Guest post by Frum N’ Flipping
It’s got to be one of the worst fears of an Orthodox girl. How can you tell if the boy you are dating is not attracted to women.
Religious men are told to keep it a secret — to keep their leanings under wraps. There are those that don’t listen to the rabbis and step out of the closet — those of the YU variety for instance, but they are the minority.
So meanwhile, a large percentage of homosexual men are out there, on the Shidduch circuit, looking for a nice Frum girl to marry and with whom to have kids,with whom to build a family. Which may be admirable in principle, but let’s just say I don’t want to be that woman.
There’s no real way to find out ahead of time. You’re in a Shomer Negiah relationship. You’re not checking out the physical side of things. You jump in on faith, telling yourself that you like each other, that it will all work out later in the Yichud room — once you’re passed the wedding canopy.
You rely on ‘chemistry’ — that wonderful, promising, vague word. You rely on the way his eyes light up, the way he smiles, the glances and the vibes. But can’t that be faked? And maybe, if you want something enough, if you like him enough, you make yourself see something that isn’t really there. Because it’s there on your part, you think he’s gorgeous, and he’s going out with you, pursuing you, so surely he likes you?
So you marry him. You discover only much later what’s lurking in that closet.
Can an Orthodox girl tell if her Shidduch date is homosexual? There are stereotypes about looks, dress, voice and tone, body language and aura. There are jokes about ‘artsy’ men and sensitive souls. But maybe those men really are the husbands of your dreams, caring and empathetic and artistic, and straight.
Bored Jewish Guy was nice enough to give his take on it. I feel the same way. But is talking about it beforehand enough when boys are basically told by their Rabbis and teachers to hide it, to deceive?
Blame this post on Srugim. (If you’re a Srugim fan, and you aren’t up to date on the second series yet, please don’t kill me.) I don’t understand Reut. How can Reut know that the guy she’s dating is gay, and still be willing to carry on dating him? How can she contemplate marriage with him?
I don’t know what the truth is about how orthodox homosexuals should be handling their sexual identity. It must be hell for them; that much is obvious. I’m not here to judge them. I’m not here to offer an opinion. So much talk abounds about the men. Debates flourish, on whether they should hide it, whether they should try and lead a standard Orthodox family life.
What I never hear about — what I never thought about before is their wives.
{ 117 comments… read them below or add one }
The whole idea of a gay guy remaining Orthodox in the first place kind of makes me think of that Dave Chappelle sketch where he plays a blind black guy who is a white supremacist
Meir, what do you suggest Orthodox men who are homosexual should do, just leave religion, the only thing they know and the communities they have grown up in their whole lives?
I have a question for you. Is there are guy who you would like to date? How would you feel if you can be with a guy that you really love? Would you feel happy, would all the troubling experiences go away? How different would your life be if the Torah had nothing to say about gay people?
Now consider the following question. Suppose, for a moment, that your religious beliefs are all wrong. Then it would mean that you would have to struggle your entire life about being uncomfortable of who you are for no purpose whatsoever. As bad as being gay in an Orthodox world is, this possible situation is even worse.
I am a bisexual myself, so that makes me half-gay I guess, but I do not have to deal with the dreadful position of thinking of myself as an abomindation, and hence, my life does not feel any worse.
The simple answer is that you can’t tell by looking or after seven dates or sometimes after twenty years of marriage. Maybe he’ll act like a gentleman – i.e. he doesn’t try to touch her because he’s not attracted. Maybe he’ll over-compensate and try to ram his tongue down her throat to prove to everyone he’s straight. Sensitivity and artistic sense? Those aren’t gay or straight traits, just desperate attempts to find a rule where there isn’t one. Same with hyper-masculinity. Some of the most testosterone-soaked absolutely male men in the world are queerer than pink ink.
Religious belief won’t make a gay straight or a straight gay. It might have some effect on behavior, but even that’s iffy. It will certainly affect the guy’s self-perception, guilt and feelings of self worth. But it won’t change what he wants and probably not that much of what he does. Except that if he has strong religious prohibitions against this sort of thing he is more likely to be unsafe and put his wife and unborn children at risk.
Oh yeah, he may not “know”. The human capacity for self-deception is amazing. “I’m gobbling shmekele like a starving dog with a steak, but I never kiss the guys, so I’m straight.” Or he may have occasional same-gender fantasies and think that makes him 100% queer. It doesn’t.
A gay man may honestly love his wife, adore his children and want to have all the good things that can come with marriage. He may loathe his desires. He may keep them separate from his home life. But they will always be there, and there’s a very good chance he’ll act on them on the sly.
No amount of Talmud study will change this. “Therapy” may have some effect on behavior, but the track record is not encouraging from the hormone therapies of the 1950s to Exodus and Jonah more recently. If he’s gay his primary attraction will always be to other men. If he’s bisexual it will be somewhere in between.
The question is, can he and his wife be happy together? Can he cut out all extracurricular activities? If he can’t, can he at least be safe about it? Can he hide it forever? If he doesn’t can she live with it?
The best bet is that the answers are:
1) Only if they have drastically changed expectations
2) Almost certainly not
3) Maybe
4) Doubtful
5) Polyamory requires a ton of communication. It is not for the faint of heart or closed-minded. I have no personal experience.
Ultimately the truth is better than lies. If a man is attracted to men and not to women he needs to be honest about it with himself, with his boyfriend(s) and especially with his wife. Anything else just isn’t fair to anyone concerned. He doesn’t have to shout it to the world, although there is some value in that. He needs to deal with the world the way it is, not the way he wishes it was, and particularly not when it can harm someone he’s married to.
Dang. I just posted a pretty good letter. It’s not showing up. Hope it isn’t caught in the “naughty words” filter.
The simple answer is that you can’t tell by looking or after seven dates or sometimes after twenty years of marriage. Maybe he’ll act like a gentleman – i.e. he doesn’t try to touch her because he’s not attracted. Maybe he’ll over-compensate and be all hands to prove to everyone he’s straight. Sensitivity and artistic sense? Those aren’t gay or straight traits, just desperate attempts to find a rule where there isn’t one. Same with hyper-masculinity. Some of the most testosterone-soaked absolutely male men in the world are queerer than pink ink.
Religious belief won’t make a gay straight or a straight gay. It might have some effect on behavior, but even that’s iffy. It will certainly affect the guy’s self-perception, guilt and feelings of self worth. But it won’t change what he wants and probably not that much of what he does. Except that if he has strong religious prohibitions against this sort of thing he is more likely to be unsafe and put his wife and unborn children at risk.
Oh yeah, he may not “know”. The human capacity for self-deception is amazing. “I’m gobbling shmekele like a starving dog with a steak, but I never kiss the guys, so I’m straight.” Or he may have occasional same-gender fantasies and think that makes him 100% queer. It doesn’t.
A gay man may honestly love his wife, adore his children and want to have all the good things that can come with marriage. He may loathe his desires. He may keep them separate from his home life. But they will always be there, and there’s a very good chance he’ll act on them on the sly.
No amount of Talmud study will change this. “Therapy” may have some effect on behavior, but the track record is not encouraging from the hormone therapies of the 1950s to Exodus and Jonah more recently. If he’s gay his primary attraction will always be to other men. If he’s bi it will be somewhere in between.
The question is, can he and his wife be happy together? Can he cut out all extracurricular activities? If he can’t, can he at least be safe about it? Can he hide it forever? If he doesn’t can she live with it?
The best bet is that the answers are:
1) Only if they have drastically changed expectations
2) Almost certainly not
3) Maybe
4) Doubtful
5) Polyamory requires a ton of communication. It is not for the faint of heart or closed-minded. I have no personal experience.
Ultimately the truth is better than lies. If a man is attracted to men and not to women he needs to be honest about it with himself, with his boyfriend(s) and especially with his wife. Anything else just isn’t fair to anyone concerned. He doesn’t have to shout it to the world, although there is some value in that. He needs to deal with the world the way it is, not the way he wishes it was, and particularly not when it can harm someone he’s married to.
Full disclosure here…
My wife and I “not dated” for quite a while. We were friends, but she was married, so nothing happened. She showed up on my doorstep one day with some clothes and an expression that could curdle milk. Her husband had announced he was going for gender reassignment. He was sure it wouldn’t change their relationship and looked forward to living with her as a woman.
Uh-huh.
Right.
Miscalculated a bit on that one.
Well, that one calls for a South Park quote:
“Dude, that’s pretty f-cked up!”
Thanks for sharing. Couldn’t have been easy. I gotta say, reading this way longer than usual comment, I was wondering what prompted it. Now I know.
That’s one sex change you were happy for
Wow, A. Nuran…that must have sucked for your (future) wife!
I’ve heard of couples who have lived through that experience…I don’t get it. How can the partner who’s changing genders simply expect their spouse to automatically be OK with it?
The human capacity for self-deception never ceases to amaze me.
She got in her gratuitous catty remark for the century a year or two later. We were in an electronics store and saw “Gender Adapter: Male to Female”. She said “Poor X spent all that time and money on expensive surgery when he could have gotten the same thing here for $7.99!”
Very well said. I agree in full disclosure when it comes to a shidduch. If a young man feels that he is not attracted to women, he should be considerate and not mess up someone elses life.I know of a circumstance where a man married a woman, fathered some children and left them all when he was older. Many lives were ruined.
He can also be caught in a nathroom trying to get some.
Wouldn’t being caught in the mikveh trying to get some be the more Jewish toeiva way?
Meir,
A homo trying to get some in the mikvah would very likely get his ass kicked.
Or fondled. If you look at the new stories the circumcised baby-rapers prefer the mikvah. Or maybe it’s only consenting adults they have a problem with.
Nuran,
What’s with the baby raping rabbi obsession? I can’t imagine anyone trying to hide their orientation / perversion trying to pull something in a place like a mikvah… Have you even been to a mikvah before?
Forget the crap you may read on some perverted blogs, the chances of anything happening there are very close to zero, it isn’t exactly the most romantic setting.
come after me in the mikvah or any place for that matter and you’re GUARANTEED to get another circumsision. Im tawkin the whole nine yards.
Don’t you mean the whole nine inches ?
:):)
it is a tragic situation, not really funny. Maybe they can marry a repressed lesbian and both supress their real selves together for the rest of their lives.
Most people in the Orthodox are in denial when it comes to SSA. I read stories about guys approaching their Rabbis about their homosexual tendencies. The Rabbis dismiss their concerns by reassuring them that they have cold feet around girls and when they hopefully find the right one, their fears will dissipate. They naively believe this and go through dating and marriage without their wives knowledge of their sexual orientation. When they do ” come out of the closet”, its only too late. The wife is heartbroken of what she discovers and now their marriage is damaged beyond repair. Those who say one can have a happy fulfilling marriage with a homosexual spouse is rubbish. How could a man fulfill the mitzvah of giving his wife sexual pleasure if he is not attracted to her? How do they manage to have children together without artificial insemination? Besides, don’t guys have the same concern about dating in the closet lesbian girls too? Granted that SSA is more pervasive among the male population but it doesn’t mean the problem doesn’t exist among women. I read about one frum woman who decided to put her lesbian tendencies aside and go through her marriage. Its not known whether her husband was aware that she was more partial to women or not. My point is the fact that the right person can change his/her spouses sexual classification is a myth. I think people with SSA shouldn’t be allowed to date without resolving their issue first. Its not fair to the other person who is going into a date hoping to find someone he/she can share his/her life with. I think people need to stop burying their heads in the sand and not condemn a person to a lifetime of misery over deception.
Granted that SSA is more pervasive among the male population but it doesn’t mean the problem doesn’t exist among women. I read about one frum woman who decided to put her lesbian tendencies aside and go through her marriage. Its not known whether her husband was aware that she was more partial to women or not.
I think you’ve got it backwards. SSA is much more common among women according to the people who study that sort of thing for a living. Female sixuality is much more plastic than male. And by “plastic” I mean “malleable” not “cylindrical and powered by batteries”
It’s also a lot easier for lesbians to pass as hetero. A woman who isn’t into it can still have intercourse even if it isn’t a lot of fun. Men are more, mmm, semaphoric.
Having met some of both genders, I’d have to agree.
Though these women tended to see their martial sex lives as rape.
Thank you for bringing up. I think it’s actually even worse than this – I know this because friends have been through it. Organizations like JONAH, and many rabbis, actually tell these men that by marrying women, these women will “sexually heal” them and make them normal – They basically say they need an “acceptable” outlet for their sexuality and impluses, and women are discussed as though they are nothing but a therapeutic tool for somehow rechanneling their sexuality. Or the men are told they will never be rid of their feelings but somehow by having sex regularly with a woman they won’t have to act on it because really he just needs something/someone halachically acceptable to have sex with. Women’s job is being some kind of sexual therapist for these men, the way these rabbis talk. This is not just about social normalcy, it’s about sublimation – Using a (often unknowing) woman as some kind of prop for their whole totally unscientific and highly unsuccessful “recovery from homosexuality” agenda. I have seen this happen and it has destroyed gay men’s lives, straight women’s lives, and children’s lives. The rabbis are responsible for the pain they have caused to countless women by making gay men feel they have no other option or discouraging them from telling their wives-to-be… and to all the other parties in the marriage/family, as well.
(I’m obviously not talking here about the many people who are in deep enough denial, or just totally unaware, and therefore discover who they once already married. That is a tough road to hoe, I have a friend going through it now.)
I am fascinated by frum women who *knowingly* marry a gay man. Is there something about him that feels “safe” and therefore appealing? (For some, this is true). Is she really a lesbian and this is a great arrangement for everyone involved, other than the fact that neither will ever feel true love or real sexual intimacy in their lives? (This definitely happens). Does she fancy herself someone who can heal/save/help him somehow? (Maybe).
Rabbis and so-called frum “therapists” that claim to “fix” gay people need to take some responsibility for the damage they are doing. So do gay people who have swallowed their ideas about heterosexual marriage being the cure. It is unethical and harmful. Part of how this can change is making it easier for gay people to live celibate or partnered but halachically observant lives and still feel like they are part of the Orthodox community – Not ostracized or kicked out of shul, shamed or rejected by their families, etc. This certainly seems like a better outcome for everybody.
These rabbis are full of little round things like goats leave behind.
They should stick to making commentary on dogma and leave other things to people with some actual knowledge and expertise.
hi a,
are you muslim or a former muslim? are you a man or women? what is your motivation for being all over jewish blogs and websites?
do you have a life?
I’m Jewish, born to a formerly Orthodox couple who went Conservative some years before I was born. Tried very hard to be BT. But eventually I just kept running into too many things which were obvious lies, borderline idolatry or simply wrong. Now I’m trying to be the best Jew I can without completely giving up my honesty.
Hi Nuran,
You might want to check out Rabbi Marc Angel’s books on amazon.com, especially his book about having an intellecutually honest and tolerant Orthodox J. based on his reading of RamBam and Spinoza. He’s Sephardic, so he probably a lot more normal than the people you were dealing with.
MadMax,
The Rambam is anything but tolerant. He frequently calls mohammed and his followers “tipshim”, and puts non Jews under the chazaka of cheating on their wives even when they are home with even men and animals.
Also says that Jews gone OTD should be shoved into a pit and left there. He commands their next of kin to throw parties instead of mourning for the loss of the enemies of Hashem.
I’ve never read Marc Angel, but I suggest you check out Mishneh Torah by the Rambam so you can read it directly from the source.
Hi Phil,
I’ve read a reasonable amount of the MT in the original Hebrew ( first two books cover to cover and a reasonable amount of the rest ) and I’m painfully aware of the many ethical issues that arise.
However, I must say you are taking things out of context and even completely misrepresenting the MT on the “Jews gone OTD” issue. It well known that RamBaM spent a considerable amount of his time helping OTD Jews get back on track, including but not limited to the Jews of Fez, Morocco many of whom had become agnostic or converted to Islam, the Jews of Yemen and the Egyptian Jewish Karites. It is fairly obvious that the only Jews he wants to “shove into a pit” are the Kapo’s of the world – those Jews who are OTD and helping persecute their brethren.
Many liberal Orthodox Jews like RaMbaM due to his underlying rationalist methodology and philosophy.
MadMax,
The Rambam considered most non religious Jews as victims of assimilation, therefore does NOT lump them into what I called “OTD”. I was referring to the ones that DID know better, i.e. frum yeshiva graduates that decide to throw it away and turn atheist, etc.
Read hilchot Mamrim in his book of Shoftim for more info on who he considered apikorsim, mamrim, etc, and who deserves compassion vs. who deserves to be shoved in a pit.
I can’t imagine how “liberal” Jews enjoy Rambam, unless they didn’t actually read his works, and just think of him as a smart Jewish doctor. The m.o. people that I’ve learned Rambam with now consider him outdated and racist.
Besides him being a genius and highly learned tzaddik, I love reading his work because of his “in your face” non compromising attitude, and telling things the way they are, often using graphic and extremely farfetched hypothetical cases to make his point.
Thanks, MMIJ. I’ll look those up.
This happened to me. After seven years of marriage, two children and a third on the way, my husband told me he was gay. I was left reeling as I’d had no idea. We’d had a very brief courtship and were shomer negiah throughout. There was no indication to me of his homosexuality. In retrospect, I think he was probably self deluding and hoping his feelings would dissolve with marriage. This is a very real issue that unfortunately affects the frum world, as it does the secular world.
Everyone has yetzer haras. Married stright guys will have a yetzer hara for their better looking neighbors wife. It does’nt mean they should act on it! And the reason why they don’t if theyre religous is because it is death penealty in Hashems book! A married Jewish closet gay man also prob. won’t act out on his yetzer hara for the same reason- since in the torah it says ‘an Abombanation’ and gets the death penealty.
So I think that a gay leaning dude can prob. hold it togther enough to live a nice life with a wife and kids. Yes it will be challenging, but no one has it easy, thats a fact.
Rizzo you misogynist idiot. What you fail to realize is many women, yes, including frum Jewish women, desire if not crave physical intimacy, including sex. Some women do not care for sex until after they have been de-flowered, others see it as an annoyance and do not become sexually aware until they turn 40. Irregardless, for you to say “a gay leaning dude can prob. hold it togther enough to live a nice life with a wife and kids”, completely ignores the woman’s side of a healthy marriage that includes regular sex. Not to mention the horrifying possibility (probability more likely), that said “gay dude”, will at some point, seek out a man for sex, sleep with him, and possibly bring home a STD to his wife, such as Hepatitis or AIDS. So if ANY man (is a 20 year old shmendrick from yeshiva a “man” anyway? most look and have the maturity of 12 year olds), knows he likes other guys and is not attracted to women, do everyone a favor and DON’T DUPE AN INNOCENT RELIGIOUS GIRL into marrying you. You selfish shits.
But would you like to be his wife? Every woman wants to be wanted and desired and loved as a woman.
True but even for a stright man this is hard. We look around, we have yetzer haras- and there will always be a better lookin younger lady out there. Its hard for striaght guys too.
It may be hard for straight guys too, but at least the Torah and the Orthodox world set hundred of barriers to ‘save them from temptation’ – the laws of Yichud, being Shomer Negiah, Tznius, etc.
On the other hand for homosexuals there are none of those barriers. Think of the Mikvah for starters.
So it’s a lot more worrying to be married to a homosexual.
The mikvah argument is overused.
The real difference is a straight person can exhaust their energy with their spouse. A homosexual person will sadly lack no matter what halachic steps they take.
I was married to a woman who did not have a libido. She insisted that she was straight, but simply did not find pleasure in marital relations. We went to a therapist, and tried to work it out, before making the decision to divorce.
That’s the difference for Orthodox Jews. When we’re confronted with a partner who is possibly gay, bisexual, asexual, closet-atheist, etc, we try to work it out, before calling for a divorce.
@s – any couple, Orthodox or not, provided both parties value the relationship they’re in, will try to work it out before contemplating divorce.
You’re still missing the point here.
A gay man will not become straight no matter how much he tries to overcome it. His wife will never be first in his heart. Or loins. It’s not like an “evil tendency” to sneak out for bacon – lettuce – and tomato sandwiches. It’s as fundamental a part of who he is as blood type and as futile to change. A straight guy can be trained not to cheat on his wife. He can even cheat and still be hot for his wife. A gay guy never will any more than the straight one could be trained to be turned on by beards and broad shoulders.
I work as a therapist in Jerusalem and one of my responsibilities is working with men with homosexual attractions. I run a group for such men and currently most of the guys in the group are married. Also, because there is a dearth of therapists experienced in this area, I often receive calls from around the world seeking a consultation — from married people, or from people who are dating or wanting to date.
It is not an easy struggle and I wouldn’t recommend marriage for anyone with this problem unless both partners really understood what they were getting into. It’s not just because of the possibility of homosexual behavior continuing. The previous commenter was closer to the mark when she wrote, “Every woman wants to be wanted and desired and loved as a woman.” But even more, there is the very important aspect of marriage that has to do with emotional intimacy and in particular dealing with a woman’s emotional needs.
Still, marriage can work, and it can work well. It’s just not a decision to be taken lightly. One needs guidance from rabbis and therapists who are well experienced in this area.
Please feel free to email me (szjessel is my gmail address) for references, etc.
May I ask, what general advice would you give, as a therapist, to a married gay man?
Thank you Adam. I am actually a straight man but I am interested in psychology.
What a bunch of emperors-new-clothes this Jessel is. Frum psychobable nonsense. If the woman is gay and not attracted to her husband, because she does not care for MEN, then they should get a divorce. If the man is gay and not attracted to his wife because he does not care for WOMEN, then they should get a divorce. Talking about their marriage twice a week with some putz with a degree in psychology is stupid and pointless. Yes, “proo u’revoo”, but chazzal also goes at great lengths how a husband must make his wife happy, which includes regular sex. And chazzal did not have to spell out that the sex must be willing and loving! You and all your compadres, Jessel, should be ashamed of yourselves.
We have yetzer haras but we are still attracted to our wives. And if we are not, somtimes that leads to divorce.
After four kids leaving the wife pretty much unable to find a husband because she’s older, has kids and is under an undeserved cloud. Meanwhile the liar is free to chase shvance. Kind of hard on the girl, isn’t it?
There’s plenty of straight guys in shidduch marriages that aren’t necessarily attracted to their wives either. What does it matter? Ugly women need husbands too.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If a woman’s husband is not attracted to her, he will find someone he is attracted to on the side. Such is life and such is the nature of people. “Ugly women need husbands too” makes no sense because no woman wants a husband who will not find her desirable.
But this is not a husband this is a companion
True story:
A frum gay friend of mine came out to his rabbi. The rabbi said he must not act on it, should get married and it will “go away”.
My friend thanked him for his advice and asked to marry the rabbi’s daughter.
You could hear the silence.
that’s a nice one…
Next time you see this guy, please buy him a big glass of whatever he’s drinking. Have Heshy give you my email so I can reimburse you. Seriously.
I wish I could.
He committed suicide a few years later. He left a widow and small child.
Then have one in his honor.
Oh
Thank you, Avrumy! This is the truly frightening thing about “therapy” programs such as Jonah – yes, even more frightening than the abuse they heap on the heads of those they are purportedly “helping”. The fact that most of their “success stories” involves a woman duped into marrying a man who will never truly desire her physically, although he may be able to love her as a friend. The fact that innocent children may be born into a marriage based on sham and deception. It would be more honest if they advised their clients to live a life of celibacy, but I doubt very much if they do that.
There are some frum gay men who seek to marry frum lesbians in an attempt to establish families that will be accepted by the community. I have no idea if any have successfully done so or how these marriages have worked out. But at least both parties would know what they were getting into from the start, and would have a chance to work out the ground rules for their relationship before bringing children into the picture.
Thank you, Avrumy. This is what I find most frightening about “recovery” groups such as Jonah – yes, even more frightening than the abuse they mete out in the name of “therapy”. Most of their “success stories” involve deluding women into marriage with men who can never enjoy true intimacy with them. And then children are born into marriages based on lies. That rabbi would not want that for his daughter, yet he has no trouble with deceiving someone else’s daughter.
Hilarous story!
Good luck everyone!
I am a frum gay guy, who stopped dating girls in my 20’s, when I realized it was wasting everybody’s time.
Some musings:
We grow up knowing we can’t talk about this to anyone.
We go to single’s weekends hoping we will share a room with a handsome guy and maybe get to see him in a towel or less.
We date and look at other dating couples and are jealous of the girls.
We date, thinking we will find the girl that is so perfect that we will forget guys.
We date, hoping that if we do find a girl to marry, she has good-looking brothers.
We LOVE negiah laws.
Wow, we really apreciate you saying these things forthe blog. So is there any hope, can you be married and closet gay and can that work out in your oponion?
Based on my experience, most closeted married frum guys live a life of compartmentalized desperation, whether they are playing around or not. Always afraid something they say or do, or a glance in the wrong direction, will give them away. Granted a straight-acting life is easier for frum guys due to negiah (before marriage) and niddah laws (after marriage) than for non-frum men.
Many frum women are (or were) less sophisticated about six and married young and virginal. There was nothing to compare her gay husband’s sixual activity to. He was nice to her and the kids, put food on the table, provided companionship and some intimacy; maybe that’s enough if you don’t know better.
If a husband comes out to his wife, he has to be mentally prepared for a divorce. And for gossip. And legal battles. Few duped wives choose to stay with their husbands. Some do for the sake of appearance, family, or because they really do like their man. Most toss him out on his lying a$$.
It sounds like you’ve got lots of anecdotal evidence. Is this so common of an occurrence as you’re making it sound?
There are enough kids with divorced gay dads to start a small new yeshiva.
On a happier note, today’s younger frum/orthodox gay guys are in a different predicament. Thanks to internet and TV etc, they know that they are gay at a younger age and that they have options. Unfortunately, for many it means leaving much of their yiddishkeit behind. For those that stay religious it is still difficult and stressful. All those well-meaning ladies with wonderful girls for you. All your friends getting married and losing touch. So of course, some still get married, but less than in previous generations.
I don’t know about the truly charedi communities. But I do know there are plenty of married guys on line, looking to play.
What kind of “options” do they have? Celibacy?
Marrying a manly looking woman who’s into anal and/or pegging. lol
Celibacy is for priests. And we see how well that works.
Avrumy,
Still doesn’t answer my question about what options they have.
There are many Orthodox single men who have been celibate their entire lives.
I meant to say, “There are many Orthodox heterosexual single men who have been celibate their entire lives.
I meant to say “heterosexual Orthodox single men.”
Q, I don’t envy them.
Phil, a gay man’s options are to not have sex, or to have sex. Just like anyone else. Ideally, they would find a partner and live a fulfilling life. At least they should avoid mishkav zachar and get on with their lives. But if celibacy floats your boat, go for it.
Q, I don’t envy them.
Phil, a gay man’s options are to not have six, or to have six. Just like anyone else. Ideally, they would find a partner and live a fulfilling life. At least they should avoid mishkav zachar and get on with their lives. But if celibacy floats your boat, go for it.
Avrumy,
Heteros don’t have the option of being celibate, we are commanded to have kids. Besides, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to be celibate unless they were impotent.
Your scenario doesn’t make much sense. Do you actually expect 2 frum guys that have s*xual feelings for each other to shack up as “room-mates” and not do anything?
When I say “mishkav zachar” I mean @n@l six. Other acts are of little or no concern to us. Only to dirty-minded rabbis of yore.
Avrumy,
Those other acts are not an “option” for anyone considering themselves to be frum, they are assur drabanan, again just like chicken and milk, etc.
The fact that you have the audacity to refer to Chazal as “dirty minded”, leads me to question how you define yourself as frum.
Contrary to your belief, the internet and TV do not override halacha, and your twisted lifestyle is not “OK” by any frum standards, as much as you may try convince yourself and others that it is.
What about marrying a lesbian woman? Then she wouldn’t have an issue with the husband being gay because she would feel the same way.
I remember seeing something like that online, I just can’t find it now. Gay men were looking for shidduchim with lesbians. Some gay people can find communities in which they can come out and be accepted, together with their partners and children, and that’s wonderful. I know several couples like that. But for others, especially those with very traditional families and living in more frum-intensive communities, such a compromise might be the way to go. Beats celibacy, anyway. One woman’s worst nightmare might be a dream come true for a lesbian (or asexual) woman.
Based on my experience, most closeted married frum guys live a life of compartmentalized desperation, whether they are playing around or not. Always afraid something they say or do, or a glance in the wrong direction, will give them away. Granted a straight-acting life is easier for frum guys due to negiah (before marriage) and niddah laws (after marriage) than for non-frum men.
Many frum women are (or were) less sophisticated about sex and married young and virginal. There was nothing to compare her gay husband’s sexual activity to. He was nice to her and the kids, put food on the table, provided companionship and some intimacy; maybe that’s enough if you don’t know better.
If a husband comes out to his wife, he has to be mentally prepared for a divorce. And for gossip. And legal battles. Few duped wives choose to stay with their husbands. Some do for the sake of appearance, family, or because they really do like their man. Most toss him out on his lying a$$.
Tough call for the wife. If the guy came out and told her that he cheated with another guy, she’d probably dump him in a second. Question is, what happens if he “comes out” about his feelings but doesn’t act on them?
Would a woman kick him out simply because of his preferences?
This is clearly a complex issue, with plenty of material to joke about, but with some very grave consequences if the gay man in question will live a closeted life.
I am curious though as to why this entire discussion centers around gay MEN…
gay women can marry gay men and live in misery and denial together.
Seriously, I don’t know why people would want to belong to a religion that makes them supress who they really are. I have a problem with belonging to such a religion myself and I am not gay.
Check this out – I interviewed a frum lesbian
http://www.frumsatire.net/2009/08/03/interview-with-an-orthodox-lesbian/
Nice. Impressive that you got the interview and she seemed candid. While some of the comments were upsetting as they were bashing her and her way of life, she did make an important point
-coming out to her friends and family allowed her to live a more normal and healthy life
I think that is the point and what this discussion should focus on… I mean, rather than advising people how to hide who they are by pretending to be straight, duping unsuspecting females or trying to blend into the community by marrying a frum lesbian. It is understandable why people may want to do that – the desire to be accepted by and to fit into the only community a person ever knew is a strong motivator – but ultimately, every person needs to be aware of who they are and do right by themselves and others.
And maybe someday the frum Jewish community may view its gay members as just that.
Huh huh now were getting some where… but seriously not really issur for woman but if theryre open about it, yes same conseq. Knew a frum jewish girl who came out, wow never saw her again…
Rizzo,
Still assur drabanan, kind of like eating chicken with milk. As much as guys might think girl on girl action is cool on TV, I’m quite sure that the vast majority would kick out their wives unless they were swingers.
If homosexuality is assur, shouldn’t that apply to both men and women? Whether its girl on girl or guy on guy, either way, procreating is out of the question, so it cannot possibly be condoned by religious authorities.
Also, cheating is cheating, whether with same gender or opposite.
However, I was throwing it out there from a different perspective. If we’re talking about the mens and the trouble with being a gay Jewish man, the flip side of that should be considered and discussed, and not just from a deceived wife standpoint. I’m just saying…
Wow, I actually got a reply by the Famous Phil of FrumSatire. I guess that makes me one of the regulars like the giil with only one eye in the photo, abandaning eden, and frumnflipping! If only Hesh would post a comment to me….
It happened in certain hassidic circles in Jerusalem. A wealthy family was looking for a shidduch for their daughter and they found this fellow who was the top guy in yeshiva and “a real masmid”. However, before the wedding he requested that the apartment that the girl’s parents are buying them should be on his name. The family thought it over and concluded that it was a legitimate demand, because “one has to pay for such a talmid chacham”. Now, on the wedding night, he refused to consummate the marriage, admitted he was gay, sold the apartment, and from the money, bought another one in the gay quarter of Tel Aviv… No idea if the girl managed to receive a get or if she remarried.
Wow thats quite a drama and bad ending for a lot of people. Did that really happen? whats the source haartez?
It would have been easier for her to get remarried as a widow than go through the hassle of a get. Just sayin’, y’know…
lol, im one of the gay guys
looking fr a shidduch!
Matchmaker, matchmaker
make me a match
Find me a find
Catch me a catch
Tizku lbnos bayis neeman byisroel!
Maybe the solution is to have gay shiduhim services so the women are left to the guys that can’t find those nice Beis Yakov girls to begin with.
The Onion: How Gay Should Your Husbanf be Before You File For Divorce?
http://www.theonion.com/articles/how-gay-should-your-husband-be-before-you-file-for,17320/
At most frum weddings ive attended, the chosson snuck over to the side and made out with his chavrusa a bit.
ha ha ha lmao. you sick f**k
Hot!
yes you are tova. wanna go out? or in if you prefer. lol.
Yes, because I’m going to want to have sex with a random stranger off the internet who used a pick-up line on me. Ugh!
Who the hell are you, weirdo?
I’m just a red headed, muscular, good looking heterosexual male with a sense of humor that thinks your hot; or if you prefer- attractive. definitely not a weirdo. chill.
It turns out shes actually fat as a whale, see all the commments on her post.
holy shit. you’re right. checked out her facebook. looks way different than this black n white picture. so ugly, she could scare the dog off the side of the grayhound bus. and oh so weird.
and i know moshe ??? g-d you’re soooo different. but hot nevertheless.
why is it that if a married guys that turn bisexual its nasty, gross, and f’d up. but if the wife goes bi then many husbands would think it’s hot. -( if he can watch.)
Its a matter of opinion. Generally, speaking, I say live and let live. Personally speaking, I don’t want to be part of anything other than one on one hetero experiences, but that’s my personal preference. What’s gross and nasty to one person, is attractive to another.
the question is whether you and the husband have children. Then perhaps he’s not that gay, if he was able to naturally impregnate a woman.
Ability should not be confused with preference/enjoyment. If a man’s equipment works, he will have no technical issues empregnating a woman… he may have to picture men to get the job done, but he will be ABLE to do it.
There’s no such thing as “not that gay” … like being “a little pregnant” – someone either IS or ISN’T gay.
If you could force yourself to “catch” when someone else was “pitching” would it mean you weren’t so straight?
I love red heads! Are you sure you don’t want to switch teams?
As a formerly frum gay Jew trying to hide my sexuality from myself, all the while realizing more and more that I thought my chevrusa was hot, my biggest fear was being the horror story. I figured that if I married a girl, had a few kids, etc., that everything would work out as it should and I would stop being attracted to guys. Then again, what if I met a really sweet, cute, gay guy? What would I tell my poor wife and kids? I won’t say its easy coming out, but at least I never had to actually become the stuff of nightmares.
It seems to me that if man isn’t reasonably sure that he won’t have sex outside marriage, then unless his wife-to-be understands that this is a real possibility, he shouldn’t be getting married.