≡ Menu

Do yeshiva guys touch girls on shidduch dates?

The following was posted with permission from the sender: My semi-serious response follows.

Hi Heshy!

I have been reading your blog on an irregular basis since about the time I came back from seminary. I have a question for which I realized you are the only person who would know the answer! Here it goes:

Once I went on a date with a pretty yeshivish guy. After the date, when back in the car, fastening our seatbelts, our arms touched quite extensively… I am still wondering if it was accidental. Do people have some kind of maneuver to avoid this on shidduch dates? I think in most cars it’s probably difficult to avoid this if both people are fastening it at the same time… It was my first shidduch date, and he said later on he just recently started driving, so it could have been his first shidduch date where he was by car…

What do you think, would guys deliberately do such things?

My response: The mere fact that he let you wear a seatbelt negates his yeshivness, any yeshivish person worth their weight in a salt would have had his passenger seatbelts taped like shabbos lights just in case you attempted to put on your belt. He would have done this because as a yeshivish person he would have high respect for public embarrassment, although none of safety. Seat belts are highly untznius, the separate the breasts and make it obvious that you are a women. This is assur and being that he not only allowed you put on your seatbelt, he didn’t even have them taped, which has led me to believe that you were on a date with a right wing modern orthodox guy that claimed to be yeshivish.

Other clues into his yeshivishness might help the commenters decide if he touched you purposefully, which I think he did. In the yeshivish dating world, touching by accident could lead to nightmares down the road. Have you ever heard the story about the girl who stepped in front of a truck and was saved by her date, who felt it more important to save her life than keep the laws of niddah? Well she rejected him on the grounds that he didn’t even have to debate with the yetzer harah whether to touch her or not, this means that his tayvas were so strong that they had already broken him down.

I have heard of embarrassing situations such as the one you described in which the folks were walking down the street and they bumped shoulders repeatedly, in the yeshivish world this is considered date rape and has grave consequences including a severe reduction in your shidduch market value. Fortunately the couple got engaged shortly after the shoulder bumping incident and now they are on a seminary speaking tour where they speak on the dangers of premarital touch.

So the answer is, yes he touched you purposefully and he probably liked it. It depends where you and him are from. It seems that BT’s and Gerim get touched because guys think they are whores, we were kind of taught that in yeshiva – every girl who isn’t frum must be a whore. Since yeshiva guys don’t know how to make a move, a little seatbelt fastening action can’t hurt.

{ 49 comments… add one }
  • Anonymous May 12, 2010, 4:06 AM

    great answer……

  • Anonymous May 12, 2010, 4:09 AM

    Thanks for the insightful answer Hesh! I am the person who originally asked the question. But, even if he touched me purposefully, I do not exactly understand what kind of pleasure he derived from it… For me, it created more a sense of intimacy, but it was nothing erotically exciting. Did he go home afterwards and jerk off thinking about it?! I mean, if, let’s say, our knees or thighs would have touched under the table, that would have been erotic, but this?!
    You see, it never even occurred to me that it could have been due to the fact that I am a BT. He attended one of the famous litvishe yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel, but his family is more modern and he studies medicine (I suppose that doesn’t make him identifiable yet).

    • Anony May 12, 2010, 6:48 AM

      As a guy, we just love to touch girls, period. It’s not always about how erotic it may or may not be, all the more so on a shidduch/date. Intentional or not he did like it, not that he “went home and jerked off” over it. If he was worried about it, he probably would have let you put on your own seatbelt and then his while avoiding you carefully… Or he just has a really small car and there’s nothing to do.

    • tesyaa May 12, 2010, 9:37 AM

      It’s awesome that a sem girl would use the term jerk off in a public forum, even anonymously

      • Anonymous May 12, 2010, 11:13 AM

        Well, I actually never lived in an English-speaking country, so being a non-native speaker of English and a BT, I learned a considerable amount of my English from South Park and from Artscroll publications. :p It’s actually hard to tell which one do people find more hilarious from time to time…
        I am sorry if this expression has shocked the audience/readership of this blog. (Frankly, I don’t think so.)

        • John May 12, 2010, 11:31 AM

          Im curious why on earth you think, frum satire would be only person who would know the answer, why would you even think he’d know the answer at all, he isnt yeshivish?

          • A. Nuran May 12, 2010, 12:25 PM

            But he has a lifetime experience being a guy.

            • John May 12, 2010, 12:47 PM

              Ah! Though although that may give him a unique vantage point, I dont think all guys are the same.( Of course if all guys are the same why would he be the only one to ask )

              • A. Nuran May 12, 2010, 8:16 PM

                I wouldn’t say all young men enjoy touching women and go out of their way to find reasons to do so.
                Just the heterosexual ones.

              • A. Nuran May 13, 2010, 1:01 AM

                Hmmm, looks like the bad words filter ate the last response…

                Not all guys like to touch girls.
                Just the hetero ones with normal hormone levels.

                • John May 13, 2010, 6:54 AM

                  Ok now I’m confused and I actually have a question for you, In your world is it normal for guys to touch girls without their permission? If it is then why didnt heshy tell this girl not to worry about it if its compleltly normal?
                  Of course you havent yet addressed why Heshy is the only one capable of answering the question?

                  • A. Nuran May 13, 2010, 1:44 PM

                    It’s not normal to touch without permission. Not normal, that is, for a kid who has grown up with sane, healthy socialization. To want to touch girls, yes. Which is what I was referring to. To do so without permission, no. And at that violation including rape is a lot more common than most would admit.

                    If they have grown up in religions which practice strict, pathological separation of the sexes like Salafism, Charedism or certain forms of Christianity it is problematic. These young men do not know how to behave socially around women. Frankly, they’re ignorant and clumsy. Ordinary desires and the normal healthy ways of dealing wit them are alien. The solution provided by their religions is a set of elaborate fierce and ever-stricter taboos designed to viciously and inflexibly constrain and prescribe a tiny set of officially approved feelings and actions.

                    Under these circumstances it is no wonder the boys do not know how to behave around girls. As another correspondent here said it leads to weird things like asking random women “Excuse me, are you a prostitute?”

                  • A. Nuran May 13, 2010, 1:52 PM

                    And it looks like the “S” word delayed this response, too. It will show up sooner or later.

                  • John May 14, 2010, 9:44 AM

                    You know precious little about the yeshivish community yet dont hesitate to voice your opinions, it is actually cute.

          • Anonymous May 13, 2010, 9:34 AM

            Because I thought he is frum enough to understand the problem, perverted enough to be interested in it, and funny enough to put together a post about it on his blog. But if it is true what another commenter has pointed out below that in the US car interiors look different and therefore they don’t pose such potential problems for shidduch dates, then I am afraid this is all irrelevant to you guys.

    • Izzy May 12, 2010, 3:28 PM

      If you really are the original poster, I sincerely hope that you didn’t take Heshy’s reponse as anything other than the satire it was intended to be. Were you looking for a more serioud answer to your question, Heshy would not be the best person to ask.

    • G*3 May 12, 2010, 4:11 PM

      > But, even if he touched me purposefully, I do not exactly understand what kind of pleasure he derived from it For me, it created more a sense of intimacy, but it was nothing erotically exciting.

      If it was on purpose, why do you assume his motive had to be erotic? Guys also like a “sense of intimacy.”

  • Nosson Gestetner May 12, 2010, 6:35 AM

    Oy vey… lol

  • Abijah May 12, 2010, 8:02 AM

    Where they bucket seats? Would a piece of plexiglass would help?

  • you are a dumbass May 12, 2010, 8:18 AM

    …And need to get a job instead of fantasizing and getting an erection thru your lame blog.

    Looser.

    • zalmy FNY silver May 12, 2010, 9:18 AM

      ^^^^^^^ hah! owned, hesh!

  • Esther May 12, 2010, 9:21 AM

    :):):) Trying not laugh out loud, since I am at work. Awesome post.

  • wow hesh May 12, 2010, 10:18 AM

    you should start an advice column

  • rachel May 12, 2010, 10:42 AM

    “premarital touch” LMAO!

  • John May 12, 2010, 11:35 AM

    I love dating myths! My friend’s neighbor went skiing on a date, the skilift got stuck and he convinced her to jump down to avoid yichud up on the skilift.
    My cousin’s friend was on a date and the girl grabbed the keys and threw them out the window. When he asked her why she did that, she replied it was a test to see if you’d get angry, and you passed. He said well you failed and took her home.

    • Anonymous May 12, 2010, 12:04 PM

      Technically the ski lift isn’t a myth. My Business Law Prof. told us of a case that happened in NY where a girl jumped off because of Yichud. The only difference is it wasn’t a date. The irony is that they were there as part of a mixed group.

      • Heshy Fried May 12, 2010, 1:19 PM

        Wasn’t the ski lift thing a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode, it’s totally a myth.

        • John May 12, 2010, 1:46 PM

          I thought so too but i googled it turns out its real (i googled yichud skilift it was the second hit, a Time magazine report)

          • Izzy May 12, 2010, 3:32 PM

            I have seen the actual judicial decision.

          • A. Nuran May 13, 2010, 5:31 AM

            Second that. On searching I found everything from a lawyer/rabbi’s shiur on the halachic issues combined with the court decision to archival accounts in Time magazine. It happened. The legal decision is duly recorded.

  • DrumIntellect May 12, 2010, 12:35 PM

    Very funny!

    I was expecting a pregnancy in the paragraph about accidental shoulder touching. 🙂

  • Avrumy May 12, 2010, 2:01 PM

    Ski Lift Yichud?????
    For heaven’s sake, just roll down the window. 🙂

  • Heshy Fried May 12, 2010, 2:14 PM

    The ski lift was a 1963 episode – it was published in Time Magazize

  • Leibel May 12, 2010, 3:35 PM

    The dangers of premarital touch – LOL!!!!!

  • Baruch Atta May 12, 2010, 3:40 PM

    Well, let’s take this seriously at first.
    Negia is not what you think it is.
    Shaking hands is not negia.
    Bumping, like on the subway, is not negia. (according to Rav Moshe)
    In essence, the real issur of nagia is kissing, petting and things that are sexual in nature. Just coming in contact, putting a seat belt, passing the salt, and so on, is not an issur negia .
    You might ask, what about passing the salt between husband and wife in nidda? Totally different din. Dont confuse the dinim.
    Social contact, even a quick peck on the cheek of your aunt Matilda is not nagia. If you start to like it, then it’s negia.
    At least, that is my understanding of this din.

    So, if the guy who put your seat belt enjoyed it, then it was negia. If otherwise, and he was treating you as if you were like a sister, then it was not an issur.

    Negia is in the eyes (and hands) of the beholder.

    Now, the “My Response” is entirely funny and not serious. Ha and ha. I wish that people would learn halacha if they want to keep halacha. Especially on the subject of nagia, which I am very touchy about, please dont hurt my feelings.

  • Tirtza Zusa May 12, 2010, 5:29 PM

    My opinion: accidents do happen and intentional “accidents” do happen.

    I think usually you can get a feel from the rest of the date whether he is the type to have pulled something sneaky.

  • Tradition May 12, 2010, 10:03 PM

    Please explain how your arms touched while buckling your seatbelts? In most cars I know (produced after circa 1960) there is a center consule forming a physical barrier between the driver and passenger side seatbelt recepticle. As such, I believe your story to be entirelly fictious and possible even bull crap. Best of luck trying to make up more believable stories next time and pass them off on less astute individuals. Additionially I would expect better from frumsatire than to put up unfounded stories. This makes You no better than CNN.

    P.S. Zeigezunt

    • Anonymous May 13, 2010, 9:20 AM

      As I have already made it clear above, I am not American and have no idea what kind of cars you have in America, but all the cars I have ever sat in have two black thingies with a red receptacle situated tightly just next to each other, in between the driver’s seat and the front passenger’s seat. I do not exactly know what kind of center console you are referring to and I have never seen such a thing before whatsoever.

    • Anonymous May 13, 2010, 9:22 AM

      If cars’ interiors are indeed built in a different fashion in the US, that explains why nobody apart from me seems to be able to relate to this problem… :s

      • Tradition May 13, 2010, 10:17 AM

        I spend plenty of time in cars, in Israel. Again, I have never seen a car where there is nothing separating the driver and passenger. This story is made up.

        • Anonymous May 13, 2010, 2:01 PM

          It’s so typical of American Jews that they seem to think that outside America Israel is the only country where there are any (frum) Jews!! :p
          I did not say there wasn’t anything separating. You have the brake etc. there as well as those long thingies into which you insert your seatbelts… Come on, I can’t believe I have to explain to someone AMERICAN what a CAR looks like!

    • Bubba Metzia May 13, 2010, 7:11 PM

      When buckling the seat belts their elbows could’ve touched depending on how they were angled. Happens all the time. And an armrest isn’t a very effective barrier to keep from accidental touching.

  • Bubba Metzia May 13, 2010, 12:20 AM

    Does that thing about taping down seat belts actually happen? Whatever happened to Pikuach Nefesh being more important than most other things?

    And in Florida if someone in the car isn’t wearing a seat belt you get pulled over and given a ticket.

  • just did it May 21, 2010, 12:13 AM

    i was just on a shiduch date. bumped hands with the girl by accident while walking. it was an accident I swear!

  • Leah Kleim May 27, 2010, 5:36 PM

    It seems that BTs and Gerim get touched because guys think they are whores, we were kind of taught that in yeshiva

    I have had 20 black babies in the last five years… because I am not frum, yet when it comes to learning and halocha, I know to much of it.
    And… Loshon hora is considered a crime biger than murder, so I dont know why its ok for people to decide to make up stories about me, or even truths about me on any given tuesday, just stam azoi.

    Leah Kleim

  • Leah Kleim May 27, 2010, 6:02 PM

    “because guys think they are whores, we were kind of taught that in yeshiva every girl who isnt frum must be a whore.”

    I meant to quote this ….

  • Anonymous2 June 20, 2013, 11:14 PM

    You guys. I know it’s 3 years later, but come on! People have accidents happening to them all the time. She was just telling us her story. No need to make it a big deal. I mean, yeah, it might be a big deal to the one who experienced it, but to those who didn’t, don’t judge. You most likely were never in her shoes, so, again, don’t judge.
    Thanks for listening. I know this is three years later, but since its still on the Internet, people are liable to read it 3 years later. So please don’t judge me posting this(3 years later). I also know I sound repetitive(or like a broken record), but all I’m trying to say is:
    DON’T JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE UNTIL YOU’RE IN THEIR SITUATION.
    Oh, and about the car thing:
    There are a lot of different types of cars these days all over the world. There are Jews all over the world too. Not only in Israel!

  • Anchuldiks? January 16, 2015, 12:04 PM

    Glad I didn’t go to your yeshiva. I’m aware that the site is called what it is but that doesn’t give him the right to stereotype every yeshivas the way he did . Where i learnt, we were not taught anything like the responder did. I’m sorry your life experience has given you that perspective. Just FYI the case did happen. I think in 1963 about. I was looking it up and this was like the 5th hit or whatever.

  • bHH February 14, 2018, 11:20 PM

    I’m dying!! LOL I wonder if anyone who actually take the response seriously – I hope not!

Leave a Comment