I get messages on facebook all of the time that tell me one of my mutual friends with that person is a missionary and I ask them, what is the big deal? I just don’t get what all the fuss over missionaries is about. Are these Jews so shaky in their faith that they are scared that some bible thumping Christians are going to convince them to change their faith on Facebook of all places?
While I am on the subject, I don’t really have a problem with Jews for Jesus. Let them do their thing — but people go nuts. I have heard so many conversations that are these diatribes about the evils of Jews for Jesus and missionaries. Once again I must ask — is your faith that shaky that you’re worried about losing Orthodox Jews to another religion? Or maybe you’re worried about your fellow non-religious Jews? It seems odd that the same people worrying about our non-religious brothers and sisters are the ones pushing them away in the first place.
Missionaries always
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{ 138 comments… read them below or add one }
I don’t think the same people concerned with J4J are the ones pushing unaffiliated Jews away. I think your argument is flawed.
Meanwhile, kiruv folks are quick to imitate the dishonest tactics of missionaries – maybe that’s the problem, they see them as competition.
That’s your opinion. The kiruv organizations I’ve come across have been honest and up-front with me. I know that some disaffected Jews love to bash kiruv organizations. But for every OTD Jew, there is a BT to take their place, thanks to the kiruv orgs.
You seriously think the BT inflow to the Orthodox world meets the OTD outflow?
I do. But I’d love to see stats on that.
I’d love to see the statistics on that, too. But first, you would have to frame the terms “BT” and “OTD” very precisely, so that everyone would know what the numbers you got represented.
I think its the underhanded way that j4j do their “kiruv” that pisses ppl off
What do you mean by “underhanded”? It’d be one thing if this organization was calling itself “Jews for Moshiach” and you had to dig around to find out they were stumping for Christianity, but they’re calling themselves “Jews for Jesus” for goodness’ sake.
(I had actually heard of this organization before reading Heshy’s blog, but never encountered them, and assumed they were some type of Torah-observant Christian sect.)
Now yer talk out your ass Heshy.
The biggest problem with K4K (Kikes for Kriste) is their dishonesty. They put on the trappings of Judaism. But it’s all a ploy to get you to completely reject everything Jewish and accept a very American version of Evangelical Protestantism. Then they tell shameless lies about what’s in Tanakh and Talmud in order to gull the ignorant and vulnerable.
Missionaries in general? Screw ‘em. They’re like spiritual used car salesmen who will do anything to manipulate you into joining their MLM club. At least Amway will actually sell you chewing gum and floor cleaner.
oh so now it’s ok to call someone a kike if they aren’t OUR people? No self respecting jew would use that word to describe anyone, you’re a disgusting person.
Ok weirdo
And for someone so intelligent you you have a serious irony deficiency. But since you need it spelled out clearly…
The use of the word “Kike” and the deliberate misspelling “Kriste” are intended to heap scorn and vilification on Jews for Jesus. It is used in the same way people of African descent in the US employ terms like “House Nigger”. This highlights the truly anti-Semitic agenda of the group by employing a word which more accurately describes their attitude towards Jews and anything Jewish.
I read most of them aren’t even jewish, they weren’t born or brought up jewish, they are just christians playing dress up. I find it hard to believe they’ve ever successully converted anyone, they are too ridiculous. In fact i don’t know anybody who ever converted to christianity, i think it is just rumours.
To the first “anonymous” , you said “I don’t think the same people concerned with J4J are the ones pushing unaffiliated Jews away”. yYou are WRONG. The very people who are concerned with J4J are pushing the unaffiliated away. This posting is ABSOLUTELY correct.
what makes you say that? do you have any proof for that or are you being just as prejudiced as those who you castigate? as an orthodox with respect for all (and that doesn’t mean i agree with their views, i just don’t throw them out of the window as people simply on their affiliation) i can tell you that there are plenty of people out there who are concerned about what j4j are doing purely out of concern for jews of all stripes (have you ever heard of tovia singer?). please don’t tar all frum people with the same brush, there of plenty of us who really care.
I really never concerned myself with the Christian missionary movement until I made Aliyah to Israel. Then, I was bombarded at every turn. Seems they prey on the vulnerable struggling to make the transition to life in the Middle East. I have met way too many Olim who lied on their applications and are avidly practicing Christin tenets…many behind closed doors at your local Absorption Center. Guess the “every three months leave the country” thing is inconvenient for them.
Soundlike chabad in America
Gee, in 1492 Jews had to pretend to be Christian to stay in Spain. Then they practiced their Judaism behind closed doors. We call those people “persecuted.” So I guess it’s OK to have a country that only allows in immigrants of one religion and everybody else has to lie to get in?
Those situations have nothing in common! In Spain the Jews were already living there, and the government tried to forcibly convert them or make them leave. In Israel anyone can become a citizen and live there, Jewish immigrants get citizenship automatically, but non-Jewish immigrants can get citizenship by going through a process that’s not that different than getting citizenship in the United States.
What do you mean “they were already living there?” Spain was a Catholic country. Jews moved into the country. They were not Spaniards, they were foreigners, but they were allowed entry into the counry. At some point the Church became concerned about the large population of non-Christians in the country and told the Jews they would have to convert or leave. A large number pretended to convert, but remained secretly Jews.
You are completely wrong that “non-Jewish immigrants can get [Israeli] citizenship by going through a process that’s not diferrent than getting citizenship in the United States.” It is extremely difficult not to say impossible for a non-Jew to become a citizen. The government itself will tell you that Israel is a “Jewish state” meaning that it exists for the purpose of providing a refuge and homeland for Jews. They have no intention of allowing a significant immigration of non-Jews into the country because it would tip the non-Jewish demographics in the wrong direction.
If you don’t believe me, call up the Israeli consulate. Tell them you’re a non-Jew interested in moving to Israel and becoming a citizen. Ask them what you have to do to become one. They’ll tell you to stay home. If you ARE a non-Jew living in Israel (e.g., a Russian) you’d best pretend to be one.
Spain was a Muslim country and Jews had been living there for centuries. Then in 1492 the Catholics conquered southern Spain and expelled all the Jews and Muslims who wouldn’t convert.
Yes, it’s difficult for a non-Jew to become a citizen in Israel. It’s difficult for someone who isn’t of Japanese descent to become a citizen of Japan, it’s difficult for someone who isn’t of Armenian descent to become a citizen of Armenia. Israel has strict immigration policies like many other countries. Those situations have nothing whatsoever in common with the Spanish inquisition.
Anonymous,
You’re wrong, the Spanish Jews had lived there at least from the time of the Romans. There were Jews living in what is now Spain way before the first Christians (and later Muslims) arrived.
I’m sorry, that kind of stuff IS a big deal, Hesh.
When you befriend a Missionary (especially a J4J), it gives their cause credence. Whether or not you are confident enough in your religion to be immune, THERE IS NO WAY YOU SHOULD EVER HELP THEM WITH THEIR JOB. Assuming, of course, that you don’t believe in their cause, how would you feel if someone you know was introduced to them and trusted them because of their association with you?
If the missionary successfully brainwashes one of your friends, it would be ON YOUR HEAD. If that’s something you’d be ok with, that’s another story.
But personally, I wouldn’t let such a person into my social circles. No good can come from it.
I’m not so sure that the very people concerned with J4J are the people pushing them away- if so that is very sad indeed. But since when do 2 wrongs make a right?
I guess I don’t have to deal with these people, but I have spoken to em and since I have struggle with my own faith – I have no reason to look at an evebn shakier religion
I don’t think Heshy actually said he was FRIENDS with a missionary at any point, but even if he WAS personally friends with a missionary, how would that further the missionary’s cause? In my mind the missionary would have LESS credibility.
If I saw a Jew for Jesus walking around with a yarmulke-wearing Jew friend, and the yarmulke-wearing Jew friend was all like “Yeah, Bob here’s my good friend, but despite our friendship I am in complete disagreement with his convictions,” my reaction would be “Whoa, this missionary’s message can’t be that compelling. Homeboy can’t even convince his own friend.”
When I get approached by J 4 J I tell em that I think Jesus was a dope smoking hippie who’s followers were all tripping on something real good day and the urban legend developed into a religion based on a phony revelation kind of like Islam did, the only thing in I tell them that intrigue me – is what kind of sandals they wore and where they got their hallucinogens from?
I whole-heartedly agree. The fear that we harbor towards other religions, including hostility towards missionaries, avoidance of churches and temples, and even of symbolic artifacts such as crufixes and statues, only makes them bigger and more powerful in our minds than they really are.
For all you Harry Potter fans out there, its kind of like calling Lord Voldemort “He Who Must Not Be Named”. Making a name un-utterable or a place non-approachable only gives it more power.
If you visit a Hindu temple because you want to check out the architecture, a beatiful tourist site is all it will be. If you want to attend your work colleague’s wedding in a church, a wedding venue is all it will be. If you just let guys bearing Jews for Jesus pamphlets and eerie smiles be, J for J nutters is all they will be. Fearing and avoiding them only shows that they are capable of influencing you in the time it takes to smile at them or to nod ‘good morning’.
really? you find nothing wrong with j4j? its sad that j4j is as successful as they are, its even sadder that you dont find anything wrong with it. therefore i give you a beracha heshy, may all your children end up being j4j. i mean let them just “do their thing”. really probably one of the dumbest posts you have ever put up. maybe its cause your trying to be controversial so that more people will go on to your site. wtvr, you just lost one visitor to your site. i have utterly lost all respect for you.
Seriouslyn, do you really respect Heshy? He doesn’t even have a doctorate in this stuff.
I’m surpirsed you have any respect for me whatsoever, I’m the guy who thinks the Flotilla and Rabbis molesting little yeshiva kids are funny things to talk about.
Christians won’t be around much longer. Enjoy them now, while they are friendly. Islam is taking the lead in popularity and soon there will be no Christians anywhere. Muslims are ok usually, but sometimes their missionaries aren’t as friendly.
Twaddle, wombat offal, horse manure and splinters.
Reasonable, civilized, mainline Christianity is on the decline. A militant, charismatic extremist Christianity is on the rise in the Americas, Africa and Asia. The Catholic Church is returning to a harder traditional line and increasing its missionary activity very effectively in the developing world. Protestantism has been moving towards Pentecostalism and other extreme forms and gaining plenty of converts.
By being their friend, you give more power to their tactic of surrounding themselves in Jewishness to make Jews feel comfortable converting to their religion. They are using you, but you don’t realize it.
Missionaries are a major problem especially because many times they target Jews. I once was on that chat roulette and this missionary started doing his spiel, he’s one of those Witnesses who normally goes door to door. Well he said that he wasn’t planning on missionizing that night but he said he was targeting me because I’m Jewish (I had been at a banquet earlier and was wearing a suit and hat so apparently that made me look frum?). Well first he tried to trick me into blaspheming and then he started quoting passages out of context that were supposedly about he moshiach. It didn’t have any impact on me but for those who may not be as knowledgeable it could possibly have.
Wow, you got a missionary on Chat Roulette? All I got were men showing me their genitals. You’re lucky.
I hear only 14% of chat roulette is penis guys
There’s no way that could be true. I saw so much dong on that site that I temporarily became a lesbian.
I can assure you that it’s more like 86%
Well what can you expect – it’s like chat rooms all over again – everyone expects to get some no one does
How many of them were missionaries who wanted to show you their bits?
That’s a good question. I may have been witnessing Yankin’ It for Yeshua.
Yankin’ It for Yeshua, ha ha ha! That was AWESOME Julie! ;^D
hahahaha. Thank you. Your comment made my day
“Are these Jews so shaky in their faith”
Unfortunately, many Jews (if not most) are shaky in their faith.
“Let them do their thing”
How can you associate with people whose goal in life is antithetical to everything you believe in?
Everyone is influenced by their surroundings.
Unless this is satire, this article reveals a lot about the extent of your “open mindedness” and at the very least shows your misguidedness. Or I can be very wrong and this article reveals your honesty – as long as you can fully defend your position.
Nah I’m just here to push people’s buttons – I couldn’t care less really
It’s not the “shaky in your faith” thing, but just how it smacks of privilege and rudeness. Especially in America, which nearly 80% Christian already. Jews make up less than 1% of the entire population.
I actually blogged a bit about it awhile ago: http://juliesandburg.com/blog/2009/12/christian-privilege-in-america-2/
Some examples of Christian privilege:
- Christianity and its’ religious holidays are so completely “normal” that they often appear to no longer have any religious significance.
- Christians can talk about their religion, even proselytize, and will usually be regarded as “sharing the word,” instead of imposing their ideas upon others or distributing “propaganda.”
- The birth of Christianity’s central figure is used as the major point of reference for our calendaring system (B.C. and A.D.).
- Christians can share their holiday greetings without being fully conscious of how it may impact those who do not celebrate the same holidays. They can also be sure that people are knowledgeable about their religious holidays and will greet them with the appropriate holiday greeting (e.g., Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, etc.).
- Christians probably do not need to learn the religious or spiritual customs of others, and they are likely not penalized for not knowing them.
Smacks of privilege and rudeness?! Did you feel that way when you were a practicing Catholic? Pffft.
I think your naivety comes from the fact you live in the Midwest and not in NY so it’s easier to hate on Christianity because you’re not as exposed to other movements of Judaism, their communities, etc. Or maybe because you’re a ger, you feel the need to be down on Christianity in order to increase your interest in Judaism. You could just accept the fact that most Christians have zero knowledge of Judaism (and vice versa) yet practice a very watered down version of it.
Your comment and examples are so flawed that all I can do is encourage you to visit NY and enter a shul in the Satmar area of Williamsburg or maybe New Square. Feel free to wear denim and not cover your knees and elbows. They’re super OK with that.
My blog entry’s focus is that privilege is sedom acknowledged and usually denied. Thanks for proving the point.
You’re being very one-sided and ignorantly lumping the Hallmark versions of Christian holidays with all Christians despite the various movements, beliefs, customs, etc., and not all of them follow the same calendar.
Some of those points you make could easily apply to Judaism or Israel but apparently, you just don’t want to see that.
The majority of the FF were Christian and those which became Deist started out as Christians and didn’t pull their beliefs out of thin air. Go back to *your* books.
Is it a privilege? Sure, because of the majority but it’s not like people are going around thinking, “I’m so privileged!” And rude? Girl, you need to get out more.
BTW, are you paying for your conversion?
“You’re being very one-sided and ignorantly lumping the Hallmark versions of Christian holidays with all Christians despite the various movements, beliefs, customs, etc., and not all of them follow the same calendar.”
She never claimed that they do.
“Some of those points you make could easily apply to Judaism or Israel but apparently, you just don’t want to see that.”
Jewish privilege in Israel is neither a mitigating factor for the Christian sense of international entitlement, nor the Christian privilege in America, a country practically built on the idea of religious freedom. It’s even less so when we’re discussing an American organization with global aspirations bent on eradicating Judaism. Furthermore, your assumption that Julie is unable to detect Jewish privilege in Israel is just that, an assumption.
“The majority of the FF were Christian and those which became Deist started out as Christians and didn’t pull their beliefs out of thin air. Go back to *your* books.”
The whole concept of ‘freedom of religion’ makes that entirely irrelevant.
“Is it a privilege? Sure, because of the majority but it’s not like people are going around thinking, “I’m so privileged!’”
No, they don’t, and that’s sort of the point.
“And rude? Girl, you need to get out more.”
Nice to see that you didn’t forget the personal assaults this time either.
‘…neither a mitigating factor…’ was supposed to be ‘…a mitigating factor neither…’ and ‘the Christian privilege’ was supposed to be ‘Christian privilege’.
Nice job making a post void of any actual arguments, but filled to the brim with ad hominem attacks.
You might want to remember that your money says “IN GOD WE TRUST” and that the founding fathers were Christian. It could aid you in a quest for a logical conclusion as to why Christian holidays are mainstream. *wink*
That’s a myth. Furthermore, Deism is not the same as Christianity. You could really use some book-learnin’ in the realms of American history and sociology.
You might want to learn a little history before you go flapping your ignorant cake hole.
The prominent religious figures of the day blasted and damned the Constitutional Convention because it left Jesus and religion completely out of the fundamental law of the new nation. Sprinkling God into the law was standard practice even in countries which had an Established Church. The idea that the government derived its powers “from the consent of the governed” was radical and blasphemous in that day.
Ministers were severely under-represented among the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the framers of the Constitution. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and others were all on record with statements despising Christianity.
“In God We Trust” and “one nation under God” were glued on in the 1950s. The Knights of Columbus lobbied the White House furiously to get these added to the currency and the Pledge of Allegiance to – and I quote – “Show the Communists God is on our side.” President Eisenhower figured it was a low-calorie way of shoring up Catholic support threw them their little sop.
By the bye, the PoA was written by an atheistic socialist school teacher. As written God wasn’t mentioned, but “equality and fraternity” were. “Equality” was deemed too controversial because it might imply that women and *shudder* Negroes should be treated just like White Men.
There may be another reply which makes it through eventually. If this is a repeat, oh well.
The Constitution was roundly condemned by churchmen of the day such as the President of Yale because it didn’t mention God or Jesus. Even countries without Established Churches invoked God in their laws and legitimized themselves through Divine approval. The fact that our founding documents made no mention and said the government derives its powers “from the consent of the governmed” was an extremely radical step.
Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson and others were on record with statements excoriating Christianity.
“In God We Trust” only appeared on the currency during the 1950s. And that was an interesting piece of idiocy. The Knights of Columbus wanted to be seen as Doing Something about Communism. So they put on their silly little hats and furiously lobbied the White House to change the Pledge of Allegiance to include “Under God” and the money to carry the phrase “In God We Trust”. Eisenhower shored up his shaky support among Catholics by throwing them their silly little low-calorie sop.
And the PoA was written by a socialist atheist of a school teacher. It originally called for “equality” for all. But that was too controversial. It might imply that women and *shudder* bestial primitive Negroes should get the same treatment as White Men. Yes, that was what the critics said. So the offensive word was eliminated.
some converts only convert to judaism so they can lay claim to the holocaust and the status of persecuted victim, they are more tedious and annoying than missionaries. if you converted to being black or native american you would have a point
A. Nuran, thank you for flapping your ignorant cake hole. I’m assuming it’s a Bundt. The majority of the FF were Christian. I posted a link elsewhere. Find it. A few Deist FFs out of 55 does not make a majority, sweetie-honey-sugar-pie.
Why you’re bothered by an almost 80% Christian majority, the observed Christian holidays in a country founded by mostly Christians with a few ex-Christian Deists, and money with a phrase slapped on by a group with a Catholic/Christian background is beyond me because I think it all makes perfect sense and isn’t anything to b*tch about. If you don’t like 1%, then improve it and don’t forget to send in your census form, too.
I also agree with Anonymous below. I had a friend who came from an affluent family, was never abused, had supportive parents and went on to an Ivy League school. After converting to Judaism, she blogged a rant about the suffering “we” endured. It made me wonder if she converted for profoundly spiritual reasons or for the victim angle.
“privilege and rudeness”
Correction: “freedom of religion and expression”
B”H for it because without it, we wouldn’t have Mitzva Tanks, Chabad out with tefillin, candles, supplying non-Jews with the 7 Universal Law cards, asking if people are Jewish, gigantic Menorahs, holidays off from work, etc. Where I live, it’s considered privilege and rudeness by some, including some secular Jews.
Back to J4J missionaries. I’ve only run into them twice and they just handed out pamphlets, no hounding, seemed nice and seemingly had a nice grasp of ahavas yisroel. Anyway, I killed ‘em.
Killed ‘em with kindness! And then I kept walking.
R.E.
Nope, Rolling Eyes. You’re so in love with the mindless drone of “This is a Christian Nationa. Baaaa. This is a Christian Nation. Baaaa,” that you can’t actually read history or think critically. I demolished your two smug examples pretty thoroughly. But like the mindless sheep that you are, you ignore contrary evidence.
“Christianity and its’ religious holidays are so completely “normal” that they often appear to no longer have any religious significance.”
Right — Christian holidays are being Hallmarkized and McDonaldized. This is clearly a big privilege. Let’s do this to Judaism so that eventually the holidays will have no meaning whatsoever. It’s a great privilege.
“- Christians can talk about their religion, even proselytize, and will usually be regarded as “sharing the word,” instead of imposing their ideas upon others or distributing “propaganda.”
Umm…please give me some evidence that Jews cannot talk about their religion to others in America. I seem to remember a Chabad table set up in the quad when I went to college. They stopped people and asked them if they were Jewish. If no, they let them go. If yes, they started their schpiel.
“- The birth of Christianity’s central figure is used as the major point of reference for our calendaring system (B.C. and A.D.).”
Wow — how totally unfair. How about if you go out and convert the entire western world for 2,000 years and then we’ll all use the Jewish calender? I’ll bet those overprivileged Hindus in India are probably getting away with using a Hindu calender to boot!
“- Christians can share their holiday greetings without being fully conscious of how it may impact those who do not celebrate the same holidays. They can also be sure that people are knowledgeable about their religious holidays and will greet them with the appropriate holiday greeting (e.g., Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, etc.).”
Unless of coure they are folks like you who probably snarl when someone wishes you Merry Christmas.
“- Christians probably do not need to learn the religious or spiritual customs of others, and they are likely not penalized for not knowing them.”
Whereas Orthodox Jews won’t enter a church or utter the “J” word and spit on crosses in Jerusalem. My husband grew up in Israel and in school they made a different mark (can’t do it on the computer) instead of a + sign when doing math so they wouldn’t inadvertently make a cross. Obviously they were VERY knowledable and enlightened about other religions.
1. The perceived normality of Christian holidays is indeed a good example of Christian privilege. Do you even know what privilege means?
2. Well, do you think that Chabad are imposing their ideas upon others and/or spreading propaganda? I certainly do, but then again I believe that the same thing can and should be said about those obnoxious Christians who are trying to force their religion down everyone’s throats. Do you?
3. That’s your argument? The (often forced) conversion of the western world to Christianity justifies the preferation of one religion over others in a liberal democracy? Wow indeed.
4. That’s nothing but a juvenile personal assault.
5. Why should frum Jews enter churches or name other gods if that’s against their beliefs? And while spitting on other people’s property is wrong, avoiding a symbol isn’t. If you don’t understand why we might want to avoid crosses, then I advice you to grab a bloody history book and start reading (or not, but then you ought to stop the whining). And finally, they don’t need to be knowledgeable about Christianity, and you don’t need to knowledgeable about Judaism (and believe me, you’re not). You have a very flawed perception of the freedom of religion.
i don’t know about you but i only know of 2 christian holidays, easter and xmas and i have no idea what the different rituals and days of easter are about. christians have other holidays to celebrate different saints and that thing when they put ash on their head etc, i am happily oblivious it doesn’t inconvenience me at all. there’s only 1 day a year we can’t go to shops, it isn’t exactly the holocaust. holidays in israel are far more hassle!
Fuurther proof Heshy Fried does not value Judaism.
Amalek targeted the stragglers. J4j does the same thing.
Is there really the situation of Jews being ‘pushed away’? I thought that only happened to us Goys. As we approach the third of Tammuz it would be good to resolve to encourage all people to follow Torah. This will allow the messies to see the error of their ways.
Hesh,
To paraphrase the common aphorism, if you don’t have anything good/funny to post, don’t post anything at all.
It’s a natural phase of a blog’s life-cycle for the author to get writer’s block. It looks like your time has come. Refuah sheleima and don’t let the blog go to shit.
Did anyone notice today is 6/13/2010? 613, isn’t that interesting? Its like Pi day. We could call it Torah Day.
Rolling eyes- the Vast majority of the founding fathers where Diests not christians…
J4J- doesnt target Orth Judaism it targets non practicing jews, how can they appeal to someone that actually studies? They target elderly non scholorly jews- hence their largest group is in tampa- orlando Fl area. They are the worst. And here to me is the big problem, This is a final tactic of Goyim to convert us, they killed us walled us up expelled us and now they got the idea to look like us talk like us and try to dupe less minded jews.. they are a huge problem in Israel. To me the bigger problem is that to worship Yeshu is to worship a graven image or an Idol. We Are to eat pig intead of dieing- we are to break the shabbos instead of dieing, but we are to die rather than to worship another god. that is important. To say that orth jew are pushing these people away is truelly a misguided statement. The appeals of the goyisher lifestyle has pulled these people away or the parents not giving them a jewish education push most of these people away. not orth Judaism.
“Messianics” should not be legitamized by any jews. Al J4J or Messianic Alliance should feel the heavy weight of totally rejection by all mainstream Yiddishkeit. they should feel unwanted unaccepted they should feel like they no one in the jewish community. these people are like stray dogs or pigeons if you give them a little scrap of attention they will post it allover the web and everywhere that they are connected with so an so. I will not be suprized to see you on the cover of one of their newsletters left behind in the kosher section of the supermarket. Titled ” Major Orthodox Jewish Bogger comes to know Yeshua Ha Moshiach!”
FF: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
Missionaries DO target Orthodox Jews. A while back in Crown Heights, deceptive missionary “Jewish Bibles” were left around the area near 770.
1. If you saw my apartment, you’d realize how wrong you are about the Yeshua thing.
2. I simply disagree with lumping all Christians together just as much as a Satmar wouldn’t want to be lumped in with a Lubavitcher or Reform Jew, etc. By doing so and using disparaging generalizations, one is furthering misconceptions instead of understanding. Not all Christian movements proselytize or want you or anybody else to convert.
“The appeals of the goyisher lifestyle has pulled these people away or the parents not giving them a jewish education push most of these people away. not orth Judaism.”
There are so many more reasons! A lot of OTDers have been emotionally or physically abused, or they got tired of having so much of their life scrutinized, or they have talents/skills/gifts which they can’t put to use in their community without some form of condemnation, etc. I never said Orthodox Judaism pushes people away because I don’t believe that; people push people away without meaning to do so.
David Klinghoffer has an excellent article about this. http://www.forward.com/articles/3649/
Basically, one who holds that denominations like Humanistic Judaism are legitimately Jewish while denying that Messianic Judaism is Jewish are guilty of holding a double standard. After all, Humanistic Judaism is theologically identical to secular humanism, and only bears the culture of Judaism.
One can be born a Jew, and then deny God, deny the divine revelation of the Torah, and worship the sun, and is still Jewish, even by the most Orthodox definition of Jewishness. Conversely, one can believe absolutely in the entire dogma of Judaism, that the entire Oral and Written Torahs were directly from Moshe at Sinai, from the one God of Israel. Yet without being born a Jew or converting to Judaism, this individual is not a Jew, even by the standards of the most liberal sects of Judaism.
After finding out I was a born Jew, I began taking courses on Judaism, undergoing the exact same learning that a non-Jew needs to undergo in order to convert. One thing that struck me about Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist Judaism is the de-emphasis on theology and doctrine. I was told repeatedly that your beliefs are not important, it’s the identification as a member of the Jewish nation and a commitment to live Jewishly that mattered.
Until the topic of Jesus was brought into the picture. Then it became all about what you believe in. This strikes me as inconsistent and arbitrary. Liberal Jews are usually okay with intermarrying, driving on Shabbat, and practicing homosexuality. It reduces Judaism to one commandment: you shall not accept Jesus as your savior. When discussing what types of theology are okay, and which are heretical, one Modern Orthodox Rabbi told me that almost any theological interpretation of the Tanakh is absolutely fine, as long as you do not believe in the deity of Jesus … or Schneerson.
In the Velveteen Rabbi article, Nancy Cochran gave a nice explanation of Jews for Jesus. “There is nothing deceptive or dissembling about J4J, nor do they ‘disguise’ themselves. The name says it all: Jews for Jesus. It couldn’t be any clearer than that.
“Whether I follow rabbinic tradition, Buddha, humanism, Chabad, nihilism, communism, atheism, or, yes, even Jesus, I am still Jewish. The God of the Universe has made me Jewish, and nothing any mere human being says can change that…J4J has never claimed to be a form of Judaism, nor do we claim the title of Judaism.”
Wow Drew, those were really thoughtful comments.
“There is nothing deceptive or dissembling about J4J, nor do they ‘disguise’ themselves. The name says it all: Jews for Jesus. It couldn’t be any clearer than that.”
but they are dissembling because many of them are not jewish, their mothers weren’t jewish, their fathers weren’t jewish, they have no connection with judaism they just disguise themselves like ‘fiddler on the roof’ to trick the unnwary – but they have little success converting actual jews, so i don’t care
I feel triggered by Christian missionaries because I associate Christian proselytizing with genocide and forced conversions: of Jews, Native Americans, and others. How many Jews have converted or been forced to practice in secret to avoid persecution? The opportunity to ‘convert’ (read from a ship, in Spanish) was given before blanket murder of native communities could be undertaken. It seems like it takes a lot of audacity and collective arrogance to come to my door, and communities around the world, with this past, and I don’t get the sense it is something missionaries have wrestled with.
There is a lot of Christian privilege involved also. I do believe that if Muslims, Pagans, or Jews were going door to door proselytizing, the idea that we all just need to quietly tolerate it would quickly shift. But I did think it was funny when this guy went door to door, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMXD4iwklcI
I think people become upset at Jews for Jesus, and not as much at the rest of the Messianic Jews, because they seem dishonest. They don’t seem like a group of people with any legitimate claims to a Jewish identity and an unusual, or even heretical, interpretation of what that means; they seem like a group of Christians posing as such. Velveteen Rabbi had a good post about this, http://velveteenrabbi.blogs.com/blog/2004/08/wrangling_with_.html.
“Seem like”? They absolutely are dishonest. And their late founder, may he drown in flaming manure for all eternity, was sometimes remarkably up front about it. According to him K4K was a “ministry” designed to “bring Jews to Christ”. In particular, the idea was to get Jews baptized and into Evangelical Protestant churches as quickly as possible.
LilithVashti, the only thing more awesome and hilarious than the door-to-door video on YouTube is the name you’re posting under. ;^D
Holy Crap! There’s this dude on my college campus about twice a week who holds up a ginormous sign shouting at everyone that we’re all gonna go to hell if we dont accept jesus! Everyone just walks by and ignores him though.
There’s a difference. The street preachers don’t really expect to convert you. They get their jollies being mocked by infidels.
Fans of the Happy Hebrew Haploid wage a very carefully constructed campaign of misrepresentation, F.U.D., emotional manipulation and outright lies to win people over.
The obvious problem with J4J is that they use our ancient and holy traditions to sell their chazarei. Feh! The problem with all other missionaries and proselytizers of every stripe is their consummate arrogance. They know better than everyone else, and theirs is the only way. Don’t bother us. We know where to find you if we want you–and we don’t want you. Double feh! Missionaries, mind your own damned business!
Too late
I think there was supposed to be more posted above. It trails off at the bottom there with “Missionaries always” and then there’s no more ….
Someone once told me this about his neighbor, a six-foot something Jewish WW2 vet:
When missionaries would come to his door, he’d say “Do you know I’m commanded to kill you?”
I’m just throwing this out there, I care about the missionaries and JforJ, and I don’t at all think I’m one of those pushing away my nonreligious brothers. Their rhetoric, as pointed out repeatedly here, is insidiously designed to pray on those too ignorant to be able to do their own translations and research.
Additionally, my experience with Jews involved with antimissionary activity has been nothing but positive, in so far as their interactions with less religious elements of Judaism.
Maybe it’s because I’ve never spent any considerable time in NY Jewish areas, but I’ve always been pretty impressed by the genuine caring and sincerity of the Rabbaim I’ve had, especially those involved with kiruv. There are hypocrites out there, but I’ve yet to come across one.
Ofcourse, this is all anecdotal.
As an addendum, I have to add that it truly, truly grates on me that after being chiefly responsible for the massacre of uncountable millions of Jews, Christianity has any ability to gain inroads into our people through a perversion of our Torah, while having the gall to masquerade as an elevated form of Judaism! This is not new by any means, but it is genuinely painful for me to see it.
Side note: If it’s not obvious you’re Jewish and you’re approached by Christian missionaries/Jehovah’s Witnesses/etc., just say, “No, thanks, I’m Orthodox.” They’ll leave you alone. This also works on people on the street pitching fortune telling services.
You actually believe that to be the case? Ignorance is a bliss I guess.
It isn’t belief. It has always worked for me since I was a kid (thanks, mom) and had Jehovah’s Witnesses in our neighborhood every Sunday.
Don’t you ever tire of fallacies?
And there are plenty whom it hasn’t worked for. Mormons redouble their efforts. So do Baptists.
You cannot be serious.
I’m with Julie — I hate to doubt you, but you can’t be serious. Have you SERIOUSLY used this line with success?!
For the record, I do respect Judaism and Orthodoxy, but whatever thoughts I have that I post people bash me either way. Last week I put up a post that thanked the Charedi world for all it did to rebuild postwar Judaism in the treife medina and how we shouldn’t go around blasting everyone for becoming too frum, then I was lambasted, now I am lambasted – I write that I want to learn more about other Jews – I am blasted. I write that I am down with chabad – I am blasted. So it seems that my theory that no one is ever pleased – is absolutely correct.
I just find it interesting that no matter what I write, people will say that they lost respect for me. It seems like it’s all fun and games until I push one of their own buttons. Oh, you bash this group and that group, but don’t touch my group.
I also find it interesting that people actually come to a website with multiple opinions, many of them contradicting each other and think they are going to agree with everything (I don’t even agree with everything I write) The older more mature or academic readers have realized this long ago – I PUT UP OPPOSING OPINIONS ALL OF THE TIME. I would never talk to a missionary or a Jews for Jesus person, I’m not down with that shit, but I don’t delist them from my facebook friends (unless you spam my wall or me) and I don’t take a militant view against them, or anyone for that matter. I wish I were open minded, but if anything, moving to the Bay Area has made me much more right wing.
So next time you read something on this here blog that offends you or that you don’t agree with – just think about the fact you don’t just stop reading a newspaper because you don’t agree with one article written on the darned thing (not that I can tell because my traffic goes up every day) but it’s annoying to know that people are so stuck up that they get offended and leave over one article.
“Get offended and leave” my ass! They just say they’re gonna leave. They’ll be back tomorrow or the next day to rile themselves up & post comments about their outrage, I guarantee it.
People like to argue, Hesh. It’s in our blood.
lol true! anyway the outraged replies to everything is the funniest part of this website, this is why i read it
Things like hate groups, pornographers, and missionaries are all unfortunate byproducts of free speech. Places like /b/ are filled with this rubbish, but I’m surprised that someone who claims to be frum would find any of these things acceptable.
I dont remember the source but this makes me think of that story with the guy drilling a hole in a boat. The other passengers saw this and immediately expressed concern, he explained that he was simply drilling a hole under HIS seat and the other passengers need not worry.
What others do affects all. When others are committing avoda zara in the name of Judaism, targeting Jews (and unfortunately succeeding), and publishing books called “the orthodox jewish bible”, there is an issue that is not confined to themselves. we could all sink from their hole.
Rolling Eyes-
” what does that even mean? im not following….
“1. If you saw my apartment, you’d realize how wrong you are about the Yeshua thing.
I am an ex christian, sort of… Ive got the scoop. the problem is Jews, born Jews dont really understand xianism other than whats on paper. I lived it and understand the “spirit” of christianity not just the tennets. And you could not be more wrong. every denomination believes in evangelizing. (proselytizing) The xians that do not actively evangelized (in any denomination) are not really following what xianism is all about. they are like an OTD jew… a practicing xian believes that all men must be saved by accepting jesus “in to their heart” or confessing belief for him. yes denominations fight over whether miricales are for today, speaking in tonuges, if G-d is three in one or just one, predestination, having instruments in service, snake handling, mormonism, they fight about baptism rituals, etc. the only thing that connects them all is the fact that you must believe in jesus to be saved form eternal hell, so then they must tell everyone about it because they dont want people to go to hell. but there are plenty of xians that go to church 2 times a year and dont really care about what others are doing, but these in many churches eyes are “lost sheep” theirself, they are called “backslid or complacent” the fervent xians almost all share the “gospel” with people if the opportunity arises and some even force that opportunity.
Yep. I’m painfully familiar with that part. Their attitude really is different. A Jew might believe his religion is better than anyone else’s, but for about 2000 years there’s been a real allergy to going out and converting other people to it.
A religious Christian has the urge to evangelize built in. No matter how genuinely nice a person he is the urge to share his faith will be there.
The problem comes when you decide you don’t want to buy into the spiritual equivalent of Amway.
To its credit the Quran tells Muslims the only way they are permitted to convert others is by their good example. The fact that this commandment is followed about as well as anyone else follows theirs is another matter.
As far as I know the Amish are one Christian denomination who do not proselytize to outsiders, FrumGer. The Hutterites would be another example.
You’re absolutely right. I’d forgotten about them. The Old Order Mennonites, Doukhobors and a few others do not permit conversion.
The Christian view of conversion is this:
1. Christians are commanded to “go and make disciples of all nations.” So right off the bat, that’s a commandment.
2. Suppose you thought you had discovered a cure for cancer. All you had to be cured was to take this pill and really believe it would cure you. You would then never get cancer. Wouldn’t you feel compelled to tell everybody about it? Might you not even get so frustrated that you would secretely give it to kids or force people to take the pill against their will? (Forgetting that it doesn’t actually work if you don’t believe in it.)
When a Christian tries to convert you he is trying to do you a favor. When Christians stop trying to convert Jews it will mean either 1) they no longer believe their own religion (true in many cases) or 2) they don’t actually care if Jews go to hell. But, in fact, where #1 is not true then #2 is generally not true either.
Ah, “No True Scotsman”. Got it. Come back when you’ve learned to think clearly.
Note: The “No True Scotsman” fallacy is one of the simplest ones. It’s a way of ignoring anything which contradicts a person’s views. The usual formulation is something like this…
“No Scotsman sweetens his porridge.”
“Angus puts sugar on his porridge.”
“No true Scotsman sweetens his porridge.”
The Amish are Christians. The Mennonites are Christians. The Society of Friends, the Hutterites, the Dhoukobors and any number of other denominations don’t believe in the same aggressive interpretation of the Great Commission that you do. So you carefully exclude them and say they aren’t real Christians.
A. Nuran, I had never heard this logical fallacy illustrated using a Scotsman — that is AWESOME. I’m totally going to steal it for future use.
You know what those Hutterite colonies kind of remind me of, by the way? Kiryas Joel. Or even the farther-flung and more self-sufficient illegal settlements in Israel.
A couple good sources for logical fallacies:
Logical Fallacies.info
Atheism.about.com.
The Christian sects you mention are a lot like the Charedim enclaves. Psychologically and socially (pathologically?) they’re nearly identical. The main difference is that the Hutterites, Mennonites and so on are economically self-supporting.
Awesome, thanks much A. Nuran!
One of these days, I’m going to get a J4J and a Meshichst Chabadnick in the same place at the same time, and let them argue over which dead Yid is the Messiah…
I would pay good money to see that.
Kiruv *and* fundraising.
What’s not to love?
One thing about missionaries. They only do what they do, because they want to protect people. Christians do not try to take your religion away from you to be mean, they just want to make sure you are safe. All that can save you is Jesus, and there are no specific religious laws anyone has to follow to be considered a “Christian.” People can just go back to keeping their old religion like nothing happened. It is a safety precaution.
Uh, no. We can’t become Christian as a precaution. We need to believe as Jews.
(And, not that I care, if “he” loves us so much – why are we only safe if we believe in him. Is he that shallow? I help people who don’t worship me)
So, as Jews who do not believe in Jesus whatsoever — are we all going to your idea of “Hell”? Some Christians tell me no, others tell me yes.
That’s because some Christians believe you are and some do not. Christianity is a very fractious thing.
Some Christians, for example, believe that Catholics or Christians allied with more doctrines different than their own are going to hell — much less a Jew! And some liberal Christians don’t even believe in a literal hell.
christians, that is simply ridiculous. First of all, the epileptic murderer Saul of Tarsus added a whole boat load of commandments when he tore Jesus’ followers away from Judaism. Women being forced to submit to their husbands, Jews as “synagogues of Satan” and so on. So did your Jeebus assuming he actually existed, which is highly doubtful.
Second, you can’t just swear a false oath, pretend to be one of the Blood Drinkers and practice your religion in secret. We’ve seen what happens when your Church catches wind of that. The Inquisition against the Spanish Jews, the Orthodox Church murdering supposedly insincere converts wholesale and similar atrocities on the part of Protestants.
If it were just about “protecting” people they wouldn’t torture and murder anyone who didn’t go along which they have consistently done for the better part of two thousand years.
In my mind, A. Nuran, the real founding father of Christianity was Saul / Paul, not Jesus.
As I understand it, before Saul / Paul, it was difficult to recruit non-Jews to the sect, because they would have to obey the laws of the Torah in addition to proclaiming faith in Jesus as the messiah.
After taking the helm, Saul / Paul was conveniently visited in a vision by the long-gone Jesus, wherein Jesus informed Saul / Paul that this would no longer be necessary. Afterwards, it was way easier to bring new converts into the organization.
Considering how Paul completely gutted the Torah, ran around dissing James’ followers and turned one of dozens of mystical Jewish splinter cults into a giant Multi-Level Marketing scheme I’d have to agree.
Somewhat ironic that you can be a total atheist, believe nothing about Torah tziva lanu Moshe, but if you’re born to a Jew, you’re a Jew, even by the most Orthodox standards. Conversely, if you believe the whole dogma of Haredi Judaism, but haven’t been born to a Jew or converted, then you are not a Jew, even by the most liberal standards.
Why then, does Judaism apply a totally different standard to Jews once they believe in Jesus?
David Klinghoffer offers his views on this. http://www.forward.com/articles/3649/
“Somewhat ironic that you can be a total atheist, believe nothing about Torah tziva lanu Moshe, but if you’re born to a Jew, you’re a Jew, even by the most Orthodox standards.”
yea, we’re a religio-nationality, meaning we’re not just a religion but a nation as well. some would rather define it as a people but wtvr you call it is not the point, you are jewish if you were born jewish cause theirs something called dna.
“Conversely, if you believe the whole dogma of Haredi Judaism, but haven’t been born to a Jew or converted, then you are not a Jew, even by the most liberal standards.”
ditto.
“Why then, does Judaism apply a totally different standard to Jews once they believe in Jesus?”
i have no idea what your talking about. they are still jews. they are wrong and have accepted a different religion but they are still jews. just like if a jew converts to islam, he is still jewish according to our standards. j4j is misleading because it doesnt call itself Christianity while in essence it is. they believe in the trinity for example. if you want a clearer picture about j4j, what they do, how, why and why they are wrong i would recommend going to “outreachjudaim.com”
Think about the Apache. You can be a complete “apple” who doesn’t know a word of Inde, has never been on the rez and can’t hunt. You’re still an Apache. You can know everything about the language, the culture, the history and think they are the coolest thing since repeating firearms. Unless you’re born Apache or are adopted into a family you’re still an outsider.
It’s the same with being a Jew.
My experience of missionaries in Israel is that no tactic seems to be below them: they specifically target the most vulnerable people, homeless and new immigrants, they fraudulently convert to infiltrate hareidi communities, and during the disengagement they handed out orange covered NTs to the dati-leumi.
You may be strong in your Judaism, but there are plenty who are not. Any association with them gives them credence both to themselves, and in the eyes of the unawares, when they boast that their best friend is Jewish, (meaning you).
My first question for any Jew complaining about Christian missionaries luring “weak” Jews off the derech and into the welcoming arms of Jesus would be this.
Are you putting even a SINGLE dollar or ounce of effort into any active kiruv organization?!
Now, many frum Jews could answer “yes” to this question, and all respect is due to them. Chabadniks would be the obvious example here.
BUT, if you are not making equal or better effort to bring “spiritually weak” or vulnerable Jews over to YOUR way of thinking, well … don’t be so offended & shocked when Jews for Jesus crowd lures yet another one of God’s chosen people over to the dark side!
Numerous comments on various Orthodox sites indicate that many Orthodox Jews believe that Reform and Conservative Jews are practicing “another religion”.
If you believe that to be the case, then other than “well, we are us, and they are them, and we are right”, how is Kiruv different from Christian Evangelism?
Amish Mennonite Hutterite, etc.. Suppose I forgot about them, but i must say they only dont evangelize not because its not christian doctrine but rather because they for the most part were outcasts. the amish for example hate the “english” because of persecution their faith has. they still believe that those that do not except jesus are going to hell.
Christians- an insurance policy religion…? whats the deductable?
the fact is that is you only believe something for the “just in case” factor you dont really believe in it- its a logical conundrum… Judaism is a religion of defining dos and donts one of the donts is worshiping a graven image of G-d. if we were to keep all other commandments and broke that one we would be still breaking the Torah, because worshipping G-d in the form of a man is to worship a Graven image. which leads me to the real reason no jew can just be jewish but believe in jesus. the New testament narritive is only believable if you never had a Jewish education. Most jews that understand any hebrew or have been taught Tanaach really find what Christians believe to be absurd and against the Torah in many facets. The Torah simply states that no man can die for another mans sins- (Deuteronomy 24 -18) (Exekiel 18) The virgin birth(Isaiah 7-14) is a mistranstalion of the word Almah (young women not virgin virgin is Betulah) I could go on and on…. we do not require faith- we require action so the concept of faith is really a non just way of life. Jew see the value in what you do over what or who you believe in. there is not dictum that states you must be born agian in the name of the messiah or that you must accept the messiah into your heart and believe in him. there is nothing in the Torah that says faith in the messiah is the way to heaven. the only thing we are to do is the Torah.
Pascal’s Wager was always a sucker’s bet
And yet I’ve seen numerous Orthodox posters use it over the years, not even realizing that it was originally used to “prove” Christianity.
Then again, I’ve seen Meshichists break out the “Liar, Lunatic, Lord” trilemna to prove Rebbe as Moshiach.
The Ashkenazi Charedim have turned 18th and 19th century Czarist Russian crudeness and prejudices into bedrock principles of their religion. Why not Christian stupidity too?
More charitably, there are a few classic ways to be stupid. Jews will come up with the same ones as Christians, Hindus or Flying Spaghetti Monster Pastafarians.
I take it that you don’t believe. It has always truck me as somewhat funny that only atheists can be rational, and religious observance is, no matter what evidence is given, and no matter which great minds historically were religious, is by definition irrational, and that the explanation for this is, and I quote Richard Dawkins, Chief Rabbi/Pope/Grand Ayatollah of Atheism, here: “G-d is unscientific”. That is, if it is not science, it cannot be true. How irrational is that? Van Gogh was not “scientific”, but his paintings certainly exist, and, what’s more, are revered world over. What makes science the sole arbiter of truth? What’s even funnier is that, strictly speaking, evolution is also “unscientific”, as it does not follow the scientific method (observe, postulate, experiment, critique – no-one can test evolution in a laboratory environment and all attempts at critique are drowned out by cries of contempt that the critic “does not believe [note the specific usage of the word] in evolution”, as if nothing can be more laughable…). Now don’t bring logic in here, because to hypothesise purely from logic is unscientific, and anyway, there are several logical arguments espoused for G-d’s existence anyway. And if Jews have made errors in their interpretation of G-d’s word, so what? Humans are fallible, all humans, including scientists. You also show your lack of knowledge of both contemporary and historic Jewish sociology with your sweepingly crude remarks about Czarist Russia and bedrocks of faith, firstly because most Ashkenazi Jews nowadays are not of Russian descent (I don’t know if you heard, but there was this thing called Communism and the Iron Curtain kind of prevented most Russian Jews leaving said country, and those that stayed were forcibly weaned off religion under threat of gulags) but rather Lithuanians who left before during and immediately after WWII, Poles (mostly from the south), Hungarians, Romanians and Germans. Secondly because Chassidus was never really a big hit in Russia (there were one or two, notably the Rizhin dynasty and Lubavitch) but Chassidus was really Polish and Galician (a region now in North East Poland), with a lot of Romanians and Hungarians getting in on the act too. And if you’re referring to the “yeshivishe” circles, do you honestly think that all the 18th century Russians were running around in black suits and fedoras (that was the German style back then, German Jews were derogatorally called “yekes” or “short jackets” based on this)? But hey ho another uninformed “liberal” whose liberalism extends only towards those who share his views.
Whether I believe or not has no bearing on the ability to recognize faulty reasoning and abuse of both logic and facts.
A bad argument is a bad argument regardless of its conclusion. If you put it forward in support of your beliefs it weakens them. If you accept it then you are forced to do the same when another uses it in support of his own.
But to the True Believer none of that matters. Anyone who does not share his beliefs is wrong by definition. And anything or anyone which does must be right.
Talmudic education is famous for developing a keen logical mind. If arguments as easily obliterated as Pascal’s Wager and Mad, Bad or God allowed to slide any thinking person would have to revise that assumption.
In plainer language “Don’t do this. You’re embarrassing the family.”
Look, I’m not talking about Pascal’s wager, which, by the way was not an argument in favour of any specific religion, or indeed an argument for the existence or belief in G-d whatsoever, it was simply an expression of pragmatism. That is, it does not argue in favour of believing in G-d, simply that you have nothing to lose by doing so, and may (stress may) have a lot to lose by not doing so, hence the pragmatic thing to do is to believe. When looked at this way, the argument withstands the objections that you put forward. In fact, if you read my post carefully, you will notice that I don’t mention any argument in particular, and simply noted that there were many great minds who put forward rational, logical and cogent arguments for the existence of G-d, and the reason that I said that was in response not to your remarks about Pascal (who was far from stupid, have you ever read any of his works? I have, and I’m telling you, he was one seriously clever Frenchie) but in response to the Flying Spaghetti Pastafarian remark, an old jab at believers which aims to paint them as illogical and daft. I simply wished to show that the issue is not that simple. But to the True Unbeliever none of that matters. Anyone who does not share his disbelief is wrong by definition.
“Christianity as an insurance policy religion” … of course there are SO many things wrong with that idea, but I think that the most famous articulation of this idea is “Pascal’s Wager”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
Of course Pascal does not even state he is talking about the Christian notion of God, he doesn’t spell it out because his point of reference is so ingrained in him it doesn’t occur to him to consider his wager from non-Christian points of view ….
FrumGer, your comments are super-interesting and well informed. I enjoy reading them. Do you really belong to Ger, or am I interpreting that wrong? That may be an idiotic question. Sorry. :^)
If you read the article a little further you’ll find he actually was talking about Christianity. Pascal had “disposed of” everything else earlier.
Mahla- Thanks for the compliment- I have someone on this board that doesn’t despise my sentiments….
No I am not A Gerer Chossid I am a Ger as in a Convert to Judaism….
I have heard Pascals Wager before, and it really is ingrained into evangelical xianism, I have heard many say, the classic “what if your wrong?” well to me its a non starter…It would be just Religious Fraud. If I only believe for the “what if” then I wager* ( ;o) …I dont really believe anyway. I might go though motions but xianism isnt about motions its all about belief… about the heart. So it couldnt help. You cant Fake out G-d…
Dave- Kiruv is Evangelism to Jews, not to other religions. A jew might be practicing another religion but he or she is still a jew and can come back anytime…I don’t really look at kiruv as prostlytizing, meaning stealing a person form another religion to yours or another denomination to yours. The Jews belong to the Torah 1st and so the other systems of worship (including social streams of Judaism like reform and conservative) have no true claim on the Yiddishe Neshamah. I look at kiruv as the Torah taking back its own belongings…Lack of jewish education is what Kiruv is battling… parents that would not give their kinderlock a Jewish education have stolen the Jew. Ha Shoah has stolen the Jew. lust of the treifah medina has stolen the Jew. Want of money has stolen the Jew I dont believe other religions are a real issue. they are just an affect of the cause. cut this thing at the head and there would be no jewish converts to xianism, islam, buddhism etc..
some will still go OTD, of course but not as many..
I will say im tired of everone saying hard ass judgemetal orthodox jews are what make people go otd, its not true. there are hard ass atheist and hard ass xians and hard ass buddhist etc. Every culture in the world is judgemental, every culture in the world is enclave, America is enclave- their enclave happens to be big. These problems exist everywhere and are a social issue not a Orthodox Jewish one.
It’s prosyletism.
The only difference is that you think only people who are halachically Jewish but practicing another faith are fair targets, and they think everyone is a fair target.
It’s still evangelism, it’s still prosyletizing, and the moment you go that route you give up any right to complain when people do it to you.
Whilst missionaries converting Jews is bad (doesn’t it violate a commandement in deuteronomy?). What about missionaries converting cannibals or Muslims?
For example some of my ancestors were Polynesian and they practiced cannibalism and human sacrifice until they converted to Christianity? Or England (Where most Americans and Aussies come from) practiced human sacrifice, and South America practiced human sacrifice on a wide scale, aren’t missionaries an improvement?
There are still cannibals in Papua New Guinea.
there are plenty of polynesians and other cultures who used to practise cannibalism but gave it up without converting to christianity. cannbials have to make their own decisoins how to accomodate their traditions with the modern world, it is not up to outsiders to destroy their entire culture because we disapprove of some traditional practise.
cannibals generally didn’t kill people just to eat them, they ritually ate part of the body or bood of their enemy killed in battle. when they were colonised and subsumed into nation states they were forced to give up tribal warfare so cannibalism went out of practise. otoh christians still eat the blood and body of christ every week.
south americans gave up human sacrifice because they were wiped out by euopen diseases and coloniization. are genocide and germ warfare preferable to ritual sacrifice?
good points by no and anonymous…
I have been thinking about this a lot-one of the reasons I stopped being Christian was the thought of every individual who hadn’t had the good fortune to accept Jesus as their saviour (because they live on isolated little islands in the Pacific and therefore haven’t met any missionaries) going to hell was a little disturbing…
But then they violate the 7 laws of Noah anyway cos they ate each other (yes I am well aware that it was part of Tribal conflict, although human sacrifice was practiced by some)… But people can chose not to commit cannibalism or infanticide, they can never chose to accept Jesus as their saviour if they haven’t heard of him.
I’ve had a couple different encounters with J4J. My favorite one was in St. Louis when I was on tour with my band. We had a couple hours to kill in the city and we were walking around. I had been chewing the same piece of gum for about 3 hours and was dying to get rid of it, but didn’t want to spit it down on the ground. I was frantically looking for a trashcan when I guess one of these J4J guys spotted me: long beard, hat, tzitzit…the guy probably thought he was dreaming. He pretty much ran over to me and I really wasn’t paying attention to anything he was saying, just nodding at what he said, because all I was focussed on was getting this flavorless piece of rubber out of my mouth. He handed me some literature. I kinda pretended to thumb through it while he spoke. As we parted ways and I thought the guy was out of sight, I spit out gum in flier and threw it in a nearby trashcan. I looked over to see that the guy had witnessed the entire thing. His jaw was dropped and his eyes were huge. I felt kinda bad because I didn’t mean to spit on his literature and throw it away, but then again, it was J4J, so I didn’t feel that bad.
From what I understand, the “Jews” part is a ploy to get you to accept the J-guy as G-d. They don’t keep Shabbos, kashrut, etc. If they really wanted to reel in Jews, they would probably set up a tefillin station and then talk to you about the J-guy. But nah, most of ‘em don’t even cover their heads.
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