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If converts are on such a high level why won’t you marry one?

If gerim are on such a high madreiga, why doesnt anyone want to marry them?

Its a pretty good question. I myself am very fond of converts. I think they must have some loose screws for wanting to join our nutty religion, but when it comes down to it, we all must have some loose screws for wanting to stick with the madness we call orthodox Judaism.

If people really thought converts were on such a high level, you would think they would be going like hotcakes.Visiting the shadchan, they kind of give me this quizzical look when I, Mr. FFB, am willing to date a convert. Willing is a strong word. Most of you may disagree, but I think marrying a convert has a ton of advantages.

One of my biggest fears of marriage, other than winding up with an ugly lower ervah area, is marrying a girl from a place I really dont like. I would probably want to kill myself if I had to spend more time than is necessary to fill my tank with cheap gas in New Jersey. What if your inlaws live in Brooklyn? Sure, I would date girls from New Jersey (my first girlfriend was from Elizabeth — I was 14) but its a scary thought.

Reasons to marry a convert:

You never have to spend yom tov with their family (maybe Christmas or Thanksgiving)

They are usually hotter than us Jews

They are probably already trained in tashmish hamitah

They have better manners

They can teach you about their former religion

They can give you a better understanding of the privileges of being a Jew

They wont go crazy when they catch you looking at porn

They dont look at every little thing as a crisis

They always have a good story about their conversion to tell

A lot of the time they are from somewhere weird and cool

{ 158 comments… add one }
  • Anonymous June 2, 2010, 9:28 AM

    This is definitely not always the case, but many people convert later in life, for example I know a woman who is a convert and had been married beforehand…even an older divorced FFB Jewish woman would not have as easy of a time getting married as a younger never-married girl.

  • abandoning eden June 2, 2010, 9:37 AM

    you can always move far away from your inlaws if you don’t want to visit horrible plances that often. My inlaws live a 13 hour drive away in the most boring area of the boring midwest, but since they live so far we only see them around 3 or 4 times a year- and for some of those visits they visit us.

    Anyways my point is…where your inlaws are from is a silly thing to get hung up on 🙂

    • Heshy Fried June 2, 2010, 10:27 AM

      For some reason girls always want to move back home after they have kids. Go to the midwest and you will find loads of men who were forced by their wives to move closer to their families. I feel bad for these peeps.

      • abandoning eden June 2, 2010, 11:25 AM

        Maybe cause their husbands traditionally don’t help them out with the childraising too much, so they have to go live near their mom’s to get some help with the kids? 🙂

        • Laurie June 2, 2010, 3:44 PM

          Funny…..I feel sorry for anyone who is forced to live in New York.

      • A. Nuran June 4, 2010, 10:43 AM

        There’s actually a very strong biological basis for this supported by good solid research. Women who are dating tend to choose men whose smell and appearance are different from their families’. Women who are pregnant or have young children strongly prefer the smell of close kin and a marked preference for their faces.

        It’s part of a pattern known as female philopatry. In most mammals males disperse. Females stay near to where they were born. Your close kin have a genetic investment in your children and will tend to help keep them fed and protected. “Mommy’s baby. Daddy’s maybe,” and all that.

        • shiksa/ger June 4, 2010, 11:12 AM

          By scent, they don’t pick men too genetically close but not too far, either.

          The Pill, however, messes up their natural sense and they end up attracted to the wrong men.

          • shanamaidel September 4, 2012, 7:51 AM

            so true about the pill!

  • coolyiddishemama June 2, 2010, 9:51 AM

    Another benefit…diversifying the gene pool. Between Tay-Sachs and Gaucher’s, “inbreeding” is the last thing we should be doing.

    • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 12:36 PM

      That’s an excellent point. It’s gotten to the point where Ashkenazi, in particular, can be scientifically demonstrated to prefer dates with a differing HLA profile to get a tiny shred of diversity. We have a number of genetic diseases which are only problems because we are so terribly inbred.

      A bunch of men marrying converts and a couple raids by the Zulu Empire, the Mongol Hordes and marauding pirates would be the the best thing that could happen to us biologically.

      • SF2K1 June 3, 2010, 7:19 AM

        Recently there was a psychological article discussing the implications of our genetic diseases. Some scientists were suggesting that these genes were actually linked with the ones which allowed us to become more intelligent, much akin to sickle cell anaemia providing a great resistance to malaria. If so, the watering down of such genes may adversely affect us.

        • A. Nuran June 3, 2010, 2:44 PM

          I’ve read similar articles. The ones citing increased intelligence make a much less convincing, less supported case.

          • elana August 26, 2011, 12:47 AM

            My mom is a convert -I finished 11th grade at age 15 with an average of 98 on my matriculation exams (the Israeli bagrouyot) I have been speaking 2 languages for as long as I can remember and I have an above average IQ. My only problem is my attitude. I will not do something if I don’t know or agree with the reasoning . The point I am trying to make is that the “diluted intelligence theory” is bogus.

            • BiggestFish March 3, 2012, 11:12 PM

              A cross between a Jew and a non-Jew is highly intelligent. Lots of nobel prize winners are half Jews. (Genetically that is, I am not implying you are half Jewish.)
              It seems to me that breeding with someone else causes more intelligent children. I don’t know how far this trait continues generationally.
              I am wondering is your Mom smart? I know it has been awhile since you posted, but you may respond. Who knows?
              Hybrid vigor. Look it up.

  • Moishe June 2, 2010, 9:54 AM

    BS”D

    I could never make sense of the contradictions between one person telling me that gerim are on a high spiritual level and are as Jewish as anyone who was born Jewish, and another person who will give gerim a hard time because they aren’t “jewish” enough.
    What the hell?

  • Shira June 2, 2010, 9:57 AM

    That kindof sucks. Finally being part of a people, but no one wants to marry you?! lol Wow…

  • chevramaidel June 2, 2010, 9:58 AM

    “They are probably already trained in tashmish hamitah”
    Mr. Open Minded, you also have some preconceived ideas to straighten out. This is not always the case. Many converts have been on a spiritual path for years, and have been concentrating on their search for the right faith while others have been aimlessly fooling around. And some come from other religious traditions that discourage premarital hanky-panky as much as Orthodox Judaism does. Just because they told you in yeshiva that all goyim are doing it like dogs in the street, does not make it true.
    “They can teach you about their former religion”
    Actually, I have learned more about Christianity, as well as other religions, since my conversion than I knew before. I had to know a few basics just to explain to people what I didn’t believe in! I was raised without any religious teaching whatsoever. In fact, my mother started me on the path to Judaism when she told me that she didn’t believe in J. and that of all the religions, Judaism made the most sense to her.
    As far as being from someplace “weird and cool”, try living with WASPs for a while. Jews are way weirder and cooler!

    • Chris_B June 2, 2010, 11:24 AM

      I too had no religion before I converted. None at all in my house growing up, none as an adult.

    • Julie June 3, 2010, 6:32 PM

      But on the flip side, I’ve probably got a black belt in tashmish hamitah and I’m not ashamed. Maybe I was doing it like a dog in the street! Point is, I got burned a lot and realized that it was pretty pointless — secular dudes seem to (magically!!) tire of you quicker once you sleep with them. It’s just that eventually I caught on and now it’s not like I’m giving BJs on the bimah or whatever. I’m glad that I’ve experienced both aspects of sexuality so I don’t have to wonder if I’m missing out on something.

  • anon June 2, 2010, 10:39 AM

    “They won’t go crazy when the catch you looking at porn.”

    I wouldn’t count on that.

  • Lksberg June 2, 2010, 10:53 AM

    I wouldn’t mind marrying a convert.

  • tesyaa June 2, 2010, 10:58 AM

    A popular reason that people give for not marrying BTs and gerim is that they want their kids to have 4 frum grandparents. However, they don’t mind marrying FFBs whose parents aren’t alive, as long as everything else is OK. They don’t even mind marrying FFBs whose parents are flat-out insane, as long as they appear normal on the outside.

  • Esther June 2, 2010, 10:58 AM

    Ponder this one for a while – two of my friends got married last year. He is a Kohan and she’s a convert… Goes to show you, when you meet the right person, there’s nothing you wouldn’t do to be with them. They dated for 13 years before getting married and both made a conscious decision to choose this path.

    She is way more religious now than I’ve ever been, so when going to Shabbos dinner to their house, I, Jew by birth, repeat the blessings after my ger friend 🙂

    • shiksa/ger June 2, 2010, 11:33 AM

      WOAH! I think that’s pretty great. Good for them! Thank you for sharing.

      • Esther June 2, 2010, 11:37 AM

        😉 Some of the more religious folks had this to say upon hearing about this marriage: “You know there’s alot wrong there, religious-wise?” That is def so, but at the end of the day, everyone needs to do what’s right for them.

        • shiksa/ger June 2, 2010, 11:57 AM

          Well, there’s also a lot RIGHT. 13 years!!!

          • Esther June 2, 2010, 1:22 PM

            Agreed.

    • Ger June 2, 2010, 1:35 PM

      Too bad his children Will not be kohanim. Wonder if they are frum.

      • Esther June 2, 2010, 2:08 PM

        The fact that the children will not be kohanim was a hard pill for his family to swallow. But then again, it couldn’t have been easy for her Christian mom either… They both did what they had to do to be together and, yes, they are frum now. At least they are trying – kosher, shabbos, etc.

  • feivelbenmishael June 2, 2010, 11:03 AM

    Assuming your claim to be true there are reason’s I can see why people would not be interested in marrying converts.

    People usually want to marry people from a similar background, with a similar hashkafa, with similar life experiences, who they can relate to well. These things are factors in choosing shidduchim from across the spectrum. The reason your run of the mill frummy is not going to be interested in marrying a ger/giores is the same reason your run of the mill yeshivish girl is probably not going to be interested in marrying a bochur from Satmar.

    • anon June 2, 2010, 11:35 AM

      No, the reason a yeshivsh girl doesn’t want to marry a Satmar bochur is because she doesn’t want to live the Satmar lifestyle. It’s current lifestyle that’s important, not the past.

      • John June 2, 2010, 1:09 PM

        Anon, you couldnt be more wrong. If the satmar had left the satmar lifetyle the yeshivish person would be even les inclined to go out with her. and if she hant left but would follow his minhagim he would probably also not be intereted a Feivel correctly pointed out

        • anon June 2, 2010, 1:30 PM

          John – I know plenty of FFBs who have switched from chassius to yehishivh or vice versa and are now happily married to someone who comes from a different background. Don’t tell me it doesn’t happen, because it does.

          • John June 2, 2010, 1:34 PM

            Of course it happens all the time. However there are alos plenty who wouldnt go out. We arent arguing. keep in mind though that the yeshivish-chaisdish gap is a lot easier to bridge than yeshivish- convert gap

            • Tova June 2, 2010, 2:11 PM

              “keep in mind though that the yeshivish-chaisdish gap is a lot easier to bridge than yeshivish- convert gap”

              Indeed.

              • anon ger June 2, 2010, 11:31 PM

                um, you guys do know that some people are converted as children and grow up like any other ffb?

                • Anonymous June 3, 2010, 10:20 AM

                  Reread heshys post, thats not what this post is about

  • jimmy37 June 2, 2010, 11:08 AM

    My mother has a very shtetl outlook. She told me not to marry a ger because she wouldn’t have any mechutanesta to talk to.

    • shanamaidel September 4, 2012, 10:52 AM

      my mother says similar things. It is a lifestyle as much as a belief

  • shiksa/ger June 2, 2010, 11:31 AM

    My male Orthodox friends would never marry a gerim because the feeling is that despite conversion, they’re still not Jewish and by marrying and having children, they’re somehow wiping out Jews, accomplishing what Hitler wanted. I wonder how such people feel if they found out they came from Ruth?

    Yet, we all believe we came from the same two people and are created by G-d. Go figure.

    Don’t get me started on genes+scent+attraction+mating. It would be nice if science and religion could be better friends. I think humans just love screwing up G-d’s design and making things more difficult for everyone.

    • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 11:17 PM

      I thought we were explicitly forbidden to treat converts any different than those who were born Jewish. Even reminding them they were adopted into Israel rather than being born part of it was prohibited.

      Just goes to show halacha is whatever people want it to be, the Almighty be damned.

      • BiggestFish March 3, 2012, 11:16 PM

        I see you post all the time. Nobody tells you this, but after reading your posts for a few years, I am getting sick of it.
        You left your faith. You married a non-Jew. It is your choice. Your decision.
        Your negative attitude is poor. Your reasoning is not about Judaism. It is about pointing fault and saying Ha! Jews suck! Glad I left!
        If it makes you feel better, say whatever you want, but don’t post negatively just to clear all your emotions and all the things you have going on.

    • feivelbenmishael June 2, 2010, 11:20 PM

      Your friends transgress a clear Biblical prohibition.
      Gevalt!

    • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 11:30 PM

      That genes+scent+attraction+mating thing has left the world of “interesting speculation” and become “well-established, experimentally validated science”. We seem to have an inborn urge to have some of our children by our third and fourth cousins and a complementary desire to breed with people as different from us as possible.

      Unfortunately, science and revealed religion can never be “better friends”. Their entire epistemology and worldview is completely incompatible.

  • Anonymous June 2, 2010, 12:14 PM

    The fact is, most of us Jews, Ashenkazi and Sephardic, have some ancestors who were converts.

  • Anonymous June 2, 2010, 1:05 PM

    Geirim are on a very high madreiga. Just not as high as people born Jewish. I really dont mean to offend, we are commanded to love geirim, but nowhere does it say they are on a higher madreiga. Hope that helps.

    • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 11:18 PM

      And where are we told their madreiga is higher or lower than any other Jew’s?

      • John June 3, 2010, 10:24 AM

        they are mutar to marry a mamzer, forbidden to marry a kohein. and cant hold certain postitions like sanhedrin. Zechus avos is a concept often used, which they dont have (yitzchak’s tefila wa anwered before Rivka’s because he had his father’s zechusim on his side, while her parent were full fledged goyim. )

        • A. Nuran June 3, 2010, 2:45 PM

          A nice summary. Thanks.

        • Vicki March 7, 2011, 3:17 AM

          Using this logic, if Avraham Avinu ever showed up on an FFB family’s doorstep looking for a shidduch with their daughter, they would turn him down because his parents were goyishe idol worshippers.

          Zechus avos (or ‘yichus’) is unfortunately often complete rubbish as it’s practiced in the community. As for Yitzchak and Rivka’s prayers, I’ve read another explanation of why Yitzchak’s prayers were answered first: he was praying ‘please give us children in the merit of my righteous wife’, while Rivka was praying ‘please give us children in the merit of my righteous husband’.

          The Torah states repeatedly: ‘Love a convert’, ‘Do not oppress a convert’, etc. As far as I’m concerned, those who discriminate against converts think they know better than G-d and break numerous commandments mid’oraita. In light of this, I still don’t understand (after years of struggling with the issue) why in other places in the Torah converts are treated as second-class Jews (such as in the examples you’ve used).

          Personally, I think that converts (who converted for the right reasons) are on a higher level than (many) born Jews because converts *chose* Judaism rather than simply being born into the club. They’ve consciously decided to keep mitzvot because they believe in G-d and His Torah, not because their parents and everyone they know are doing it.

          • chaya rus alexandra November 18, 2018, 11:15 AM

            Vicki, thank you. B”H that after reading meshuga discriminatory remarks from other yidden, I could end with reading your sound and loving comment.

  • Anonymous June 2, 2010, 1:25 PM

    “They are usually hotter than us Jews”

    —Based on … what? I hate the stereotype you are trying to present.

    And by the way, the whole thread seems to point towards female converts.

    • Heshy Fried June 2, 2010, 6:43 PM

      Well duh – this is a blog written from a male perspective, hence the reason that most of the contributors to this blog are females so I can throw a little estrogen into the mix.

    • A. Nuran June 4, 2010, 10:47 AM

      Based on simple biology. There’s a well-established drive to try and get some genetic variety into one’s offspring. They end up being healthier. Jews, especially Ashkenazim, are terribly inbred. We aren’t as bad as the Amish, who are practically clones of each other. But it’s pretty bad. A convert represents a better chance for your kids to be strong and healthy. So yes, generally they will be more attractive than other Jews.

      • Esther June 4, 2010, 11:04 AM

        This is true. The more closed off a community, the more inbred they’ll be. Diversifying the gene pool is essential.

  • Tova June 2, 2010, 1:38 PM

    Because gerim aren’t considered to be part of the Jewish people.

    …Yeah, I said it.

    Study TaNaCh. Daven. Read sefarim. Converts are always placed into a separate category as an aside. It’s always “Israel and the converts among it”, not “Israel” alone.

    Saying that converts are fully Jewish is like saying “humanity and the blacks among it” and then claiming that black people are fully human.

    • Esther June 2, 2010, 3:31 PM

      Except for the fact that no one in their right mind will say “humanity and the blacks among it”

      • sarah June 2, 2010, 7:23 PM

        you mean like the founding fathers?

        • Chris_B June 3, 2010, 8:17 PM

          Troll score 2/10

    • Anonymous June 2, 2010, 4:00 PM

      Except for the fact that what you just said is ludicrous. It makes sense that people would believe that maybe geirim are in a separate, lesser category, and that therefore the Torah has to repeatedly tell us that THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Some of the biggest of Jewish leaders married geirim. Zeh hu. If, for some idiotic reason, there was a group of people who considering black people as not human, if you were entreating them to act with goodness and decency to their fellow man you would HAVE TO say something along the lines of “humanity and the blacks among it”.

    • Drew Mazanec June 2, 2010, 9:31 PM

      Telushkin teaches that the term “ger” in the Torah scrolls most likely means “stranger” or “sojourner” rather than “convert” because “you were once gerim in the land of Egypt”

      • Tova June 2, 2010, 10:33 PM

        Thank you, Drew, for your reply.

    • Chris_B June 3, 2010, 8:00 AM

      Thanks for delaying Moshiach just a little bit more. The same Moshiach who traces his linage back to a convert.

    • Stan June 3, 2010, 10:17 AM

      Tova, in kadih dirabana we say “al yisroel veal rabanan veal talmideihem…” meaning “for the jew and the rabbi and their students…” does this mean we dont conder rabbis and students to be jews?

      • Esther June 4, 2010, 11:08 AM

        I am impressed to see you speak up over this. There may be hope for you yet.

    • Chris_B June 3, 2010, 10:58 AM

      Maimonides held that a convert IS in fact of equal status as a born Jew. See here http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/chapter6-4.html and also his Letter to Obadiah referenced here http://www.lookstein.org/online_journal.php?id=257

    • frumfashionista June 3, 2010, 4:47 PM

      FYI, gerim are an a higher madreiga than FFBs because we have to deal with ugliness from people like you on a daily (sometimes hourly,) basis.

      BTW, you need to re-read the Tanach because you obviously don’t know about Yitro, Rut, and David HaMelech.

      I refuse to respond to the last part of your comment because it is just that foolish.

      • Julie June 3, 2010, 6:35 PM

        Thank you!

      • Tova June 4, 2010, 1:48 AM

        I do not hate my mother or any other convert; I am merely explaining what I have found to be the truth among Jewish people.

        Yes, Yitro…whose daughter was the victim of racist remarks from her sister-in-law.

        Yes, Rut…who was referred to as a “Moabite” even after she converted to Judaism.

        Yes, David…who wasn’t a convert and had a harem.

        Don’t shoot the messenger, please.

        “I refuse to respond to the last part of your comment”

        You just did.

        • Anonymous June 4, 2010, 3:08 AM

          obviously none of you lot converted to judaism for the jokes :-/

          • Julie June 4, 2010, 5:50 AM

            Yeah you can suck it, because you missed the entire point of the post. Sorry my sides aren’t splitting over extreme ignorance (wherein I’m a second-class citizen and a freak of nature for wanting to reconcile my yedid nefesh through formal conversion). You can’t possibly expect me to find it hilarious to get major crap for it from non-Jews and Jews alike who regard Judaism as a burden one is born with and anyone else is just a poseur.

          • chaya rus alexandra November 18, 2018, 11:20 AM

            When was joking about people by stepping on their personal integrity ever recommended d’oraisa? How ridiculous.
            A grosse Shkoyach to frumfashionista: “FYI, gerim are an a higher madreiga than FFBs because we have to deal with ugliness from people like you on a daily (sometimes hourly,) basis”

  • anonymous June 2, 2010, 1:58 PM

    You are not likely to “learn about their former religion” by marrying a convert. Most converts either didn’t have a former religion or were substantially clueless about it. That’s why they converted.

    Porn is sick stuff designed for people who have serious problems in their own lives. You don’t have to be a convert to or from any religion to know that.

  • Leibel June 2, 2010, 2:16 PM

    There’s a difference between what people say and do. Joshua married a giyores, that would never happen today (the Gadol Hador marrying a giyores, now Gedolim sadly do nothing to stop born Jews from persecuting Gairim or do so themselves), because leadership has to be by example and we don’t have that today. Until our leaders take a stand against the hatred and persecution of Gairim, marry gairim themselves thing will continue the way they are going now.

    • Stan June 2, 2010, 2:20 PM

      hatred and persecution? ive heard of not wanting to marry, but what are you reffering to

    • McLawyerson June 2, 2010, 3:57 PM

      R’ Akiva also married a geyores.

      • Stan June 2, 2010, 4:20 PM

        You made that up, unless you meant he was decendent from geirim

        • Anonymous June 2, 2010, 4:35 PM

          Its a Gemorah. He married The local Gov.’s wife.

          • Stan June 2, 2010, 4:36 PM

            right, my bad

            • Heshy Fried June 2, 2010, 6:44 PM

              Who’s the last gadol to marry a ger?

              • Stan June 2, 2010, 6:57 PM

                Amram Blau the founder of neturei karta, though i wouldnt consider him a gadol by any stretch of the word. still surprising

  • Sderot June 2, 2010, 2:23 PM

    More anti-semitic crap from this website. So converts ” are usually hotter than Jews.” Don’t make me laugh. Most of the “converts” I’ve seen are unattractive. It’s just another attack against Jewish women. You should marry a convert and then you will be stuck with gentile children when she decides that she misses Jesus and Christmas too much and goes back to being a good Christian. That happens a lot. You sound like a member of the Aryan brotherhood. Their forums are filled with attacks against Jewish women. Ugly is the nicest term they use to describe Jewish women. You would fit right in. Keep up the good work defaming Jewish womnen, the nazis would be proud.

    • Zachary Lerner June 2, 2010, 2:38 PM

      Don’t you think it’s wiser to take it on a case by case basis? What about all the kids that grew up with one Jewish parent, and eventually decided to ‘convert’ to the religion they grew up with? Simply lumping all gerim together is as misguided as lumping all baalei teshuva together; they come from very different backgrounds, and they are in very different places now. This is no attack against Jewish women, it’s a joke whose lesson is not to set wide-ranging a priori limitations on your dating life that are not required, or even suggested by the Torah.

    • Isak June 2, 2010, 2:54 PM

      Someone obviously forgot to take her medication today…

    • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 3:32 PM

      I find it interesting that you don’t find any slurs here about Jewish men.

      • men can't be "hot"? June 2, 2010, 4:46 PM

        What makes you think “converts are hotter…” applies only to women?

        • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 9:39 PM

          Exactly. But for some reason that idea escapes Sderot

    • shiksa/ger June 3, 2010, 10:26 AM

      Why are you reading Aryan forums?! Reading such junk is going to limit your worldview (like theirs) and make you hateful. You don’t have to read that stuff to know hate exists.

      I don’t know if I’ve ever heard about any women returning to Christianity except for your post or a Rabbi’s view on a site.

      Most groups have self-deprecating stereotypes; don’t take things personally. I regularly tell my male Jewish friends how gorgeous their women are. They shrug or say they don’t see it. The fact is that for some, the people they grow up around tend to become less exotic to them over time.

  • Ell June 2, 2010, 2:23 PM

    Honestly, its what you initially said, I think if they chose to convert to Judaism, there must be something wrong with them. I mean it. Why would someone covert to a life of oppression and difficulty when they can live a free and chilled out life, doing whatever they want as long as they are a good person.

    I don’t get geirim, i just dont

    • Isak June 2, 2010, 2:55 PM

      “Chilled out” is overrated….

      • Ell June 2, 2010, 3:00 PM

        Really? I don’t think so, especially when you are used to uptight folks.
        BTW, Heshy, lots of this stuff can be accomplished with a BT too. I love the fact that my ILs aren’t frum, we go there Thanksgiving or whatnot and everyone is ‘chilled’ and stuff. Its great and way better than overbearing and intrusive frum MILS that my friends always complain about.

    • Chris_B June 3, 2010, 8:02 AM

      You dont get us? Try getting to know us then.

    • Julie June 3, 2010, 6:20 PM

      Maybe you’d “get us” if you thought about us as anything other than “there must be something wrong with them.” That would be a start.

    • chaya rus alexandra November 18, 2018, 11:23 AM

      I quote from Gerim in Chassidic Thought. There are two kinds of people you meet as a ger. One marvels at your geirus and is excited that you would join him in keeping the mitzvot he so loves. The other one does not understand and thinks you must be meshuga to take up all the mitzvot that he so wishes he did not have to keep – i.e. he does not comprehend the love for Torah. The rebbe concludes, that we should distance ourselves from the latter.
      Mitzvot, for us, are the ikkar. A life of fun or oppression? That’s tofel.

      • Aryeh/Robert December 1, 2018, 12:33 AM

        Well put. At my Beit Din I was told that taking on Ol Torah was and is at all costs. So, I lost my family over it? I have a family now, mishpakha. I am a Jew. I am happy. Ma tov khelkenu. B”H.

    • Robert Rowland/Aryeh December 1, 2018, 12:28 AM

      I am a convert. Bilingual in Hebrew. Fluent in Mameloshen. Well ok I am a linguist, former US Govt and military. Former cop. I stand on my conversion, from long ago. Anyone who doesn’t accept that can meet my clumsy 65-year old self out back for a waltz down Knuckle Lane.

  • Y-Love June 2, 2010, 2:30 PM

    Ain’t nowhere more weird and cool than Baltimore. 🙂

    • Anonymous June 3, 2010, 3:32 AM

      I’d so marry y-love! he’s hot 😛

  • Kim June 2, 2010, 2:39 PM
  • Leibel June 2, 2010, 2:52 PM

    There’s no such thing as retroactively nullifying conversions (in real halacha as opposed to some people’s social POV) so your children can’t lose their status as Jews if mommy giyores goes Christian again. And last time I checked it’s FFB’s who have a problem with people going OTD. Also I would say the Syrian Takana is hateful as is the attempt to retroactively nullifying conversions (for which there’s no halachic precedent and is motivated more by a desire for political power than anything else).

    • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 3:39 PM

      Wanna bet? The Charedi rabbis in Israel do it all the time. If they decide your level of observance isn’t up to their standards at any point they can, without appeal, declare that you and your children are no longer Jewish and your marriage isn’t legitimate. They’ve also decided that marriages outside Israel aren’t kosher unless it’s from their list of rabbis. And when I say “their list of rabbis” I mean marriages a hundred years ago.

      These pronouncements are accepted by the so-called “gedolim” and supported by the Israeli government.

      • Shaul June 2, 2010, 5:31 PM

        Which in itself is another reason not to marry gerim. Who would want to have their children’s and grandchildren’s Yiddishkeit hanging in the balance? One could argue that there’s no basis in halacha for the nullification of conversions, but as things are now, this is a real problem.

        • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 9:44 PM

          It’s a reason to fight the tyranny and apostasy of the so-called “Great Ones”. They are doing their best to turn Jew against Jew and destroy our greatest strengths in the service of their own power and wealth. The fact that they speak badly-accented Yiddish, shout down anyone who isn’t just like them and cosplay dead Pollacks does not make them any better. If they are left unchecked they will absolutely destroy Israel and the Jewish people.

        • A. Nuran June 2, 2010, 11:26 PM

          The other problem is that it won’t stop with converts. Now that they’re “investigating” the Jewish ethnicity of people with Jewish maternal ancestry going back hundreds of years it will become a witch hunt. The legal assumption now is that you aren’t a Jew unless they say you are, unless you can prove your ancestors were Jewish as far back as they care to check and were married by rabbis on their approved list.

          It’s pretty obvious where this will end. Anyone who isn’t exactly the right sort of Syrian or Ashkenazi will be declared a Gentile and no longer a citizen of Israel. Of course, for a small fee and sworn lifetime obedience to particular Great Old Ones these irregularities in Racial Purity of the Blood might be overlooked…

          • Anonymous June 3, 2010, 1:55 AM

            it is really a problem with the immigration policy, because anybody is allowed to immigrate to israel if they claim to convert or have 1 jewish grandparent so they have to be investigated and all that. Israel needs to change its rules about immigration, it is not practical.

            Anyway I don’t think I’d marry a convert, real jews are annoying enough! 😉

        • Aryeh December 1, 2018, 12:37 AM

          So, I’d fight. Haredim can’t take it away from me…. and we have crossed paths in the past. I still carry a few dvar torah in my heart from a Yid named Shlomo.

      • feivelbenmishael June 3, 2010, 1:17 AM

        I am not sure about this but I think the way it works is that they only approve the conversion “al tenai (on the condition of) a b and c.”
        In halacha, when tenaim are not fulfilled, things can retroactively be nullified.

  • Esther June 2, 2010, 3:41 PM

    I don’t know about converts being hotter than Jewish women. I happen to be Jewish and think I’m hot stuff 😉 so is my convert friend and so are many, nay, all of my female friends, Jewish and non-Jewish. For every look there is someone out there who’ll find it attractive and there are great looking Jews and non-Jews (and not so great looking Jews and non-Jews). I guess its a matter of individual taste and you’re looking for a girl with shiksappeal who is technically Jewish, it seems. Nothin’ wrong with that and I hope it works out for you.

  • Realistically Religious June 2, 2010, 3:49 PM

    In all honesty Heshy, would you consider marrying a girl who is frummer than you or not religious at all? I kind of detected the double standard in you article.

    Maybe we should all strive to marry chasidim since they are also on a higher level of spirituality than we are, no? While they are at it, the MO shouldn’t rule out people from a more Yeshivish background as potential suitors. It would be nice if we could encourage someone with Religious Zionist leanings to date a Satmar chosid as well. Why only restrict yourself to people who share a commonality with you? Irrefutably, I admire people who leave the lifestyle they grew up with to embrace the fundamentals of Judaism at their own will. We shouldn’t discriminate against converts and BT’s but on the other hand its no ones position and certainly not your’s to guilt trip us for not choosing to marrying them. Its understandable in many levels why people prefer to marry someone who comes from a similar background as they do. Perhaps it would be advisable for converts to marry other converts or BT’s if nothing else. I personally don’t have anything against converts. I am not going to marry someone in spite of their religious status either. Just because people choose not to marry outside of their circles does not make them hateful or intolerant of others. I don’t necessarily have to prove my acceptance of gerim by marrying them. If we are bigots for not marrying converts then you are being selfish for not going out with girls who are not in your ballpark.

    • Anonymous June 2, 2010, 4:14 PM

      > Maybe we should all strive to marry chasidim since they are also on a higher level of spirituality than we are, no?

      No. Really, really no.

      Why do people seem to think that a person’s/group’s holiness can be measured by the amount of dead animal he wears on his head?

      • Dave June 2, 2010, 4:21 PM

        What!

        And all these years I was going to the The Household Cavalry Regiment with shailah’s….

    • Heshy Fried June 2, 2010, 6:47 PM

      Yes and Yes – I was engaged to a girl frummer than myself and the girl that I was just in relationship with for 10 months and wanted (still want to) marry is not frum at all. Well scratch that her kitchen in kosher because of me.

    • Mara Fey June 2, 2010, 11:43 PM

      “Perhaps it would be advisable for converts…”

      Oh? And who will consider the children of two converts legitimately JEWISH? Isn’t it bad enough when you hear someone whispering, “His mother is a giyoress” but to hear, “Both his parents are gerim!”

      I think NOT.

  • McLawyerson June 2, 2010, 3:54 PM

    I’d date a convert if I weren’t a kohen. Why shouldn’t I? Same with a baalas teshuva. I’d feel much more secure religiously with a wife who I knew had really come to her own understanding and acceptance of yiddishkeit, and hadn’t come from a dogmatic, factory BY/seminary.

  • Chaya June 2, 2010, 4:54 PM

    “They are usually hotter than us Jews”.
    That bothered me.
    We are perfectly good looking; however, we are Tznius.
    That may be the reason that you don’t see us as HOT.
    But we’re more than that.
    I hope you and everyone else will realize that.

    Now I’ll read the rest of the list.

    • Shaul June 2, 2010, 5:07 PM

      So gerim are not tznius?

      • Chaya June 2, 2010, 6:24 PM

        Good point.

    • A. Nuran June 4, 2010, 1:07 PM

      Well, the “Don’t touch. Don’t look. Don’t think. Even imagining will damn you to eternal torment,” thing is a bit of a buzzkill. That said, there’s no reason for you to get angry when someone is honest about what he feels. And as the side conversations have pointed out there are good biological reasons why people who are a little different are going to be more alluring, especially with a population so inbred we have to get tests for lethal recessives before we marry each other.

  • Leibel June 2, 2010, 10:44 PM

    The problem with “nullifying” conversions is that there’s no halachic basis for it. It reflects social biases/political power games more than anything else. Every halachic source which is what we follow (not the politically and socially motivated statements of human beings) says that once someone converts they’re Jewish forever, repeat forever.

    • Chris_B June 3, 2010, 8:05 AM

      Much of the song and dance routines which go with conversion these days have no basis in halacha anyway, its almost all up to local minhag. The Shulchan Arukh and Talmud have surprisingly little to say on the matter and are AMAZINGLY tolerant compared to even Reform conversion these days.

  • Rishona June 2, 2010, 11:49 PM

    And THIS is why I love this blog! 😀

  • kissmeimshomer.wordpress.com June 3, 2010, 12:14 AM

    what makes u think they won’t go crazy when they catch u looking at porn??

    • Yisca June 3, 2010, 10:13 AM

      I am a convert and I’m sorry to say that I would go nuts at my husband for looking at porn…

  • Sergey Kadinsky June 3, 2010, 12:44 AM

    “They wont go crazy when they catch you looking at porn”

    Good luck finding someone that tolerant, Heshy!

    As for me, I am open to the prospect of marrying a Jew from a different background, because in the end, we are all Jews.

    • Rishona June 3, 2010, 7:05 AM

      On the porn thing…..

      I am not married; but I don’t see myself going crazy over catching my SO watching porn. I don’t think it is good….or productive. But I put it into the same category as smoking cigarettes or marijuana. If you want to engage in that type of activity in your free time…whatever.

      A bigger issue with porn is that in most cases you are fantasizing about the unobtainable and taking for granted what you already have. That would upset me more than the porn itself. However you can have that from someone who does not watch porn; but who stays out all the time with his/her friends instead of spending time with their spouse family.

      So in a nutshell, I guess with me, it matters more so the underlying and surrounding issues around a ‘bad behavior’ more so than the behavior itself (for example…I would not rule out a smoker as a shidduch because there are smokers….and there are SMOKERS).

      I have a hard time believing that they way I feel is a ‘convert’ thing though…

      • Chris_B June 3, 2010, 11:01 AM

        “A bigger issue with porn is that in most cases you are fantasizing about the unobtainable and taking for granted what you already have. ”

        From my “past life” I can clearly state that was not my experience. This is not the place to go into detail however.

        • Anonymous June 6, 2010, 1:02 AM

          This is my experience. I like the porn, unfortunately, but it is not good for my marriage, overall.

  • Yisca June 3, 2010, 10:19 AM

    What about children of a frum gerim mother? Would they be discriminated aswel?

  • Anonymous June 3, 2010, 3:09 PM

    Shiksa/ger – If I may ask, are you a “ger” or “shiksa”? Im just a little confused, lol.

    • shiksa/ger June 4, 2010, 11:24 AM

      the “/” is symbolic
      to be honest, i can’t answer this for a little while longer

      • Esther June 4, 2010, 1:10 PM

        In that case, hang in there. I remember how anxious my friend was and how excited she was when everything became official.

  • Julie June 3, 2010, 6:11 PM

    I never understood the hate (think of the possibilities: Shabbos goys = in-laws!) but maybe it’s because I’m converting Conservative and it’s basically frum-lite: shomer shabbos, family purity and all that is included, but we have women rabbis and gay marriages and don’t care about who’s a kohen or whatever. Also, no mechitza.

  • Mr. Cohen June 3, 2010, 8:47 PM

    I trace my kohen ancestry to Tanach times, so for me, marrying a giyoret is not an option.
    ____________________________________________
    To receive quick Jewish Torah quotes, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DerechEmet/
    and click on: JOIN THIS GROUP.

    • A. Nuran June 4, 2010, 10:50 AM

      Anyone who thinks he can trace his ancestry back six generations is a fool or a dupe.

      • A. Nuran June 4, 2010, 10:54 AM

        That one will need some explanation…

        We know from genetic tests that worldwide, across all studied populations at least ten percent of children born in wedlock could not have been fathered by their mothers’ husbands. Do the math.

        • Phil June 4, 2010, 11:57 AM

          Nuran,

          Genetic tests have been done on Kohanim, over 90% all have a genetic trait that isn’t found anywhere else. I personally know Kohanim that have passed the test, which traces the trait back to the common ancestor living in the time period of matan Torah.

          As for the tests you refer to, don’t use the general population as an example for frum Jews. Anyone that believes that 10% of frum Jews are mamzeirim needs a shrink.

          • A. Nuran June 4, 2010, 1:32 PM

            Strange. I have the Kohan gene, and there’s not a single acknowledged Kohen in my family tree. Ethiopian Jews have it, and the Blackhats deny they’re even Jews.

            • Phil June 4, 2010, 1:40 PM

              Nuran,

              I guess it’s more than likely that you have a Kohain somewhere along the line. From what I’ve heard, it’s a dominant gene passed down by males (like the kehuna).
              That would explain how you can have Ethiopian / black kohanim.

              As for the mamzer stats, do you honestly believe that there is a 10% chance that you are one?

  • Ger June 5, 2010, 11:12 PM

    Listen to my story. My father is jeWish my mother not. My forth child came doWn With a rare jeWish genetic desease. From the 2 bad genes he received from my Wife a jeWish version and guess What , the bad gene i have came doWn from my goyish mother. So dont think youre immune from jeWish genetic illnesses by marrying outside the jeWish gene pool,

  • Elisheva June 7, 2010, 3:57 PM

    being a convert i would like to add to you wonderful list the fact that our siblings make awesome shabbos goys for vacations and the like. 🙂

  • elisheva June 7, 2010, 4:00 PM

    being a convert our siblings make awesome shabbos goys for vacations and the like 😉

  • mark June 8, 2010, 8:45 PM

    Can anyone help me connect with some nice convert women. I’m divorced 46m professional? please write to p9172@hotmail.com.

    • Rishona June 9, 2010, 7:05 AM

      Why seek out converts specifically Mark?

      • Anonymous June 9, 2010, 9:54 AM

        Did you even read the blog?

  • Anin June 14, 2010, 3:23 PM

    I didn’t notice that anyone here mentioned that there is a mitzvah to love the ger. So if you marry a ger you get an inbuilt lifelong mitzvah.

    Maybe it is different in Israel, but I know many gerim who married JFB in Israel. I’ve been out with four myself, two were super-shtark hareidi, and two seemed to be lite. It didn’t work out with them for them for the same reason it didn’t work out with anyone else. Just not compatible.

    For the people who don’t get it why people convert, for want of a better expression, I would describe it as a Jewish neshama trapped inside a gentile body.

  • Anonymous June 22, 2010, 10:06 AM

    “Geirim are on a very high madreiga. Just not as high as people born Jewish. I really dont mean to offend, we are commanded to love geirim, but nowhere does it say they are on a higher madreiga. Hope that helps.”

    To whoever made this comment,

    You are about as wrong as a human can be. Nowhere does it say that anyone is on a higher status than other people. Judaism is a meritocracy. Torah knowledge and understanding takes precedence over everything.

    The reason that some people are born into religious lineage (frum from birth) and others are not is that G-d loved them enough to make them Jews but did not trust them enough to find Him by themselves.

    A convert was given a test that no born Jew (BT’s are the exception) can understand. That is a privelage and honor that is rare. That is a test you were never given…

    • Anonymous June 22, 2010, 10:45 AM

      You are right that it is an honor and privelage. However you are worng about everything else as John said earlier “they are mutar to marry a mamzer, forbidden to marry a kohein. and cant hold certain postitions like sanhedrin. Zechus avos is a concept often used, which they dont have (yitzchaks tefila wa anwered before Rivkas because he had his fathers zechusim on his side, while her parent were full fledged goyim . )”
      Now again Im sorry if I offended you, I realize I wasnt as PC as people usually are about this topic, but these are facts, I didnt make the rules

  • Anonymous June 23, 2010, 5:23 PM

    Converts, don’t listen to the rabble on this posts about converts being below born-Jews. Converts prayers go straight to G-d. This moron above is going out of his way to make himself feel superior. He has a deep seated insecurity and apparently likes to post anonymously that converts are below born-Jews and “these are the facts.” “I didn’t make the rules” and my personal favorite “sorry if offended you.” These are not the facts and these are not rules. Ask an Orthodox rabbi, not some loser clown who goes out of his way to use put converts down. Keep your head up high.

    • Anonymous #2 June 23, 2010, 6:25 PM

      I am the first anonymous poster who likes posting anonymously unlike the second one who mocks those who do (are you a fan of irony?).
      I agree completly don’t listen to anything i said it wasnot geared to you I guess i have a depp seated insecurity or of course it was a factual response to a previous commenter- doesnt matter, your prayers go straight to god, I hope youre mochel me if what I said offended you, although all was factually correct (a point not disputed by anonymous #2 other than to say ” its not the fact and the rules” what a shrewed intellectual analysis) it was not geared to you.

  • Anonymous #8278 June 24, 2010, 6:01 AM

    When you learn punctuation & grammer, I will address you more. Until then, I don’t think you are in any position to comment on such complex issues such as mamzerim, gerim, kohen marriage restrictions, positions of authority with relations to converts or descendents of converts, etc. Especially when you comment that other people are better than others. These issues are very hard to understand as it is.

    • Anonymous #2 June 24, 2010, 10:54 AM

      My dear ignoramus #8278. I dont need your help understanding thanks though.
      You stick to punctuation and grammer (incidently, is that your thing just saying “these are not the facts” and “learn punctuation & grammer” without any real critiscim?), leave torah concepts to the big boys. Thanks for playing.

  • Anonymous 8278 June 24, 2010, 11:25 AM

    Friend, anytime you want to play, I’ll play. Shabbat Shalom.

    • Anonymous #2 June 24, 2010, 4:29 PM

      Theres a tumult brewing as for YI having a rule that geirm cant be shul presidents over on the “Can someone tell me whats wrong with having a woman as a shul preisdent?” have fum pewing your nonsense there.
      I sugest piping in with a simple “Its not true” that seems to be your style, anything meaningful is way above your level.

      • Anonymous 3q454 June 24, 2010, 5:30 PM

        With Torah scholars like you, this world will be an enlightened place. I feel you are very smart and eager. But there is a level of Torah that is above you. If you keep at it, you will be able to understand one day. I know you will get there one day.

  • shulala28 May 9, 2011, 1:04 PM

    Thank you so much for that posting! It is truly heartwarming! I converted orthodox at the tender age of 20, reconverted l’chumra at the age of 23 (ultra frum). Was ultra frummy (Deep down I still am), young, fairly good looking (I had the classic cookie cutter bais yaakov looks, black hair, light skin, totally tzniusdig and soft spoken manners) – i just did not have any yichus. When I was sent on dates the guys just weren`t my type-I mean why did they always try to fix me up with blond guys? (born jews!)
    I ended up being 28 now and am still not married-but who cares?

  • LeftWingPharisee August 2, 2011, 6:49 PM

    Not only did a marry a Giyorus, I went interracial. I think it gives me major cool points.

    B”H, my right wing Frum family just loves her to pieces…

    • Yisca August 2, 2011, 11:57 PM

      I’m now your number one fan 🙂 People like you give me motivation and reasons to keep my head up high being a convert.
      thank you..

  • Child of convert September 4, 2012, 6:50 AM

    My mother is a convert and my Inlaws had a huge problem with their son marrying a convert…..

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