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Dear Heshy: what do you think about non-kosher gum, shomer negiah and body piercings?

Dear Heshy,

Hi, my name is Wished to remain anonymous. I am a big (not as in size) fan of your Frum Satire blog. I first stumbled on it about a year ago when a friend showed me your posts on “Shomer Negiah categories“, and have been reading it daily ever since. Your blog has been a great source of entertainment for me and I love reading it, as I love Jewish humor, as well as reading and writing…I always have a lot of random opinions and sometimes I write but not often.
I am in college and currently very stressed out over work, assignments, papers and finals and reading your blog has been a great way to give myself a laugh here and there when I need a break and remind myself that life isn’t always this stressful and unhappy. I myself am a Jewish Modern Orthodox girl if I have to categorize …however I feel like I fall somewhere in between MO-Machmir and MO-Liberal..just shows how confusing categories are even though they are very fun to read about.

Having been a reader of your blog for a while, I have come up with a few questions slash observations that kind of reminded me of Frum Satire in general. I guess your input on them would be cool, not necessarily published on your blog (she gave me permission), but just in general since I enjoy reading your thoughts on these kinds of things:

Just a disclaimer: I may sound kind of resentful, but I really do like being Jewish. However, I like being Modern Orthodox and I don’t like this brainwashed-seminary age. I honestly feel like I would have been much better off being born 20-30 years earlier, when there were mixed singles events and Orthodox people were allowed to interact with the opposite sex and it was normal to only cover hair on Shabbos etc….Old school modern Orthodoxy.

For example, my friends parents met at places like singles Shabbatons (And not the kind for desperate 30 somethings, they used to have them for college age students), singles dances, and other events. I think that is so cool and would love to have things like that but I know that they would NEVER happen nowadays in Orthodox circles (or if they did nobody would want to attend)

Her questions are in bold and I split them up in order to answer them to the best of my knowledge:

1) I know you live in California, but are you planning to ever come back to New York in the somewhat-near future and give a show or something? Or at least meet fans?

I have done dozens of shows in New York; I have kind of given up on organizaing my own shows. It takes a lot of work, everyone says they are going to show up and then, Im lucky if 25 people show up. If someone wants to bring me in and organize the show I am game. Singles events are really what I should be doing, I just think I am off the radar screen due to the fact I dont have an agent or any help with what I do. Maybe when I come back to New York next (thinking of coming for succos) I may arrange something.

2) I have a somewhat random topic that I have not stumbled upon on your blog (if it is there and I did not find it, sorry)-frum girls and body piercings.

Ooh I like it already.

Is having a second ear piercing untznius?

Untznius is so relative, if you have to even ask that means some people may find it untznius, I myself think it’s hot but, then if it’s hot that may mean it’s untznius. I always thought earrings should be banned, they seem too attracting and they also allow the woman to have some sort of property to sell of should she need to. I thought the man owns everything, but in an extreme case the woman would definitely have to resort to selling earrings and we would to limit their abilities in terms of property and math, because I’ve been told that math is untznius – it forces women to look up and they may stretch their necks and allow their collarbones to be seen accidentally.

What about other body piercings such as a belly ring if nobody sees it?

Nobody sees a married chassidish ladies hair but, we shave it off anyway because we don’t want to take the chance of a child or the wind grabbing the turban. Kal Vachomer (insert thumb dip) belly rings which no tznius woman would ever show to anyone but her husband are not allowed, due to the simple fact that, like an erect nipple, you may see the outline and get ideas. I personally love belly button rings on a nice flat stomach, it must be flat, please no lumps ladies.

My brother dated a girl with a nipple ring, which was very cool. In Ohr Someyach during my year it was all the rage to have tongue rings (which led me to believe that everyone was blowing each other) and I met this frum kid once who had an eyebrow ring. But, my absolute favorite ring on girls is the nose stud and fortunately for me, it is relatively acceptable in the frum community to have one, I say relatively because in Israel everyone has one and in America the frum hippie girls have them.

My friends who have attended pretty frum seminaries told me that most schools will allow two piercings in each ear but not more. But what is technically wrong with it? Is it the “look?”.

Seminaries are only preparing the young ladies for the next mishkan, when they will bask in Gods glory by donating their rings to the construction project, notice that these seminaries are all in Israel. If all seminaries had their way, they would implant computer chips with Paysach Krohn and Rav Pam speeches all day in the seminary girls heads, continually reminding them of their duties to their husband and to being a bas yisroel.

Yet on the other hand some MO people I know (well more their mothers) say that a girl with more than one piercing in each ear isn’t proper and that if she wants to get married she should only have one piercing in each ear. But what is really wrong with it? Or are these moms just old-fashioned?

Pretty soon we will all be old and something else will be considered old fashioned, for now, it’s an upper earring that is old fashioned. Proper girls have one piercing, no hanging earring and always wear their hair in a pony tail – of course the girls I know are the types who debate if they should wear underwear or not, so I may not be the right person to ask.

However, if one person’s mom thinks this way won’t a lot of them think this way, particularly potential Shadchanim?

Welcome to the stupid and crazy world of shidduchim. Shidduchim are broken because of political affiliation, table cloth color and yichus – there is no reason that a slutty second ear piercing wouldn’t do the same.

3) What do you think about women and careers?

What like turning tricks and stuff?

I always wondered when frum women were going to start becoming mules for the coke industry, seems like a great way to pay for pricey yeshiva tuition, than when they get thrown in jail they can say they had no idea what they were doing.

I want to go to law school after my completion of undergraduate level.

Phew, you cleared that up, I was about to ask you for an interview having never met a frum “working girl”. I cannot even fathom anything wrong or controversial about women having careers. Actually I lied, working girls are a huge problem in our community and we need to find a way to stop this terribly untznius situation, it’s hard to justify a woman leaving the kitchen. It’s a catch 22, if the women don’t work, how will the men sit around and debate whether their oxen gored their friends oxen.

I knew (not as in the Biblical sense) a guy frummer than myself and he was very against the idea of women having careers. He thinks women who are doctors and lawyers are “bigheaded egotistical and will cause problems and have attitude” who “think they are all that because they earn a lot of money.”

The sexism makes me sick. So men don’t have this problem? Last time I checked, there were plenty of egotistical (just realized it sounds like testicle) men who made loads of money.

He told me that I should realize the roles that Torah gives women and men and that women should be praised if they want to not work and raise children. However, isn’t this a huge paradox? If a woman wants to go to law school or medical school can she really live the frum young-marriage lifestyle? Especially because: (see 4)

What exactly is the “frum young marriage lifestyle”? You mean the one where the husband comes home from his day managing and nursing home and you make him dinner and then he goes to learn at a night seder while you sit around and read recipes from kosher by design. Or does it mean that you are on federal assistance, supported by your already strapped parents and never see your husband because he’s always “learning”.

4) My friend learned that married women aren’t really supposed to go on birth control. Even for financial reasons the pill is a big issue and one would need special permission from a Rabbi.

Well if you spill your seed we know where that leads…sticky sheets. It is generally accepted that birth control is not cool unless you get permission from a rabbi and trust me, you can get permission – because if you couldn’t everyone would have 15 kids.

However, I honestly feel like the school she studied at was just using propaganda because when I was in high school my teacher who is a Rebbitzen of an Orthodox Shul told us that married women are allowed to use birth control.

Propaganda is relative, orthodoxy has loads of propaganda, you ever read any of those artscroll rebbe biographies?

So if you get married at 21 and can’t use birth control how can you have a career?

Aha (insert thumb dip) – this is why you’re modern orthodox.

Or have an enjoyable married life at all?

Seems like plenty of folks have kids right away and have plenty of enjoyment. The difference between them and you, is you are really horny and view marriage as a key to getting laid, or at least it seems like it.

It’s like…you can’t have sex and then when you can you really can’t just for the sake of enjoying your newlywed lives, you have to worry about getting pregnant before you want to?

If you want to have sex for the sake of having sex, why not have premarital sex? Why go through the whole marriage thing if you don’t want kids? (that’s the frummy answer by the way) I wouldn’t know of such things, I’m shomer negiah, I couldn’t even tell you how an erection feels, though I heard it hurts.

5) I noticed that Frum people call a lot of halacha related issues “problems”.

Did you notice that they call all social issues “crisis”? The tuition crisis, the Indian hair crisis, the shidduch crisis, the bugs in the water crisis. You would think that halachic issue would be a crisis and the social issues would be problems.

For example, a frum guy I know told me that it would be a “problem” if he were to be dating a girl who did not want to cover her hair after marriage.

Wait, I don’t understand how he could be frum and talking to you, if you aren’t related or on a shidduch date? Obviously he views hair covering as more of a social thing than a problem, if his shadchan found out her were talking so casually with you he would be blacklisted and devalued in the shidduch market place.

Some people I know who attended seminary say things such as “there are problems with Zionism” or “Girls wear short black skirts and black tights when their knees are really showing this is so untznius and such a problem”. Chas veshalom.

Don’t even get me started on frum girls showing their knees, it’s one of the biggest problems facing our community. It’s almost as bad as store bought challah. It causes tzaras, do you know how many men have went off the derech and worse, because they showed their knees, those hot sexy, wobbly, pale white knees.

Why problems, why not another word? I guess life is just full of problems:

What would be another word? Issues, crisis – can you imagine the Yated readers write section filled with stories of the Knees Crisis?

6) What’s so bad about half-covering your hair? (If it wasn’t obvious already I’m not currently married, engaged, or even dating anyone right now but I am very split about the issue of covering.) Or not covering it at all.

It help if I knew where you attended school, full hair covering is halacha, half hair covering makes you feel like you are keeping something when you are not. Married woman’s hair is ervah same level as her vag or boobs, why can’t you show half your boobs?

I feel like it’s almost more like a social sign now than anything else.

It is social, but it is halacha and biblical halacha for that matter, although many folks believe that the halachic sources are flawed.

Some of my friends have said that they don’t really want to cover their hair when they get married but they don’t want to be the odd one out in their group of friends, the “one who doesn’t cover her hair”.

I can’t relate to the issue, I hear it’s quite tough to deal with, but keeping shabbos and kosher is tough and I deal. You do it or you don’t. Or you do it like my non-religious friends who grew up frum do it, they cover their hair in social situations and don’t the rest of the time. You will find time and time again that people in the frum community do not want to be the first one to do things, like make weddings they can afford, allow their daughters to pursue the guys they want and have a colored tablecloth.

My parents always tell me how in their generation only the “really frum Charedi” women covered their hair full time and no matter how many times I explain it they do not understand that people who fall within the realm of “Modern Orthodox” today cover their hair. To them, women fully covering their hair all the time is like the antithesis of modern Orthodoxy.

Used to be the antithesis of modern orthodoxy, things are a changing – to the left to the right. Things never stay stagnant. I love when people say that no one covered their hair back in the day, that’s great but, tons of people also had to work in shabbos to survive – should we all start working on shabbos? Also, all of the old pictures from the shtetl books I have seen have everyone with their hair covered.

7) In fact, I feel like the whole seminary and flipping out thing is a very social movement, you can’t tell me that all of these girls and boys are so holy just because they went and got brainwashed.

They usually don’t stay so holy, you can usually talk to people my age about when they “frummed” out in Israel and they reminisce about not knowing what the heck was flying. I, like everyone else, has watched dozens of people frum out, frei out and burn out over the years. Many of the folks who frum out in their year, regain their normal selves after they come home, some do not, there’s no problem with it.

They were just like any other M.O Jew beforehand…some of them seem like mindless members of a flock and I just don’t buy that. Maybe I am just missing some enlightenment or something, but I did not attend seminary and I do consider myself religious, just “not soo frum”..I like to think for myself.

I think someone wrote a book about this, I’ll tell you the one bad thing that happens when all these MO kids frum out, shomer negiah. You had all these smoking hot modern orthodox girls ripe for the taking and suddenly they are a bunch of semi tznius teases that won’t put out, puts a real damper on things.

8) What about girls who weren’t always Shomeret but were playing around with the idea of trying it and decided to, then dated a frummer boy who was always Shomer who ruined it when he dated her?

So you’re saying that some girl broke a guys negiah (so strange) I have no qualms with that, the girl was sent by the Lord as the yetzer harah fill in and she got the guy to sin. I hope it was good at least, because my experience (I mean I have only heard this) is that inexperienced folks kind of suck (they know not what to do)

From personal experiences and what I have seen around me, girls who try this kind of get scammed. The boy says that he wasn’t just taking advantage. But would he really have tried that on an innocent Shomeret girl?

Of course not, haven’t you heard that modern orthodox girls are for practice?

And yet he won’t even admit he broke his Shomer Negiya, or let the girl say anything, because it “may ruin his reputation”. It just seems to me that if a girl is Shomeret and a guy who wants to date her isn’t, he will take it on for her and be very respectful about it.

Can you tell me what the point of dating is? I mean you don’t mention that this is for marriage, non-marriage dating is always for sex, or some sort of sexual stimulation – along with companionship.

Yet if the girl wasn’t always Shomeret and is “with it”, even if she hasn’t been all the way around the block, I feel like many guys will use this knowledge to their advantage.

Duh, of course it’s like that. Who wouldn’t take advantage? If it’s not for marriage, I just don’t understand the point of a shomer negiah relationship?

As my high school teacher told my class, “Put a Shomer boy and a non-Shomeret girl together and the boy won’t be Shomer anymore”. It just seems so blatantly hypocritical, especially when the guy won’t even admit that he did things with the girl. And as much as he may insist that A) He wasn’t taking advantage or B) She was being a tease and that wasn’t fair..etc, it still seems like deep down he looks as her as a “less frum girl, so she must be a slut who can be taken advantage of”, kind of like another blogpost you once put up.

Welcome to the world of reputations and protecting yourself against rumors that may devalue your shidduch market value. At my age, most of the folks I know are mature enough to tell a girl whom they are in shidduchim with that they are experienced in the field.

9) What about Nonkosher gum? (Such as Five or Stride) I heard that the opinion of Rav Ovadiah says it is permissible. Even some of my old Rabbis in high school said that technically it isnt forbidden but do not tie their names to this answer.

I think a lot of what Rav Ovadia says gets taken out of context, notice how it’s always something he said at shaloshudos, people don’t remember what happened 10 minutes ago, I can’t stand transcribing, it’s ridiculous. You may say gum is not food and therefore it’s fine. I have heard from numerous people that tasting non-kosher wine is cool because you don’t swallow it – I don’t buy it. Is non-kosher gun really such a desire of yours that you need to find a heter. You can buy yourself a heter if you want. I have always thought that the difference between modern orthodox and frum, was that frum folks weren’t trying to justify their wrongdoing, while modern orthodox were always trying to find ways out of halacha, by saying it wasn’t halacha or finding heterim, etc…

However, many say it is a huge problem and are starting to make me feel guilty.

Don’t you love the guilt, it means you still have some frum juice. When you stop feeling guilty you have issues. Seriously, I would think keeping kosher was more important than a stick of gum. If you had issues with eating non-kosher meat I would give you credit, but breaking kosher for gum is kind of lame. Then again, kasharus means enough to me that I don’t take any chances.

Is drugstore gum really a problem? It would stink if it is, because Must gum is kind of disgusting and loses its taste in ten seconds flat.

Gum is so 1985!

Sorry that this email was so long!

Long is right.

{ 65 comments… add one }
  • veebee May 16, 2010, 3:27 PM

    Apparently 5 is kosher in Israel.

  • Racheli May 16, 2010, 4:42 PM

    veebee, so is Trident, Orbit, etc, in Israel. They actually have hashgacha there. It’s not just imported gum with hechsherim stuck on them.

    Also, is “breaking a guy’s negiah” something some girls are proud of?

  • this whole thing is a crock... May 16, 2010, 5:36 PM

    …To satisfy heshy’s cock.

  • MiMi May 16, 2010, 6:41 PM

    I thought this was pretty accurate, especially the sexist/career crap and the non-kosher gum. I mean, seriously, if you’re going for the gum…EAT PORK! gargle with lobster juice. In for a penny, in for a pound..and all that.

    • the real kosher deal July 7, 2010, 7:07 PM

      Actually pork and yayin nesach are the WORST things!pork is the most tameidika-unpure animal.pork and non kosher wine ‘Harden a persons heart’There is a total diffrence btwn gum & chazir!Eating non kosher-treife beef is bad , eating chazir is A LOT worse! (wine made by a nonjew,or kosher wine that is not cooked and the bottle is touched by a goy or irreligious jew ,renders it not kosher and therefore unfit to drink as a kosher item!

  • A. Nuran May 16, 2010, 6:55 PM

    Just a personal though on piercings…

    I’ve spent thousands of dollars and hours over the years learning how to keep people from ramming sharp pieces of metal into my body. It seems strange that people would pay money to have others do that to them. As George Rekers or Dan Savage would say “Whatever lifts your luggage.”

    • Avrumy May 17, 2010, 1:07 PM

      Hurrah, another Dan Savage reader. I bet there are more here.
      How about that pathetic George Rekers? Frank Rich has a great article about self-hating queers in Sunday’s New York Times.

  • Anon May 16, 2010, 7:04 PM

    Omg this girl sounds like a complete moron. Grow up, chick! Are you REALLY asking the Frum Satire guy for halachic answers?? What is WRONG WITH YOU???

    • BettyBlueBettyBlue May 16, 2010, 7:21 PM

      Easy there friend…

      Have you not read the title of this blog??

      Heshy, He kind of reminds me a little bit of the Vosizneias annotators.


  • Jew McLawyerson May 16, 2010, 7:22 PM

    Heshy, you may knock it, but I have had a very respectable gadol tell me that chewing gum is not derech achela, and therefore not a problem. He brought a gemarah that seemed to corroborate his statement. It would not be similar to the wine situation which you described because 1. wine generally speaking is considered to be a food-stuff (drink), 2. the issur of yayin nesach is a strict issur. As to the “male/female” interaction issue, I have to say that my opinion based, admittantly, on anecdotal evidence, is that everyone is lonely, everyone is horny, and spending alone time with members of the opposite gender is not a particularly good idea if someone is intending on keeping halacha.
    Also, I’m curious about your “flawed sources” in regards to hair-covering?

  • Anonymous May 16, 2010, 7:27 PM

    Dear Rabbi Heshy
    I didnt realise that you were taking halachic questions I too have one.
    I had two dairy spoons sitting on my counter one of which had been used that morning. I dont know which spoon it was, but I took one of the spoons and used it to stir a pot of chicken soup and then a meat stew. Am I allowed to eat the soup? the stew? what about the spoon?
    thank you

    • Baruch Atta May 16, 2010, 8:08 PM

      Leave the spoons on the counter till your wife or ozeret puts them back in the drawer. Then they are butil b’rov. Enjoy!
      The food is ok because the spoons arent ben yomo.

      • Anonymous May 16, 2010, 8:25 PM

        leaving them out for that wouldnt work because ein mevatlin issur lecatchila, (and besides i already told my wife so now what) one spoon was a ben yomo reread the question points for trying though. thats why a true expert ie Rabbi Heshy was consulted

        • Baruch Atta May 16, 2010, 9:16 PM

          Dear Anony:
          If you are such an expert, then why did you ask?
          And no, you did not say your spoon was ben yomo, and you did not say you already told your wife. Stam kailim are not ben yomo.
          If you dont touch the item, and it gets mixed up in others, then it is not ein mevatlim. Your question is resolved. If you want to go and add new conditions that is your option. You didnt say if your mother-in-law was visiting, or if your wife is in a family way. The din may change with new conditions. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included.

          • Anonymous May 16, 2010, 9:24 PM

            Allow me to qoute my original question: “I had two dairy spoons sitting on my counter one of which had been used that morning” any way you slice that comment, the spoon was a ben yomo. I didnt add any conditions you made improper assumptions as a way of avoiding the question (not bad btw and you are on the right track). If you feel uprepared for the question as it is above your pay grade, dont feel bad, let the big boys play, i always come with batteries.

          • Baruch Atta May 16, 2010, 10:34 PM

            “…one of which had been used that morning….” but you didnt say used for what. Unless you used it to stir something michich cooking on the stove (kli rishon) which is not likely, (who does that anymore?) I assumed it was used in a kli shaini (to stir coffee maybe) which does not cook and does not rend it ben yomo. With what you said, you got your answer, big boy. Anyway if you are so frum and asking shailos about spoons, do you really care?
            Who are you anyway? “On the internet, no one knows you are a dog.” Google it.

            • Anonymous May 16, 2010, 11:07 PM

              Ah you assumed. Theres no need for me to google, as I am much, much smarter than you. since you probably cant google this shailah let me help get you started.
              There is a safek which spoon was used, only one would asser the food as as you kind of realised only one is a ben yomo. For the chicken soup, since it is a derabanan so safek derabanen lehakel and the soup is fine. For the meat stew since it is dearisa it is assur. Now this is where it gets tricky, since it was the same spoon how can one be assur and one be mutar?
              There is a shmaitsa which disscusses a similar case (his case invloves a butcher who addmited that some of his meat was treif, so that which was removed would be allowed becasue kol deparush meruba parush. That which was still in his store is assur becasue kol kevua kemechtsa al mechtsa, what about a piece of meat which is known to have been removed from an animal in the store. the animal is assur and the piece is muttar how can that be?) he has 3 tzdadim: the assur one will assur the “mutr” one, or the mutar one will matir the “assur” one or the halacha remains one piece mutar one assur. It would seem that this case can be compared.
              Now the real fun begins, according to those (pri chadash and others) that not only water is needed for hagala, maybe the soup kasherd the spoon. It will also depend on how you view a safek. Is it telling you what happned or just the din
              I’d like to know the Rabbis take on halacha lemaisah

              • Schwartzie May 17, 2010, 12:12 AM


                • DrumIntellect May 17, 2010, 3:47 PM


                  • Anonymous May 17, 2010, 5:12 PM

                    please be respectful of those smarter than you

                • Anonymous May 17, 2010, 5:17 PM

                  I commented earlier, I guess it is in moderation. In it i linked to your post on taking advantage of good-natured frum people. pot dont call the kettle a pr1ck when you are the most supreme pr1ck in all the land. (not literally of course based on your one worded snide remarks im assuming its actually quite tiny, no bigger than a troll’s)

                  • Heshy Fried May 17, 2010, 5:23 PM

                    Nah his dick is kind of big, he uses it as a shinuy to turn on the air conditioner when unexpected shabbos heat waves roll in

    • Heshy Fried May 17, 2010, 4:13 AM

      Stick it in the ground

      • "Rabbi No" May 18, 2010, 3:01 PM


        You lost me… which should he stick in the ground? His dick or the spoon?

  • John May 16, 2010, 7:32 PM

    I am in a professional grad school. Recently a professor mentioned in lecture that all those who had visible piercings other than the earlobe should consider getting rid of them, as they were not “proffessional looking” I dont attend a religious institiution, the proffessor is not religious (though she may be jewish)
    Oh and Heshy, you have no idea why some chassidish woman shave their heads, (hey why not comment anyway) in case you would like to know it is a chumra for mikva it has nothing to do with ” we shave it off anyway because we dont want to take the chance of a child or the wind grabbing the turban”

  • Dave May 16, 2010, 7:57 PM

    umm…did you just quote Jesus (Luke 23:34) “father forgive them for they know now what they do” for inexperienced people in bed? I wonder how many frum readers here caught that 🙂

  • ???????? May 16, 2010, 8:00 PM

    I get different reactions to my nose piercing. Most people don’t think twice about it, but in very frum circles I do take it out just to avoid the stares.
    One shadchan actually consulted a plastic surgeon to see if he could close up the hole in my nose if it doesn’t on its own. She obviously thinks I won’t find a husband with a stud, or a hole, in my nose.
    The piercings make some people think I’m not frum or newly ba’alas teshuva and try to dumb things down or explain things. People, I probably know more than you do on certain topics. I like responding to them with something very deep and insightful just to see the embarrassed and confused looks on their faces.

    • Radical Centrist May 16, 2010, 9:04 PM

      Yes, but there is nothing nearly so much fun as then busting out a choice piece of gemara when they assume you know nothing. Though, as a Masorti/Conservative/(non)Traditional Jew, they automatically assume I know nothing and would even “Uh, so I heard you weren’t supposed to work on Saturdays for some reason.” as surprising knowledge on my part.
      – RC

    • Anonymous May 17, 2010, 11:18 PM

      Eliezer gave rivka a nose ring. I wish they were not so socially stigmatized. I would love to get one.

      • Anonymous May 17, 2010, 11:35 PM

        Yitzchak married a 3 year old, I wish it wasnt so socially stigmatized. I would love to get one. Things change, deal with it

  • HZ May 16, 2010, 8:39 PM

    I’m in law school and there are several frum girls (certainly not as many as there are frum guys). It’s rare enough for even the non-frum or non-Jewish students to have double piercings and I do not think that this would be wise if you were going to be a professional.

    • Leeba May 18, 2010, 7:29 PM

      What about penile piercings? They are hidden from the ‘public’ therefore one would still be able to look professional, right?

      • Anonymous May 21, 2010, 12:20 PM

        hidden from public defeats about 95% of the point of getting a piercing

        • Esther May 23, 2010, 6:43 PM

          I don’t know about that. I think people get it for themselves for various reasons — masochism comes to mind as one 😉 — those seeking attention will get piercings that are difficult to hide from the general public, but I don’t think that is IT for most people getting pierced. In other words, I wouldn’t generalize.

  • Shidduchmaven May 16, 2010, 9:02 PM

    “5) I noticed that Frum people call a lot of halacha related issues problems.

    Did you notice that they call all social issues crisis? The tuition crisis, the Indian hair crisis, the shidduch crisis, the bugs in the water crisis. You would think that halachic issue would be a crisis and the social issues would be problems.”

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha……. so true, so true. Great observation.

  • Baltimore Yid May 16, 2010, 11:47 PM

    I knew (not as in the Biblical sense) a guy frummer than myself and he was very against the idea of women having careers. He thinks women who are doctors and lawyers are bigheaded egotistical and will cause problems and have attitude who think they are all that because they earn a lot of money.

    I’m not frum, or even Orthodox, but when I got divorced from my first wife in the 1980’s, my lawyer was a frum Orthodox woman whose father was a local big-shot rabbi. As far as I know, she’s still practicing law, as she set up a trust for my kids (from my second marriage) a few years ago. She was a great lawyer, she gave me the legal advice I needed to negotiate the separation agreement on my own, so I not only protected my assets, I saved a lot of money on legal fees. She did insist that I give my wife a get written by a suitably frum rabbi, which was fine by me, but that’s another story.

  • ghottistyx May 17, 2010, 10:11 AM

    Even for financial reasons the pill is a big issue

    I’m sorry, what financial reasons? You know there are clinics out there where you can get free birth control. I’m not just talking about the pill, I’m also talking about the shot that works for over 3 months. And for you men out there, dare I state how EASY it is to get free condoms? Just about every doctors office/clinic has them. Some may make you fill something out, some may start asking you questions, and plenty will limit the amount you can take at once…but the point is that they’re out there.

    • Anonymous May 17, 2010, 11:22 AM

      Financial reasons as in you can’t say “I can’t afford to have kids right now so I want to use birth control”, not that birth control is expensive.

    • Anonymous May 17, 2010, 11:46 AM

      Lol, all true points but I think you missed the boat here. The “financial reasons” is not referring to the cost of the pill or birth control itself, it’s referring to being halachicly allowed to use birth control in order to prevent further financial hardship e.g. a new baby 🙂

      • ghottistyx May 17, 2010, 1:17 PM


  • Avrumy May 17, 2010, 1:13 PM

    Nipple piercings are a dime a dozen. And they are removable and heal up nicely when the novelty wears off. I know a frum gay guy who has a Prince Albert. It’s a kind of male piercing that I don’t “get”, but, as they say: whatever lifts your luggage.

    • Huh October 9, 2012, 10:02 AM

      What is a frum gay guy? Did you blow him?

  • Lubi girl May 17, 2010, 3:22 PM

    At the University I attend, (public), we are not allowed any excess body piercings that can be seen, or piercings that could otherwise be deemed unprofessional.
    Mind you, we’re not allowed wacky hair colours either, so the girl who dyed her hair bright pink sadly had to change it…

  • DrumIntellect May 17, 2010, 3:52 PM

    I think the conclusion to reach is guys will generally follow the lead of their gals. If the gal is not shomer, she probably WANTS to be touched. (And, likely, initiated the contact.) The guy will generally will acquiesce. If the gal is shomer, the guy will generally follow social norms and respect her wishes.

    I don’t think this particular letter is an indication that shomer men view non-shomer women as easy.

  • FrumCollegeGirl May 17, 2010, 5:21 PM

    Just a question about Heshy’s ervah point–so I understand that hair is ervah, but then why does a woman not have to cover her hair until after she is married but still has to be tznius even before?

    • Heshy Fried May 17, 2010, 5:26 PM

      I would refer to John on this one – but, from my logic, it seems that the ervah for a married woman’s hair is more of a spiritual ervah which only takes place after she is wed.

      • Leeba May 18, 2010, 3:38 AM

        This is the one that kills me…every time. My Nana wore scarves when travelling and cooking. I have a photo of her and of my toddler mother on the docks when they first immigrated to America. She kept her hair braided otherwise.

        I cannot even imagine my Papa, a hard working man, shelling out $1500 for a real hair wig to cover my Nana’s gorgeous waist length auburn locks when he could have bought a new bull. Or a used tractor.

        Makes no sense. Unless you are on the dole, of course.


  • Leeba May 18, 2010, 3:35 AM

    “I hope it was good at least, because my experience (I mean I have only heard this) is that inexperienced folks kind of suck (they know not what to do)”

    LMAO! (At least that is what I thought I read)

    ha ha ha

  • SF2K1 May 20, 2010, 11:20 AM

    I was talking to a woman who grew up MO talking about why she became Chabad. She mentioned one of the reasons was because she started to actually learn Halacha. While ideologically MO myself, I definitely notice that it seems to be a serious issue that some kids have no idea what is halacha, minhag, or just something that a bunch of people are completely ignoring for some weird reason. This girl is a partial example of that when she talks of the girls not wanting to cover their hair issue.

    Another example is how Cholev Yisroel is halacha (and R’ Feinstein gave us a kula which expanded that definition to a point which frummies deridingly call a heter to eat Cholev Stam), but some kids just don’t know the what or why or that it even existed. That’s more institutional. I’ve met some people who were orthodox all their lives and didn’t know that Borer (separating) was a problem on shabbos. I think some kids just didn’t pick up the full education somewhere and I’m not sure where yet. Probably people who just don’t care, I don’t know.

  • Wonndering May 23, 2010, 11:31 PM

    Does an erection really hurt?

    • Leeba May 24, 2010, 3:50 AM

      I was wondering that myself. Please, Wonndering, when and if you get one, let us know.

      Leeba Rae

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