants, lawyers and marketing people. Rarely do these people do anything extreme, except for the 3 weeks after their year to Israel trip when they were so “shtark”. The girls are the types that brag about shomer negiah until they are in a relationship where their idesa of keeping the laws of yichud is to make out in the living room with the front door to their Bennet Avenue apartment left open. These people want to live the yeshivish life, or at least they think so, but don’t agree with their lifestyle so they don’t live it. Women like to give divrei torah at the table, come to shul on Friday night and everyone has no problem with them singing in public – as long as it’s in unison.
Yeshivish Modern
These tend to be individuals who identify more strongly with the Yeshivish-black-hat community, but feel that working in society is an essential part of their Judaism. Such individuals strive to embrace a structured Torah lifestyle with a professional secular career. Identification with a “Yeshivish” outlook can reflect itself in dress, which Rabbi one follows, and the Torah institutions that one attends or supports.
The real definition: This category was made up by modern orthodox people who like to fantasize that a yeshivish person would ever call themselves modern. Modern orthodoxy is evil according to the yeshivish world and many people may call others a bit “modernishe” they themselves look at it as a negative connotation. These people tend to allow their 13 year old daughters to stay at the table when buchrim come for a meal, their kids grew up watching pg rated movies and were allowed to wear shorts during the summer. Some of these families even have TV’s, yet all of the kids get black hats at their bar mitzvahs, the father of the house wears his hat to shul, while the kids wear their hats until the age of 16 or so. The girls in this category may go to a school other than Touro or Queens college, but rarely would it be away. Many of the girls in this category consider themselves to be open minded due to a summer spent as a pioneers counselor at Sternberg or the one time they went snowboarding and wore pants under their denim skirt. There are also modern orthodox black hat people that may be thrown into this category, because when it comes down to it, everything in shidduchim is about dress code.
Yeshivish Black Hat
With these individuals, Torah learning, prayer, and careful adherence to fulfillment of Mitzvos are core elements to a life of intensive religious commitment and spiritual growth. Strict and unbending loyalty to Halacha is seen as normative. Generally, an avoidance of the secular world is encouraged, and barriers are seen as critical to protecting against secular influences.
The real definition: According to the frum community these people are closed minded, since whenever they refer to someone as open minded, it’s because they are modern orthodox. These people tend to support the yeshiva lifestyle which means finding a wife from a wealthy family who can support the son in-law in kollel, until he decides to go into business (selling insurance, working at B & H or going into family business) or become a very low payed rebbe of grade school kids in Lakewood. If you are online dating and in this category, there is something wrong with you, you are either an alter bachur (over 24, unless chofetz chaim guy) or an older girl over the spinster age of 22. If you are younger than that, you are a little rebellious and not really yeshivish black hat. The girls all just want a normal guy with good midos and the guys want the same, just add the cash.
Hassidish
Such individuals embrace a Hasidic philosophy, which includes a commitment to the emotional/spiritual element of Torah observance. This can be reflected in an orientation in which additional emphasis is placed on prayer and fulfillment of Mitzvos with religious fervor and passion. Usually, there is a distinctive mode of Chassidic dress, which can vary according to the particular affiliation (e.g. Breslov, Ger, Lubavitch (Chabad), Satmar etc). Often, an individual follows and professes allegiance to a particular spiritual guide (Rebbe).
The real definition: These people tend to support a lifestyle akin to 17th century Poland, minus the lack of luxuries. On the frumster, 99% of the people in this category are chabad, since every other chassidish person looking for love on the internet is usually browsing craigslist, shaindy or one of the other sites where they can find an NSA shidduch. If you happen to be Satmar and are on Frumster, you must be a baal teshuva, ex-chossid or old.
Carlebachian
These are individuals who are Shabbat and Kosher observant and tend to embrace a more spiritual, and relaxed observant lifestyle. This observant outlook emanates from followers of the late Rabbi Shlomo Carlbach who was an inspiration to many unaffiliated Jews in the 60′s and 70′s and who were drawn towards greater observance by a Rabbi who embraced a message of Torah, love of the Jewish people, and Israel, expressed through his own musicality.
The real definition: A bunch of hippies that think singing and dancing around the bimah once a week after lecha dodi is what God had in mind when he gave the torah. These people are all so spiritual man, but that may be because they are always high. These people can also be called Chabrakook – Chabad/Bresslov/Kook.
Shomer Mitzvot
This category was created out of a demand for a no-name brand “Orthodox” category. Individuals who choose this category generally do not believe in labels or categorization.
The real definition: These people tend to be anti-conformist with a superiority complex. They think they are past the labels and above the rest of the world by proclaiming such lame phrases as “labels are for clothing” and “post denominational” or the one I invented “Avant-garde orthodoxy” I put myself in this category by the way.
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{ 69 comments… read them below or add one }
First comment!
Nice blog
I fall under the category of Modern orthodox liberal, not the real definition though. I am not strict when it comes to halacha and I go to bars and clubs, but I keep shabbas, kosher, I wear a hat all the time to cover my head, and I put tefilin on everyday. I just love the other world also and maybe clubs and bars are not the best thing I think the non Jewish world has a lot to offer, and contrast to what your Rebbe tells you there are plenty of decent non jews out there.
lol. I put myself under Femidox, but I don’t know what the “dox” part is for yet. I put myself somewhere between MO Liberal and MO Machmir – MO Libmir? MO Macheral? Just plain ol’ MO? My philosophy doesn’t fit anywhere.
What about “Ashkenazi with a Sephardi hashkafic outlook minus the middle eastern cultural influences”?
MOL!! HELL YEA!!!! Hahaha except the rich part…lol.
Alas, still no category for me.. Just “Jewish”…
what about the “black hat chics” denomination? the people who are part of the yeshivish black hat society, yet they dont give a shit about it, and just outwardly do it anyway, while their girls are out giving head to every 5th guy who crosses their path, the guys are out getting the head, and the parents are– well kinda delusional and think that their chanies and yaakovs are actually out doing chessed or in the park with friends.
then the whole chabad thing. theirs a few of those types as well. i recently wrote on these 2 types. in a post called flatbush vs chabad- my observations. maybe they’re subcategories…
The Modern Orthodox Liberal made me LOL.
Nice!
I’m Yeshivish Black Hat but also an atheist. Where do I fit in?
How do those two co- exist is that a joke or something.
boruch – sometimes I wish I was
How does that work like a Yeshivish Athiest I’ve never heard of such a thing. Do you like not believe in the religion, and just go threw the notions so your parents won’t get upset or something. Wow that must put you in a bad position and it must make you pissed off a lot I could only imagine my man. My advice to you is try to find a healthy balance between both worlds, and do the things that make sense to you not because other people are telling you to do it, but because you believe in it. I have trouble with the religion all the time but for some reason I still keep to some of the things, and hold to some of my values.
hello.. he’s “orthoprax” a category Frumster should be including…
It’s no joke.
The Yeshivish world is what he knows. Its customs and rhythms were trained into him from childhood. They define what he wears, how he dresses, his routine, his language and everything else which tells a man what he is.
To make the outside match the inside would risk everything. He would probably lose his wife and might never see his children again. If his family is devout they would cut him out completely and treat him as one of the dead. He might well lose his job, his home and all his childhood friends.
All he has to do is conceal his heart from the outside world. We all do when we resist an impulse or smile and go along to get along. Even Believers don’t believe every instant. His burden is simply greater than most.
Maybe his doubts will fade.
Maybe he will maintain the facade for the rest of his life.
Maybe integrity will force the inner and outer into harmony.
It’s a cruel dilemma and no easier for being common.
There are organizations which provide support from people who have been in this situation. The only ones with which I’m at all familiar are Chulent in New York and the Unpious.com blog.
Believe it or not, A Nuran
Most frum families will not utterly cut you off if you aren’t frum. I have several friends/acquaintances who’ve gone totally off the derech, one of whom actually converted to Roman Catholicism (for details see daat hedyot’s better know a kofer “Sara”) all of whom have contact with their families however strained. “Sara”‘s account on the one person who tried to keep in touch with her in order to do kiruv however is untrue. I was that person and I don’t do kiruv.
I absolutely understand and agree. I’m talking about the fears rather than the reality.
ur undercover otd
gehenom, ask Kissmeimshomer to save you a seat next to her
@anonymous: I’m a guy. Very much so.
Really? Are you saying that if you could kill people and get away with it, you would?
Common myth that atheist don’t have morals. But I ask you, if morality wasn’t a human endeavor, why are things that the Torah finds moral (discrimination against people with disabilities, genocide, selling a young girl as a slave) no longer the case? In any event, see http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/p/AtheistsMorals.htm
Why do people seem to think being an athiest means u believe human life is valueless?? I’m not an athiest but this dude Jewish Philosopher, if he can be called that, he seemed to think i was, and asked me in response to my saying I was affected by my cousins illness,
“My question would be, if you are an atheist, then you believe that a human being is merely a worthless, soulless bag of chemicals. If that is the case, why should anyone’s illness upset you?”
So @”mamazers anyone”, get an education.
forgot to leave my name . that was me addressing “MAMZERS ANYONE”
No, I believe you have him confused with the religious true believers who say precisely that about Amalekites.
By the way, those kinds of remarks tell me more about the mindset of the speaker than anything else. It tells me that you would be a murderer if not for the God-concept; that you really want to murder, and the only reason you don’t is you’re afraid of punishment. In my mind, this makes you pretty dangerous.
Atheists often value human life much more than do the religious.
A religious person believes that the Elect (whichever Elect) are all going to the Good Place where they will be happy for eternity. The Infidel Scum (whichever Infidel Scum) to the Bad Place where they are tortured forever. In either case death isn’t permanent, especially for People Just Like Me.
An atheist believes that there is no God, no Heaven, no Hell. Nobody has more than a handful of years, and that’s it. So ending a life isn’t blip in a wonderful eternity. It’s the END. Killing is much more permanent and horrible than it is for the believer.
UGH, when I think “Elect” I think Calvinism, and there’s no Christian ideology that horrifies my sense of fair justice more than Calvinist, except perhaps hyper-Calvinism. :^(
I recently saw a shirt promoting the five-point Calvinist mnemonic T.U.L.I.P. … (Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistable grace and Perseverance of the saints).
The shirt has a tulip on it and read “Flower Child.” :^O WTF?! I could just hear the denizens of Haight-Ashbury spinning in their graves. :^(
I really wish someone had horsewhipped Jean Cauvin and said “Sorry, I’m utterly depraved and was pre-destined by God Himself to do this to you. But since I’m one of the Elect I’ve been forgiven.”
“Atheists often value human life much more than do the religious.”
Data? Atheist governments such as N. Korea, the former Soviet Union, and China have perpetrated lots of human rights abuses, and have killed many people.
I can see your argument translating into atheists fearing death more, but not necessarily honoring the civil liberties of others more than those who believe in God.
I’m not saying atheists are better than religious people or vice versa. The capacity for real evil is present in everyone. So is the ability to rationalize our worst impulses. Religious flavor doesn’t seem to make a difference. Your tired old contention is easily demolished.
The horrible genocides against the aboriginal populations of North and South America were carried out by Christian countries and with Christian justification. So was the abominable and unspeakable slave trade in the Americas which included a reasonable number of Jewish perpetrators.
The centuries of persecution against Jews, Cathars, Waldensians, Albigensians, Catholics, Huguenots and so on were religiously based. So was the horror of the Crusades.
The mass murders of the Aztec were religious.
Likewise the somewhat smaller ones of the Mayans.
So was the genocide against Amalek and various Canaanite nations. And if you say “But, but, but Hashem told us to!” seek treatment for life-threatening irony deficiency.
The UK is an officially Christian nation with an Established Church. The supposed reverence for human life didn’t cause it to life a finger to help its Irish subjects during the Potato Famine or stop Lord Jeffrey Amherst from using or planning to use (the documentation is equivocal) smallpox.
The truly unbelievable horrors of the Great War were perpetrated by the UK, Russia, Germany, Austro-Hungary, France and the US with a few others involved. All except France and the United States were regimes with governments that were explicitly tied to religion.
The reason the Sikhs are no longer pacifist is directly related to the religious nature of India and the Moghul Empire, both of whom tried to exterminate them.
Up until the later 20th century the biggest single verified mass killing in Chinese history was the Taiping Rebellion which claimed at least 20 million lives over 14 years. It was based, you guessed it, on a religious sect which tried to institute its brand of the One True Faith on everyone. (factoid: General Tso whom the chicken dish is named after was instrumental in putting it down)
And the biggie, the National Socialist German Workers’ Party NSDAP, was a joined at the hip to religion. Himmler and a few others were had some bizarre Germanic mythology. Still religious, just weird Romantic-revival-revisionist stuff. But the Party and Dolf himself were strong supporters of the Church and vice versa. They instituted tax-based tithing and put Gott mit uns on the Army’s belt buckles. The Catholic and Protestant churches backed the Naz to the hilt.
Where do I fit in?
Caught between the hammer of freedom and the anvil of security. Until you figure out which one you value more you’ll be unhappy.
Your just confused Eli. Speak to Rabbi Wallerstein. He’ll set you straight.
He’s not “just confused”. The problem is very real, and he knows exactly what it is. A skilled and learned rabbi might be able to push him towards belief. It’s certainly not guaranteed even with an all-out effort. The risks of ostracism and the loss of family and community if the treatment is not successful are very real.
Some MO Machmir people actually are shomer negia.
What does “giving out head” mean?
Giving head? Google it. I don’t wanna make this site X rated. So far it can still get an R.
It means “oral s*x done on a man”.
Or on a woman
Since we’re on the subject, is semen kosher?
I’ve heard it that humans aren’t animals in the Torah sense, thus we have babies drinking breastmilk (it’s pareve). From what I can tell, all that’s keeping placenta-eating from being kosher is that it’s considered disgusting in Western culture. Guzzling semen is probably kosher if you were there to verify it came out of a human.
Some a$$hole in college once asked me if I could still blow him if he dipped his di*k in milk. I told him Jews weren’t allowed to eat shrimp.
LOL! Ew…
Yeah, at least he never bothered me again after that!
What rock do these people crawl out from under, and how can we crush the rock?
Zzzzzzzziiiinnnnnggggg!!!!
and I thought you were a guy this whole time – unless…
Heshy,
Shim is just a shortened version of a longer woman’s name. Chances are you haven’t heard of it, but you could ask Tova. She knows me. My mom named me from that fakakte Alfred Kolatch name book which was published in the forties! So no I’m not a Shimon.
It’s permissible as long as the woman swallows. Otherwise it’s considered spilling the seed.
Wait, why is it okay if you waste/spill the seed in a woman’s mouth? Or was that just a joke?
I wear a dark blue hat to shul. I have briskers. I keep only my two front zizit out
(all four is too sloppy) I wear a gotee. I have a yiddish accent. I only eat pas
yisroel. I will eat cholov stam if i must. I only go to the mikvah on erev yomim
tovim. I dont go to bars. I dont smoke. I gamble. I am shomer nigeah. I am
remarried. I am confused. What am I?
Pretty religious i’d say. I was shomer for a while when I was in Israel, but after a while I dropped it. I also didn’t go to bars or clubs for a while, then I cam back to America turned 21 2 months later and I started getting into the whole scene. I could imagine how hard it is being divorced. my brother was married for 9 years has twins, he was a breslover chasid. learned in Yeshiva for 3 years and is very knowledgeable in Toarah and gemorah. After his wife cheated on him with his best friend and now she currently goes out with him, he prety much droppeed everything except for shabbas and kashrus.
That’s so sad. I have never heard of a married chassidish woman doing such a thing. Was this woman raised frum?
yep and went to beis yaakov as well.
blue hat+briskers = harry
gotee+accent= just came off the boat from somewhere far away
dont go to bars + yes gamble = just plain strange
shomer negia+ remarried= wow so ur wife doesnt get any…?!
you dont seem to write about Carlbachers they are really cool it used to be a big movment with carlbach style shabbatons etc
Re:ChaBraKook
I believe the correct nomenclature is Chabakuk (like the book in Trei Assar). I’ve heard some extend the definition to include “Chabad, Breslov, Kook, Carlebach, and Kahane.”
Aren’t Kahane and Carlebach diametrically opposed to one another? I personally identify with Kahane more but I love going to the Carlebach shul on Simchat Torah.
Also, if you want to see the definition of fugly, look at the Carlebachian girls on frumster.
I’m a secular Jew. And I have not come across a greater more legitimate rabbi, than the late Rabbi Kahane.
Kahane is not “diametrically opposed to Carlebach” they both had a sincere love for jews.
-Kahane unlike most Rabbis takes a no bullshit realist approach. While carlebach spent most of his time smoking herb.
Kahane Tzadak!
Kevin
I could not agree with you more on Rav Kahane hy”d. I always thought Carelebach was more of a Peace Now kind of guy in regards to Israel. Am I wrong?
i would be in the convenientdox catagory
I’m glad that SawYouAtSinai has a “middle of the road” Orthodox category. It allows for flexibility, and expands my dating pool to include people on the liberal left and machmir right.
Plus, this category is less ambiguous-sounding than Frumster’s “shomer mitzvot.”
It must be a challenge for Heshy to assign stereotypes to ambiguity.
Modern Orthodox Liberal
According to your description sound like they are ,more reform than orthodox, so why don’t you just label them ” machmir reform”?
Reform don’t keep any of those mitzvot. Conservative is what you’re thinking of. I guess Conservadox would probably be a good way of describing Modern Orthodox Liberal.
The slang way of referring to a modern yeshivish dude amongst yeshiva guys (like myself) is “Harry”. In other words a Harry is someone who in essence is really modern orthodox but flipped out after Israel and now tries to be yeshivish. Another example of a Harry would be a Chofetz Chaim guy with his blue shirt and tzitzis out.
Don’t get me started on the topic of harrys.
The title “harry” is used even on a guy who is wearing the whole getup and is keeping everything seriously, but he still says “oe” instead of “oi”, or wears the trademark backpack, or thinks manners are important – thus completely removing him from the categorie of “good frum orthodox Jew” and placing him in the “means well but just doesn’t get it” group.
The differentiation is purely cultural, and is not a reflection of any halacha, minhag, or even any “farvorfineh inyan”. (Ironically, this differentiation is a living contradiction to the entire ultra-o philosophy, yet every yeshiva guy can pick out a harry out from a mile away).
I think the whole harry thing was invented to maintain the pride of the ‘good’ bochurim who were finding themselves challenged by these new ‘baalei teshuva’ or ‘mod-ox guys who flipped’ because these people were quite often – far more serious then themselves.
NOTE: The concept of harrys being ‘less’ or ‘inferior’ exists only in the less serious yeshiva guys. Those who really mean it, don’t care what color your shirt is as long as your a good Jew.
it’s funny because it’s true
What am I if I spent my time not as a pioneers counselor at Sternberg, but as an archery/slingshot instructor there?