Kelsey Media

I don’t want to have kids

473 comments

By Tova Schreiber

I don’t want to have kids.

Allow me to repeat that: I do not want to have children. Ever.

As an avid reader of Frum Satire and a blogger myself, Heshy and I will sometimes throw writing ideas back and forth to one another. When he learned that I planned on living a child-free life, he suggested I write a guest post. I know I’ll get dumped on for this thing, and many of you will attempt to tear me a new one. So, after much hesitation and encouragement, here I am.

Let’s start with the word: “childfree”. What does it mean? It’s not the same thing as childless, certainly. A childless person is usually someone who wants kids but, for whatever reason, doesn’t have them. Childfree is something very different. These individuals do not want to have children, period. To call them childless is to pity them when really they’re pretty happy with their decision not to reproduce.

As a Jew and as an American, I live in a “family friendly”, child-promoting and pro-pregnancy society. In some businesses, workers who perform the same tasks as their co-workers are often given pay raises when they become pregnant. Employers might ask childfree workers to work late because they “don’t have a family”. Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot. Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die. Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times. Families with kids get tax credits funded by those who can’t have or don’t want children.

It goes on and on. The fact of the matter is that this world, right or wrong, places parents and children high above the people who cannot or do not want to have children.

Some people must think I hate children, while those who know me understand that this is not the case. I like kids! Smart, friendly, well-behaved children are a delight to me, and it’s fun interacting with them and teaching them about the universe. I enjoy playing Rolling Stones songs for my niece (she turns 8 tomorrow), and my babysitting charges think I’m one of the coolest “grown-ups” ever.

I just don’t want kids of my own. To some people, this is impossible to fathom. To me, though, there’s an enormous difference between watching someone else’s kid (reading with him, collecting bugs or doing science experiments, eating dinner together, bathing him, putting him to bed) and having a little rugrat of my own.

People ask, “Why don’t you want kids?”

I have many reasons. Here are just a few of mine:

1. I’m not your stereotypical woman; my maternal instinct is not very good. Sure: If a baby cries, I will soothe her/feed her/change her diaper/whatever, but I don’t feel a strong need to mother her. To create a child of my own, and then mother it for the next two decades does not sound appealing to me when I don’t feel a powerful drive to take care of it.

2. Let’s be honest: Tiny kids and little babies are annoying and worrisome much of the time. They wail at decibel levels high enough to match those of rock concerts, have poop explosions, hit other children or pets, talk back to their parents, run into the street and get food and dirt all over their faces. If I don’t want to subject myself to this behavior, why should I?

3. I’m a libertarian; consequently, I love freedom. To me, it’s more important to be able to come home from work on a Friday and say to my man, “Let’s throw together some things and go away for the weekend” or just enjoy a quiet evening with friends than staying home and changing diapers and breastfeeding.

4. Kids are expensive. Most current estimates I’ve read place infancy-to-adulthood costs at close to a quarter of a million dollars. That doesn’t include college, which I would feel compelled to help fund if I did bring a child into this world. I’d rather save money for retirement, go out to nice restaurants, or buy a classic muscle car.

Given my reasons (and seemingly all the reasons given by the childfree) for not wanting children, I get told a lot of things. The most common one is, “You’re awfully selfish.”

My response: So? It’s not a bad thing. Human nature is inherently selfish. If anything, people who have children they can’t afford and then say “God (read: taxpayers) will provide” are the most selfish specimens of all. Also, when I get told that it’s a good thing I don’t want to reproduce, I simply say, “I agree. Then I might end up like you!”

As I said before, I like good kids. But:

– If you bring your tiny infant into a fine restaurant or movie theater and he starts screaming, I will have a manager ask you to leave.
– If your kids are cruel to your own pets or mine, I will contact the ASPCA and/or the police.
– If you complain that you can’t walk across the parking lot while pregnant, I’ll tell you quite simply that you were obviously too unhealthy to reproduce in the first place.
– If your son kicks the back of my seat on a plane, I will turn around and ask him to stop – getting a flight attendant’s assistance if needed.

There are many other things I could write about this issue, but I think I’ll end on this note: Sometimes, I look at pregnant women with some envy. I long to feel my stomach growing, to know that there’s a life inside of me…

Then I remember: There already is a life inside of me. My own. And I’m going to experience it to the fullest – guiltfree, childfree.

Why I posted this piece: I believe in letting people do what they want. It’s their lives and although I understand this woman’s arguments and can relate to many of them, I do not think like her. I decided to post this because I think it’s important for us to see that not everyone is alike. I have never really met any Jews that didn’t want kids. Isn’t puru urvu the first mitzvah in  the Torah? Isn’t the whole purpose of making the world a better place, so that our offspring can enjoy that world and carry on our legacy?

  • irla

    tova;

    I am 45 and i am still single. I did not do it on purpose, i lived in a family where cuddling and carrying nephews, baking them cakes and cooking for their birthdays are part of my routine, but having my own did not compute obviously as i am still unattached as of this very minute. Being single has so many perks, but i believe that in the Jewish context of passing on your traditions, you may feel a bit uncomfortable living this way. I just want you to know, you have a sister here that shares the same view. Live it and love it.

  • a mother

    hahaha naive simpleton (I’m guessing youre between 18 -25) To think youve got it all figured out alrady. In a sense I envy your naivete. Heres a word of advice: save this post so that you and your kids can get a laugh over it in about 25 yrs or so.

    • Anonymous

      I really hope you don’t call people mean names in front of your kids.

    • Happy

      That’s funny. It’s obvious that you are offended that someone made a different choice than you. Sorry there is no going back from that child that made you so bitter.

    • Michael

      I’m in my mid-30’s and have been together with my fiancee for almost 10 years. We’ve never wanted kids and will never have kids. There is no naivete here, and I’ll be more than happy to save my post, so that my wife and I can laugh at it when we have no children in 25 years.

      • a mother

        Anonymous, I call people names when they fulfill one of the two following conditions: a) its annonymously on the internet, or b) the person is overly stupid/evil or whatever that I feel the need to make sure my kids realsie how stupid that individual is. This post fullfilled both.
        Happy, my kid uses that argument all the time “I know you are but what am I” He’s 5, grow up.
        Michael, first of all you dont know what youre missing. Secondly, it is naive to think youve got it all figured out at 20 something. Im sure youll agree youve come across many bumps in the past 10 yrs and things are quite differnt than you could have predicted

        • Bryde

          “I call people names when they fulfill one of the two following conditions: a) its annonymously on the internet, or b) the person is overly stupid/evil or whatever that I feel the need to make sure my kids realsie how stupid that individual is. This post fullfilled both.”

          You name call because it’s anonymous and you can hide?Wow,very mature.Tova is not nor has she said anything stupid or evil.She is also not the anonymous one here.These are HER reasons for not wanting children.Just because she chooses a different path from you doesn’t mean she is evil or stupid.

          You “make sure your kids realize (I corrected the spelling) how stupid that individual is”?

          So,you teach them to not respect and to not accept that people have different thoughts,paths,vision and wants in life?Anything you find foolish evil and stupid?I sure hope they never have a thought that doesn’t originate from your own head then.

          Again,I fail to see WHY you must name-call to make a point because you disagree.

          • a mother

            my apologies for not being clear, I didnt mean she was evil nor stupid. I meant OVERTLY evil/stupid in this case naive. Anyone can have any opinion they want (besdies me it seems) however it is naive to think youve got your whole life figured out at 20ish

            • a mother

              meaning evil stupid etc… i was listing examples of qualities that it is important to be able to discern. In this case naivite

              • McGuirk

                Speaking of stupidity, are you passing yours onto your children, or are you just going to hand them down illiteracy and a lack of knowledge on the topic of syntax? Or are those genetic traits?

                • Anonymous

                  syntax isn’t handed down genetically, but as a grammarian i doubt you knew that see we all have our strengths. Hers is wisdom and understanding that silly tova is bound to change her mind 40 times in the next ten years, yours is syntax.
                  We are all entitled to our opinions, even you and especially her

                  • McGuirk

                    I was implying that stupidity is handed down genetically. Way to catch on though, champ.
                    And were I you, I would not deem to guess at my ‘strengths’. You’ll find you miss the mark every time. Which sounds about spot on for you.

              • Kids kill

                Hahaa u r a mad mother !

            • McGuirk

              Yeah, there’s a difference. Her opinion isn’t based on stupidity and living someone else’s life. What great experience and wisdom have you brought to this table, to pass such judgment? Hell, from what I’ve seen, all you’ve brought is poor grammar and spelling and blithering stupidity.

            • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

              Aside from being completely condescending, when do you allow a woman to decide what she wants out of life? 25? 30?
              I’m sure you’d agree that women should not be allowed to marry or have children until they reach that age. Afterall, if she hasn’t got life figured out, how can she possibly marry (for life)?

            • Sam

              It is? I am 55 and childfree. Knew I didnt want them from the time I was 14.

        • Michael

          Number one, Tova isn’t anonymous. She’s using her name. Second, there is nothing stupid or evil about her opinion. Its only stupid that you feel the need to invalidate her opinion and assume that your opinion is the only valid or accurate one. How short-sighted. Also, you need to learn to read. If you did so, you’d know that I’m not 20 something. I’m in my mid 30’s, so for my life, I pretty much do have most of it figured out. So, don’t think I’m young and naive. That’s not accurate. Do you really want your children to learn narrow-mindedness and being judgmental from your actions?

          • a mother

            That wasnt reffering to you it was referring to my laughing at tova’s naivite (she seems to be 20ish)

            • Bryde

              I didn’t want children in my 20’s either,nor did I want them in my teens.I never wanted them.I too was told I was just “too young to know better” and I “would change my mind”.How old is old enough to be sure of what you want?20?30?40?When you do decide what you do and do not want it is no one’s right to tell you how wrong you are.You have a right to disagree but not to debase or insult based on an assumed age.

              I’m not saying that just to you,but to anyone who throws the age related “bingos” at a CF young person.

            • a mothers son and my kids dad

              she is 20ish . so you have the smarts for that. And i’m sure , that as a mother, you have the ability to juggle a few things at once. Not that incapable after all. You go girl.

      • spidey

        “I’m in my mid-30’s and have been together with my fiancee for almost 10 years. We’ve never wanted kids and will never have kids.”

        That’s because you’re getting f#cked in the ass by another guy. Isn’t it great? You don’t have to worry about having any pesky kids. You aren’t fooling anyone with your use of the term “wife’ either.

        • Bryde

          Seriously,are you closeted or something?

          Haven’t heard this name-calling childishness from spidey before,oh no.It’s all new.First you attack Tova and then you attack people who agree with her (and that’s gracious to call it attacking)?And then you name call?

          You’re showing us all so…little.

        • Michael

          First of all, you don’t know me and I don’t care. I know that when my wife and I are married in January, we’ll be happy and child free, and that’s enough for me. Also, just because you aren’t comfortable with your own orientation, there’s no need to project it upon me. Just accept who you are and live your life.

        • a mothers son and my kids dad

          lmao. i’d enjoy a beer with you.

    • Amy

      Hahaha,Naive simpleton. (I’m guessing you will have your time,money,and mobility severely compromised until your offspring are between the ages of 18 to 25.)You think you’ve got it all figured out.I in no way envy your naievity.Here’s a word of advice-stop reading these replies to your ignorant posts, because it will only depress you since many of us(I am 40 but you’d likely guess me as too young to know better in your book, as my body wasn’t ravaged by breeding)are older,though we often knew our minds at a young age, as perhaps the writer of this article , and are very happy with our choice to remain childfree. You seem far from happy ,what with your bitter rantings against the writer.

      • Anonymous

        and therin lies the heart of the discussion selfish people like you and Tova cant fathom sharing your time, money and mobility with another human being. You dont have to obviously, but relise that its because your selfish (Tova did in her post, kudos) Not only that but you assume, someone who does share is depressed. Enjoy your cats in 30 yrs, when your lonely i’ll have my kids come visit you and try to chear you up. I’ll tell them to be nice to crazy cat lady.
        You seem far from happy with your bitter rantings against the commenter, and your future looks bleaker than hers

        • Amy

          I do share my time,money,etc with another human being. I also volunteer at a youth charity. I am very happily married with many wonderful friends of all ages, so, like many other non-selfish childfree people, , I doubt I will be lonely. Oh,and I prefer dogs to cats, thanks.
          You just keep making ass-umptions under your obvious multi-posting nicks. Lonely and selfish,huh? Is that what they told you to fool you into trapping yourself in a life which makes you so bitter and envious that you feel the need to bash those who stopped to trhink first when you keep proving you know nothing about us with your inaccurate assumptions? Yeah, keep posting, we see right through you.
          Tov did not bash childed people. I have no ill will toward those who are happy,resonsible parents. But then, happy parents don’t feel the need to bash those of us who chose a different,for us better lifestyle. Regret much? Yeah, we can tell.

          • Anonymous

            Her tone sounded like she was bashing people with children. (a sentiment echoed by many commentators on this blog)
            Naturally I responded to an attack on my way of life. Im not sure why she felt the need to defend herself in the first place.
            Just as you defend yourself by assuming I have regrets, we do the same about you just with a lot more (admittedly anecdotal) evidence. Oh and she is in her low 20’s i’m not sure what your gripe is there

            • Amy

              Have fun with your, ahem,anecdotal evidence. Ours is not anecdotal. I see frustrated,unhappy parents often. I hear them complain in public/the media/private/online too,about their kids and the physical,social,and lifestyle changes that come with breeding.I see the look in their eyes as they tell their toddler YET AGAIN to putthatdown/comehere/listentomummy/behave sigh kids,right haha.
              I don’t hear complaining from childfree even a fraction of as often, nor see childfree people looking as exhausted,sweaty,unhappy,frustrated,or on edge. In fact, we tend to be a happy,relaxed,accomplished,responsible but funloving bunch. Sorry you can’t join us…..you’re obviously sorry too, given the way you rant.

              • Anonymous

                you seem t0 be complaining, dont be so sad and full of regret, try to focus on the positive in your life. Or if all else fails you can always adopt, to make up for that which you put off until later, and alas realized only too late. Im sure youll be happy too someday. Hang in there!!

                • Amy

                  I will leave your lack of a grip on reality,lack of ability to interpret comments,and your posts with the only response they inspire or deserve…

                  HAHAHAHA :D

            • Sarah

              Amy, I’m wondering which group you believe has more regret for their decision – those with children or without? Im not asking you about individuals (you claim you are happy, and youve seen parents complaining), but I’m curious which GROUP you believe is less regretful. Of course there’s probably no way to KNOW, (after all which parent would admit even anoymously that they regret having kids) If you had to guess which would it be?
              Thanks

      • a mothers son and my kids dad

        yeah amy, and you probably drive a subaru or prius hybrid, go to yoga classes religiously, are a vegitarian, love art galleries, have a dry sense of humor if any, get very annoyed when you hear a child cry or complain, are bone thin, are a hardcore liberal democ rat, show up at protests wherever and whenever just for the sake of fighting and screaming, and get upset at someone when they make a mistake. and when you get old, you will be put into a depressing old age home that treats you like shit because you’ll have no kids to love you and take care of you and you will let the government take your money and property after you pass. what a wonderful life.

        • Anonymous

          Actually, I don’t drive, and we have a van packed with gear for gigging, as I am a pro musician/singer.I am close towhat your kind usually refers to as bone thin (kept my curvy 6foot tall thin bikini bod and still occasionally model thanks to good genes and not breeding-feel free to bash me for that,too :D )
          I am quite fit but not into yoga,have been a vegetarian since childhood,not for the reasons you think(though I realize why you’d assume,as you obviously cannot understand that some of us think and act for ourselves rather than follow the herd like you),like art galleries,esp when friends have exhibits, but prefer museums and libraries,shop at secondhand stores that aren’t trendy,rescue animals,volunteer with kids,don’t preach at people to live and think exactly as I do,don’t much give a shit about politics beyond the basics,have a brash sense of humour,and pretty much have been lucky enough to get what I want,do what I want,and be what I want. Usually, I am not smug and bitchy about it, but in your case, since you asked, I am glad to correct you. Once again, you took a shot in the dark and missed by a mile.I won’t be back, but leave you with this….I have more time to devote to those already here, and I often do. This is not selfish in my opinion, and your opinion is irrellevent to me.I won’t be back, I’m too busy enjoying life to bother with the bitter , obviously clueless likes of you….enjoy bashing me and others while stuck home with your *ahem* home business and kids,that is if you work at all.

        • Amy

          Wrong again,Mother,lol. We have a van packed with gear for gigging, as I am a pro musician/singer.I am close towhat your kind usually refers to as bone thin (kept my curvy 6foot tall thin bikini bod and still occasionally model thanks to good genes and not breeding-feel free to bash me for that,too :D )
          I am quite fit but not into yoga,have been a vegetarian since childhood,not for the reasons you think(though I realize why you’d assume,as you obviously cannot understand that some of us think and act for ourselves rather than follow the herd like you),like art galleries,esp when friends have exhibits, but prefer museums and libraries,shop at secondhand stores that aren’t trendy,rescue animals,volunteer with kids,don’t preach at people to live and think exactly as I do,don’t much give a shit about politics beyond the basics,have a brash sense of humour,and pretty much have been lucky enough to get what I want,do what I want,and be what I want. Usually, I am not smug and bitchy about it, but in your case, since you asked, I am glad to correct you. Once again, you took a shot in the dark and missed by a mile.I won’t be back, but leave you with this….I have more time to devote to those already here, and I often do. This is not selfish in my opinion, and your opinion is irrellevent to me.I won’t be back, I’m too busy enjoying life to bother with the bitter , obviously clueless likes of you….enjoy bashing me and others while stuck home with your *ahem* home business and kids,that is if you work at all.

        • Amy

          Yeah Moo’s Son, guess again.
          We have a van. I don’t do yoga but could likely kick your ass as I am very fit.
          You are right about my being vegetarian, but it is for personal reasons,not trend following ones like you breeders tend toward.
          I don’t give a shit about politics beyond the basics,am not scrawny(in fact,I still model swimwear since I never wrecked my body by breeding),rarely shout ,am generally not critical, and am quite happy. I also have a realistic plan to make sure I live well in old age.Far more realistic than ‘Snotford will care for me’, which is a gamble at the least.
          I am happily married and have many friends and family ,so loneliness is no more likely for me than for anyone else.
          Whatever, I have wasted enough time on you.I ‘m off to do whatever I want whenever I want . Anyway, you ought to be off to….don’t you people have the ‘MostImportantJobInTheWorld’ to get on with,instead of sniping at those of us you envy and resent and have no clue about? LOL

          • J

            Yeah a 40 year old swimwear model who comments on frum satire’s blog between photo-shoots. Get real lady your’e coming off like a delusional lunatic and are making the sane child-free ones among us look bad.

            • Anonymous

              and dont forget there are no models with children. (besdies Hedi klum, Gissele and others) this woman is delusional

          • a mother

            No clue about? Tova wrote a angry blog about why she dislikes people with children (that wasn’t the main point, obviously but if you read carefuly youll find it). That combined with many posts on her actual blog provide a pretty good picture of her. My comment was directed to you, I dont know you (though your overly defensive/offensive comments are begining to paint you as well)
            Oh and my kid is asleep, I’m stuck at home because my babysitter canceled last minute. So here I am commenting on a blog. What about you shouldnt you be out having that wild fun you single people have? Why are you commenting and arguing on a silly blog?

    • http://reformfrum.blogspot.com RF

      It’s not really fair to say that because someone has decided they don’t want children that they’re naive and think they have it “all figured out.”

      I’ll say outright that I don’t care for the attitude that’s rampant in the “Child Free Movement” (it’s a gross generalization, admittedly, but the condescending labels like “stork parking” and “rugrats” for people who have children or children themselves is barely the beginning. I’ve read and heard much worse.), however having children is a personal decision. While having children is certainly a mitzvah, it’s not mandatory for women. Worth questioning, given that purposely not fulling this mitzvah is akin to murder, how implicated is the woman who does not want children while her partner does? That does, at the very least, seem to demand a very lonely life, but if it’s the life one wants, then how lonely would it really be?

      Bottom line – it’s out of line to condescend someone whose choices are different from your own, regardless of which side of the issue you stand on. I’m not a mother. G-d willing, one day I will be. But I don’t think it’s naive of someone to choose otherwise. And I think it’s awfully self-righteous and narrow-minded for anyone to assume that is the case, be they a mother or not.

    • http://twitter.com/snakelady Snakelady

      haha… yeah… I felt the same way at 18-25, too.

      Now I’m 42….. and STILL feel this way!!! I’m SOOO happy to be childfree!!! In fact, I’m looking into essure, the new “non-invasive” form of sterilization (once I talk to other women who’ve already had it done)… to make sure I don’t goof up. I’ve been with the same guy for more than 13 years. His mom wants grandkids, but sorry, I’m not going to have kids for someone else, either. She’s 70 and wouldn’t want to raise another kid, I’m sure. She can dote on the nieces and nephews.

      • Stan

        When I was 5 I wanted to be a fireman!! and guess what now i am a firefighter. Obviously not because that’s what I wanted to be when I was 5, rather because as I grew up i realized that that is the right job for me.
        (ful disclosure: Im not really a firefighter, i’m just making a point)

    • ME

      HEY…JUST CAUSE U RUINED UR LIFE BY HAVING KIDS DOESN’T MEAN THAT THE REST OF US WILL DO THE SAME. I’M GLAD I DON’T HAVE KIDS. I GET TO SPEND ALL MY TIME AND MONEY ON ME, MYSELF, & I. LOVE IT!

    • garr

      Just because someone’s young doesn’t mean they’re going to change their mind later about this. I’m 19, and asexual – I barely like kids because I had to babysit the rotten little creatures – not that I blame them but the idiotic parents that raised them. Why contribute to that idiocity? The world is as populated as it can get, so go on and have your 9 kids, they’re gonna have a hell of a lot of fun in the future (not).

    • Shannon

      I think “a mother” does not quite have the English language figured out.

      You sound bitter, as if your choice to have children was not a choice at all. To call someone “naive” means that you feel that somewhere in this person’s future an unstoppable force will compel them to split in half and asexually reproduce a child whether they like it or not.

      I have no idea what your personal history is regarding pregnancy and child-rearing, but you seemed fairly stunted.

      I am in my 30’s, married for ten years, and I didn’t want kids when I was 18 and I still do not want kids. Period. Sure they can be cute in a snapshot. Parents on Facebook like to highlight the best of times – but rarely do we see photographs of the baby up all night with an ear infection, the toddler falling off the back deck, the 10 year old getting into a fistfight at school, and the teenager crashing mom or dad’s car.

      And lets us not forget that some kids, no matter how old, never grow out of being inherently dependent on their parents. Ever see those 40 something year old “kids” begging their parents to help them raise their *own* children? Now you’re no longer a mom, you’re a grandma, taking care of someone’s baby because for some reason your kid grew up to be a welfare leech. It happens. You can’t foresee it, even when you try to raise children correctly.

      Screw that.

      Child-free is far from being naive. Convincing yourself that having children is the *only* right thing to do is naivety in the strictest sense of the word.

  • observer

    Are you same Tova who got caught lying a few posts back? Did you ever explain yourself or fess up (he didnt seem like he was willing to let go, i’m wondering what happened)

  • Dave

    I’ve been married for closing in on two decades now.

    We have no children, nor do we want children. I prefer the term Childless-by-Choice to Childfree, but that’s largely because I’ve found more people who I find to be “child hostile” more likely to use the term Childfree. Your mileage may vary.

    • http://lauracarroll.com Laura Carroll

      Dave, Hi — author of Families of Two here and just had to respond..I have talked with Lots of childless by choice/childfree people and find more people choose to use the the word childfree and are not child hostile…We don’t like either label but choose “free” over “less,” because the latter connotes we are somehow missing something.
      The child hostile call themselves either one!
      ~Laura http://lauracarroll.com

  • Esther

    Well, I guess, to each his/her own and it is, undoubtedly your choice. I would advise you to never say never, as you are young and may change your mind later on. Either way, hope you’re happy.

    Some feedback on what you wrote. First off, I would like to know where it is that a woman going on maternity can get a pay raise. In my world, its alot more likely that she’ll lose her job and be replaced while she’s away caring for a newborn.

    In terms of pets vs. kids, I have one of each and my son, although he is certainly my first priority, is taught how to play well with the cat and is punished if he exhibits any behavior such as the stick poking you mentioned.

    Having children is a joy but also a responsibility and I don’t think people should have kids until they are ready and feel they are up to the task of raising them right and caring/providing for them. I also don’t believe in the “God Will Provide” thinking – that’s irresponsible. Its all well and good to put faith and hope in God, but people should be able to stand on their own two feet and provide for their family before deciding to expand it.

    Oh, and as far as not having a life for a couple of decades, my son is five and, although admittedly it was tougher when he was a newborn, our social life is as exciting as it was before he was born (if not more so).

    • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

      Kids growing up with animals probably aren’t the ones abusing them.

      The overall point that kids are more important than pets is true.

      • Bryde

        Maybe kids are “more important” but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to get rid of an animal because you have children. Animals are a responsibility too and to just drop that because a baby enters the fold isn’t fair to the animal.

        The other issue is people buys pets for children.I firmly believe that in most cases that is NOT a good choice.Especially when said puppy is very small.I’ve rescued two dogs from homes wih children because little Jane got the puppy she whined for but can’t or didn’t take care of.Even worse,the “ccute little tyke” made a game of pulling on ears,tails ot generally picking on the dog.

        Once the dog defends itself-by growling or snapping,they want to pawn of their “child-hating” dog on who else but someone without kids?

        So kids DO “abuse” the pets in the household-or rather they can,if the parents aren’t being good parents.But done well,a child can learn there own lessons in responsibility and compassion.

        As a CF person myself,I find that my heart is predisposed toward domestic animals.I take up causes concerning them and own quite a few.So,no I don’t have kids (nor will I) but I do have compassion,empathy and an instinct to care for things-it just isn’t kids.

        • Yochanan

          How dare those parents put the needs of their offspring over those of another species! Just who do they think they are?!

      • Michael

        Its interesting to see when any person places one form of life over any other form of life. Each form of life has its own value, and nothing is more important than the other. They’re just important in different ways. To this end, I think you’re very skewed in your thinking.

        • spidey

          Ah, so pets are equal to if not more important than children. I’m glad to hear your yuppie, new age, f#cking retarded views on the value of human life. No wonder you don’t want children. A dog is cheaper and easier to handle, plus it is no less important than a human being, right? You have proven yourself to be a mindless faggot with no sense of morality and a sad, pathetic life. Now go find a man to f#ck you in the ass to round off your politically correct lifestyle. Unless one already is.

          • Michael

            Actually, I said that all life was equally important, which it is. To devalue a form of life as less important than another opens that life up to abuse and persecution. My morality is the value of all life, no matter what the type, including ignorant morons like you. Also, if you were able to comprehend all these posts correctly, you would see that living a child free lifestyle is far from politically correct. Also, once again, don’t project your lifestyle upon me, based on your own discomfort with yourself.

    • http://abandoningeden.blogspot.com abandoning eden

      yep, I study work-family issues for a living, and for each child a woman has she has on average a 7% decrease in income, and that is NOT explainable by a decrease in hours worked (mostly it’s due to being fired and only being able to find a lower paid job).

      And actually the US is the least “Family friendly” county of any westernized country, all the european countries have paid maternity leave, and we only have unpaid leave if you’ve been working more than a year- and if you are poor, you probably can’t afford to take much time off from work. Our unpaid maternity leave is also the shortest leave policy of any country (12 weeks vs. 1.5 years in places like sweden), and we don’t have subsidized day care like other countries.

      Anyways, I think it’s appropriate for a country to encourage childbearing (Not FORCE but encourage through policies that help parents) because it’s in the interest of our society to have a next generation.

      Oh and as for having a life, I know tons of (hippie) people with young kids who are still going out to shows/festivals/etc. They either bring their kids with them, or trade off with their partner as to who gets to go which night, or they hire a babysitter. But children does not equal death of life. It does for some people, it’s true, and it may be a bit more difficult to get out. Then again, I have problems getting out nowadays cause of my dog (Can’t be left alone more than 4 hours, hard to find a dog sitter…).

      I’ll also add that I was adamantly child-free until around age 25, when I met my husband, who is not going to force me to become a stay at home mom (and he wants to be a stay at home dad actually). Also I think something about meeting the right guy to be a father/that biological clock my dad always told me about that i didn’t believe in. That isn’t to say that there aren’t plenty of people who are against having children their entire lives, but I’ve met many many people who were child free-ers in their teens/early twenties who changed their mind once they got a little older. But I don’t assume that will happen to you. :)

      • Esther

        Thank you for the info. That sounds about right, although 7% is not as much of a decrease as I would have guessed.

  • John

    Why yes observer it is the same tova, and no sadly she has not clarified . I did sort of let go, honesty isnt one of her strong points.
    On that note,
    Tova just because you are a failure to your parents doesnt mean your kids will fail you

    • Yochanan

      Dude, that was totally uncalled for.

    • Anonymous

      John with an “h”- that was totally uncalled for and nasty.

      • Michael

        Just because you’re a failure to society, John, doesn’t mean you have to share it with us.

        • Anonymous

          I know you are but what am I

    • McGuirk

      What a jerk. I don’t know about Tova, but I’d sure be ashamed if you were my kid.

      • John s mommy

        Im actually quite proud of John. (You made him cry so he had to bring his mommy)
        Oh and I do know about Tova shes a failure to her parents read her blog

        • McGuirk

          There’s a difference between being a failure and being deemed a failure or feeling like a failure.
          And seriously, for the good of your community, neuter your child.

          • John s mommy

            nah my community encourages that sort of thing. remember? BTW are you a failure to your parents too?

    • spidey

      John, you have summed up this idiot perfectly. Ignore all these motherfuckers who think you’re insensitive. If this bitch is so sensitive she shouldn’t be posting such utter crap on the interwebz. I guess her self esteem is so low that she wishes she was never born- that’s the only way to rationalize a stance which had her parents adhered to it would have prevented her pointless existence. And yes, Tova, you are a selfish fucking cunt.

    • spidey

      John, thanks for an insightful comment. Ignore the haterz. Her lack of self esteem is glaring. It’s the only reason for someone to espouse a view that would have prevented their own existence, miserable though it may be.
      Tova, you’re a selfish f#cking c#nt.

      • McGuirk

        Right, how selfish of her, not bringing children into the world that she has no desire to raise. If only she took the example of all those welfare mothers and had the children and then let them become hoodlums while using the welfare money and EBT card to buy booze and cable.
        But obviously, you know better.

      • Michael

        How immature to enter into an adult conversation and start calling names. Since you have nothing insightful to add, why don’t you go fingerpaint.

        • Bob

          Adult conversation? Are you kidding? its actually laughable how childish this conversation got.
          Tovas post was childish, and then came the comments and the intellectual level plummeted

          • Michael

            Tova’s post was not childish. It was an adult opinion expressed in an intellectual way and then she got slammed for it.

            • Bob

              Her opinion is basically I dont want to have kids because I’m too selfish to share my time and money and they are annoying (you can skip straight to her 4 numbered reasons if you need a reminder)
              Is she entitled to her opinion? obviously! (it feels silly stating the obvious). Is it an adult opinion? definitely not!!

              • Happy

                You are obviously too biased to even entertain that someone may have good reasons for not having children. Did you have your kids so someone would take care of you when you get old? How selfish!!

                Seriously, what would be an adult reason that would be acceptable to you for not wanting to have children? Can you think of any or is it just easier to dismiss other people’s opinions?

                • Bob

                  here are adult reasons for not wanting a child: Im too iresponsible and an even better one would be I’m too selfish. Now she actually used the second one but in order to inflate and disguise the post she listed 4 “different” reasons, which if you reread translate to I’m selfish. Is she allowed to be selfish? again obviously. Can she pretend her opinion is based on anything more thaa that? Not without getting called out on it.

                • Bob

                  Oh and Happy, just for completion’s sake here are a couple comments from her post that indicate she is nothing more than a child:
                  “Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot.”
                  I’ve only seen this at babies R us, its a way to attract customers who are pregnant, why shop there if you dont want children? Furthermore that same argument could be used against handicaped spaces as well i.e. you can wheel yourself/hobble around a mall for a few hours, but not across a parking lot, is she against those too?
                  “Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die.”
                  Should we let little Johnny die? Furthermore for the life of me I dont get her point in that one, that schools should be less child-friendly?
                  Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times.
                  Is she advocating putting down Ashleigh, Kaitlyn or jonah for hitting or poking the beloved pet?!?! Families with kids get tax credits funded by those who can’t have or don’t want children.
                  Society deems it in it’s best interst to promote child-bearing. Just as my taxes fund a war I dont personally support, her’s will fund tax credit for people with kids. Furthermore, that argument would mean she is against our society reproducing, not just herself.
                  Those reasons, along with the tone, and the fact that her post boils down to one line that she is to embarassed to say ie: I dont want kids becasue I’m selfish (Which Id be fine with by the way, she doesnt have to share) classify this post as childish.
                  There are several good reasons not to have kids (Ive listed 2 in the previous comment, I’ll add a third now: not being able to afford it.) she has a good reason but is to afraid to say it. She is a child.

                  • Happy

                    Actually, they have the mothers parking in many stores now. I also find it pretty dang annoying. I think the peanut comment was her way of saying that society is incredibly over protective of children. Everything is “for the children” and nothing else matters. A mother is worried about her son’s allergy and suddenly airlines are pulling peanuts off their flights. It has gotten ridiculous.

                    I think the only reason anyone needs for not having kids it so say, “I don’t like kids that much.” Nothing else is required tbh.

                    • Bob

                      Couldnt agree with you more (on that last point). nobody has to have kids. An adult would say I dont want kids, period, and i respect that choice.
                      Writing a manifesto deffending that decision as if its based on anything more than : I dont want to share, when in reality all her given reasons are varients of not wanting to share. And then throw in contempt for those who do want toraise, provide for and care for their children. Well, that is childish

      • Bryde

        Wow,rude AND disgusting.That’s really pathetic that the best you can do to bolster the pr-o baby argument is to spell horribly and call Tova names.

        Lack of self-esteem?What were you reading?She is showing herself to be responsible to be aware of her own lack of interest in procreating.I hope you also,choose not to procreate,lest the children repeat the words from your foul mouth.

        • spidey

          I am rude. I am disgusting. But why are you getting so worked up about it? She chose to post this b#llshit. I can call her out on it if I so choose. I’m just not sure what I misspelled. If you mean “haterz” then you must not get that you are on the f#cking internet. I can spell any word how I damn please to. I would like to point out that I am not “pr-o baby”, just that Tova is a f#cking idiot. And if you knew how goddamn ugly this cumdumpster is you would understand her lack of self-esteem.

          • Bryde

            Spidey-I am quite aware of crappy Internet spelling trends.I find them pathetic,pointless and a show of your lack of intelligent response.

            Ah the name-calling. Again,pathetic attempts to make yourself feel better. It isn’t an intelligent response to call names based on appearance,choices etc.It does show your lack of useful contribution to the comments here as well as society as a whole.

          • Michael

            I understand your lack of intelligence, which is very evident based on your posts. She presented a clear, concise opinion in an intellectual way. Obviously, you can’t understand that. You can call people names as a way of compensating for your intellectual and educational shortcomings, though. We’re very familiar with ‘net lingo. We just don’t like bad grammar.

          • Bryde

            Yes her FB is open,yes it is linked from here and yes I DID go look.Tova is a lovely looking girl.I’m jealous of that natural red hair!She a beautiful,normal size woman.No,she isn’t Kate Moss,heroin thin,she doesn’t look like a comic book heroine or an anime girl (thank G-d).I know that’s what you think womanhood is,but comics and anime are not reality.

            If all you can do is make mindless comments about someone you have never met,based on YOUR lone interactions with comics and Playboys-well I see why you are alone.

            Now Tova,you are making me want to run to the store for a nice shade of red!

            • spidey

              Bryde, it seems Tova doesn’t feel quite the same way you do. She seems to have finally hidden her profile pictures, thank G-d. You seem to have quite an inferiority complex btw. I highly doubt every thin woman is on heroin and will OD by 30. Oh, another thing- I don’t read comic books or anime, I’m to busy f#cking shiksas.

              • Bryde

                I never said the stupid bitches would OD-but if they do-one less addict in the world-darn.

                I don’t have an inferiority complex-I’m not the one reassuring people on this board I am having sex,like…you are.

                Again,you proffer lame insults and now a weak attempt at pop psychology.Bor-ing.

  • Yonitish

    I hear what you’re saying. I used to say that too. The logic is so sound it’s incredible. But, I will say you might want to keep an open mind as it might change.

    Like I said, I was like you. Then my husband convinced me to start trying. I wasn’t on board really at all but I loved my husband. We got pregnant right away and I still wasn’t 100% on board. Then, at 12 weeks I had a very long and very painful miscarriage.

    I went through so much pain physically and emotionally. When it was over, I just kept thinking about the irony. I didn’t conceive again right away again and I was convinced that I was going to be childless. HaShem was teaching me a very powerful lesson. It took that miscarriage and period of time after without being able to conceive to understand exactly what it was to want children and my eyes were opened. The rest is hard to explain, but I became obsessed, as if it was the only thing I ever wanted to do.

    There are people out there who have it a lot worse than me also! I can not thank G-d enough that this is the only problems I’ve had so far. So many people simply stam can not get pregnant.

    B”H now I’m pregnant again and I really am grateful to G-d.

    I don’t wish any of this on you, but I just think you should keep your options open and really think about this (not that you haven’t already, obviously).

    Good luck and be well :)

    • Yochanan

      Shouldn’t you discuss your ideal family size with your significant other before marrying?

      • Yonitish

        And we did. Before we got married, I never thought about kids. It was sort of assumed we’d have them. Then, after we were married for a long time, I started thinking critically and decided against it. It’s rather complicated and not easy to explain over the internet.

        Suffice it to say though, it isn’t what you might assume.

  • Joe

    And here i was thinking this will be a clever post… all your reasons are dumb and it comes down to being selfish. Like they say dont muck till you try it and u girl didnt.

    Umm good luck trying to find a guy as selfish as your self.

    • Yochanan

      Well, at least she’s being upfront about what ever selfishness she may or may not have.

    • Michael

      This post was clever. You’re just too narrow-minded to interpret it that way. You misunderstand her concept of selfishness. She sees it as selfless not to bring another mouth that needs to be fed into this world when she doesn’t want a child. That could possibly lead to a child being put up for adoption and having no one to guide that child and the government paying to raise him. She sees it as selfish to bow to the pressures of a skewed society, which will result in unhappiness for her family and for the child. And, I, for one, agree with her.

      • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

        Agreed.
        And there are a lot of Orthodox Jews out there that agree with her.

    • Shadow

      Yes, because living your life the way you see fit for yourself is totally selfish. And what, perchance, would you suggest doing if the author did have children, just to find out she did not like them? Killing them or giving them away would probably also be “selfish”, but keeping them and resenting them forever would totally be fine. Yes, because doing stuff you don’t need to do just because someone on the internet with no grasp of grammar tells you to is what life is all about.

    • McGuirk

      That’s sharp. Don’t ‘muck it’ till you try it. So when she has a child and finds herself miserable, she can end up like that ‘mother’ posting earlier (in other words, miserable and annoying), or add to the stress on the American adoption system?
      Brilliant.

  • http://manonofhollywood.etsy.com Tikvah

    I am also childless by choice and 40. Looking back, it was the best decision my husband and I ever made. I love my niece but I love my childless life too.

  • T

    Thank you for doing us all a favor by not reproducing.

    • Michael

      Why don’t you do us all a favor by keeping ignorant comments that don’t further the conversation to yourself.

      • spidey

        Michael, you’re a dumbshit.
        T, thanks for voicing my opinion. Got a good laugh out of that.

        • Michael

          Wow! That was profound. If you don’t have anything to further the conversation, please return to your mother’s basement and keep playing video games.

    • McGuirk

      Thanks for doing us all a favor by not reproducing yourself. Enjoy your snarky, WASP-ish life while your significant other bangs another man.
      Huzzah!

  • Anonymous

    you look pregnant

    • Michael

      And you sound ignorant. At least she knows she’s not pregnant. Can you say the same?

    • J

      This is my absolutely favorite of the trollish comments. Out of all of them, this is by far the most intelligent.

      Anon, you never dissapoint.

      • spidey

        J, you are absolutely right, this is the most intelligent comment. Anon has uncovered the real motivation for this post. Tova just wants everyone to stop asking her when she’s due.

        p.s. I think it would have been kinder of her to just lose some weight before throwing this mindfu#k out here. Just saying…

        • McGuirk

          I’m willing to wager she’s a damn sight hotter than anyone else posting here.

          • janet reno look alike

            I’ll take that bet you can see a pick of her on her blog, you can see one of me if you google janet reno. I bet i’m way hotter!!!!

            • McGuirk

              So you don’t know who Janet Reno is, either?
              Hot damn, hop outside the microcosm of your existence from time to time. It’s a big world out here.

              • Bob

                LOL!!! haha McGuirk you lose this look-alike is way hotter what did you wager?

                • McGuirk

                  If you really think that Janet Reno is hotter than anyone or thing, I think you need to turn in some of your parts. Seriously.
                  I’m pretty sure there are people who would rather nail a hole in the ground filled with scorpions than Janet Reno.
                  But I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and when you’re sexually confused, I guess you might find the manly charms of Janet Reno appealing.
                  Apparently, Jack Thompson did too.

                • McGuirk

                  If you really think Janet Reno’s hotter than anything or anyone, I think you need to turn in some parts. Seriously. I’m pretty sure that most people would rather nail a hole in the desert filled with scorpions than Janet Reno.
                  Of course, if you’re sexually confused, I can see how you might find the mannish charms of Janet Reno appealing. I mean, Jack Thompson did, and I always figured him for a closet case…

                • McGuirk

                  Wow. If you really think Janet Reno’s hotter than anything or anyone, I think you need to turn in some parts. Seriously. I’m pretty sure that most people would rather nail a hole in the desert filled with scorpions than Janet Reno.
                  Of course, if you’re sexually confused, I can see how you might find the mannish charms of Janet Reno appealing. I mean, Jack Thompson did, and I always figured him for a closet case…

                • McGuirk2.0

                  If you really think Janet Reno’s hotter than anything or anyone, I think you need to turn in some parts. Seriously. I’m pretty sure that most people would rather nail a hole in the desert filled with scorpions than Janet Reno.
                  Of course, if you’re sexually confused, I can see how you might find the mannish charms of Janet Reno appealing. I mean, Jack Thompson did, and I always figured him for a closet case…

          • spidey

            McGuirk, you crack me up. Have you seen this b*tches Facebook? There’s a link to it on her blog. All of her profile pictures are visible. This girl is a whale. Her profile pic is from when she was 17, and only “slightly” chubby. The way she looks now she’d be lucky if she could find someone willing to have kids with her. I can’t speak for anyone else, but spidey is a damn sight hotter than this fat c#nt, unless you have a f#cked up taste in women. Better luck next time.

            • Michael

              As I said before, it takes a very small man to attack someone on their appearance when he can’t even spell properly. Her looks aren’t what this post is about, idiot. Stay to the topic.

              • spidey

                Michael, stop being such a self righteous grammar nazi. She posted this under her own name, although she could have posted anonymously She keeps her FB profile pics open to the public, although hiding them is simple. She is therefore, of her own volition, fair game. And if you would have read my post, faggot, you would realize that I am proposing an alternate motivation for her to post this psuedointellectual yuppie piece of shit in a public forum. She f#cked up all by herself. Like I said, now she’s fair game.

                • Bryde

                  Oh look,more name-calling.Faggot?Everyone’s appearance,sexual preference and things that have nothing to do with this post somehow keep coming in to play with you.

                  Again,pathetic.

                • Michael

                  Her image is still unrelated to her post, so it is ignorant to even bring it up. Of course, ignorance is a state with which you’re intimately familiar. And, apparently, anyone who can craft a well-formed, intellectually thought out post is gay, huh? Man, are you an idiot!

              • I LOVE TOVA

                Spidey, be nice she may be fat as whale. but rumor has it she gives great head. In my experience this is often true of fatties, you just gotta close your eyes and enjoy it. Oh and its always true of formerly frum chicks, it may have something to do with their unresolved daddy issues (which probably prompted this post)

                • Bryde

                  More posts with an intellectual deficit.Are you and Spidey sharing a basement?Again,this post has NOTHING to do with the post,nothing intelligent to add and nothing will be gained from it.Bor-ing.

                • McGuirk

                  You and Spidey remind me of a retard I met once. I only met him because he had locked a jehova’s witness in his basement (the witness was a midget, and the retard thought him to be a gnome. Seriously.) A friend, who at the time was supposed to check up on this retard to make sure he wasn’t harassing society, ended up having to let the midget out of the basement.
                  I tell this story for one reason; it aptly describes both of you. You don’t really add anything to society, or any conversation, but you do so much to detract from it. Society would be best served if you were left alone, locked in your house, with nothing but a television and cable for company, while someone with more sanity checked in on you from time to time. Or locked into a shack in the woods.
                  Hell, we could lock you two in the room, and you could explore your urge to spend some quality time with those of the same sex.

                • McGuirk

                  By the way, it is such a relief knowing that you’ll never reproduce.
                  Just because she’s not 90 pounds she’s not ‘hot’ to you? What stupidity. Have fun trying to chase those supermodels who won’t give you the time of day and won’t live past 30 with their coke habit (and even if you managed to snare one, would cheat on you night and day).
                  I especially love how you drag religion into this, and then continue on playing the role of a shrink (something that you’re obviously unqualified to do). Because obviously, religion has an effect at how good someone is at giving head. Then again, I’m certain you’re less than qualified to judge, aren’t you? Let’s face it, with your attitude, you’ve probably never touched a woman, and that’s where this anger all stems from.

                  • I STILL LOVE TOVA

                    Uch reproduce, whereve you been? Havent you read the title of the blog?
                    Oh and youve got to find an OTD girl, youd be less angryit worked for me. Ignore them tova and give me a call. I dont want kids either! we’d be great together

        • Michael

          Last time I checked, this article has nothing to do with how Tova looks. Why don’t you disengage your mouth from your small, shallow mind and keep to the topic.

          • mother-of-14

            heshy fried should delete these comments, they are nasty and contribute nothing.

  • Avrumy

    People who don’t want children shouldn’t have children. It’s as simple as that. Community and/or family pressures should not be reasons to bring an “unwanted” new person into the world. I give full credit to all the mothers and fathers out there who sort of put their own lives on hold for 20 years or more in order to raise their kids. G-d bless you all. But it is not for everyone.

    • McGuirk

      Ah, some sense!

      • Dinky Londoner

        Exactly!

    • Anonymous

      Well said Avrumy. Very well said, my thoughts exactly.

  • Al Tasleichenu Let Ziknah

    I recognize Tova’s feelings and everyone else here. But I think it is very selfish to live a childless life. Tova wouldn’t be in this world if her parents made the same decision, and in fact none of us would be. Raising children is tough work, and if we’ve had a terrible childhood like Tova, we can make sure our children are loved and become leaders of their generation.

    Secondly, I know a few childless widows, who are all alone at the end of their lives, with no one to care for them. Each of them has told me that their biggest regret is not having or being able to have children.
    Just some things to think about.

    • Dave

      Having children is no guarantee that you won’t be alone at the end of your life.

    • Michael

      How is doing what’s right for one’s self being selfish. It would be selfish to bring a child into the world just because society says you should bow to it, when you don’t really want the child. Then, you have a situation where nobody wins.

      • Phil

        Michael,

        The reasons she listed are selfish. She doesn’t like crying, noise, poop explosions and dirty faces. Poor thing might actually have to change a diaper or put up with a crying child.

        If our parents felt that way, none of us would be here. Sounds f******g selfish to me.

        • Michael

          And you sound f*****g ignorant, dude. She’s not her parents, and that comment doesn’t fly about if our parents felt that way, we wouldn’t be here. Well, obviously our parents wanted children, and obviously she doesn’t, so I don’t see the issue. In broad terms, she knows that she’ll be unhappy raising a child. Isn’t this country about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If she bows to the demands of a selfish society, she’s not helping herself any. Also, I’m 33 years old, been with my fiancee for 9 years, and I’ve never changed a diaper in my life. Never intend to either.

          • Phil

            Michael,

            Following this twisted logic, kids should just skip school, because “who likes math and homework”? Adults wouldn’t get a job, because “who likes working 9-5 when you can be a welfare bum”?

            Both of you don’t know squat about having kids, as you’ve never experienced having your own kids.

            I’m not trying to force anything on you or her, but her reasons are totally self centered. Tell me that the world is an evil place full of sick people, you might have a point. But crying and diapers? Come on.

            • J

              Phil, see my comment below. I’m interested to hear what you have to say.

            • Michael

              To survive in this world, adults have to have jobs. That’s not a societal expectation. This is a capitalist country and everything is monetarily based. Therefore, to function and survive, adults need to work, in order to receive currency, in order to purchase necessities, like food, shelter, etc. Adults don’t work because society expects them, too. They work because they need to survive in the fullest way possible. Kids don’t have a say, because they’re not at an age to make rational decisions, which is why they have parents. You can try to make it about selfishness all you want to, but the problem you have is you’ve been raised in society where everyone expects women to have children, and you’re no different. You’re a sheep. We don’t blindly follow what society says we should be doing. We do what is right for each of us personally. Perhaps all the naysayers on here would be happier if they did as well.

              • Phil

                Michael,

                As true capitalist, you shouldn’t have any problem with someone choosing “panhandling” as his lifestyle. I saw a report that successful panhandlers on the NY subway make up to $70K per year, tax free.

                Mr. & Mrs. Panhandler can easily afford to have kids at a combined net income that is higher than what most working people bring home.

                Furthermore, they should have the option of training their kids as panhandlers from a young age, instead of being forced to send them to school, that way they can further increase their income.

                How’s that for capitalism?

                We can continue this later, got to get my selfish @ss home and help the kids with homework ;)

                • Michael

                  If I know it paid that well, I might have considered it. Its very selfish of you to ask someone to go against their values.

                  • Phil

                    Michael,

                    I personally don’t give a hoot whether or not our genius of an author decides to breed or not.

                    Like I said, her kids would have serious issues to deal with based on her immature ideas, volatile mood swings and general stupidity (based on past blog posts).

                    I’m not trying to be mean or call names, just the way I see things.

                    I pointed out the selfish reasons of her decision, as they are all about herself and her not wanting to deal with noise or pooh. How do 90% of moms do it?

                    • Michael

                      Obviously you do care or you wouldn’t still be typing. You have no idea what kind of person she is completely, because you can only gauge so much, based on written blogs. Where you think she has mood swings from, I don’t know. You don’t mean to be mean or call names, but you do. If she doesn’t want to deal with those things, that’s her opinion, as well as my own. Your best bet would be to respect her opinion and address her in a civil way rather than slamming someone as you did.

                    • Phil

                      Michael,

                      You’re obviously newer to this blog than Tova and I, we’ve had our fair share of stupid discussions to say the least.

                      Beautiful thing about blogosphere: No holds barred. Though I won’t resort to childish name calling, I don’t have to be civil about anything. I said whatever I did about her, because that’s the way I perceive her, not because I’m trying to be mean and call her names.

                      As for you or her choosing not to breed, you’re the one that seems to be obsessed about defending your views to everyone on here.

                    • Dave

                      “Beautiful thing about blogosphere: No holds barred. Though I won’t resort to childish name calling, I don’t have to be civil about anything. ”

                      That’s an incredibly revealing statement Phil, although what it says about you isn’t very pleasant.

                    • Phil

                      Dave,

                      You’re probably quite new to this blog as well. Stick aroung and you’ll get used to me, you might even have a good laugh every once in a while.

              • Guest 2

                Michael,

                My guess is that [obviously] this issue is a sensitive one for you. There isn’t a comment by someone that you have not felt like responding to. Nobody is arguing that you don’t live in a land of liberty, and CLEARLY everyone makes their own decisions.

                You also seem to have a problem with the term ‘selfish’ more than what Tova had. At least, she is honest. She believes some selfishness is warrented, and this is one of them.

                You may not like my answer, but I will give it to you nonetheless. We work, not just because we need to survive, but because work emboldens us. It makes us appreciative that we earned what we receive. We learn from working. It makes us better people. We have kids because that is our jobs. It is a sort of duty we have in this world. It makes us better people. We grow, we mature, we harness certain values and we pass those values to the next life. Having kids, makes us less selfish as humans because of the responsibility we now have for them. We demand to perfect our own characters more, because now, another life is dependent on us being better people… and therefore, the world is rewarded by having better people on it.

                Yes, I am a sheep. A proud one. We are all sheep. As Herman Would says: “The only truly free people are locked in the Asylum.” I am happy to be a sheep to this great cause of making a family.

                Tova (or you) or not bad people by any stretch of the imagination. One has nothing to do with another. But not having kids due to financial issues (an issue that has ALWAYS existed – especially to poor Jews) or/freedom IS a selfish reason. Just be proud that in this area of life you are more concerned with yourself than in other aspects and thats it.

                • Anonymous

                  I didn’t say some selfishness wasn’t warranted, but I think you are all being selfish by trying to tell someone they should go against their core values. You go ahead and be a mindless sheep. That is definitely something I don’t strive for. I strive to have my own mind and opinion, and not mindlessly follow what society tells me I should do.

                  • Anonymous

                    This is truly excellent. I love how progressive your comment sounds. Wanting to have children because you feel its the right thing to do now, officially = being sheep. No opinion, no mind, just sheep. If anything comments such as Anonymous are only bolstering my opinion that this name calling of “sheep” is some defensive mechanism to a) make yourself sound more refined and educated b) somehow it helps in the cause of not having children.

                    Anonymous,

                    Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Tova posting her opinion. If she posted something of this caliber, than people are obviously going to give her their opinion, and feel that the reasons she decided to give, on her very own, with no arm twisting is selfish. Thats it. I don’t know Tova, nor anyone else. She is most likely a terrific person, but we believe her reasons to come from selfish desires..

                    • Guest 2

                      That last Anonmous was me

                • Happy

                  Who exactly is she being selfish towards? A non-existent child? The child does not exist therefore she is not depriving the child of anything. Her actions do not negatively affect anyone so I fail to see what is so selfish here.

        • Shadow

          People who want children can think about the noise and the messes and decide it’s still worth it. For some people, it isn’t. Not everyone in the world has to have goddamn kids. Your ignorance is astounding and it frightens me to think someone so dense may have their own children whose minds will be infected with the very same ignorance.

          Everyone is obligated to do things they don’t want or need to do, I guess. Arachnophobes should go and buy themselves tarantulas. Left-handed people should become right-handed. Black, Middle Eastern, and Asian people should all get surgical correction to become white. Vegetarians should eat meat. Why? Because not doing these things makes you SELFISH.

          From what I have seen of this world, parents are some of the most selfish people to ever exist, and the selfishness begins when they bring more people into a world with too many people and suffering resources. It’s because they don’t care about anyone but themselves. If you want to see selfish in action, check out all the single unemployed twenty-something mothers with no babydaddies begging for free things on CraigsList because they feel entitled to it just because they had children.

          You should open your eyes a little wider and practice intelligence if tolerance is too big of a hurdle for your precious little mind.

          • Michael

            Amen!

            • Bryde

              Oooh Shadow,I like your thoughts.Let’s be friends:)!Finally,something that makes sense.

          • balebusta

            Double that amen!

        • Yochanan

          Nuff said.

          • Yochanan

            Nuff said was in reply to Phil in #78.

            • Guest 2

              >If you want to see selfish in action, check out all the single unemployed twenty-something mothers with no babydaddies begging for free things on CraigsList because they feel entitled to it just because they had children.

              Um ya, you can blame that on a healthy welfare state.

    • J

      There’s something of a hole in all this “selfish” business.

      Tell me this. How could one *not* be selfish? Because, remember, if it is selfish not to bring a child into the world when you have the opportunity, it is basically selfish to spend any time not growing a kid inside you. Or, if you are male, implanting your sperm in absolutely every woman you see. Concievably, according to this “selfish” logic, it would be selfish not to rape every single woman you can find. Because, remember, those are all potential children that would not otherwise be alive.

      So, we must not think too far into the future. Maybe the cut-off for the selfish argument to make more sense is pregnancy. Once you are already pregnant, there is only one life to consider, so we no longer have the troubling problem of an infinant number of children.

      Anyway, I don’t actually agree with that, but I’ve sorta strayed into the abortion argument, which is a whole other issue with its own problems (though this connection is interesting, is it not?)

      • Phil

        J,

        That’s what we have halachic guidlines for.

        Frum Jews TRY to follow the “bare minimum” of having 1 girl and 1 boy. Of course they might have 10 boys and no girls.

        Ultra frum Jews try to have as many babies as possible, I’ve got a neighbor with 17 kids and one with 16.

        Anyone posting their ideas for not wanting kids to frum blog readers is going to get bashed, especially when the reasons are as immature and self centered as the ones she posted.

        • McGuirk

          Question. Is it more selfish to A) not have children or B) pop out children to prop up a religious sects’ numbers even though you’ll hate the children, be miserable, and basically are ill-equipped to parent, eventually either inflicting your poorly-behaved children’s presence on others and forcing the community to step in and do what you had no desire to?

        • Michael

          I think its ridiculous when any faith goes so far as to tell women they should have children and this many. This is not ancient times. Do you arrange marriages, too?

          • Phil

            McGuirk,

            I didn’t say it was selfish not have kids. I said her reasons for not wanting kids were selfish and immature.
            And yes, people that can’t handle that many kids should have that manykids, just my opinion.

            Michael,

            Many frummies have arranged marriages. Not that I agree with it, but their divorce rates are WAY lower than secular Jews and non Jews.

            • Michael

              I still don’t agree with it in this day and time.

              • Happy

                Are divorce rates lower because they are happy or because they are so religious that they stay married no matter what?

                • McGuirk

                  And that’s to say nothing about the pressure of their local frum communities. You see a lot of this kind of marriage in Hindi communities especially, where the man and woman stay together rather than fear what would happen otherwise. And, of course, we all probably have a story of a husband and wife who absolutely hated each other, but stayed together for the child or for their families or some due to some other societal pressure.

    • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

      Having a child so you’ll have someone to take care of you in your last years sounds pretty selfish.
      Besides, it’s not even a good bet. If you want someone for your old age, hire someone or adopt a child.

      Tova, you don’t sound selfish to me.

      • Toast

        Exactly! I wouldn’t a have a job if everybody’s kids took care of them in old age. So save all the money you would have spent on kids and put it into a savings account. Then when you’re old you can hire a personal support worker/health care aide like me to take care of you. Because I guarantee your kids won’t be doing it.

    • Zatoth

      who are child free people being “selfish” with? Imaginary children? Just because you have kids does not make you “less selfish”. I know some incredibly selfish parents and some incredibly selfless child free people.

  • wonderer

    Do you ever wonder about who will care for you when you age?

    • Michael

      That’s what the state is for.

      • Guest 2

        >That’s what the state is for.

        My guess is you are no Libertarian :)

    • J

      Aaaaaaaah. Now this, this right here, this is interesting.

      If we want to keep our old alive, we must spend money to support them. Like children, they cannot support themselves.

      Now, it is true that before large government, people were forced (forced!) to have children because no one else would (or could) support them as they aged. It used to be necesary.

      I would argue that this is no longer the case.

      Because we now have the ability to spread wealth around, we do not need to have children on an individual level (hold on, that’ll make sense in a moment). What I mean is, we, as a nation, need only sustain our *population*. We have to keep people around because people anywhere in the country can now support the old instead of direct ancestors in, you know, the same village or whatever.

      • Michael

        Exactly.

    • Shadow

      That’s why so many elderly people get dumped in nursing homes by their loving children who will never visit them again. Yup, having children to become your future caregivers is obviously a fool-proof plan.

      • Guest 2

        >That’s why so many elderly people get dumped in nursing homes by their loving children who will never visit them again. Yup, having children to become your future caregivers is obviously a fool-proof plan.

        I don’t understand…who is paying the nursing bill? Sure, it would be excellent if family actually VISITED, but don’t you think its worth anything that the family actually decided to put them up in a place where they can get the help they need?

        And what about all the families that DO come visit regularly?

        • Dave

          Often Medicare.

          Sometimes long term care insurance they already had.

          But, yes, you don’t understand. Having children is no guarantee of company in your old age. If that is why you want to have them (and let’s talk about selfish now), you might want to consider investing the money in insurance.

          • Guest 2

            That is only for places that accept government money.

            And I agree, the argument to have children to be taken care off is not a good one.

          • Dinky Londoner

            That only works if there’s a population to sustain the economy and provide the workers. It’s not the ‘not having children’ that’s selfish, it’s resenting those that do.

            • Michael

              No resentment here. And, have you looked at the world? We won’t be short of people anytime soon.

              • Anonymous

                they save all the money they would have spent on their kids to pay for their own retirement.

                • Dinky Londoner

                  Where? Under the mattress? And money doesn’t provide care, people do.

                  As I said previously, I agree with a lot in the original post, it’s the tone and resentment there (and both ways in the comments) that bothers me.

                  • Anonymous

                    possibly in a bank acccount or investments. Money can pay for care, accomodation and medical needs. The childless are less likely to become a burden on the state than those who squander millions of dollars on our kids who when they grow up don’t want or can’t afford to support the burden.

                    all I’m saying is kids are a bad retirement plan.

                    Agree about the comments, some people are taking her decision kind of personally..

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Drosenbach Dale Rosenbach

    Jewish female possess no obligation to procreate — your post is therefor quite similar to an essay on “Why I don’t like to eat guacamole.”

    • http://skepticbutjewish.blogspot.com SkepticButJewish

      Yes she does according to Judaism. The whole message behind the Adam and Eve story is that the man is the one who works and the woman is the one who kids birth to more people. There is a positive commandment in Bereishis (only one of three commandments in the entire book) that says that people need to procreate. You are rejecting the Torah if you say women have “no obligation to procreate”.

      • RS

        Actually that’s incorrect…according to Chazal, only men are required to procreate D’oraisa. Some say that women are obligated d’rabbonon but even that is a machlokes. Even if they are, it’s under the mitzvah of “lo letohu b’ra’a…” not “p’ru urvu.” A woman who is married is obligated to help her husband fulfill his mitzvah. Chazal decided that they couldn’t require women to do something that endangers their lives.

        • Michael

          Once again, this is 2010, not 500 BC, and basing your life decisions on a book that was written by men to subjugate women is always a mistake.

          • http://skepticbutjewish.blogspot.com SkepticButJewish

            You are wrong about the Torah being written by men to subjugate women. You are confusing the effect for the reason. That is, if one event leads to another event, it does not mean that the first event was done for the reason of achieving the second event. The second event is the effect, but it does not follow deductively that the second event was the purporse of doing the first event. For example, suppose I take with me a check, but I lost the check, it would be silly of me to say “I took the check with me for the purpose of losing it”; this is deducing the reason from an effect.

            The same is true with the Torah. The Torah was written by men, of course, but it was not written to subjugate women. It was written to gain control over the people. That was its entire purpose, as a consequence, women (and gays and heretic and just about everyone who is a bit different) were subjugated. But, it does not mean that the primitive animal sacrificing men purposely wrote the Torah to subjugate women. Men do not need a book to subjugate women, they can just use their own strength and power structure.

            • Law

              “You are wrong about the Torah being written by men to subjugate women. ”

              Actually not really, there is a reason that Eve is “the bad guy” in the story of Adam and Eve. Read “When God Was A Woman.”

              “Men do not need a book to subjugate women, they can just use their own strength and power structure.”

              There are many means which men use to this end, religion is a very handy tool to make the job easier.

              • http://skepticbutjewish.blogspot.com SkepticButJewish

                ” Actually not really, there is a reason that Eve is ‘the bad guy’ in the story of Adam and Eve. Read ‘When God Was A Woman.’ “:

                This is such a typical feminist response. They think that any injustice must always be about women. Read what I said. I said that the Torah does subjugate women, but I added that the Torah was not written for the sole purpose of subjugating women. It also subjugates homosexuals. If I was to say “the Torah was written to subjugate homosexuals” then I would be wrong. I said the Torah was written to have control over its subjects. As a result there are various forms of subjugations. One of which is to subjugate women. However, the subjugation of women was not the reason of the cause. Therefore, what I said is correct (unless you can manage to find a way to refute me, but I doubt it).

  • Q

    I decided when I was around 18 that I didn’t want children or even marriage (though I’m a normal male). I didn’t want the financial responsibility of supporting a family, and didn’t want to bring children into such a messed-up world. 17 years later, I haven’t changed my mind, though I do feel the loneliness of the choice I’ve made.

  • Guest 2

    Your reasons are not new. Its the same reasons obviously everyone else gives: Money & Freedom. No chidush and I am even curious as to why you feel like sharing this in a post. What did you have for dinner last night?

    I also agree with Yonitish. The logic is pretty sound. That is, if you are a human that works by pure logic and nothing else. My opinion: You will change your mind as you get older.

    I do find it fascinating though. I have met people that love children but don’t want them…but most of them all share this “pet thing.” As if the pet works as a surrogate, but with far less of the responsibility.

  • Phil

    I guess your doing your little part to help the nazis finish their job.

    That being said, I highly doubt kids would lead a happy life with someone that selfish & cracked up as their mom.

    • Dave

      Charming as always, Phil.

      • Rizzo

        I hate to be a jerk but im with Phil. If you don’t want kids im sure you have a good reason, but one should really try to have kids if at all possible. We have an OBLIGATION to bring kids into the world to keep the Jewish poepl going as it has from Abraham 3800 years ago. Yes, they are hard but the love is soooo much morethan anything imaginable.

        • Michael

          Why in the hell would someone feel obligated to have children based on a book that was written in a completely different time. That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard in my life.

          • Rizzo

            Its clear from your comment you know very little about Jewish Religion or History. Please read the first book the Torah and get back to me.. Rizzo is here all the time.

            • Michael

              Maybe so, but that was a different time then and a different society and culture. This is the 21st century, and no one should feel obligated to bring children into the world. That’s no better than some of those in the south saying that a woman’s place is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. It doesn’t fly there and this doesn’t fly either.

            • J

              I think Michael meant to ask why anyone should feel obligated to obey the commandments in a book written by men (!) simply because the commandment is written in the book.

              • Michael

                Once again, exactly.

            • eyebrow raised

              Refering to yourself in third person?
              Cmon, Really??…

    • McGuirk

      Ah, Godwin rears his ugly head.

      So, if those of Jewish descent decide they don’t want to reproduce, they’re helping the nazis, eh?

      And then you have the gall to call someone else ‘cracked up’?

  • Dave

    This is not rocket science.

    People who want children, can have them, and can take care of them, should have children.

    People who want children, cannot for whatever reason have them, and can take care of them, should adopt.

    People who don’t want children, or cannot take care of children, should not have them.

    People who abuse children should be flayed.

  • Mike

    Just make sure that the guys you date (assuming that you are heterosexual, and/or haven’t sworn off of dating too) are aware of this stance of yours UP FRONT. Othodox Jews aside, I suspect there are more guys out there who are not interested in having kids than girls. I’m sure there are some O. Jewish guys who feel the same way too, but generally speaking they are obligated to try and have a family, so that would require some creative “bending” of the rules on their part.

    My wife never considered herself particularly maternal, and it was only after giving birth, and taking care of our son that she developed an intense love for him (as well as our daughter now). In my own experience I always planned on having children, but not due to an emotional fixation on the idea–I just thought it was what one did. It occurs to me not that, when I was a single person, I couldn’t truly imagine how much I would love my children–even though I liked children very much, I never experienced anything resembling the intense love I have for my children (feelings which only developed over time BTW–I wasn’t running around sticking cigars in peoples mouths after they were born, I just viewed them as an important responsibility at that time).

    The above paragraph isn’t intended to convince you to give it a shot, though. If you had kids, taking it on faith that you would eventually love them, only to in the end be a miserable wife and mother–that would be extremely unfair to your spouse and children. Although there are a lot of flighty people out there who carry strong opinions they have no business holding, you seem to have enough of an understanding of your personality to know what you like and don’t like. I’m all for encouraging people to try this mitzvah or that, but not when it involves suckering some poor sap into a marriage, only to end up becoming a major disappointment to him. It’s better to find someone who shares your take on life, so you both can experience the pros and cons of your decision, without ruining the other’s dreams.

  • Frumy

    Good for you. You’re a smart woman.
    I have made this argument many times
    So many people say that a woman has the right to choose what she wants to do with her body
    And they are right about it,
    If a woman like you feels that she can’t handle kids then she shouldn’t have kids as you said
    The thing that I have a problem with is that these same women don’t take care of their body to make sure they don’t get pregnant in the first place.
    Then they don’t understand why people are against them for having an abortion.
    Let them take reasonability for their actions just like you and I do
    Use protection!
    I never got pregnant by mistake I have 5 kids ages 9 months – 14 years each one was planned.
    We take birth control when we don’t want to have kids plus let the guy use protection so we never get to the point of being a ‘victim’ for having an abortion

  • Isaac

    “The fact of the matter is that this world, right or wrong, places parents and children high above the people who cannot or do not want to have children.”

    –Statistically speaking, U.S. Birth Rates are at a record low.
    (See Article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/us/07births.html)
    As such, the Government needs to provide greater incentive for people to have children, part of which entails maternity leave and preferred parking. This may be difficult to realize, living in a Jewish community where everyone has exceptionally large families. However, the average number of children per family in the US is way below 2.0, meaning that every couple who decides to have a child is doing this country a great service. That doesn’t make it fair, just pragmatic.

  • http://righteousrasha.blogspot.com Tova

    Thanks for publishing it, Heshy. When we spoke on the phone last week I wasn’t sure you would actually go through with this, but I’m glad you did this. Thanks again. Also, I appreciate the fact that we disagree on this subject but are still able to discuss it maturely and without bingos (unlike so many of the comments here so far).

    As a side note, it always amazes me that whenever a childfree person explains how he thinks, there are always a number of those who choose to play Bingo with him:

    http://childfree.bloguje.cz/img/breeder_bingo_bw_small.jpg

    • Guest 2

      Ummmmm…..ya….

      So a guy took all the reasons some people give, and made a bingo board of it. WOW!

  • Frayda

    1. Valid argument
    2. Agree
    3. I get that
    4. So true

    Bottom Line- It’s not bad to be selfish. It takes all kind of people to make the world go round. I respect your choice.

    (However, I love having my “almost two year old” ;) and I think that if you did have a child, that child might bring you as much joy as my daughter has brought me)

  • Dave 2

    Why is it so hard to keep things civil?

  • Anonymous

    To each their own but your little I will…ending was rather douchie

  • Bryde

    I understand Tova. Your reasons are honest and part of many CF’s list of reasons-including mine.I was also told I would change my mind.I am sure some younger CF’s eventually DO change their minds.What I say to that is let time speak for itself.

    I think it is best to know you don’t want children,rather than to feel pushed. Sometimes that turns out well,sometimes it doesn’t.I think knowing you don’t want them is smart.It’s a smart position to take in the present and if you are CF to plan your life.How so?Simply meaning you will be aware you need to find a mate you doesn’t want kids.

    I never wanted kids either Tova.I had dolls and I played with them but the idea of being a Mom and all that entails NEVER appealed to me.I have nephews,whom I love dearly.I told my SIL I wanted a niece to round out four nephews and they are working on my order now,or so I am told.

    But that is what I love to be.I love to the the “cool aunt” and send them back home when the day is done.I’m 32 now and I still don’t want kids. My fiance doesn’t either.

    Stick to your guns my friend.

  • Aron

    Wow….you people really feel the need to come one somone’s blog just to insult them? This is a free country, we are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs…Tova may change her mind in the future, then again maybe she wont. Why do you care? Are you her family? Are you friends of hers? The answers are no, you are not. You are nothing but sad excuses for people and Jews who dont understand the principle of Lashon Harah nor the principle of “Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.” You simply feel the need to compesate for your own insecurities by trying to injure another human being.
    I advise you finally move out of your parent’s basement, get a job and get a life.

  • Aron

    Oh, and great post Tova!

  • Michael

    The poster posted this at the bottom of the post:

    “Isn’t puru urvu the first mitzvah in the Torah? Isn’t the whole purpose of making the world a better place, so that our offspring can enjoy that world and carry on our legacy?”

    The first mitzvah in the Torah talks about making the world a better place for “our” offspring. Why can’t a Jewish woman choose to be child-free and work to make the world a better place for all the rest of “your” offspring? How does that not accomplish the same principle?

    • Anonymous

      no it doesnt talk about that

    • Brad

      Because each principle is meant to be fulfilled by every individual. I cannot have kids for you, and you cant make it a better place for MY kids. You can make the world a better place. And there is a bonus in that. But if we are simply talking about one Jewish law or precept, then stick to its method.

      You could just say, I dont agree with the book, and thats fine too. Thats what it seems like anyway.

      I dont think there is much of an argument to be had here. It is a personal choice. The issue is that the author had no problem bashing the world that surrounds children and parents, eventhough she clearly states her disclaimer “They are entitled to do whatever they want”, why cant the same be said to her?

      People who DO have kids, think you are selfish, not because you are not entitled, but because the reasons for not wanting to kids shed light on her lack of maturity. Flying poop? Really? Thats what did the little egg in?

      Beyond Torah and what religious people might say, there is a fact of life. WOMEN are MADE, constructued, shaped, blah blah, to HAVE kids. NOW, they may choose not to. That is their G-d given right. But just be up front. They are going against the tide of their own nature, which at the age of 12-14 for most girls, is telling them Babies, Babies.

      Most women, dont have a problem with this, and therefore their process for having kids is Natural. There arent many good reasons out there for a woman to go against their own bodily nature. The first good one, that does come to mind, is abuse. Obviously if a woman has experienced some form of abuse that left some traumatic psycho, or physiological scars behind, then of course, she may not want to have kids.

      In the end, Tova is absolutely not at fault, and she doesnt owe the world a child(ren). However, if she wants to talk to the public about it, obviously being torn apart comes with the territory.

      It only seems that people come on here looking for a fight and looking for controversy when there is none to be had.

      Everyone keeps on saying the other can have their opinion, while in the same breath making it clear the opposing side is absolutely wrong.

      Have a child. Dont have one. The world will still be the same crazy place. But if you do have a child, and you’ve experienced the rewarding moments and connections, then you have something no one else has.

      • Michael

        That’s my issue, though. People are telling her that she’s obligated and doesn’t have a choice. That’s crap to me.

        • Brad

          Well it depends how your read it. Obligated? Yes. Like men are. If you follow the Torah then there are 613 core obligations. Are you forced? Hell no.

          Essentially the fact that people have a religious conviction that tells them they and every other able body is obligated to have kids, means that they want to, by the same token take away their right to choose? How does that add up.

          Religious Jews have a right to believe that every person has to have kids the same way every individual regardless of his or her religion has an absolute right to choose. To decide. To have kids or not.

          Again. There is no argument to be had here. You believe having kids is a commandment? Great. You don’t? Great. You want to have kids? Great. You don’t? Really? Ok great.

          Both sides just seem to be throwing words around without anyone looking for a resolution to a problem that doesn’t even exist.

          No one in their right American (or native of any “free country”) mind on this blog is suggesting that Tova should be forced to have kids or pressured in any way. People are allowed to disagree with her choice as they are allowed to voice their discontentment with her reasoning. On the same token anyone who supports her either through an imaginative opinion or by experience, yeh, you guessed it, they are fully entitled.

          The real big issues here and anywhere people can write and voice their opinions, it usually turns into a mudslinging fest all the while the poor little subject at hand is completely ignored.

          To sum it up:
          Tova is a nice young woman.
          She doesn’t like flying poop and crying
          She decided not to have kids
          Newsflash – she still doesn’t have any kids and at press time she isn’t close to it
          People disagree with her reasoning as well as her decision
          People will go home.
          People will sleep and awake.
          It’s a new day. Tova is still childless, childfree
          No one forced her to have a baby or at the very least even hold a toy doll

          So the real amazing thing here and again pretty much everywhere on the net, is that people don’t have enough drama in their lives so anywhere they can turn a word into a threat they are quick to unleash their most abnormal (nah it’s pretty normal these days) behavior.

          People get real. Live and let live. If only because you have no other choice.

          • Shira

            This is absolutely the best comment I’ve read so far. Seriously, I have nothing to add – you’ve said it all. (I was going to make a joke about wanting to have your babies, but this might not be the time/place)

            • Brad

              Hahaha. Thats funny, even without making the joke. Actually this would be the perfect place to make such a joke.

              And to compliment an already incendiary discussion, I would say let’s have a dozen or so. If we feel its too much, we can donate one to any childfree mother that ends up regretting their choice.

              Cancel, cancel.

    • RS

      Interestingly enough, Rambam does not list this as the first mitzvah in the Torah, as so many think it is. We actually don’t learn the mitzvah from Bereishit-we learn it from later on in the Torah, I don’t have the sefer with me now so I don’t remember where but I will look it up again bli neder.

  • http://2nd-son.blogspot.com/ G*3

    You are of course entitled to make your own desiccation about whether to have kids. That said, you make it sound as though there is a conspiracy to persecute those who choose to “childfree,” and you are valiantly standing up to it. Society encourages people to have children both because it makes for a more stable society and because ultimately the purpose of all life, including people, is to make more of itself.

    > In some businesses, workers who perform the same tasks as their co-workers are often given pay raises when they become pregnant.

    This is really about socialism vs pure capitalism. As you said yourself, children are expensive. In a purely capitalist system, you pay the job. In a less rigid system the needs of the person filling job may be taken into account.

    > Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot.

    Also economics. The only place I’ve seen this is stores that cater to parents. Having special parking encourages people to shop there.

    > Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die.

    So we should let Johnny die?! This isn’t a child vs no child thing, it’s a not putting people in needless danger thing.

    > Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times.

    Yes, people trump animals. I hope you don’t mean it this way, but you make it sound as if the parents should get rid of the kids and keep the dog.

    1. I can’t say for sure, but I think this overpowering mother instinct that you imagine most women have is a myth. People feel differently towards their own kids due to bonding. That you don’t feel an overwhelming need to care for other’s kids doesn’t mean you won’t feel that way about your own.

    2. You say you have a pet. You need to clean up after it, care for it, etc., no? Why is a child worse than a pet?

    4. This is probably the best argument you have, but you have to realize it does come across as selfish. Not that that makes it invalid, but realize that to many people it sounds like your saying, “This money is MINE, and I’m not sharing!”

    > Human nature is inherently selfish.

    No it’s not. Humans (and other primates) are highly social creatures with innate altruistic tendencies.

    > If your kids are cruel to your own pets or mine, I will contact the ASPCA and/or the police.

    Might it not be more constructive to teach the kids proper behavior than to traumatize them and antagonize their parents?

    Do whatever you want, but do you really need these weak rationalizations? “I don’t want to” is an acceptable reason not to do something all on its own.

  • http://2nd-son.blogspot.com/ G*3

    You are of course entitled to make your own desiccation about whether to have kids. That said, you make it sound as though there is a conspiracy to persecute those who choose to “childfree,” and you are valiantly standing up to it. Society encourages people to have children both because it makes for a more stable society and because ultimately the purpose of all life, including people, is to make more of itself.

    > In some businesses, workers who perform the same tasks as their co-workers are often given pay raises when they become pregnant.

    This is really about socialism vs pure capitalism. As you said yourself, children are expensive. In a purely capitalist system, you pay the job. In a less rigid system the needs of the person filling job may be taken into account.

    > Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot.

    Also economics. The only place I’ve seen this is stores that cater to parents. Having special parking encourages people to shop there.

    > Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die.

    So we should let Johnny die?! This isn’t a child vs no child thing, it’s a not putting people in needless danger thing.

    > Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times.

    Yes, people trump animals. I hope you don’t mean it this way, but you make it sound as if the parents should get rid of the kids and keep the dog.

  • http://righteousrasha.blogspot.com Tova

    Not sure if my first comment got through…so if it didn’t, here’s the gist of what I wrote earlier:

    Thanks for publishing me, Heshy. When we spoke on the phone last week, I wasn’t sure you’d do it but I’m glad you posted this. I’m glad we were able to discuss the issue maturely despite our disagreement, so unlike many of the comments here.

    • Brad

      Tova,

      I’ll commend you for your bravery. You could just sit at home and not share your personal feelings with a mass of unknowns, but you chose to bring it forward.

      You open yourself to criticism and more positively you can take solace in knowing there are others who share your feelings.

      I have a hard time believing though, that the reality of crying, pooping, eating, smelly and costly children is what did you in. I think there are other issues at hand, and you may not even be aware of.

      So lets all be clear. You ARE entitled. You are NOT a bad person for not wanting to have kids. Your reasoning certainly doesnt sit well with many people especially parents.

      As a parent, I can tell you that after experiencing the pooping, screaming, crying, tantrums, you name it, the only real concern at the end of the day is if we can protect our kids to the max and provide them the best.

      If this alone was your reason, it would be sufficient. I think what got most of this crowd crowing against you is the fact that you are young, inexperienced in the matter (of children), despite having such a formed opinion, and again your reasoning just doesnt add up.

      I wouldnt tell you to think differently, or that you will regret it. But if the reasons you listed above are what you’re working with, then you need to do a tad more searching within yourself just to be 100% this isn’t stemming from other points.

      In any case, there is what to enjoy as an unattached human in this existence, so make a life of it, and enjoy it for all its worth.

      Be Blessed

  • anonymous

    Nothing wrong with not wanting kids. Tova is being responsible, if she doesn’t feel ready for kids then why should anyone force her to be. It is her life.

    I have even worse issues to worry about with children. I am a Christian but wish I could raise kids (if I ever have any) Jewish. Or least that they would for sure not be anti-semites. That is like my worst nightmare since I was raised with Zionist beliefs and around Jewish people all the time. I’m afraid because I worry about it, that will make the risk even higher.

  • http://skepticbutjewish.blogspot.com SkepticButJewish

    “3. I’m a libertarian; consequently, I love freedom.”:

    This is a bad objection to having kids. What “freedom” means (I prefer the term “liberty”), if you understand the philosophy of self-ownership of John Locke, is simply the logical conclusion from the principle that people own themselves. It is freedom against authority. That is it! I love freedom too, but I understand what “freedom” really means. If you do not want to have kids because you incorrectly apply freedom then it would be consistent that you say that you do not want to have friends because friends give you responsibilities and so they take away your freedom. By your misunderstaning of what freedom means it would be consistent for you to say not to have a job, because a job creates responsibilities.

    Freedom, what it really means, is freedom from authority/power, not freedom of responsibility as you misunderstand it.

    “4. Kids are expensive. “:

    This is bad way to look at it from an economic point of you. Kids are like an investment. They can bring you a lot of joy. Sometimes they can help you later in your life when they get adults. Many older people depend on their children to help them out in life. Thus, kids pay themselves off in the future, and in many cases a big return profit for you.

    I do not want to have kids myself, and if I do, I rather adopt. But those two arguments that you use are not very good arguments.

    • McGuirk

      “Kids are like an investment. They can bring you a lot of joy.”
      Yeah, because when I’m diversifying my portfolio, I question how much joy I’ll reap from investing in something. Not how I’ll be better off for having done so or anything. Crazy.

      • G*3

        Kids are more like a purchase than an investment, from an economic point of view. We all buy things we think we are going to enjoy. That something is expensive is not in itself a reason not to buy it. Reasons not to buy expensive things may be that it is more than one can afford or that the price is too high for the amount of enjoyment one expects to get.

    • Michael

      She understands freedom. She understands what’s expected of her due to her faith and chooses to free herself from those expectations. Kids are very expensive, and you can’t count on them to bring you joy. I’ve seen lots of parents who were completely miserable because of their kids.

      • http://skepticbutjewish.blogspot.com SkepticButJewish

        “She understands freedom.”:

        It all depends how you use the word “freedom”. You can say “I want to be free” and mean to live your live in a way that is not oligated by your religion. Different people use “freedom” differently. I would have not called her out on point #3 that she brought up if she simply say “I want to be free”. However, she juxtaposes “libertarian” and “freedom”. This juxtaposition immediately forces a particular definition of “freedom”. That definition is the one that was defined by John Locke. I was saying that under Lockeian property rights her objection to having kids is a logical fallacy. Otherwise, I agree with you.

        “I’ve seen lots of parents who were completely miserable because of their kids.”:

        I agree with you here too. I think that Orthodox Jews should learn what a condom is.

  • Chanan

    I look at so many families with messed up kids, the parents are abusive, neglectful, or just clueless, and I think, the world would have been better off if these people had never had children. While I think that having children is great (easy for me to say, my wife has to give birth to them), not everybody should. Tova, kol ha’kavod that you’ve thought this through logically and have come to a reasoned conclusion. Better than other people who don’t think, just do, and 10 years down the line are thinking “My G-d, what have I done?!” (to paraphrase David Byrne).

    • Stan

      I dont care tova, but to think she’d be an abussive, neglectful mother? wow that may be the meanest comment on the blog. and there are some horrible ones

      • Chanan

        Wasn’t saying that about Tova, just mentioning that I wish some other people would have thought this through. As for Tova, I wanted to compliment her on making a well thought out decision.

  • justajew

    I respect your choice, and you had me until:

    “If you complain that you can’t walk across the parking lot while pregnant, I’ll tell you quite simply that you were obviously too unhealthy to reproduce in the first place.”

    What an idiotic comment. Pregnancy can add 30-50lbs to a person, cause pains in places you didn’t know you had, and make a simple walk across a parking lot a slow torturous nightmare (especially in the 3rd trimester). That’s assuming a 100% normal pregnancy.

    Agreed that you should not have kids – not only because you don’t want them, but because you seem to be lacking basic empathy.

    • Bryde

      Perhaps it sound un-empathetic but Tovah doesn’t lack empathy.I am speaking for myself (not for Tovah) but what bugs me about such parking is how easy it is to use.No one demands proof of pregnancy and I see plenty of skinny people (female AND male) use that parking.I use it,not because I am pregnant but because I find it annoying that while the handicapped must prove their issue,pregnancy doesn’t have to.

      I understand if you are far along in the pregnancy but so often the use of those spaces it not proper.However,in regards to walking,it is still so that women in countries less gluttonous than this one walk miles,work until they deliver and as soon as they deliver-so clearly it may hurt,it may take forever-but it isn’t something never done before.

      So those spaces are a posh pert that more often than not get used by people I would speculate about in terms of their pregnant state.

      • Guest 2

        >I use it,not because I am pregnant but because I find it annoying that while the handicapped must prove their issue,pregnancy doesn’t have to.

        My guess is because handicapped spaces are law, while pregnant spaces are something the stores choose to bestow on their customers and are not enforceable by law. Its a shame you take advantage of this courtesy (as well as anyone else using it when not pregnant).

        And whats the big deal. Yes, I think pregnant spots are not really needed. But why the hell is it bugging some of you so much?

        • Bryde

          G2-I agree with you.I would prefer they not be there at all.

    • Michael

      Its not idiotic to me. Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time. Its not gonna get any easier when it pops out, so get used to it early. I park in those spots, too. Because someone’s popped out a couple of crumb snatchers doesn’t make them any better than me. My mom never got close places, so screw them.

      • Phil

        Michael,

        I suppose you wouldn’t give up your subway seat either. She’s pregnant, should have kept her legs closed… Maybe old people should stay home as they clog traffic by walking too slow, and handicaps should stay indors as they are a nuisance.

        • Michael

          Now you’re putting words in my mouth. Did your mother ever have a stork parking spot? I’m betting not. Did she have any problems getting into the store? I’m betting not. Handicapped and the elderly didn’t put themselves into their situations. Pregnant women do. If they can walk around a store for 30 minutes to an hour, they can walk further in the parking lot.

          • Phil

            Michael,

            Pregnant women in the 3rd trimester have lot’s of trouble keeping their balance when walking. Whether or not the women chose to be pregnant is irrelevant. Anyone with common courtesy would leave the spot to a pregnant woman.

            If a parking lot gave them a special spot, it’s because they don’t want them being vulnerable to slipping on snow or ice. They are motivated by concern or simply afraid of expensive lawsuits.

            Whether or not your mom had the same parking privilege is irrelevant too. You mom never had an internet connection growing up, and she didn’t spend her evenings posting comments on blogs, yet you seem to be fine doing so.

            • Michael

              I guess I’ll just have to be discourteous, then, because there’s nothing special about a pregnant woman that merits a special parking place. If its really that bad, have their OB/GYN get them a handicapped placard, and then I’ll happily leave it to them. Otherwise, if they get knocked up, as far as I’m concerned, they can walk just like the rest of us, because I’ll park there.

              • Guest 2

                >Otherwise, if they get knocked up, as far as I’m concerned, they can walk just like the rest of us, because I’ll park there

                Why be a jerk about it? Its not like you have some inherit right to that parking spot. Its private property and the owners have asked us to give those marked spaces to ladies that are pregnant.

                And its not like its on every store. These are around in toy stores or baby stores.

              • Wow

                Wow what a bunch of BULL****. Someone who believes they know everything about pregnancy, yet has never had children and is not a doctor, obviously. Pregnant women in their third trimester have a lot of difficulty getting around, in EVERY COUNTRY. IN the WORLD. Also, there is the possibility of going into labor before their due date and if that should happen in a store, they would obviously want to make as quick an exit as possible. My local walmart – the grocery store- has a stork parking space. I am so disgusted by people who think its “annoying”. Women get themselves “into” these situations?Remember, your mother was pregnant. Have some damn respect. I am. Sure you are one of those ppl who won’t give a bus seat to a standing pregnant woman. Just saying.

            • omg

              this is the first time EVER I have agreed with Phil!

      • Dinky Londoner

        I thought you were reasonable until this comment. Now you’ve lost me.

      • G*3

        > Because someone’s popped out a couple of crumb snatchers doesn’t make them any better than me.

        Better than you? What’s that got to do with anything? The store, which owns the parking lot, decided to designate these spots, most probably because it’s good for business. If they decide to make special spots for people with brown mustaches, that’s also their right.

  • You are the opposite of selfish

    My mother and many nurses I know worked until the ninth month of pregnancy. I can’t stand those parking spots for the pregnant mothers. Anyway. I agree with Tova here. Not all women must have children. That is so ridiculous. Especially since this is the United States of America where we are free to do what we please. I never understood certain cultures that are practiced in the United States that are so opressive. I know many women here in NYC who become baby machines at 20 years old and are on Medicaid. They cannot even save enough money to take a weekend trip to the poconos. I choose not to have children and I go on vacations a hundred times a year and have friends all over the world. I make less money than “the working families” because my taxes subsidize them. I am not only talking about me funding the poor families of our society, but the “middle class” tax cuts come from my paycheck.

    Women who do not want marriage and children are the OPPOSITE OF SELFISH. There are people out there like myself who are porductive in other areas. People volunteer. I bring my two dogs to the hospital as therapy dogs to see terminally ill patients and stroke patients. Some people run charities. People work as nurses and doctors and save lives for a living and do not want to go home to a family because they have already contributed to society in some other way.

    I am by all means not “anti-children.” Children are wonderful and innocent. The way they smile over the simplist things is incredible. Some people “missed the boat” in having children. There is a plan; a bigger plan that God has for all of us.

    Anyway. Just because Tova does not want children does not make her a bad person. I think it makes her and amazing person. She and I are taking an awesome vacation sometime soon! No need to hire any babysitters. I have a message for all the haters on this page. Get a life. Really!

    • Guest 2

      >Women who do not want marriage and children are the OPPOSITE OF SELFISH. There are people out there like myself who are porductive in other areas. People volunteer. I bring my two dogs to the hospital as therapy dogs to see terminally ill patients and stroke patients. Some people run charities. People work as nurses and doctors and save lives for a living and do not want to go home to a family because they have already contributed to society in some other way.

      You are arguing a strawman here. Your argument- here at least – only works for women that actually DO all those things you listed. Do all women that are childless contribute to humanity? No of course not. Besides, I may be wrong, but I don’t think people are saying Tova is an overall selfish person, but her reasoning behind not wanting kids come from selfish desires.

      >I know many women here in NYC who become baby machines at 20 years old and are on Medicaid.

      Another strawman. Whats the point for this extreme example? Who here is arguing to be a baby machine and live off the government?

  • Shadow

    Very nicely written article, and you’re brave indeed to have published it knowing how many retards would come out of the woodwork, abandon their Farmville plantations, and turn away from Jerry Springer while their children drown in the toilet just to tell you how wrong/selfish/stupid/immature/etc. you are. I don’t know about you, but I think my bingo card is plenty full five or six times over from the hayseed mommies and daddies putting in their sense-free two cents.

    Here’s a news flash for the lurking parents: Just because someone chooses a different life ath than you does not make them wrong, stupid, or naive. F*** you people. Being a parent does not make you know everything or make you a good person…after all, plenty of parents are criminals, scam artists, thieves, sexual predators, and even murderers. Someone who knows how they want to live their lives and who has to foresight to make that choice happen is someone who is mature, rational, and obviously has a worldly view of life. Just because you pricks don’t agree with someone else’s choices does not make that person wrong. It makes you wrong for insulting them. Fess up, mommies and daddies – you don’t like that someone dares not give you validation for your choice.

    And the ‘selfish’ thing makes no sense – everybody has to be a little selfish now and then. Some of you people act like having children is an obligation. It isn’t…it’s an option, and choosing to not change your life forever in a huge way because you don’t need or want to is not selfish. The ones here saying otherwise need to do a lot more growing up before being let out of their cages. If you can’t handle that someone made a different decision than you, stay the hell home and live under your rock forever.

  • ishchayill

    I somehow suspect that you will change your mind down the line–when the clock ticks louder.

    • Michael

      We’re in our 30’s, we let our clock run out, and we’re glad its off.

    • JayJay

      Some of us have thinking capabilities that override our biology. If this mythical clock started ticking, I’d just volunteer more. I do not like the experiment of bringing a new life into the world so I will not do it. Simple.

  • fgk

    I have only seen ‘stork parking’ at Babies R Us which makes a lot of sense. Anyway, as a pregnant woman walking may not be the issue, finding a bathroom is a bigger one.

  • frum and childfree

    Kol haKavod Tova! We too are childfree by choice, because although I love kids, I really love being able to send them back to their parents at the end of the day and not having to be responsible for all their mdeical/ emotional/ financial needs. Even though I don’t agree with all your reasons (especially since I think pets are just as annoying as kids if not more), I appreciate you having the guts to say these things. I wish more frum people were willing to accept our choice to be childfree and stop pressuring so hard to make a decision that we know would be wrong for us. Thanks for sharing your ideas, and may you always know happiness either with or without the rugrats. ;)

  • John

    wow great job recruiting this post hesh, Over 100 comments, in less than 12 hrs. Is that a record?
    Though its a bit shocking how quickly the name-callling got out of control (I guess thats partly my fault, but tova deserved it, she knows why)

    • Bryde

      John,no one deserves to be called names for any reason. Apparently,you have some previous issue with Tova. You should keep that previous issue in its place.Instead,you’ve come off looking like an unintelligent lout.

      • John

        It doesnt matter to me how I come off, you dont know me and you never will. In case your wondering, on another post she said “most [frum] weddings I attend involve couples that dont like each other.” I was startled by this shocking accusation, and yes i was offended (perhaps a little too much but that is my right), and asked her to explain what she has seen (seems to be a fair request for such a damning statement. I wont rest until she either explains herself or admits to being a liar.

    • Michael

      That’s the most immature, ignorant thing I’ve ever heard. You need to learn to grow up and have an adult conversation.

      • John

        a. your a liar if you claim thats the most immature ignorant thing youve heard (see spidey’s comments on this post)
        b. mind your own buisiness

        • John

          oh and try not to be a douche and correct my your/youre typo

        • Michael

          I hadn’t seen spidey’s comments when I wrote this. I would have to agree with you there. If you post here, it is my business. Not being a douche, but if you write it, write it correctly.

    • Esther

      I would have never predicted this based on the original article posted, but it really did bring out some strong reactions and a record number of comments, seemingly. It’d be nice to see stats of how it compares to other popular posts. I’m shocked it “outcommented” the Rubashkin post.

      I can’t say I’m shocked about the name-calling. The original article set the tone. I wasn’t going to comment on that aspect of it, but I’ve changed my mind. Earlier on I addressed the actual valid points made in the article and now I’d like to address the overall tone of it. It was not just matter of fact, stating a viewpoint and putting it out there for feedback, but rather sounded defensive, resentful, envious and belligerent. I don’t know whether all these descriptors apply to Tova in general, but they certainly do apply to this article that she wrote. As I’ve said before, every individual has a choice. Live and let live. If you choose to live childfree, then so be it. Don’t harp on the parents for their choice to have kids though and don’t dissect everything you find wrong with their (mine) lifestyle just as you wouldn’t want those who disagree with your choice to dissect your life.

      • Stan

        Couldnt agree more!!
        Very well said Esther, i love agreeing with you

  • http://darksinger1.tripod.com Zatoth

    I love how the proud parently ones take any comment against having kids as a personal attack. They think anyone who says “I want to remain child free” is a freakin’ teen who “doesn’t know better yet”. Gods forbid you are a forty something who is not interested in spawning like trout at mating season.

    And as someone who has had handicapped relatives, keep your preggo butt out of the crippled spots! Your condition ends after 9 months-disabled people’s do not! They should have priority on the parking spots near the store, not some knocked up floozy! Don’t give me this “extra weight”-I haul enough weight for another person every day and I park far from the door. If I can haul my fat butt up there, so can you with a mere 20 extra pounds.

    • spidey

      Zatoth, you are a f#cking piece of shit, lardass. Because you are a lazy motherf#cker who is the size of an elephant due to lousy eating habits and lack of all self respect you weigh far more than you should. However, a pregnant woman, or a “knocked up floozy” as you so eloquently described her, is to be lauded for her weight gain. I say that you can walk your fat ass everywhere. Let the pregnant women have a little slack, they haven’t gained weight due to their goddamn unhealthy lifestyle, which incidentally is the cause of most health issues in this country.

      • Michael

        Once again, way to be shallow there and try to distract from the topic, since you have no idea how to craft a well-thought out post. And, you’re right. Pregnant women don’t gain weight from an unhealthy lifestyle. They gain it from getting f*cked! That is such a reason to get cut some slack, isn’t it? It takes effort not to get pregnant. Getting knocked up isn’t some crutch. Its crap.

        • spidey

          Michael, do I hear you criticizing the very act of procreation, you misogynistic bastard? Don’t you realize that although you, Tova, and Zatoth choose not to reproduce, thank G-d, the world we live in requires some human beings to breed to keep the population viable? You are trying to make it seem as if choosing not to have children is a saintly act and having kids is a sin. Motherf#cker. Pregnant women are the most productive members of society, and their wombs are the most precious resource a society possesses. Isn’t that a reason to protect them and “cut some slack”? Oh, and f#ck you too.

          • Bryde

            First he’s a f*ggot and THEN he’s a mother*ucker?Spidey-make up you mind. Puny mind with small,smutty thoughts how appropriate for a troll.

            • Zatoth

              i’m not saying being child free is a “saintly act”…but face it, neither is having offspring: “so easy, a jellyfish can do it”. it’s giving birth to a child, not creating a planet or a god. for the past few million years, it has been done by many creatures with varying degrees of intellect. and some of them walked pretty damn while bearing kids…

          • Michael

            I didn’t criticize procreation, but getting knocked up is not something holy. Its a by-product of getting banged. I never said that having kids is a sin. I said that it us choosing not to have kids is a choice and should be respected, which many, including you, choose not to do. We haven’t attacked parents for having kids, but we get attacked for not having them. See the double standard here? Pregnant women are not the most productive members of society. They are no more productive than any other individual, except for you. They beat you hands down for productivity. Wombs aren’t natural resources. They’re just tools, and not ones that you’ve ever used. They’re just normal women. They get no slack.

      • Zatoth

        I will take the fact I am being insulted by a comic book geek accordingly….

  • sarah

    I am the mother of the aforementioned 8 year old, and I cannot for the life of me understand why any parent would think a person who chose to be childfree was crazy. seriously :)

  • Anon

    As much as I tried to keep this comment less harsh than my thoughts against you, I am glad that you at least acknowledge what a selfish individual you are. People who are genuinely childless would want to throw rocks at people like you. Just had to get that out of the way.

    I hope you don’t expect to find a husband that easily…because honestly most men want to build a family together with their wives. After all, isn’t that the purpose of marriage? Not saying you have to get pregnant on your wedding night or anything, but I always thought the point of marriage was to create a family with a partner you share views and values with. Someone who completes you and you complete as well. Because let’s face ,it, Hollywood love is all an illusion. There is no such thing as real red-roses romance. Sure, it is a phase at the beginning of a relationship, but it fades,in some cases more quickly than others, but the ultimate is the same. So why even get married if you don’t want a family?

    If you don’t have normal female instincts like that, I honestly just pity you, for you do not know what you are missing out on. Many people do not even like children at all, BESIDES FOR THEIR OWN. I would say “don’t knock it until you tried it”, but no child deserves a parents with views like yours.

    I am assuming you are fairly young and I am hoping that you change your mind sometime soon before it is too late, and laugh at your ignorance one day down the road. Otherwise, I hope you have fun some-odd years down the road when you are an old maid sitting alone in your dark apartment, wishing you were like your “friends” who are now busy with their own families.

    • Bryde

      I’m not getting married to have kids no.We are a family of two and THAT is enough.Maybe I’m marrying because I like the “legal sex” or for added security or for shock of shocks,because I love the person I’m marrying.I don’t feel the need to “show my love” by having his baby,nor does he feel the need to prove his virility by impregnating me.

      You marry out of a readiness to commit to a person you care deeply about.You can start a family without marriage easier than you can sign the paperwork and be legal spouses!

      As I stated previously,just because Tova or other CF’s (like myself) don’t have the “urge” to have kids doesn’t mean we lack care,compassion and the want to care for something….for me,it’s dogs.

      And no,I don’t think a woman who was barren would throw rocks a Tova,that’s just plain ridiculous and immature to say.

    • Anonymous

      We are genuinely childless, and before that we wanted to be childfree. Now that we’re childless, we throw no stones. Also, I know lots of guys who aren’t interested in being dads, so I think she’ll be fine. Actually, no. The purpose of marriage is to spend the rest of your life with the person you love. There is nothing that says children are the point of marriage. Two people are a family just as much as 4 or 5 people. I’m really getting sick of people telling others that they don’t know what they’re missing out on if they don’t have the instinct to start a family. Don’t presume to know someone. We know exactly what we’re missing. A lot of stress and a lot of heartache. I’m good without it. The ignorance is yours as you assume that your mindset is the only correct one. You might want to take those blinders off sometime soon. Truthfully, no child deserves a parent with ignorant views like yours.

  • http://kathconserv@gmail.com TOVA is awesome

    THE PEOPLE HERE THAT SAY THAT TOVA IS A DISSAPOINTMENT TO HER PARENTS ARE SAYING THAT TO MAKE THEMSELVES FEEL MORE IMPORTANT. YOU ARE PURE EVIL.

  • Anonymous

    My liberal side says:

    Certainly there are people who are physically capable of having children, but emotionally and mentally, cannot. With so much focus given to homosexuals, much less attention is being paid to asexuals. How often are these folks ridiculed for behaving unnaturally and immorally? When are they doing to design a flag, hold a pride parade, and become a protected minority group?

    My satiric side says:
    They don’t need kids, twenty cats can cost as much as one kid. And when you get old, nursing home attendants provide will provides as much more joy and support as children and grandchildren. Isn’t it better to intermarry than remain asexual? But according to our rabbonim, it’s better to be permanently abstinent than a practicing homosexual.

  • jay

    My liberal side says:

    Certainly there are people who are physically capable of having children, but emotionally and mentally, cannot. With so much focus given to homosexuals, much less attention is being paid to asexuals. How often are these folks ridiculed for behaving unnaturally and immorally?

    My satiric side says:
    They don’t need kids, twenty cats can cost as much as one kid. And when you get old, nursing home attendants provide will provide as much more joy and support as children and grandchildren. Isn’t it better to intermarry than remain asexual?

    But according to our rabbonim, it’s better to be permanently abstinent than a practicing homosexual. When are the asexuals going to design a flag, hold a pride parade, and become a protected minority group?

  • Yochanan

    My 2 cents:

    People who want 10 kids and people that don’t want kids are two opposing extremes.

    Tova I don’t know you and therefore cannot tell if you are a selfish person or not. However, this whole childfree movement seems to me to come from a spoiled youth-obsessed Western mindset. Go ahead, tie your tubes and don’t have kids. But just remember, you were taken care of as a kid by adults who were once kids. When you get older, you will be taken care of by other people’s grown-up children. (Cue in Circle of Life song)

    • Michael

      I’m good being taken care of by other’s children. I don’t see the problem with that as all. I also don’t see this as coming from a spoiled, youth-obsessed mindset. I see this as coming from a world that is overcrowded and has too many hungry children already. Sounds really selfish, huh?

      • Dinky Londoner

        Then why do you resent them?

        • Michael

          I don’t resent anyone. I just take offense with being judged because I don’t want children. If everyone would respect our choice, it would be fine, but they don’t.

      • Yochanan

        Are you spending your childfree time feeding hungry children?

        Are other chidfree couples going around trying to find cures for AIDS and malaria?

  • sarah

    Because convincing people who don’t want kids to have them works out *so* well.

    You should all be happy you won’t be subsidizing her lifestyle like you do for half the frum community.

  • tikunolam

    Not only are you not selfish, you are doing what is best for your hypothetical child. All children should be wanted and only people who both want them and have the ability to properly raise them should have them.

    Kudos to you and from one woman (who loves being a mom) to another enjoy your childfree life!

    • http://twitter.com/MarkSoFla Mark

      What she said!

  • ChildFreeOne

    Tova, I am also Jewish and childfree. I’m in my 50’s and have been married to a wonderful man for 25 years and we’ve never regretted not having children for one minute. Stay strong and don’t listen to the naysayers. It shouldn’t matter to them whether or not you have kids. Me thinks they protest too much, and you have to ask yourself why, jealousy perhaps?

    Also, you are not selfish. It would be selfish if you didn’t want children and then had them just to appease the naysayers. Not having children when you don’t want them is the most unselfish act.

    • Guest 2

      >Me thinks they protest too much, and you have to ask yourself why, jealousy perhaps?

      Ummm…she wrote a post, on a public blog, asking for feedback….and she got it.

      • Law

        Actually not really. She got very little useful feedback (which she didn’t ask for) and a truckload of other people’s insecurity.

  • Anonymous2

    What about people who don’t want to get married? (Duck!)

  • Dinky Londoner

    146 comments! Wow! It’s after 2am here, so no time to read all of them right now, but here are a few thoughts on the post itself (and the first few comments). Hope I don’t repeat anyone else’s points.
    I myself am in my 40s, married and without children, mainly out of choice, so I do sympathise with a lot of what was said in the main post. Not wanting children is not automatically selfish, and smug people who are so sure we don’t know what’s best for ourselves (and our families) are seriously deluded.
    Having said that, much of the post did sound pretty selfish to me (though the writer may simply be overcompensating).
    I would NEVER describe myself as ‘childfree’, nor call having children ‘reproducing’, nor label children as ‘rugrats’, nor begrudge mothers and pregnant women what they receive from the state (I doubt many get special pay rises from their employers), or flexible working to allow them to parent properly, or time off for health issues. In fact, when I see parents with children, all I feel is relief and gratitude at all their hard work and sacrifices so that when I’m older, they’ll be indirectly providing me with a Jewish community, a pension, healthcare, goods & services etc. A future. Obviously that’s only if they’re brought up decently, but badly-bahaved kids impact on everybody, including other parents & kids.
    One other point – one of the (small) things that scrared me off having children myself was the often ridiculous judgementalism of others – usually other mothers, but not always. The poster sounds just like the sort of person who’d be overly critical of someone else’s parenting skills. I’m just glad I won’t be at the receiving end.

  • Bryde

    At what point is Tova old enough to REALLY decide to be childfree? What reasons to be childfree will be good enough for any of you who disagree?I’m betting never and none will be the answers.? What reasons will YOU consider mature?Again,I bet the answer will be none.

    Nothing will ever be enough to those of you who are attacking her.You if there were answers to that then it would mean you could respect a difference of paths in life.Clearly,some of you can’t.

  • YitzV

    I find the ignorance of so-called enlightened observant people usually entertaining. Provincialism and backwardness are often funny, as the Beverly Hillbillies aptly attest. But, ignorance in so called enlightened people is depressingly disappointing.

    I expect emotional knee-jerk reactions in neoconservative BT,s where apparently listening to Rush Limbaugh is part of the RamBam’s test of Judaism. But Jews who have an obvious desire to keep an open mind (they did find themselves in this website) should, in fact KEEP AN OPEN MIND.

    A thinking young woman who gives a cogent theory for her current lack of desire to procreate should be cheering her honesty and ability to think, rather than become another baby and milk vending machine. A woman who comes to motherhood full of desire for that life-choice will love every day and treasure her children. A girl forced into it when she doesn’t want it will become a bitter shell of herself, raiding children who know they were resented, and perpetuating unhappy Jewish youth.

    Aishet Chayil? You’re looking at one in Tova, if you would only open your eyes and see. A woman of valour is a woman of intellectual honesty and self-awareness. The Unexamined Life is not Worth the Living, and The Unexamined Faith is not Worth the Having.

  • RJ

    I personally would respect her more if her reasons weren’t mostly relating to pure outright selfishness. For example…something along the lines of “I don’t think I would be a good mother/am not capable of taking care of a child” without all these bashings of motherhood through trivial things such as diapers, and “I want to have more money for myself” views. I’m sorry, but that is outright selfish sounding of her. It’s not the fact that she doesn’t want to have kids that makes me have these foul opinions of her, it’s how incredibly selfish and full-of-the-items-in-babies’-diapers she sounds.

    • Michael

      Some people just don’t want to deal with this. If these things would affect their ability to be good parents, it isn’t selfish to say no to kids. Hate to bust your bubble, but that’s the way I see it.

      • Guest 2

        Michael,

        You may actually be right. ie, that her reasoning is what might CAUSE her to be a bad parent. And THAT in my opinion is problem at its foundation.

  • ghottistyx

    Wow, this one went viral. Over 170, and before I ever got to throw anything in!

    Well Tova, I am happy to see that you’ve gotten the support you have. While I can’t agree with some of your finer points, as one who is 30 and still remains a dead-end in his family’s gene pool, I would probably be a bit of a hypocrite if I were to argue too much against it. I do respect your rights to not want children of your own and applaud you for willing to be outspoken about it, knowing what odds you are facing in this filial-centric world of ours.

    For those of you who have been resorting to cheap ad-hoc arguments–I especially include Spidey and John, but there are others–play time is over. Many of us graduated from grade school quite some time ago, please get with the program. If you can’t have a serious discussion and maturely disagree with those who have different opinions than you, I hate to see how your kids (if you ever have them) will turn out.

    But there is one major point I will agree with here. There are many people in this world who should not have children. The decision to have a kid should be a more serious thing than it is for many people. So much as I like to disagree with the “I never want to have kids” mentality, I would never force upon anyone that they should ever have a kid as more likely than none, they’d probably be adding to the problem.

    And as for the prospect of being a genetic-pool dead end, or awarding the Nazis a victory…I’m hung on that one. This I need to ponder more.

  • Bryde

    CF’s could say we were doing it for any of the MANY reason we choose not to have children-and it would NEVER satisfy the opposition.

    What CF’s see is how much parents seem to want.First they want special treatment just for procreating.So what?Every other mammal on the planet does it too.

    The people we speak of endless feel entitled-tax breaks,parking spaces,Medicaid,WIC,someone to take care of them in old age,grandchildren,slave labor (not that I disagree with that use for your kids-everyone should have chores),and the like.There are the endless tales of labor,special perks at work,and the list goes on and on and on.On top of that they think everyone should care about there “unique creation”. Truth is not everyone does.We share 98% of the same genes and chimps and 25% of the same genes as bananas. All we see is a child-centric culture even though the world population is bloated with unwanted “miracles”.We need to focus on caring for the children who are hear before bitching about a group who chooses NOT to reproduce because they have the right to make that choice.

    • Guest 2

      >We share 98% of the same genes and chimps and 25%

      implying what? You care for a human child less than a chimp because genetically we are identical?

      >to reproduce because they have the right to make that choice.

      who said they don’t have the right?

      How did politics even get into the discussion. Entitlement?, work? parking spaces? How is all this relevent?

  • G*3

    You are of course entitled to make your own decision about whether to have kids. That said, you make it sound as though there is a conspiracy to persecute those who choose to “childfree,” and you are valiantly standing up to it. Society encourages people to have children both because it makes for a more stable society and because all life, including people, is programmed to make more of itself.

    > In some businesses, workers who perform the same tasks as their co-workers are often given pay raises when they become pregnant.

    This is really about socialism vs pure capitalism. As you said yourself, children are expensive. In a purely capitalist system, you pay the job. In a less rigid system the needs of the person filling job may be taken into account.

    > Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot.

    Also economics. The only place I’ve seen this is stores that cater to parents. Having special parking encourages people to shop there.

    > Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die.

    So we should let Johnny die?! This isn’t a child vs no child thing, it’s a not putting people in needless danger thing.

    > Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times.

    Yes, people trump animals. I hope you don’t mean it this way, but you make it sound as if the parents should get rid of the kids and keep the dog.

    1. I can’t say for sure, but I think this overpowering mother instinct that you imagine most women have is a myth. People feel differently towards their own kids due to bonding. That you don’t feel an overwhelming need to care for other’s kids doesn’t mean you won’t feel that way about your own.

    2. You say you have a pet. You need to clean up after it, care for it, etc., no? Why is a child worse than a pet?

    4. This is probably the best argument you have here, but you have to realize it does come across as selfish. Not that that makes it invalid, but realize that to many people it sounds like your saying, “This money is MINE, and I’m not sharing!”

    > Human nature is inherently selfish.

    No it’s not. Humans (and other primates) are highly social creatures with innate altruistic tendencies.

    > If your kids are cruel to your own pets or mine, I will contact the ASPCA and/or the police.

    Might it not be more constructive to teach the kids proper behavior than to traumatize them and antagonize their parents?

    You are entitled to do whatever you want, and you don’t really need these weak rationalizations. “I don’t want to” is an acceptable reason all on its own.

  • Jurgen

    It truly astounds me the sheer volume of hate directed by those who think everyone should pop out a dozen or so screech owls. I am now anti-screech owl, but may someday find myself of a different opinion; however I see no sense in badgering and name calling of somone I may disagree with when I have not had a face to face confrontation.

    Some of you “adults” need to mature, as you surely have grown up. Which is an interesting topic of discussion, the concept that age equals maturity; I have noticed that this is never the case. So give it a rest, along with the name calling.

    • Guest 2

      Jurgen’s comment is a good example of more strawmen and smearing.

      – Nobody has arguing to pop out dozens of children. If this were so, the vast majority of us with only two kids would receive the hate speech. The conversation is about HAVING kids, not HOW MANY kids.

      – While you complain about hate being directed, I doubt you condemn those that having been calling the “pro-kids” side as sheep do you?

      – I would agree with you that we can dispense with the nazi arguments, but I really don’t see a “sheer volume” of hate in this blog.

      • Jurgen

        Guest #2,

        Excuse the hyperbole of the quantity of children. I just had a phrase and ran with it. The hate is there, though maybe I just picked up on it more closely.

        I will gladly condemn those who made the sheep statements. They are possibly hedonists, who believe that life should be one grand party.

  • Anonymous

    a

  • G*3

    You are of course entitled to make your own decision about whether to have kids. That said, you make it sound as though there is a conspiracy to persecute those who choose to “childfree,” and you are valiantly standing up to it. Society encourages people to have children both because it makes for a more stable society and because all life, including people, is programmed to make more of itself.

    > In some businesses, workers who perform the same tasks as their co-workers are often given pay raises when they become pregnant.

    This is really about socialism vs pure capitalism. As you said yourself, children are expensive. In a purely capitalist system, you pay the job. In a less rigid system the needs of the person filling job may be taken into account.

    > Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot.

    Also economics. The only place I’ve seen this is stores that cater to parents. Having special parking encourages people to shop there.

    > Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die.

    So we should let Johnny die?! This isn’t a child vs no child thing, it’s a not putting people in needless danger thing.

    > Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times.

    Yes, people trump animals. I hope you don’t mean it this way, but you make it sound as if the parents should get rid of the kids and keep the dog.

    1. I can’t say for sure, but I think this overpowering mother instinct that you imagine most women have is a myth. People feel differently towards their own kids due to bonding. That you don’t feel an overwhelming need to care for other’s kids doesn’t mean you won’t feel that way about your own.

    2. You say you have a pet. You need to clean up after it, care for it, etc., no? Why is a child worse than a pet?

    4. This is probably the best argument you have here, but you have to realize it does come across as selfish. Not that that makes it invalid, but realize that to many people it sounds like you’re saying, “This money is MINE, and I’m not sharing!”

    > Human nature is inherently selfish.

    No it’s not. Humans (and other primates) are highly social creatures with innate altruistic tendencies.

    > If your kids are cruel to your own pets or mine, I will contact the ASPCA and/or the police.

    Might it not be more constructive to teach the kids proper behavior than to traumatize them and antagonize their parents?

    You are entitled to do whatever you want, and you don’t really need these weak rationalizations. “I don’t want to” is an acceptable reason all on its own.

    • Guest 2

      >No it’s not. Humans (and other primates) are highly social creatures with innate altruistic tendencies.

      I agree with everything you wrote except this. If I recall correctly, you are a new parent no? I don’t suppose you have been amongst a group of kids lately have you? There is nothing altruistic about the vast majority of them. Goodness, needs to be taught.

      • G*3

        It’s not just my opinion, and it’s not based on personal observation or a rosy view of humanity. Research has shown that people (and interestingly, other primates such as bonobos and chimps) have a tendency to behave altruistically. It’s theorized that this is because those who behave altruistically form better societies which out-compete less-altruistic societies. Very young children behave the way they do because they have not yet developed an awareness of other people as entities similar to themselves.

        Not that people are wholly altruistic and never selfish. Far from it. But “human nature” does lean more towards altruism than towards selfishness.

        Sorry about the multiple posts. My comments weren’t showing up yesterday, and after trying to comment a couple of times I gave up. Then I look now, and I see that all of my attempts posted. This is probably futile, but Heshy, could you remove the duplicates?

        • Guest 2

          >Very young children behave the way they do because they have not yet developed an awareness of other people as entities similar to themselves.

          Would you say then that a child, would start being altruistic if those around him did not teach him certain values? Even simple ones? That eventually they would simply realize on their own, to do good? Or not be selfish? etc etc

  • G*3

    You are of course entitled to make your own decision about whether to have kids. That said, you make it sound as though there is a conspiracy to persecute those who choose to “childfree,” and you are valiantly standing up to it. Society encourages people to have children both because it makes for a more stable society and because all life, including people, is programmed to make more of itself.

    > In some businesses, workers who perform the same tasks as their co-workers are often given pay raises when they become pregnant.

    This is really about socialism vs pure capitalism. As you said yourself, children are expensive. In a purely capitalist system, you pay the job. In a less rigid system the needs of the person filling job may be taken into account.

    > Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot.

    Also economics. The only place I’ve seen this is stores that cater to parents. Having special parking encourages people to shop there.

    > Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die.

    So we should let Johnny die?! This isn’t a child vs no child thing, it’s a not putting people in needless danger thing.

    > Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times.

    Yes, people trump animals. I hope you don’t mean it this way, but you make it sound as if the parents should get rid of the kids and keep the dog.

  • G*3

    You are of course entitled to make your own decision about whether to have kids. That said, you make it sound as though there is a conspiracy to persecute those who choose to “childfree,” and you are valiantly standing up to it. Society encourages people to have children both because it makes for a more stable society and because all life, including people, is programmed to make more of itself.

    > In some businesses, workers who perform the same tasks as their co-workers are often given pay raises when they become pregnant.

    This is really about socialism vs pure capitalism. As you said yourself, children are expensive. In a purely capitalist system, you pay the job. In a less rigid system the needs of the person filling job may be taken into account.

    > Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot.

    Also economics. The only place I’ve seen this is stores that cater to parents. Having special parking encourages people to shop there.

  • http://selfavoiding.blogspot.com/ Mordy

    Some of the comments here are truly saddening – such closed-mindness!

    To those of you who feel Tova touched something deep inside you, some little voice that’s been telling you that maybe bringing children into this world is not for you, I suggest you read Nobody’s Mother http://amzn.to/8ZbRF4 (or Nobody’s Father http://amzn.to/9kKkRCfor the men out there).

    To those of you who say Tova is being selfish I have a challenge for you: name one non-selfish (and non-religious) reason to bring children into this world. One.

    And lastly, having children without even considering the possibility of not having children, not even giving any thought to it, cannot be better than considering and rejecting it.

    • Guest 2

      >To those of you who feel Tova touched something deep inside you, some little voice that’s been telling you that maybe bringing children into this world is not for you,

      I think its rather ironical that the “parents” are being called sheep, yet the other side is using this same phycological BS over and over again. Its like you all graduated from the same sociology class. Is this really all you have? Some arm chair psychological analysis?

      >To those of you who say Tova is being selfish I have a challenge for you: name one non-selfish (and non-religious) reason to bring children into this world. One.

      Simple. Its what we do. A sort of “understood’ duty we have. Its the knowledge that constructing of a good family that is at the core of a healthy society. So its not about the ME, but about the WE. As an aside, even if you can say it is selfish to HAVE kids, the selfishness ends there, since everything afterward is about them.

      • Law

        “Simple. Its what we do. A sort of “understood’ duty we have.”

        And you wonder why you’re thought of as a sheep? This is the mindless “reasoning” of the majority, who have children. If it walks like a duck…

        “Its the knowledge that constructing of a good family that is at the core of a healthy society. So its not about the ME, but about the WE. As an aside, even if you can say it is selfish to HAVE kids, the selfishness ends there, since everything afterward is about them.”

        Um, how is the fact that you are obsessed with your own children good for “WE” as a healthy society? Seems to me that you don’t care one whit about the rest of society now that you’ve crapped out a kid, who, incidentally, will probably grow up to be a spoiled rotten brat since it’s parents fawn over it to the exclusion of everything else in the world. “Everything is about them?” Seriously? And this is supposed to be good for society?

        Why is it that you think gracing the rest of the world with your brat is doing the world a favor or something? How utterly conceited.

        • Guest 2

          Law,

          LOL

          You’re pretty hilarious. Brat? Crap? Seriously. Some of us here should be very grateful you have no kids. Probably should stay away from children as well.

          • Law

            Wow, I am wounded to the core. LOL!

            And yes, I avoid children since for the most part they are undisciplined, smelly, screaming hellions being raised by inconsiderate, self-absorbed simpletons who can’t be arsed to do any real parenting.

  • Jurgen

    In my petty way, I wish some of these commentors parents chose to be childfree. But now I am lowering myself to that level, if only I could have resisted.

  • Mike

    What would be worse? A person who does not want kids to not have kids, thus living and enjoying their life the way they want to? Or a person who does not want kids to have a child and not be willing or able to give it the love and attention it needs to be raised properly? I’m not saying Tova would willfully neglect a child, but some people just aren’t cut out to be parents. That doesn’t make them evil, or stupid, etc. It’s a personal choice between them and their spouse. If you want to have a kid, great! Go for it! Best of luck to you! If not, then great! Don’t go for it! Best of luck to you!

    The truly selfish individuals in this argument are the ones who assume that their way of thinking must be correct, and everyone else should adjust their views accordingly, or else they are stupid, hateful, selfish, and evil.

    • Guest 2

      >The truly selfish individuals in this argument are the ones who assume that their way of thinking must be correct, and everyone else should adjust their views accordingly, or else they are stupid, hateful, selfish, and evil.

      No. Tova wrote a post with comments. She gave certain reasoning with her post, expecting comments to tackle those reasons. And that is what people did.

      Im sorry, but EVERYONE thinks their way of thinking is correct. Either that or you are simply not human. A person that is 100% tolerant of everything out there and every opinion is simply a person with no conviction.

      I can assure you that if someone posted an article on religion, people here (that I am guessing are not religious) would jump all over that and assume their way of thinking is correct and the religious are simply primitive, sexist, etc etc etc etc.

      OBVIOUSLY a person that doesn’t want kids, should not have them. But if you open your mouth out to your reasoning, especially on a public blog, expect to be called out on it. All Tova could have said, is that she simply does not want to have kids. Period..

    • Jurgen

      Of course my way of thinking is correct, I don’t understand why you don’t see that.

    • Guest 2

      >The truly selfish individuals in this argument are the ones who assume that their way of thinking must be correct, and everyone else should adjust their views accordingly, or else they are stupid, hateful, selfish, and evil.

      No. Tova wrote a post with comments. She gave certain reasoning with her post, expecting comments to tackle those reasons. And that is what people did.

      Im sorry, but EVERYONE thinks their way of thinking is correct. Either that or you are simply not human. A person that is 100% tolerant of everything out there and every opinion is simply a person with no conviction.

      I can assure you that if someone posted an article on religion, people here (that I am guessing are not religious) would jump all over that and assume their way of thinking is correct and the religious are simply primitive, sexist, etc etc etc etc.

      OBVIOUSLY a person that doesn’t want kids, should not have them. But if you open your mouth out to your reasoning, especially on a public blog, expect to be called out on it. All Tova could have said, is that she simply does not want to have kids. Period.

    • Guest 2

      .>The truly selfish individuals in this argument are the ones who assume that their way of thinking must be correct, and everyone else should adjust their views accordingly, or else they are stupid, hateful, selfish, and evil.

      No. Tova wrote a post with comments. She gave certain reasoning with her post, expecting comments to tackle those reasons. And that is what people did.

      Im sorry, but EVERYONE thinks their way of thinking is correct. Either that or you are simply not human. A person that is 100% tolerant of everything out there and every opinion is simply a person with no conviction.

      I can assure you that if someone posted an article on religion, people here (that I am guessing are not religious) would jump all over that and assume their way of thinking is correct and the religious are simply primitive, sexist, etc etc etc etc.

      OBVIOUSLY a person that doesn’t want kids, should not have them. But if you open your mouth out to your reasoning, especially on a public blog, expect to be called out on it. All Tova could have said, is that she simply does not want to have kids. Period.

  • Guest 2

    >The truly selfish individuals in this argument are the ones who assume that their way of thinking must be correct, and everyone else should adjust their views accordingly, or else they are stupid, hateful, selfish, and evil.

    No. Tova wrote a post with comments. She gave certain reasoning with her post, expecting comments to tackle those reasons. And that is what people did.

    Im sorry, but EVERYONE thinks their way of thinking is correct. Either that or you are simply not human. A person that is 100% tolerant of everything out there and every opinion is simply a person with no conviction.

    I can assure you that if someone posted an article on religion, people here (that I am guessing are not religious) would jump all over that and assume their way of thinking is correct and the religious are simply primitive, sexist, etc etc etc etc.

    OBVIOUSLY a person that doesn’t want kids, should not have them. But if you open your mouth out to your reasoning, especially on a public blog, expect to be called out on it. All Tova could have said, is that she simply does not want to have kids. Period.

    • JayJay

      Those are HER reasons. Whether you agree with them or not has nothing to do with HER life. She was trying to say WHY she didn’t want kids because people often ask why. Why do you have a problem with her stating her opinions?

      • Guest 2

        See, there goes a commentator doing the ol switch-a-roo. Instead of discussing the issue, now you force me to be defensive, or prove a negative.

        Lets state this once and FOR ALL.

        NOBODY has a problem with her stating her opinion. Get it? Lets say this again, Nobody has a problem with her stating her opinion. But if she decides to share her opinions with the public, then she agrees to have her opinions commented on, by the public she chose to share it with. And though she has the RIGHT to do whatever she wants, the REASONING (which she gave out of her own free will, nobody arm twisted her) for her decisions is what is being discussed, which is the point of this post.

        • JayJayJay

          SOMEBODY wrote this: “But if you open your mouth out to your reasoning, especially on a public blog, expect to be called out on it. All Tova could have said, is that she simply does not want to have kids. Period.”

          Sorry, but to me it sounded like you had a problem with her going into detail about being childfree. (The “Period.” comment kind of got me.) OF COURSE, she couldn’t just say “I’m childfree,” because that wouldn’t even be an article. People can discuss her reasonings, but they need to keep in mind that her reasonings are only relevant to her and her alone and people need to stop being so rude just because they disagree with her reasonings. Sorry about putting you on the defensive end, but that is what I got out of your post the first time I read it.

          • JayJay

            Forgot to add that Tova wasn’t expecting people to “tackle” the reasons. Discuss the reasons? Yes. But not “tackle” them because they are not things to be “tackled.” Looking at some of your posts, you seem to be justifying people calling Tova names. None of that is necessary when having a proper discussion.

    • Law

      “Im sorry, but EVERYONE thinks their way of thinking is correct. ”

      Yes, but there are people like Tova whose way of thinking is what is best FOR THEM, and people like you, who think your way of thinking is best for everyone else.

  • Andre Breton

    From the behavior of the “parents” in these comments, they are the best argument for never having kids. What a bunch of lunatic fanatics trying to convince themselves that they did not make a huge mistake!

    “The hatred and cruelty which have their source in selfishness are ineffectual things compared with the venom and ruthlessness born of selflessness. ” – Eric Hoffer, The True Believer

    • Guest 2

      Andre

      Typical smearing and nice way to shift the ENTIRE post, that WE are somehow trying to convince ourselves that we didn’t make a mistake. Egads, he found out our secret fellow parents. We should stop right now “convincing” Tova

      • JayJay

        Guest 2, perhaps Andre was only talking about the parents who were being rude to Tova (notice the “parents”). That is what I got out of the post.

    • Alex

      Why is it only the parents who you view as trying to convince themselves that they didnt make a mistake, what about the loners?
      “Quoting random quotes to back up your silly comment doesnt make you sound any more intelligent.” – Alex

  • Guest 2

    Sorry for doing it this way, but the reply is giving me problems

    Mike said:

    >The truly selfish individuals in this argument are the ones who assume that their way of thinking must be correct, and everyone else should adjust their views accordingly, or else they are stupid, hateful, selfish, and evil.<

    No. Tova wrote a post with comments. She gave certain reasoning with her post, expecting comments to tackle those reasons. And that is what people did.

    Im sorry, but EVERYONE thinks their way of thinking is correct. Either that or you are simply not human. A person that is 100% tolerant of everything out there and every opinion is simply a person with no conviction.

    I can assure you that if someone posted an article on religion, people here (that I am guessing are not religious) would jump all over that and assume their way of thinking is correct and the religious are simply primitive, sexist, etc etc etc etc.

    OBVIOUSLY a person that doesn't want kids, should not have them. But if you open your mouth out to your reasoning, especially on a public blog, expect to be called out on it. All Tova could have said, is that she simply does not want to have kids. Period.

    • Bob

      Well said , guest 2 i loved your comments. well said

  • Andre Breton

    “It is not love of self but hatred of self which is at the root of the troubles that afflict our world.” -Eric Hoffer

  • Mike

    “No. Tova wrote a post with comments. She gave certain reasoning with her post, expecting comments to tackle those reasons. And that is what people did.”

    I absolutely agree, since Tova put her opinion forward on a public blog, people are free to put their opinions on her opinion forward. It comes with the territory. That’s not even an issue here.

    “Im sorry, but EVERYONE thinks their way of thinking is correct. Either that or you are simply not human. A person that is 100% tolerant of everything out there and every opinion is simply a person with no conviction.”

    I disagree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but people must always be willing to accept and evaluate differing points of view and be willing to alter their own opinions in the face of conflicting evidence. To change your mind makes you not human? Opinions are not set in stone. Indeed, it would be ignorant at best to believe your opinion is the truth with no debate allowed. This is not the same thing as saying every opinion must be tolerated and considered equally valid. On the contrary, each opinion should be considered, evaluated, and judged accordingly.

    “I can assure you that if someone posted an article on religion, people here (that I am guessing are not religious) would jump all over that and assume their way of thinking is correct and the religious are simply primitive, sexist, etc etc etc etc.”

    No doubt. Religion and baseball are two very contentious topics, which is why you should always avoid them at dinner conversations. But again, if someone comes into an argument and putting forth their opinion as indisputable fact, then that proves my original point that the arguments of those people aren’t even worth listening to, since nothing will affect their bias. If people are convinced that their opinion is the absolute truth, and that people should accept that or else they are stupid, hateful, or what have you, then those are the selfish and self-absorbed members of the discussion.

    “OBVIOUSLY a person that doesn’t want kids, should not have them.”
    I agree, but based on some of the comments, there are apparently some people who do not. Or more accurately, there are some who feel that there is something inherently wrong with anyone who does not want to have children.

    “But if you open your mouth out to your reasoning, especially on a public blog, expect to be called out on it. All Tova could have said, is that she simply does not want to have kids. Period.”
    Like I said, that’s not the issue here. Civil discussion should be expected and, indeed, encouraged, on public forums such as this. But let’s face it – even if the post had consisted only of Tova saying “I do not want to have children,” the responses would have been largely the same. People would still have agreed and disagreed with her. Some people would still attack and insult her for her opinion, while others would still attack and insult them for attacking her.

  • Another Frummy in the OP

    Tova comes from a family with a history of severe mental illness. This decision to not have children is a responsible thing for her to do. It wouldn’t be right to pass the chance of having the same problems to her children.

  • Anonymous

    “Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die.”
    Schools are supposed to be child-centric you know. I don’t see how that would effect the childless who don’t have kids attending the school. Unless you feel you’re robbed of your right to go to a school to eat nuts in front of other peoples’ kids.

    The best reason this girls shouldn’t have kids is she sounds way too young. To each their own though. Who really cares what a stranger on the internet wants or doesn’t want when she grows up??

  • Hoping to have kids one day

    I see everything has his/her opinion to make. This topic did set a conflagration. Yes I agree people should make responsible choices and not do things that are beyond our capability. I understand the challenges of raising children and how difficult it is. No offense to Tova and Michael, but I bet you guys were no picnic either. Just ask your parents. You weren’t programed to be perfect innocent little angles. None of us were. Michael, what do you personally have against children? I know you pledged to remain childless but what gives you the right to lecture people about family planning? If you are concerned about population control, why not direct your contempt towards those who are living in the US illegally instead? Don’t go about ridiculing people for wanting to share their lives with someone. Besides most contraceptives are not 100% foolproof. What would you do if you or your wife accidently became pregnant? Would you run to the nearest planned parenthood clinic or try to make the best of the situation? I am recently married. I am thankful to have a loving husband who cares about me. We mutually hope to have children one day at the right time. Due to the circumstances we are in, children have to take a backseat for now. Plus we are newlyweds and getting knocked up on our wedding night was not part of our agenda. We want to have a year or 2 for ourselves before we start our journey of family planning. I prefer to take things one step at a time. There are ramifications for one’s decision. What if your spouse who initially agreed not to have children decided one day that he/she wants to be a parent? What would you do in this situation? What people decide to do with their lives is their own choice. I don’t know how Orthodox Michael and Tova considers themselves to be but according to Jewish Law we are commanded to marry and have children. For those who don’t wish to undertake the responsibilities and challenges of parenthood should not get married at all. Its as simple as that.

    • JayJay

      We didn’t ask our parents to have us. Our parents having us has no weight on the choices we make. We have our own lives to live. And if someone dislikes kids, that is just how they feel. It’s not something they can control. I worry more about the people who actually want to harm children because they are the real threat.

      And marriage is about love. Should infertile couples not get married? Should people who find out that they are infertile get divorced? That makes no sense. I’m sure your God wants people to follow their hearts and not just mindlessly do things like what you are saying. (i.e. marriage = children, no matter how fit the parents are.) It’s as simple as that.

      And to answer your question about childfree people, they are not going to have children even if the partner changes his or her mind. (Yes, that would mean leaving them possibly.) While it is good to take one step at a time, it is good to know what you want out of life.

      And it is possible to go a lifetime without impregnating someone or getting someone pregnant. And yes, abortions are “making the best of a situation” for some people. I personally don’t think it is right to bring unwanted children into world. And since pregnancy can be a life or death situation, I do believe the mother has the right to decide whether she wants to take that risk.

      I am happy that you have found someone you love and that you are actually planning a family out instead of mindless doing it like some people do.

      • Hoping to have kids one day

        Thanks for your comments.

        I just want to clarify a few facts. According to Jewish Law, we are required to get married with the purpose of procreation. It doesn’t mean you have to have a baby 9 months after your wedding ( although some people may interpret that as such ). I chose to wait a while and some people castigated me for that. I have a lot to juggle and having a baby right now would complicate matters even more. Anyone who considers themselves Orthodox would understand that. And yes, if you don’t want to have children or to commit to your partner, then don’t get married. Suffering with infertility is a different ball park. They are not comparable to people who are childless by choice. They should have a happy and a fulfilling marriage regardless of their situation. Being infertile has the tendency to create marital tension for the record. A couple is allowed to divorce if they are unable to conceive after 10 years. If they decide to stay with each other, G-d bless them.
        I agree there should be allowances for abortion if the woman’s pregnancy is proven detrimental to her life or health ( rape would be a legitimate reason too ). Otherwise she should find a way to cope with it. She can always put her child up for adoption if she chooses to. According to Jewish Law, a woman cannot terminate her pregnancy 40 days after conception. Before then, she can abort at her will with her husband’s consent.

        From a not religious perspective, you are right. Some people are not cut out for parenthood and shouldn’t be mislead into thinking that they are. If you don’t want to have kids, then use contraceptives. If you can’t afford contraceptives, then don’t have sex. Biologically, you don’t need to be married in order to have kids or sex. There are unmarried couples living together who are happy with their lives. People who prefer to remain child free should consider that.

  • Hoping to have kids one day
  • Vitepci

    I’m speachless. The level of stupidity these placenta-brained breeders are exhibiting here is staggering. And to think they’ve reproduced!

    • Anonymous

      I’ll take the stupidity of the placenta-brained over the hatred of the baby-haters any day. (See Michael and Zatoth’s comments for example of pure contempt for people who have made decisions different than their own)

      • Zatoth

        pure contempt for the double standards, you mean. it’s okie dokie for everybody who disagrees to level contemptuous attacks on Tova, but gods forbid you say anything agreeing with her.

        • Anonymous

          Get over yourself, tova started this. Her post was very condescending.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think this is evil… not at all. I may not agree with it… I don’t… I have two children that I adore, and even though I enjoy going out, I enjoy staying home and loving them even more. But that’s me. Maybe the reasons for not wanting them is selfish, but lke Tova said, it’s her perogative to be selfish. And not wanting children is not evil. Having children when you don’t honestly want them and then neglecting or abusing them is evil…. this is not.

  • Tova Rocks

    As someone who has been through the foster care system, I have seen with my own two eyes what bad parenting leads to, and why certain people just shouldn’t have children. People who make the conscious decision to not pro-create because they want to live the good life of money and comfort are not selfish. They are aware they’d make bad parents because they just don’t feel the drive to do it. Let them continue on their mission of saving countless years of suffering and damage to potential offspring. Forget the haters.

    Neglect is an ugly thing, and I have experienced it myself. Because of it I have a stronger desire to adopt children than to birth my own.

  • http://hannahbanana.pnn.com/13235-the-front-page HannahBanana

    You know what? There are so many people on this planet, then when someone decides not to have kids, I actually think it’s a pretty good thing. Why SHOULD someone have kids if they don’t want them? And why should they be judged for it? I know several woman who have decided to put themselves first, and I really don’t see any issue with it. Why not?! In today’s society, you can choose to travel around the world, you can go to fantastic places, spend the money on yourself and enjoy YOUR life, rather than living for another.

    I’m choosing to have kids… but I certainly don’t blame someone else for making a DIFFERENT choice, and I can absolutely see the logic behind it. I applaud you, Tova, for standing by what you want in the face of a society that has different expectations of you.

    I WILL say, however, that it’s a shame that someone as articulate as you are will not have kids while folks who are ignorant and self-righteous seem to breed like it’s their job.

  • Yevreyechka

    G-d set up human life to be condusive for growth. At birth, we are ultimate takers, but as we mature, we are supposed to develop into ultimate givers. First, our thought and responsibility revolve around ourselves exclusively, and gradually we are meant to move away from that, and learn to think of other people, and balance many responsibilities. For this, we have syblings, classmates, then husbands, then kids. We all have free choice, if a person wants to stay selfish, and never take a responsibility for another he has a right to do so. But that just means that for whatever reason, there was a problem in his pshycological/emotional development, and he never grew up.

    AND some of the things in Tova’s post are extremely disgusting, and uncalled for. This girl is not just childfree, she is unti-child.
    “Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of WADDLING AROUND a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot. Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for FEAR THAT LITTLE JOHNNY WILL DIE. PARENTS PUT DOWN PETS AFTER THEY BITE in self defence from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times. ”

    I think Tova is still young, and there are a lot of things that happened, and are happening in her life that are very confusing (I read her blog a bit). I am pretty sure, she will change her mind on this issue sooner or later.

    • No Kids 4 Me

      What a load of sanctimonious crap! Someone does not need children to be a giving, loving, responsible, unselfish human being. Your views are so narrow minded, your head must hurt!

      • Anonymous

        Tova clearly states that she does not want to have kids because they will infringe on her freedome, and money. She thinks she’s gonna live it up. That is why most people choose not to have kids. They might take on other responsibilities and chessed projects, but nothing can compare to the lifelong, multifaceted commitment of having a child. They give, but not on the level a parent gives to a child.

        • JayJay

          You don’t know anything about why most people choose not to have kids so don’t pretend that you do. That’s called lying. MOST people who choose not to have kids do so because they don’t want them and know it would be unfair to the child for it to have a parent who doesn’t want it. Tova even mentioned that but you only noticed the bit about money and freedom (what is wrong with these two things exactly?) because of the stereotypes you have about CF people.

          And way to make yourself feel better about your life by acting like parents somehow “give” more than non-parents, by practically putting down non-parents to raise yourself up.

          I am going to be a social worker, I am going to be a mentor, I am going to rescue animals, I am going to be a kickass aunt (if my bro has kids), and I am going to save up money so my parents can get into an awesome retirement home. If you think that I am somehow on a lower level than you because I won’t be a parent, I feel sorry for you and your narrow little world.

          Giving back to the world is giving back to the world, end of story. I don’t want to have a lifelong paranoid/stressful/worrisome/heartbreaking commitment to a child I created, who did not ask to be brought into the world and may not like it here. If I wanted to do all of that, I would ADOPT, which is actually giving back to the world.

          Making a virtual clone of yourself because you think you can’t have a meaningful life without having kids is not giving back.

        • JayJay

          You don’t know anything about why most people choose not to have kids so don’t pretend that you do. That’s called lying. MOST people who choose not to have kids do so because they don’t want them and know it would be unfair to the child for it to have a parent who doesn’t want it. Tova even mentioned that but you only noticed the bit about money and freedom (what is wrong with these two things exactly?) because of the stereotypes you have about CF people.

          And way to make yourself feel better about your life by acting like parents somehow “give” more than non-parents, by practically putting down non-parents to raise yourself up.

          I am going to be a social worker, I am going to be a mentor, I am going to rescue animals, I am going to be a kickass aunt (if my bro has kids), and I am going to save up money so my parents can get into an awesome retirement home. If you think that I am somehow on a lower level than you because I won’t be a parent, I feel sorry for you and your narrow little world.

          Giving back to the world is giving back to the world, end of story. I don’t want to have a lifelong paranoid/stressful/worrisome/heartbreaking commitment to a child I created, who did not ask to be brought into the world and may not like it here. If I wanted to do all of that, I would ADOPT, which is actually giving back to the world.

          Making a virtual clone of yourself because you think you can’t have a meaningful life without having kids (and I’m not talking about all parents; I’m talking about you) is not giving back.

          • Yevreyechka

            - I read what Tovah wrote, she wrote I don;t want kids because… I don’t wanna share nothing (in short).
            – If u think you are not qualified to be a parent, then you agree that you are irresponsible, and immature, and yea, you should not brinig a kid into this world
            – Adopting, is the same kind of commitment as giving birth. That is having kids.
            -Kids are not virtual clones of their parents. Are you a virtual clone of your parents?
            -It’s great that you want to do all those things, like have a job, help your parents, be an aunt, etc. People with kids do all that too, plus raise kids

        • Zatoth

          “They give, but not on the level a parent gives to a child.”

          That is correct-we will never give to a child what a parent can-this guy I know who smokes pot and boozes rather than save for his children’s college funds, my aunt who only shows up on her daughter’s doorstep when she wants money or a place to stay and then gets vicious when she does not get it. my cousin who stole the estate of his grandfather, thus assuring not even his own children will benefit from having anything of their ancestors-amd in a beautiful show of generosity, robbed me, my sister and my two other cousins of ever having any heirlooms. i’m glad being a parent makes better people.

          • Yevreyechka

            Not every parent lives up to their responsibilitys. But a normal, healthy person, will benefit from having kids.

          • Anonymous

            So thats why you hate kids so much. i’ll bet most of you parent-haters fell the same way about your parents.

        • Yochanan

          Childfree people write about parents having no lives and that 20 years of their lives have gone down the drain. To me, it seems that many, if not most, parents live fulfilling lives in their roles as moms and dads.

      • Anonymous

        Tova clearly states that she doesn’t want to have kids because they will infringe on her freedome and her capital. She thinks she’s gonna live it up. That is why most people choose to remain childless. They might have other responsibilities, and chessed projects, but nothing compares to the lifelong, multifaceted commitment of raising a child. Their giving is not on the level of a parent giving to a child.

  • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

    I think we can all agree that having a child is burden.
    It might be a burden you accept willingly (though not always), but it’s still a burden.
    If you, as a parent, could raise a child without ever having to wake up in the middle of the night to change its diaper or feed it or check that its still breathing or any other myriad of reasons mothers (and fathers) have altered sleep schedules for the first few years after a child is born, wouldn’t you take it? I understand you want to raise a child and teach it right from wrong, but do you really want the burden of losing sleep?
    That’s why I think we can all agree that having a child is a burden.

    I think we can all agree that caring for an elderly, infirm parent is also a burden. We may love our mom or dad, but taking care of a parent who can’t get out of bed, or who suffers from Alzheimers, or who any number of different ailments, physically and emotionally tax a child. You may be a great child and you care out of love, but we can agree it’s a burden.

    In these comments, one basic argument for having a child is so it can care for you when you are old.

    To me it sounds like this argument says accept a burden on yourself (for at least 18 years) so the last 18 years of your life you can be a burden on your child.

    It’s not as equal as I described it. After all, when you took on the burden you did so with at least a bit of choice. You could have abstained. You could have used protection. You could have had an abortion. You choose to have a burden.
    Your child, on the other hand, made no such choice.
    How can you justify such selfish behavior?

    I agree the end of your life is going to suck if you don’t have a child. I contend it will suck even if you do have a child. So why burden someone who you will eventually love?

    • Guest 2

      Actually, I disagree.

      Children are not a burden. That is the crux of the disagreement. It’s a pleasure. Its hard. Very hard. But everything is worth while on this planet is always difficult. At least for me, I don’t look at raising children with the same logic I would in choosing a career (ie, will I lose sleep? will I have enough free time? etc etc etc) It is on class on its own.

      So you lose some sleep in the beginning. We’ll deal with it.

      • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

        Actually, you don’t disagree.
        You might find pleasure in raising a child. That’s cool. But, as you said, it’s hard. Very hard. We are using different words to describe the same thing.
        You sound like you might be a parent. So we can agree that it’s not just losing sleep in the beginning. I gave sleep as a simple example. It’s harder as they grow up, isn’t it?

        I agree with you about a career. That’s why so many dream of winning the lottery and quitting their job. Your work might be a necessary burden, but we can be honest and describe it as it is.

        • Guest 2

          I think language is important. I would never describe it as a burden. Burden connotes not just hardship, but that of a misfortunate journey ahead of you. Earning a PHD is also very hard, but the ‘hard’ is what makes it worthwhile. It’s work, but I don’t know anyone that would describe it as a burden on their shoulders.

          Yes I am a parent and at each stage there a new hardships. But its hardships that I deal with. I grow with the kids.

          • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

            1. Burden has nothing to do with a journey, but if you want to view it that way, I’m fine with using the word “hardship”. It doesn’t change my point at all.

            2. Since we agree that parenting is a hardship at each stage, we can also agree that advice of “So you lose some sleep in the beginning. We’ll deal with it.” is not fair. In fact, you’ll lose sleep for a lot longer than just the beginning. And you’ll most likely lose other things in the course of rearing your “young”.

            3. You still haven’t addressed my main point about the burden you are foisting on your child.

            • Anonymous

              >We’ll deal with it.” is not fair. In fact, you’ll lose sleep for a lot longer than just the beginning. And you’ll most likely lose other things in the course of rearing your “young”.

              Why isn’t it fair? Is it fair that thousands of students in grad school lose sleep? What about lawyers that have to work 80 hour weeks? I look at the larger over all fresco of life and that losing some sleep in the beginning, getting stressed etc etc is all part of something much grander at store. Do I lose some other things? Sure. I lose the ability to do whatever I want, when ever I want. But even that is not true all the time since I will have other responsibilities too. At a certain point, I decide to leave the mentality of what will be good for me only, and move on to the mentality of brining in life (or adopting) and making them, (and yes, even my spouse) primary.

              What I lose, doesn’t reach the caliber of what I gain.

              >You still haven’t addressed my main point about the burden you are foisting on your child.

              How am I supposed to answer that? I mean, you either feel the naturally inclination to reproduce and that it is good to bring life into this world or you don’t. Why is that something that needs defending all of a sudden when this is something that humanity does and always has done?

              Hardship is not a bad thing. If life was all easy, it would not be worth living. Hardship is what strengthens us.

              • Guest 2

                Sorry, that Anonymous was me

              • Law

                “Is it fair that thousands of students in grad school lose sleep? What about lawyers that have to work 80 hour weeks? ”

                It is if that is what they want to do with their lives. No one says anything to anyone for NOT choosing to be a grad student or a lawyer. Do you see the distinction?

                “Why is that something that needs defending all of a sudden when this is something that humanity does and always has done?”

                Because most people don’t give it an iota of thought when it is a decision that deserves much soul-searching considering the sheer number of selfish people who reproduce like animals without being able to raise their children properly to become mentally and emotionally balanced, contributing members of society. Having kids is not about fulfilling some fantasy wish or base biological urge. The world is stuffed to the gills with the sick, the starving, the mentally insane. Ask yourself what you think having a child contributes to this world. Honestly. Statistically speaking, what do you think your child will grow up to add to this world? Do you REALLY think your kid is going to be the next recipient of the Nobel Peace prize? Because chances are it will either end up a medocre nobody, reproducing more mediocre nobodies, sucking up resources somewhere in Suburbia USA, or in prison.

                “Hardship is not a bad thing.”

                That depends. One persons’ garden is another’s Hanoi Hilton. What’s good for you may not be good for someone else. Please pass it on.

              • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

                Aside from what Law said…

                When I said “fair” i meant you were unfairly representing the difficulty involved. When someone goes to grad school or becomes a lawyer, they (hopefully) know that they need to devote a lot of time and energy to be successful. If lawyers were told, it’s not a hardship to practice law because it’s only a year or two of broken sleep, it would be an unfair characterization.

                When you say hardships are good, would you want your children to have unnecessary hardships?

                • Guest 2

                  Hey Drum,

                  I don’t think I am unfairly represting the difficulties. I mean, I have two kids, I know what its taking. What I am saying is that those things that can be hard (ie, loss of sleep in the begining, and yes, beginning. My kids are 4 and 6 and sleep the whole night or loss of being able to go out with friends whenever I want) is small price to pay for having children. It is. Call it hardship or call it what you want. Its not easy of course, but nothing worth while is ever easy.

                  >When you say hardships are good, would you want your children to have unnecessary hardships?

                  What do you mean by unnecassary hardship??? Most hardships nowadays are simply not hardship. Sorry, I think many people are simply spoiled by a society that has everything on their finger tips. Would I want them to have a disease? No. Do I want them to be hit by a car? No. But do I want their lives to be totally smooth and easy? No!!!!, because how can you learn and grow as a person if everything comes so easy ?

                  • http://alarbean.wordpress.com DrumIntellect

                    Guest 2,

                    This thread is all ready too long.
                    If you want to discuss it further, you may send me an email.

                  • Law

                    ” is small price to pay for having children. ”

                    You feel that way, and that’s fine, but other people do not feel that way.

                    “Do I want them to be hit by a car? No. But do I want their lives to be totally smooth and easy? No!!!!, because how can you learn and grow as a person”

                    I’d be interested in your analysis of what one learns by going through the following:

                    http://www.momlogic.com/2009/11/my_bits_fell_out_vaginal_prolapse.php

  • yoni k

    hey at least your honest. but the truth is most of your argument is contingent on the money and time issue. if you had a lot of money and could hire babysitters to do all of those annoying poopy changing stuff for you, and watch them while you go away for the weekend, would you have a kid than?

    • Bryde

      I know you are asking Tova but if I may answer.

      Even if I could have a dozen nannies and limitless time—-NO!No,no,no.It isn’t all about that.That may be all our ae reading into the CF choice but that isn’t all of it.

      Frankly,for me,I just don’t see the point in having any kids.Why?Because so many are without homes and unwanted.Why bring more into the world when those need a home,parents and love.Am I that person for them?No,but I can say that honestly.

      I know many CF’s who have seen some ugly sides to life-foster care,horrible family situations,etc.It factors into the choice not to reproduce for many CF’s.No,I am NOT saying that is true in Tova’s case.

      But it isn’t all time and money.If I had limitless time and money I would do things that don’t require children at all-be a student of everything that ever interested me,travel the world,have fun with sports cars,and take care the family that is around me already.

      • Guest 2

        >Why?Because so many are without homes and unwanted.Why bring more into the world when those need a home,parents and love.

        Bryde,

        With all due respect, and I do mean that sincerely, I think that is a load of bullocks. So because other parents may have been jerks, that should be a reason for you not to have your own kids?

        So because some people screwed up their finances and are now homeless I should not strive to buy a home? Obviously, one has nothing to do with the other, as, nothing has to do with the other when many kids are unwanted and you want your own.

        If anything, Tova’s reasons are by far more logical and reflected in reality— as its generally the same reasons everyone gives.

        • Bryde

          My point is that some people prefer adoption because they can still be parents.They take a child (or two or ten) out of a crummy situation (foster care) and give them what they want most-a REAL home.

          That,to me,is pretty altruistic.I am child-free but if I was a woman who wanted children,I would adopt them.And,yeah it IS a valid reason.Not everyone feels the needs to have a kid be genetically connected to them to make a family.

          I’m glad people step up to adopt these children that people who didn’t have the sense to not have kids,cast off for whatever reason.I bet those kids are thankful as well.

          Some people would rather help a child that is already there than create another.It’s a choice.

          • Guest 2

            >My point is that some people prefer adoption because they can still be parents.They take a child (or two or ten) out of a crummy situation (foster care) and give them what they want most-a REAL home.

            Of course. And that is great if you do that. But then Tova’s reasons still apply. 1) personal freedom 2) finances. You can’t escape it.

            >And,yeah it IS a valid reason.Not everyone feels the needs to have a kid be genetically connected to them to make a family.

            If someone said, “I would rather adopt than having biological kids” than that is great. You still have all the responsibilities. But for the vast majority of people that decide to be child free, they do not go out to adopt. Hence, the “child Free” part of their life.

  • David

    It’s interesting to see some people’s reaction when their truth is challenged. They become defensive and very often offensive feeling the need to oppose other opinions. The truth is most rigid people are terrified at the possibility that maybe another opinion is valid.

    • Stan

      My thoughts exactly,
      Tova, you dont want to have kids, ok good for you why do you feel the need to write a post deffending your position.

      • Stan

        # 300!!! Hesh do I win something?

      • JayJay

        She’s not defending her position. She is just sharing her opinions like every other person who writes an article does. Do you accuse other writers of “defending their position”? I think it is quite possible that her article makes you uncomfortable but you don’t realize it.

        • Stan

          we are all defending our positions. thats the point of arguing.
          I do realize the article makes me uncomfortable, she seems to have an intense dislike of children and a resentment of their parents, i think thats what offended most parents here.
          For example:
          “As a Jew and as an American, I live in a “family friendly”, child-promoting and pro-pregnancy society. In some businesses, workers who perform the same tasks as their co-workers are often given pay raises when they become pregnant. Employers might ask childfree workers to work late because they “don’t have a family”. Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot. Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die. Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times. Families with kids get tax credits funded by those who can’t have or don’t want children.”
          (Bob earlier had a good comment poiting out how each comment was silly see comment #57 above)
          or her last bit about “I like good kids. But:…”

  • Karen

    Right on and great article! My husband and I are Child Free and LOVING LIFE!

  • Sam

    Hey all you people with kids…Why don’t you get off the computer and spend time with them instead of arguing here about how great it is to have kids? Also, it is SELFISH to bring more people into the world, do you honestly think we need more people? Sit in traffic and tell me we aren’t over populated. Finally, why should she have a kid if she doesn’t want one? As I’ve said, it’s not as if we need more kids, so yes, there is no NEED for her to do so. She can afford to be “selfish” if that’s what you call having a personal preference that also keeps the planet from dying out any faster.

  • Beth

    So to be an “unselfish” person … I must have children?
    Even though I don’t want them and have no patience.
    Even though I have a VERY bad temper?
    Even though I will probably ignore the babies cries for food and changing in the middle of the night?
    Even though I will more than likely run away and never come back because I can’t stand the smell, sight, or sound of my crying brat another f-ing day without wanting to blow my brains out?
    Even after all the things I have mentioned and even more things I have left unsaid, am I still selfish?
    No. No, you see if I had children, THAT would be selfish.

    • JayJay

      Absolutely.

    • Guest 2

      I think you missed the point that has been repeated already ad-nasuem.

      If you don’t WANT them, OBVIOUSLY DON’T have them. Having kids you DON’T want is BAD.

      What the discussion has been about, specifically the ‘selfish’ factor of it is the reasoning behind not wanting it. 1) Personal Freedom 2) Finances.

      If for example, somone did not want to have kids because…oh, lets say, they were beaten as kids, then that is not a selfish reason. That is based on a horrific childhood experience.

      Lets repeat this for the last time. If you don’t WANT children, please don’t have them. But, do her reasons behind her not wanting kids coming from selfish desires? Yes, and maybe, for you guys, thats not a necessarily bad thing.

      That reason is the thrust of what we have been talking about and what needs to be asked:

      Does Tova’s reasons behind not wanting kids come from selfish desires or not? I say it is, and so do others. This does not mean Tova is a horrible person. May she have a long and healthy life

  • Indi

    In regards to the Childfree or Childless-by-Choice people being“selfish I would like to ask every parent the deep down reason why they have a child. It’s because they WANTED one. WANT not need. You chose to have a child because you WANTED one to fulfill your life, increase your family size, solidify your marriage, appease your God, because all your friends have them…etc. Either way it’s because you WANTED to do it.

    Childfree folks don’t want a child, again for whatever reason…to live their own gift of a life to the fullest, to pursue a career or vocation, because they are self-aware of some personality trait that would prevent them from being an ideal parent…etc. It all boils down to a choice because having a child is not a given, not in our day and age. Throwing down the “selfish” card leads to an impasse. Each side is making a decision based on WANT, not need.

    As for the ever popular “you will change your mind” card…well, it’s always possible. Reiterating what others have said, how old does one have to be to make a valid life decision? I’m 36. I came to the conclusion that I didn’t want kids when I was in my early 20s. My husband became my husband knowing and agreeing to this life plan. Are we old enough to make that decision and for it be valid in your eyes?

    As for who’s going to be looking after us when we are old; the same people who will be looking after you: nursing home workers. Only we won’t be so disappointed when the children we don’t have rarely call, never write and only come to visit a few times per year because they are so busy with their own lives but don’t want to lose any of their inheritance. :)

    You WANT kids? Great, be a great parent. Raise healthy, intelligent, respectful and educated kids who DON’T think the world owes them something because they’re here. Understand that parenting doesn’t make you a better person. The ingredients to be a “good” human being are in everyone whether they choose to become parents or not.

    • Guest 2

      >Either way it’s because you WANTED to do it.

      So what, you want us not to want them? ;)

      But seriously, you are equating the selfishness with WANTING Children to the WANTING of a Maid.

      Wanting a Maid comes from a desire to have someone do your dirty work. Clean up and basically serve your needs.

      Wanting Kids is different. We want to bring people to this world, because, first, thats what we humans do. Naturally. Secondly, as I said above, you want to pass on values to the next generation because you know that is the only way the world can exist. With healthy families (thats the hope) at the core of societies. You are also sum total of along chain of those before you, and to feel some sort of responsibility that your values, culture don’t disappear and hopefully make the world a better place. The selfishness ends there for me wanting kids, because everything after that is about another human being. To put their needs before yours. To teach them to be model characters in a world that is not always good.

      • Law

        “So what, you want us not to want them?”

        Actually it would be really great if people like you stopped overpopulating the planet.

        “We want to bring people to this world, because, first, thats what we humans do. ”

        Yeah, well, so do cockroaches. Aren’t you special?

        “Secondly, as I said above, you want to pass on values to the next generation because you know that is the only way the world can exist. ”

        I see nothing about your so-called values or the values of any of the other embittered parents on here that makes them worthy of being passed on to anyone. Not one single childed person here or their sympathizers proved that having kids is selfless – on the contrary. You all performed a basic biological function that any homeless dog can do and yet you see yourself as Mother Teresa. If you were any more miserable and insecure, it would have to be tattooed on your forehead as a warning to other people.

        As for the childless/childfree, we are an extreme minority. Don’t worry, the human race isn’t going anywhere any time soon, and if it does, it won’t be our fault. It will be the fault of someone who bred the next Kim Jong Il, the guy who presses the button on the Bomb – or the collective powers of those who pollute enough so that there are no longer any resources left.

        “The selfishness ends there for me wanting kids, because everything after that is about another human being. To put their needs before yours. To teach them to be model characters in a world that is not always good.”

        Why did that someone whose needs must be put before your own necessarily be shot out of your crotch? You couldn’t just join Big Brothers and Big Sisters to be a role model?

        Face it, you had kids because you bought the societally-mandated and heavily-pushed LifeScript. You added that to your biological urge to have sex, didn’t have the sense to use protection, and found yourself in the same situation in which any farm animal finds itself, and you justify it by thinking you and yours are somehow special. Which is fine, what makes you so utterly contemptible is that you try to shame other people into following the same thoughtless trail of mediocrity, boredom, and thankless hard work for which there is no tangible reward. You’re like an evangelist pushing his church, trying desperately for more converts, because that is where the money is, you realize you have no product and that it’s a bigger scam than Amway.

        Parents like you and the others on this board are called LOSERS. You’re the type of person who is so mindless and noncreative, and so unhappy about it, that you expect poor Tova here to actually justify her reasoning to you, as if God died and left you in charge. This is how you make yourself feel powerful. Because up until now, you’ve chosen the path of least resistance due to a total and complete lack of power and a total and complete lack of a spine or an original thought. Tova admits to reasoning that really makes perfect sense (shit stinks and last time I checked no one in their right mind likes to be around it, and also last time I checked, motherhood is a really good way for a woman to end up in poverty, good on Tova for wanting to have money so she can take care of herself). These things are perfectly reasonable and you all know it.

        YOU’RE JUST BITTER BECAUSE YOU WERE STUPID.

        • Stan

          “you expect poor Tova here to actually justify her reasoning to you”
          are you high? tova posted her blog on her own, nobody asked her too

          • Law

            That’s what bloggers do. They post their opinions. Unfortunately for Tova, she then received a truckload of self-righteous blather from a bunch of insecure blowhards telling her her reasons for why she feels the way she does aren’t the right reasons. Judgy Wudgy was a bear…

            • Stan

              …and thats what commenters do they comment on opinions they disagree with.
              and when they are offended by a self righteous 20 yr old who announces that she doesnt want kids because she is too selfish (yes there are thousands of good reasons, thats not the issue, she admits her reasons are selfish. and yes she doesnt even need a reason), and that she views parents with contempt (a vibe felt by many readers,). Well she should expect judgement to be passed on her in turn

              • Law

                “…and thats what commenters do they comment on opinions they disagree with.”

                You have every right to go wherever you want and make an ass of yourself in the comments of someone’s post. I don’t suppose that is in dispute. Tova is responsible only for her words, and yours likewise reflect on you. I fail to see your point or that you had one.

                “and when they are offended by a self righteous 20 yr old”

                If she’s just a “self-righteous 20 year old” why are you so offended by her? How can you be so upset towards someone you feel nothing but contempt and condescension? Someone who you think is deluded or too young and naive to have an opinion? What do you care?

                The answer is that she’s right, you didn’t give an iota of thought to your decisions, and you hate the fact that she’s right, that unlike you she thought things through and that she escaped your miserable fate (so far). That’s really the only reason I can come up with – that the logic of the CF makes sense and you can’t effing stand it.

                ” she admits her reasons are selfish. ”

                SO WHAT? You’re even more selfish than she is. Drop it.

                “and yes she doesnt even need a reason), ”

                That too! So what exactly is your malfunction here?

                “and that she views parents with contempt”

                The piece doesn’t say that. She, like other rational people, views BAD parents with contempt. You know, those with a sense of entitlement or those who are ill behaved idiots, etc. The kind who don’t care about anyone else but themselves or their own brats. An attitude obviously displayed by many here, which is why they are offended. I fail to see a single offensive idea in her post – except to those who breed indiscriminately and think the world should worship them for it.

                • Stan

                  I love the topsy turvy world you live in: Those who disagree with Tova obviously secretly agree. Which, if you follow your logic …those who disagree with THEM secretly agree. Republicans are secretly democrat, democrats are secretly republican, no wonder youre so confused.
                  Oh and to make things even more confusing… I dont even have kids (yet), and still think Tova is a condescending simpleton

                  • Law

                    “Those who disagree with Tova obviously secretly agree. ”

                    Uh…no….what I am saying is that those who disagree with Tova are probably completely guilty of every transgression she outlines in her piece. That’s why they’re so upset.

                    Then there are those people who chose to parent without thinking about it, regret their decision, and resent Tova for not ending up with the same fate.

                    • Stan

                      Ah so having children is a transgresion now. Well at any rate I havent yet commited that transgression and still found her post to be condescending, and silly.

        • Guest 2

          Law,

          Lots of typical “progressive” sounding words there, but little substance. Lots of presumptions, ad hominums blah blah blah. And you have the gall to say others have been nasty? I certainly see a pattern here with the people about peoples philosophies and what they think of humans (ie, no differnt than a farm animal). If anything, I can certainly come out of this grateful to knowing some people DON’T. Could be all your ramblings is simply your own justificaitons to make yourself feel better.

          But really, you just spewed so much out of your ass in this last comment making things up without knowing anything about me or other parents. You feel better now? Good.

          • Law

            “And you have the gall to say others have been nasty?”

            To me, nasty is actually thinking you have a say in someone else’s life. That you have the right to use the words “you should” or “you have to” or “your obligations.”

            I’ve lived with that type of control-freak attitude. There are always factions of people who want to control the lives of others, whether that is through physical force or philosophy or guilt. You are one of them. Therefore whatever ire you receive is richly deserved.

            I don’t need to justify my life, I just sure would like it if people like you would quit thinking you get to have a say in it.

            • Guest 2

              You seem to be an emotional reck. Your comment hints at that. Tova wrote reasons, I commented where she was wrong in my opinion. I wrote nothing that she is obligated to do anything. In fact, if you just stop being so over dramatic, and re read MY comments, you will see that I repeatedly said that if Tova (or anyone) does not want children then should not. My particular comment about “duty” was geared to the person that asked WHY should we have children in the first place and to it overall positive nature. That is what I feel and what the majority of people feel. Doesn’t mean we bring in dozens of children to be raised on your taxes either.

              If you think a person like me has fallen hook line & sinker to having kids, well, its a sad commentary to where we have come, that parenthood, and its desires is now equivalent to sipping someone’s kool-aid (as you know what that means). You have no idea what choices goes into this. None whats so ever. If I am a sheep for this, than I have happy to belong to this herd, rather than someone that sees children as brats, and bringing them into this world as no different than mating farm animals.

              Face it, you are not as free as you think. You have everyday obligations as well. You conform to the “free-thinkers” you have decide to conform to. You speak no different than any other anti-religious leftist that believes everyone else has fallen for society’s brainwashing, except for yourself of course. No different. Once again, as author Herman Wouk says in his book: ” The only truly free people are those locked in Asylums.” You conform to your own ideas thinking to yourself you are critical and progressive. But you are not. All you managed to do is attack me with a lot of arm chair psychology whom you don’t even know in a quite a feet to show how much of a free thinker you are and how sheepish we are. I guess to you, every parent out there is just a sheep or a loser. Nothing more. Like I said, attitudes like yours are dangerous to a thriving world as a society bringing in children for the express purpose of letting others take care of them. You are simply the fanatical polar opposite of them.

              I think you misconstrued my comments on where she is wrong to telling her what she HAS to do. Nope. Like I said, you are just emotional. Your comments are not even worth it due to its oozing of emotional nonsense.

              • Law

                “You seem to be an emotional reck.”

                That’s “wreck,” and my emotions are just fine, thanks. I just don’t like you and your ignorant blather. I know, I know, inconceivable since you’re so fricking great and all.

                “Tova wrote reasons, I commented where she was wrong in my opinion.”

                Oh you’re SOOOO innocent. One of the marks of a sociopath is not understanding what affect you have on people. Apparently now you don’t think your words have any real meaning or any real power.

                Fact is, someone who doesn’t want kids and their reasons behind that decision CANNOT be wrong. That is your mistake. You’re still peddling your imaginary wares and desperately trying to convince people to breed. Why, I’ll never understand.

                “I repeatedly said that if Tova (or anyone) does not want children then should not.”

                If you’re so happy with her decision, then why comment here at all?? Fact is, her post makes you feel insecure. Maybe it should.

                “its a sad commentary to where we have come, that parenthood, and its desires is now equivalent to sipping someone’s kool-aid”

                You yourself just got finished talking about “the majority of people” and how they feel, and that it’s “just what you do.” In effect admitting that you had kids because everyone else was, that you were convinced by others to do so. I’m assuming you have religious reasons for having kids – your church told you you have to. You chose to believe it.

                “You have no idea what choices goes into this.”

                Actually I know exactly what goes into it, which is why I have opted out. Duh!

                “If I am a sheep for this, than I have happy to belong to this herd”

                Don’t pretend that you are anything but, that’s all. And if you’re so damn happy, why are you here attacking someone else’s completely different decision? Shouldn’t you be off being happy?

                “You conform to your own ideas”

                Well, yes. Whose else would I conform to? My desire not to have kids or my own politics had nothing to do with anyone else other than I stuck to my position even harder in the face of coercive blatherers like you. I had plenty of people, religious ones, trying to browbeat me into breeding. Not only did it NOT work, it made me see them for the sad, stunted people they really were. (It was only much later when I deconverted and divorced that I found other people like me. I already was the way I was.) I feel contempt for their attitudes. How many weaker lives have they ruined with their emotional abuse and religious manipulation? How many other women have to lose their identities and their choices and their lives in an effort to conform?

                If you want kids, fine. If someone else doesn’t, stop trying to convince them they’re wrong.

                “I guess to you, every parent out there is just a sheep or a loser. ”

                No, just the ones who aggressively try to sell parenthood on me like it’s their job. If parenthood is so fricking great, it would sell itself. If it was so great, you’d be off doing it.

                “Like I said, you are just emotional. ”

                Actually not really, although there is nothing wrong with having emotions, I note your misogynistic attitude against this however. Lots of religious breeding women don’t have emotions anymore, they’re too busy breeding and being kept under a man’s thumb. Have fun with that.

          • Law

            “Lots of presumptions, ad hominums blah blah blah”

            I didn’t ad hom you. Nor did I presume anything, all I did was respond to your own words. You yourself said that having children “is just what people do.” Just like the other people here who mindlessly toe the line their religious leaders draw for them. Plenty of posts here about being religiously obligated to have kids.

            For the record, and this is a fact: These are really, really crappy, selfish, thoughtless reasons to have kids – because you’re supposed to or it’s what everyone else is doing, because your imaginary Gawd wants you to or will condemn you for eternity for failing to breed (nice one, your child is your salvation, what are you going to do next, tie him up and sacrifice him?), how idiotic.

            “ie, no differnt than a farm animal”

            Technically speaking, you aren’t. Cows, horses, pigs, etc give birth all the time, also without thinking about it. I suppose the question is why do you think you’re so special and so different? Or – do you just need to get over yourself? (Thinking your values are so great that they just have to live on isn’t narcissistic, oh no. I bet you think the same about your DNA too. That’s the only thought you gave it – “The world needs another meeee!”)

            “But really, you just spewed so much out of your ass in this last comment making things up without knowing anything about me or other parents.”

            Do your words here not represent you? Because that is all I was responding to. If you were in fact sharing someone ELSE’s opinions, well, that is outright weird.

            • Anonymous

              >I didn’t ad hom you. Nor did I presume anything, all I did was respond to your own words. You yourself said that having children “is just what people do.” Just like the other people here who mindlessly toe the line their religious leaders draw for them. Plenty of posts here about being religiously obligated to have kids.

              Yes, and have you noticed that not one of my posts had anything to do with religious obligation? You don’t see a differnce between people having kids (because thats what we do) vs ___________(fill in a religious ritual)??

              >For the record, and this is a fact: These are really, really crappy, selfish, thoughtless reasons to have kids – because you’re supposed to or it’s what everyone else is doing, because your imaginary Gawd wants you to or will condemn you for eternity for failing to breed (nice one, your child is your salvation, what are you going to do next, tie him up and sacrifice him?), how idiotic.

              And have I given this reason at all? Do Buddishsts not have children? They don’t believe in God.

              Its surprising that we have to defend having children here. Or maybe its not surprising coming from those that don’t believe in God….but then again, I digress.

              >I suppose the question is why do you think you’re so special and so different?

              I guess this is the crux of our differnces in which we can’t fill the gap. I believe there to be something significantly different between man and animals. You don’t. Hence, not having kids is no different than a roach not having children. And what exactly makes you think us breeders don’t THINK before having children??? You think we don’t look at our finances? Whether we are healthy or not? Seeeee, you are only proving my point. You really see us breeders as nothing but cows, roaches or pigs.

              >Do your words here not represent you? Because that is all I was responding to. If you were in fact sharing someone ELSE’s opinions, well, that is outright weird.

              No, you have responded to what you WANT us breeders to sound like. A bunch of mindless sheep. Hence you simply attack a strawman and accuse me of telling Tova what to do. Read my comments again genius

              • Law

                “Yes, and have you noticed that not one of my posts had anything to do with religious obligation?”

                And I quote:
                “It is rather amazing as the schism in values between those that believe and those that don’t.”

                In other words, you had kids because you “believe.” Part of belief is having kids. I’ve seen it before, don’t even try to convince me your views are at all progressive.

                “You don’t see a differnce between people having kids (because thats what we do) vs ___________(fill in a religious ritual)??”

                They’re both piss-poor reasons to have kids, frankly no, I see no difference. Religion is all about coercion so “it’s what we do” is just one of the favorite lines of religionists to convince people to do what they want.

                “And have I given this reason at all? ”

                I doubt you have a decent reason to give, quite honestly.

                “Its surprising that we have to defend having children here. ”

                It’s surprising you think you shouldn’t have to, that people should mindlessly reproduce without giving it a second’s contemplation. Considering the impact your offspring will potentally have on the world that surrounds them, I think parents SHOULD have to answer for their decisions. The rest of us have to deal with the fallout when your experiment goes awry.

                “Or maybe its not surprising coming from those that don’t believe in God….but then again, I digress. ”

                Was that you just now pretending not to have religious reasons for having kids? BAHAHAHA!!

                “I believe there to be something significantly different between man and animals.”

                You can go ahead and believe that but there’s no real evidence for it.

                “You don’t. ”

                Not entirely true, humans have a different sort of intelligence, sometimes this has led them to believe in silly things like Gawd. LOL!

                “Hence, not having kids is no different than a roach not having children. ”

                Actually my exact comparison was that your having kids is no more special than a roach having children since it doesn’t take any particularly special powers to do so. It has happened at last count over six billion times. Something that happens that many times is not a miracle, Mom.

                “And what exactly makes you think us breeders don’t THINK before having children???”

                The extreme vast majority of you don’t.

                “You think we don’t look at our finances? Whether we are healthy or not? ”

                These are not the issues. It’s great if you can afford your kids and that you probably won’t croak before they reach college. Wonderful, I am sure you should be Mom of the Year. The question is, what impact are THEY going to have on the rest of the world? How do I know you aren’t churning out a truckload of emotionally unbalanced carbon copies of Ayatollah Khomeini? How do I know I won’t be paying for your kids’ three hots and a cot later in life? Statistically speaking you have a better chance of producing a little criminal than a little doctor or a lawyer.

                • Guest 2

                  >The rest of us have to deal with the fallout when your experiment goes awry.

                  I was writing something long, but after reading this longer paragraph of yours, I think its a waste talking to you. I think we are done here. You are really are on a fringe even other extremists would rather stay away from. Good day.

                  PS- I know it will shock you, but I had my kids before I even became religious.

                  • Law

                    “I was writing something long, but after reading this longer paragraph of yours, I think its a waste talking to you. ”

                    It’s only a waste talking to me because your arguments are, quite frankly, just as puerile as the next superficial breeders’. I’ve seen them all before, many times.

                    “I think we are done here. ”

                    Well, you are, anyway. Have fun parenting! Please do us all a favor and teach your kids to respect other people’s choices.

                    “You are really are on a fringe even other extremists would rather stay away from. ”

                    Actually, Mom, you’re the extremist here – the one who thinks she has a right to offer a value judgement on someone else’s life decisions – what is and is not “selfish, ” what is and is not inherently good. Very distasteful.

                    “PS- I know it will shock you, but I had my kids before I even became religious.”

                    It doesn’t shock me, you probably converted to whatever religious stripe you are the same way you decided to become a mother. Easily and without much consideration.

              • Guest 2

                >That’s “wreck,” and my emotions are just fine, thanks. I just don’t like you and your ignorant blather. I know, I know, inconceivable since you’re so fricking great and all.

                Anymore drama queen?

                Now, I looked up the term ‘ignorant’ and it says a lacking of knowledge in a subject. Now, for your comment to make any sense, in context, what exactly am I ignorant about??????

                >Oh you’re SOOOO innocent. One of the marks of a sociopath is not understanding what affect you have on people. Apparently now you don’t think your words have any real meaning or any real power.

                So I’m a sociopath (more emotional smears of course). And OF COURSE word have effect. That is the point of discussions no? Who said my words don’t have affect, but don’t accuse me of something I have not done.

                >Fact is, someone who doesn’t want kids and their reasons behind that decision CANNOT be wrong.

                If they don’t want kids, they don’t need to have kids. If they give reasons behind it, its going to be commented on whether to them they are good or bad. Personally, not like the smell of poop is a pretty childish reason not to have kids.

                >That is your mistake. You’re still peddling your imaginary wares and desperately trying to convince people to breed. Why, I’ll never understand.

                What imaginary wares you idiot? And of course I would to try to convince people to breed, no different than you would convince people to go college. You see the obvious value in it. I see the value in breeding. (GASP)

                >If you’re so happy with her decision, then why comment here at all??

                Um, i didn’t say I am happy about it did I? Second, why not ask Tova why bother posting in the first place? Why this need to share? Did she share what she had for dinner as well? She posted, gave reasons, wanted people to comment on her reasons, and we did. Thats it.

                >Fact is, her post makes you feel insecure. Maybe it should.

                Ya, that really makes sense. Seems like you are just interested in “sounding” sophisticated. How can her post make me feel insecure about my kids? That just doesn’t make any sense.

                >You yourself just got finished talking about “the majority of people” and how they feel, and that it’s “just what you do.” In effect admitting that you had kids because everyone else was, that you were convinced by others to do so. I’m assuming you have religious reasons for having kids – your church told you you have to. You chose to believe it.

                No, you are taking things out of context again. The question was, why do people have kids? The response I gave was “because that is what we do” IRRELEVANT if your church, or mosque or synagogue told you to. We would still have kids. Do you really think that one day, my wife and I, sat on the couch and said “gee honey, everyone else is doing it, maybe we should do it too” ? Is that really how you think couples decide to have children?

                >Don’t pretend that you are anything but, that’s all. And if you’re so damn happy, why are you here attacking someone else’s completely different decision? Shouldn’t you be off being happy?

                You think I am a sheep. Trust me, your opinions matter next to nothing given stuff you are saying . And yes, I am happy. So why am I commenting?? Well gee, Tova, a smart blogger decided to post on an important topic. No one forced her to. And I comment to where I see she is wrong. Most my comments have long ceased to be about Tova, and more about discussing some presumptuous things from other bloggers. Let’s be honest. If a blogger posted they don’t want to go to College because of XYZ, you would give your two cents about it. And guess what, there is nothing wrong with that.

                >I had plenty of people, religious ones, trying to browbeat me into breeding. Not only did it NOT work, it made me see them for the sad, stunted people they really were. (It was only much later when I deconverted and divorced that I found other people like me. I already was the way I was.) I feel contempt for their attitudes.

                HA!!! Just what I said. You are simply the fanatic polar opposite of them. In response to their fanaticism, you turned to the other extreme. This happens often. People born into religious homes many times will go other end and people born to highly secular homes will become extreme in other other direction.

                >No, just the ones who aggressively try to sell parenthood on me like it’s their job. If parenthood is so fricking great, it would sell itself. If it was so great, you’d be off doing it.

                LOL. Apparently is IS that great. As another poster said, the vast vast majority of people do have kids, hence it does sell itself pretty well. I at least, have not been aggressive. This is a blog. A blog discussing an important topic. Each side gives their sides and that is what I have been doing. I say where you are wrong, you say where I am wrong. Calling it “aggressive” only means you have nothing to your side.

                And I am doing it you idiot. Me blogging on my off time at work doesn’t mean I am not being a dad.

                >I note your misogynistic attitude against this however. Lots of religious breeding women don’t have emotions anymore, they’re too busy breeding and being kept under a man’s thumb. Have fun with that

                See, proving more of my point. You have no case, so you decide to call names blah blah blah. Mysogynisctic? LOL. And I agree, there are plenty of women that are baby machines and have no say. But guess what, did you know that there are plenty of women that a) AREN’T baby machines; have a few and are very happy b) Some baby machines LOVE being baby machines and find value in it. (GASP). If you are so strong on people making their own choices, you would know that plenty of women enjoy bringing lots and lots of children. If you whole argument was narrowed down to those women without choice, then I would never have disagreed with you. Instead, you chose to be an emotional idiot.

                • Law

                  “If they give reasons behind it, its going to be commented on whether to them they are good or bad.”

                  Which is really my problem with uppity breeders like you – that you think you have the right to slap a “good or bad” label on someone else’s extremely personal life decision which is actually none of your concern.

                  It’s the exact same attitude problem that explains why religious people are always fighting – “who is good” “who is bad” “who is right” etc. That is to say, the kind of controversy created by DRAMA QUEENS.

                  Did it ever occur to you that your value judgments are not only inherently immature but that you really don’t have a moral right to have them?

                  “Personally, not like the smell of poop is a pretty childish reason not to have kids. ”

                  That’s your opinion which is worth what I paid for it. You’re a meddling, judgmental busybody and I cannot for the life of me figure out what your nose is doing in Tova’s vagina. I’m sure she doesn’t want it there. It can’t be comfortable for either one of you.

                  “And of course I would to try to convince people to breed, ”

                  Which is why I have a problem with you. Other women’s uteruses are none of your business. Do you get that?

                  “no different than you would convince people to go college. ”

                  Right, spreading your legs and popping out a kid is of course exactly like working 4 years for a degree. I mean, the similiarity is uncanny!

                  Did you ever accomplish anything else in your life besides squiring your semen in someone’s vagina or is that the pinnacle of your existence?

                  “You see the obvious value in it. I see the value in breeding. (GASP)”

                  Despite evidence to the contrary (which is a typically religious mindset, yawnariffic). That aside, I wonder if it’s possible for you to even see the value in anything else BESIDES breeding.

                  “Um, i didn’t say I am happy about it did I? ”

                  You are obviously not happy about it, I just wonder what gives you the right to have an emotion about her decisions to begin with.

                  “Second, why not ask Tova why bother posting in the first place? ”

                  Probably because she has to constantly deal with people convincing her to breed and she’s tired of it.

                  “Did she share what she had for dinner as well? ”

                  I am sure she would if she had people telling her how selfish she was for not eating what they were eating.

                  “Ya, that really makes sense. Seems like you are just interested in “sounding” sophisticated. How can her post make me feel insecure about my kids? That just doesn’t make any sense. ”

                  Sure it does. If you were so happy with your own life, you wouldn’t feel the need to condemn someone elses’.

                  “Do you really think that one day, my wife and I, sat on the couch and said “gee honey, everyone else is doing it, maybe we should do it too” ?”

                  I’d be surprised if you even thought about it THAT much.

                  “Is that really how you think couples decide to have children?”

                  Some couples come up with reasons that are even more idiotic.

                  “You think I am a sheep. ”

                  I wouldn’t insult the intelligence of a sheep with the comparison.

                  “And I comment to where I see she is wrong. ”

                  She isn’t wrong. Her intensely personal decision ipso facto cannot be wrong. Even you yourself just compared it to whatever meal she is having for dinner or where she is going to college. How can what one is eating for dinner or where one goes to college be “wrong?”

                  “Let’s be honest. If a blogger posted they don’t want to go to College because of XYZ, you would give your two cents about it. ”

                  No, actually, I wouldn’t. That’s the difference between you and me. To me, someone’s choice of college cannot be inherently “wrong” and therefore I am not entitled to an opinion about such a personal decision, even if the only reason they want to attend Party University is because of the fact that it’s a party school. Only opinionated blowhards like you want to have a voice in other people’s lives.

                  “In response to their fanaticism, you turned to the other extreme.”

                  My decisions were not a response to them. My makeup is already inherent. Isn’t that what you religious idiots believe anyway? That Gawd made you that way?

                  “I at least, have not been aggressive. ”

                  Calling someone outright “wrong” is not a passive stance. It is judgmental, narrow-minded, and offensive.

                  “See, proving more of my point. You have no case, so you decide to call names blah blah blah. Mysogynisctic?”

                  Actually since you’ve revealed yourself to be of the male persuasion I’m even less surprised by your accusations of “emotionalism” – the old “women are hysterical” canard thrown around by troglodytes of yesteryear when a woman dares have a say or disagrees with you. I feel deeply sorry for your wife. I really do. Just those little words of yours reveal so much about you – if I were a gambling woman I’d bet money that your wife is one of those “surrendered” wives who can’t so much as fart without your say so. She probably hasn’t had an emotion since she met you.

                  “If you are so strong on people making their own choices, you would know that plenty of women enjoy bringing lots and lots of children. ”

                  And that’s fine. Just stop insisting that it’s an inherently good thing and that everyone else should do it.

      • law1204

        “So what, you want us not to want them?”

        Actually it would be really great if people like you stopped overpopulating the planet.

        “We want to bring people to this world, because, first, thats what we humans do. ”

        Yeah, well, so do cockroaches. Aren’t you special?

        “Secondly, as I said above, you want to pass on values to the next generation because you know that is the only way the world can exist. ”

        I see nothing about your so-called values or the values of any of the other embittered parents on here that makes them worthy of being passed on to anyone. Not one single childed person here or their sympathizers proved that having kids is selfless – on the contrary. You all performed a basic biological function that any homeless dog can do and yet you see yourself as Mother Teresa. If you were any more miserable and insecure, it would have to be tattooed on your forehead as a warning to other people.

        As for the childless/childfree, we are an extreme minority. Don’t worry, the human race isn’t going anywhere any time soon, and if it does, it won’t be our fault. It will be the fault of someone who bred the next Kim Jong Il, the guy who presses the button on the Bomb – or the collective powers of those who pollute enough so that there are no longer any resources left.

        “The selfishness ends there for me wanting kids, because everything after that is about another human being. To put their needs before yours. To teach them to be model characters in a world that is not always good.”

        Why did that someone whose needs must be put before your own necessarily be shot out of your crotch? You couldn’t just join Big Brothers and Big Sisters to be a role model?

        Face it, you had kids because you bought the societally-mandated and heavily-pushed LifeScript or you were suckered by your money-grubbing church business. You added that to your biological urge to have sex, didn’t have the sense to use protection, and found yourself in the same situation in which any farm animal finds itself, and you justify it by thinking you and yours are somehow special. Which is fine, but what makes you so utterly contemptible is that you try to shame other people into following the same thoughtless trail of mediocrity, boredom, and thankless hard work for which there is no tangible reward. MISERY LOVES COMPANY. You’re like an evangelist pushing his church, trying desperately for more converts, because that is where the money is, you realize you have no product and that it’s a bigger scam than Amway.

        Parents like you and the others on this board are called LOSERS. You’re the type of person who is so mindless and noncreative, and so unhappy about it, that you expect poor Tova here to actually justify her reasoning to you, as if God died and left you in charge. This is how you make yourself feel powerful. Because up until now, you’ve chosen the path of least resistance due to a total and complete lack of power and a total and complete lack of a spine or an original thought. Tova admits to reasoning that really makes perfect sense (feces stink and last time I checked no one in their right mind likes to be around it, and also last time I checked, motherhood is a really good way for a woman to end up in poverty, good on Tova for wanting to have money so she can take care of herself instead of expecting someone else to do it or becoming dependent on a man). These things are perfectly reasonable and you all know it. She’s an adult who actually thought about her choices. You all are children who do whatever everyone else is doing.

        You’re bitter because you were stupid – the men because your paycheck is now inexorably tied to a child who will probably grow up to be completely indifferent to you, the women because you sacrificed your individuality and independence and largely depend on your husband to provide for you just like your father did when you were a little girl.

        You are breeder lemmings who do whatever other people tell you you have to do, whether they are other parents, you own parents, or someone in a church. You bought the BS hook, line, and sinker. And to me, that’s effing sad.

  • Dave

    Having kids is selfish.
    Seriously.
    Ask a parent why they had kids.
    The reasons are all about them.

  • Cheryl

    Very well-written and thought out blog. I find it amusing to hear the caterwauling of those who claim “you will regret it” and claim that because you are young you obviously don’t know your own mind and that you will capitulate to the kid-centric world we live in. I’m 50. No kids, never wanted them. And absolutely no regrets. I have had mothers tell me I didn’t miss out on anything by not having kids. I already knew that. Who will take care of me in my old age? Gee, why don’t you go down to your local nursing home and ask some of those people whose kids have dumped them off there so that they won’t be bothered by their old, sick parents? Kids who rarely come to visit, and care about them even less. Yeah, having kids is a guarantee of being “taken care of” all right. It isn’t so much that I dislike kids, it’s the fact that parents nowadays think their kids’ crap doesn’t stink and that everyone is supposed to think they are god’s gift to the world just like they do. Kids don’t learn that the world is a tough place, because ma and pa won’t make them take responsibility for anything, or teach them right from wrong, or how to flush a toilet. The world will soon be populated by adults who think everyone should excuse everything they do because their parents always did. Kids who think all they have to do is whine/cry/stomp their feet and they will get handed everything in life. I’ll be glad to be dead .

    • spidey

      “I’ll be glad to be dead .”

      I’ll also be glad when you’re dead.

      • the super kelev

        that wasn’t very nice.

        • spidey

          She’s a bitter old lady who hasn’t accomplished anything worthwhile in her life and is delusional about her lack of regret. I doubt a soul will miss her withered old ass. She’ll be no loss to the world.

          • the super kelev

            Isn’t the loss of one life compared to loss of the world in Jewish beliefs? (btw I’m not Jewish)
            I’m sure Cheryl has accomplished something in her life, she just hasn’t figured out what yet. So long as she is living, she has some importance to the world and to God. I will miss her if no one else will.

          • Guest 2

            Pretty low spidey. Comments like that are not needed

          • Law

            Whereas, your accomplishments include that which any cockroach can do – screw and reproduce. I assure you the rest of the world is in awe of your superpowers.

  • Jake

    I was blessed with 2 beautiful girls. The first one passed away as an infant and as a result I love my younger daughter fanatically. I am fully committed to her. I’ll change her diapers (yes, as my name suggests I am a dude), I’ll wake up for her when my wife needs rest, and I’ll work hard now so she can one day I can give her my money so she can vomit on a roller coaster. Tova, I respect your choice but you have no idea how different having a child of your own is. I also had the same thoughts [you have now] before I got married. Give it time. There is no way I can express my true feelings on a blog, but almost any parent knows what I mean. Good luck, and all the best!

  • Izzy

    The tone and substance of some of these comments are really disturbing. If you don’t like what Tova has to say, or the fact that Heshy posted it, don’t read the blog. Some of the comments are downright scary. It’s because of these people that I can’t use my full anme when I comment.

    • Anonymous

      If you dont like the comments, dont read the comments. Your better than me btw I dont use any name when I comment

  • Sara

    Who cares what you want? You have a responsibility to humanity to reproduce and continue life in this world, and by the way, its a commandment from the Torah. To write a list of why you want to be ‘childfree’ is like me writing a list of why i dont want to pay taxes.

    • http://hatthief.blogspot.com Meir

      Humanity’ll be just fine (actually, better) if she doesn’t have kids.

      The number of people this planet can support is limited, and there’s evidence to suggest we’re in danger of hitting that number soon or have already (especially at decent standards of living).

    • Law

      It takes a very special brand of nerve to tell a complete stranger what their responsibilities are in terms of how they live their life. I kinda have to wonder if you have even worse control issues towards those who are unfortunate enough to live with you.

  • the fact is

    People are being nasty to the poster because she is attacking their way of life. the post is very negative and she looks down at people who choose to be parents, and assumes them to be drones. Of course she will get attacked, and rightfully so.

  • Yochanan

    Anyone notice the contradiction that Tova and other childfree people make?

    On the one hand, they say how difficult it would be for THEM to have kids (money, time, poop, etc.)

    On the other, they talk about how parents are catered to in our society.

    • Law

      I’d say the same thing about the disabled. I sure wouldn’t choose to be disabled though.

  • Yochanan

    Regarding parking spots for pregnant women who waddle around the mall:

    Ever consider that walking behind some guy’s SUV could be slightly more dangerous than standing in line at Jamba Juice?

  • Conservative apikoris

    Why is it “selfish” to not want to have children? (Personal disclosure: I have children, and I am married to the mother of my children.)

    The common understanding of “selfish” is that a person with that trait wants something only for himself, and doesn’t want to share anything. Yes, an ideologically “child-free” person may not want to share time/effort/wealth with their child. But this child s not a real child, it’s a theoretical abstraction! So what are they being selfish about? They’re not denying anything to anyone else. Nobody is being shortchanged. I didn’t hear the author of this piece say that other people shouldn’t have children. The vehemence of the attacks against her amaze and puzzle me.

    • Anonymous

      “that a person with that trait wants something only for himself, and doesn’t want to share anything” she says she doesnt want to have kids because she doesnt want to share time and money, that’s selfish according to your definition. Whats more is she agrees its selfish.
      People (present company included) viewed her as attacking parents:
      “Stores voluntarily create “stork parking” for women who are capable of waddling around a mall for three hours but not across a parking lot. Schools are forbidden from serving anything with nuts in it for fear that little Johnny will die. Parents put down beloved pets after they bite in self-defense from being hit or poked with a stick by Ashleigh or Kaitlyn or Jonah just one too many times. Families with kids get tax credits funded by those who can’t have or don’t want children.”

      • Conservative apikoris

        “…because she doesnt want to share time and money,”

        She doesn’t want to share time and money with whom? With a child that doesn’t exist?

        And she doesn’t attack parents, she attacks the social attitudes that believe that parenthood is a superior state for all people. An attitude, by the way, that is responsible for a lot of unhappy dysfunctional and screwed up kids that are littering the landscape.

        • Anonymous

          she doesnt want to share period. Thats called selfish in my book (and yours if you reread the definition YOU wrote: “The common understanding of “selfish” is that a person with that trait wants something only for himself, and doesn’t want to share anything”) .
          There are many reasons not to want kids (not responsible enough, cant afford it, there are enough in the world), she listed selfish ones.
          And again she admits they are selfish.

      • Law

        “she says she doesnt want to have kids because she doesnt want to share time and money, that’s selfish according to your definition.”

        Actually no it’s not. No one gets to see Tova’s charitable tax writeoffs or whether or not she spends time volunteering. The problem is that parents think it’s ipso facto “charitable” to create kids to take care of, and then crow about being altrustic. See Chris Rock. “I take care of my kids!” “YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO!” Some people have kids and then don’t take care of them. Those people seem pretty selfish to me!

        Having kids doesn’t make you Mother Teresa. You could have found plenty of people already in need to give time and money to rather than creating a new one to specifically require your resources. If anyone is selfish, it’s parents.

    • Guest 2

      CA

      You are being too technical with the term. I believe the natural course of a human (if they can of course) is to reproduce under correct circumstances (ie, being able to actual CARE for your own children). That is what we do. I don’t believe this to be a social pressure thing, but something we as humanity do, a sort of job we have.

      I know you will disagree with me, but its selfishness because her own finances (for example) is more important to her, than, —again, as I see it— as our job here on this world. A duty toward humanity to bring productive, humans with values and duty to those that came before us.

      Would her attitude, if incrementally, slowly but surely growing and spreading in society be a good thing for this world or not?

      BTW- If i can read properly, she called herself selfish and basically said “so?”, people are not so much attacking but building on that.

      • Conservative apikoris

        Our “job” on earth is to reproduce to the point that we fill it up with so many humans that the place in uninhabitable? Ever walk down Broadway, or ride the subway during rush hour? Are all these people really necessary? And I’ve never been to Asia, where I understand it;s even more crowded.

        The only natural instinct we have is to copulate. We don’t have an instinct to copulate so that we could have kids any more than we have an instinct to eat so that we can defacte.

        • Guest 2

          Huh???

          You are commiting the same fallacy as Jurgen did above. Nobody said you have to bring a dozen children. Broadway? Why don’t you give examples of the thousands of locations that are not like broadway.

          Are these people really necassary???????? Seriously? I guess you are. I see human worth in all humans. Each one is important and necassary.

          I eat, to survive because I need to. It ends there. Nothing of value comes out it. I dare say I don’t need to explain the worth of what a person gives to the world. And yes, we have instincts to copulate (especially for males) regardless of the children that pops up. But that is what I hope differentiates us from animals. That we actually see worth in and WANT to do it for the kids, not just for the copulation.

  • Conservative apikoris

    “Who cares what you want? You have a responsibility to humanity to reproduce and continue life in this world, and by the way, its a commandment from the Torah.”

    Actually the command on the Torah only applies to male humans.

    As for continuing “life” in the world, first, most life in the world is not human. Second, not everybody sees that as a worthy goal:

    http://www.vhemt.org/

    “May we Live Long and Die Out”
    “Phasing out the human race by voluntarily ceasing to breed will allow Earth’s biosphere to return to good health. Crowded conditions and resource shortages will improve as we become less dense.”

    • Guest 2

      It is rather amazing as the schism in values between those that believe and those that don’t. Equating human life to “other” life forms and that it is not a laufty goal. No difference. Pretty amazing. I guess everyone has to believe in something

      • Law

        Yes, it’s amazing how some people believe in a man-made story about talking snakes, incidentally a story that led to women being treated worse than chattel for thousands of years, and that shooting extra responsibility out of their crotches qualifies them as philanthropists.