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What if moshiach were modern orthodox?

Why is it that every time something bad happens, people start to talk about moshiach being on the way?

I always thought that moshaich is going to come at his or her prescribed time and no one can really do anything about it. Some believe he came 300 years ago, others believe he came in 1994 (which has always made me wonder why Chabadnicks that believe the Rebbe is moshiach always sing we want moshiach now if hes already here), then you have the skeptics who think that the moshiach concept was created so people could have something to look forward to, every time they thought the world was coming to an end.

I also think that if he came, issues would arise, because there is no way on earth that Chassidim think a misnaged is going to be moshiach and visa versa, can you imagine if moshiach is revealed and he wears a kipah srugah, talk about Charedi rioting. What if moshiach comes and its a woman, or a woman who had a sex change before he became frum. I can only imagine the craziness that would break out and hence I dont think moshiach is going to come anytime soon.

Can you imagine if moshiach wasn’t even religious? Does it say anywhere that moshiach has to be religious or orthodox? There are plenty of Jews that do really good things that aren’t religious at all – I know that when moshiach comes people are going to argue about it.

{ 61 comments… add one }
  • Steve January 28, 2010, 4:49 AM

    Please, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I heard that the moshiach is going to be someone who has never commited an aveirah. If so, I’m not sure that someone who isn’t frum has a chance (shabbos, kosher, etc). I’m not going to get into how, maybe, since a frei person hasn’t been introduced to Torah, he may or may not be responsible for his aveirahs. That could affect things, but it certainly doesn’t help.

    • Lizardqueen11 January 28, 2010, 9:06 AM

      a leader who never committed an aveira… I can’t imagine such a thing, nor could I endorse such an individual…

    • Anonymous June 11, 2013, 2:01 AM

      You are wrong.

  • G*3 January 28, 2010, 5:08 AM

    You forgot the two billion people who think moshiach came two thousand years ago.

    The real answer is that moshiach was originally the person who would restore the Jewish monarchy, a scion of the Davids dynasty for the fragmented political factions of the time to rally around and beat back the Romans. The people who saw the churban bayis sheni expected moshiach to come in their lifetimes. As have every generation since.

  • Aviva January 28, 2010, 5:39 AM

    According to a talk given by Lori Palatnik, one way we’ll know it’s Moshiach is that ALL the Jews will agree that this person is it.

    Which is pretty darned impressive, considering that we can’t even agree on what pizzas are any good.

    • DrumIntellect January 28, 2010, 10:18 AM

      It would be easier to agree if kosher pizza tasted good and wasn’t so expensive!

      • Meir January 28, 2010, 11:47 AM

        You’ve never had good kosher pizza?

        Wow, and I’ve never had BAD kosher pizza (at least in the United States)

        • DrumIntellect January 28, 2010, 12:04 PM

          Never is a strong word. Since “only Sith speak in absolutes”, I will not say never. However, my recent forays into kosher pizza tasting have not been promising.

          • yakov January 28, 2010, 12:46 PM

            im with drumintellect on this one!
            it is rare to find genuinley good kosher pizza! tho I’ve had a few nice surprises in israel with good pizza! but here in america you gotta be lucky! one day a certain pizza could taste delicious when the next day that same place will not be approved by yours truly!

            • DrumIntellect January 28, 2010, 4:24 PM

              Sorry Yakov, but after trying the pizza in Israel a few times it took me months to recover and be able to eat “normal” pizza again. I don’t know if it’s the Israeli cheese or the sauce, but…

              Hopefully the taste is better now that almost 9 years have passed.

              • DrumIntellect January 28, 2010, 4:32 PM

                *months to recover enough to be able to eat

                • lakewood skeptic January 28, 2010, 10:29 PM

                  awesome how moshiach turns ito a pizza disscussion

                  • yakov January 29, 2010, 2:03 AM

                    i was thinking the same exact thing…lol moshiach pizza….
                    and @drumintellect the pizza place i was reffering too had just opened up in ’08 so maybe thats why!

                    about the actual blog: I’m really looking forward to meeting the man/woman who can get the approval of ALL of judiasm!!
                    like jacky mason once said “the biggest anti-semites left in america are…the jews!”

  • Johanna Gordon January 28, 2010, 5:51 AM

    I think if the Mosiach is to come it is going to come from one of the Refornim! And Reform does not even believe in the Mosiach’s coming, so its 50/50 that that the Mosiach might even be a woman! Awesome! If that is true, then rock on!

    • AriEliyah January 28, 2010, 6:00 AM

      Yer a silly, misguided twit.

    • Shimon January 31, 2010, 3:11 PM

      The Reform don’t necessarily believe that there will be no Moshiach, rather they believe in a messianic era where (nearly) all of the things that will happen with Moshiach will happen, but that this era can be brought about by people working towards those things now.

  • A. Nuran January 28, 2010, 6:27 AM

    Moshiach will probably turn out to be an Ethiopian geneticist. Ethiopian because they’re the only ones with even a tenuous connection to the Davidic dynasty. Geneticist because he’s supposed to untangle everyone’s tribal affiliations.

    Which means that the Charedi will probably kill him.

    • abandoning eden January 28, 2010, 8:00 AM

      moshiach will probably turn out to be a flying spaghetti monster, who will touch everyone with his noodley appendage.

      (about as much validity as your statement there)

      • Yochanan January 28, 2010, 3:53 PM

        He will have to bridge the Pesto vs Tomato Sauce schism.

      • Compulsive Hand Washer January 29, 2010, 12:58 AM

        RAMEN!

      • A. Nuran January 29, 2010, 5:56 PM

        Much less, actually. There were Jews in Ethiopia long before there were Jews in Europe, let alone Poland or Russia. The genetic evidence is that they are at least as “Jewish” as the Ashkenazi. And since “family tradition” and “the gedollim order us to believe” are valid forms of evidence as far as the frumbags are concerned, the claims of the Ethiopian Jews to be descended from King David are at least good as half the Talmud, Shulan Aruch or Maimonedes’ secret family formula estimates for the coming of Ha Mosiach.

        The geneticist bit? It makes more sense than anything the rabbis have come up with for how he (or she) might accomplish the disentangling of tribal membership.

        Given my druthers I’ll take the FSM’s version of heaven. Hookers and beer sounds like a better deal than most afterlives.

  • Mo January 28, 2010, 7:57 AM

    The alter rebbe said moshiach would be a misnagid b/c chassidim would accept him but not the other way around.

    • Rabbi January 31, 2010, 2:19 AM

      i heard it was the Baal Shem Tov that said that – either way it seems to rule out the Lubavitcher Rebbe – to which the meshichists say when the Baal Shem Tov (or perhaps as you say the Alter Rebbe) said that he was just kidding.

  • anonime January 28, 2010, 8:01 AM

    I once heard a Rov jokingly say that Moshiach’ll be a modern-yeshivish guy w/chassidish minhagim and background. Therefore, nobody can really claim “ownership.”
    Also, to answer Steve, the concept is called “tikoik shenishboh.” Or, “A Baby who Was Kidnapped.” Basically, someone who wasn’t raised frum, b/c of their background, isn’t really responsible for having eaten treif, and been mechalel shabbos, etc………I think….

  • Lizardqueen11 January 28, 2010, 8:44 AM

    . . . and perish the thought that Moshiach could be a WOMAN … I’m still convinced that my friend Simone is the future Messiah – but I try not to tell her too many times a day or else it will go to her head.

    (After reading this post, I can’t help but be reminded of my Bais Yaakov Derech program and the poem “Mashiach’s hat.” I found a sweet and cheesy version on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpvZjui4uek)

  • Avrumy January 28, 2010, 9:30 AM

    Question: When did the concept of “moshiach” first appear in Judaism?

  • JOe Blow January 28, 2010, 10:06 AM

    Rav Yaackov Kamenetsky said Mosiach will be like Esther. Every group will see themselve in him, just as Esther was claimed by all nations. Although as a true snag, I can’t conceive of Mosiach as anything other than a true Litvak. Shall I nominate myself

    • Deena January 28, 2010, 1:48 PM

      The Alter Rebbe, also known as the baal hatanya, and founded of Chabad Chassidus was a litvak! So now you can rest easy that whoever Moshiach is you will accept him b/c even if he is a chassid, he has a “diverse” back round!

      Side note: the idea that Moshiach is someone that we will decide to accept or not is so insane and shows how egotistic people are.
      when Moshiach will reveal himself we will be so happy he is here we will accept him. he will show us how all of am yisroel are one and there wont be dividers or labels (sorry heshy but your post will be obsolete).

      • Rabbi January 31, 2010, 2:22 AM

        the Brisker Rov zya said that when Moshiach comes we will be running away from him in fear. he said everyone thinks he will come like a Rebbe visits a town and there will be a big tish and ask that checks be made out to American Friends of Moshiach, but he said it won’t be that way.

  • YY January 28, 2010, 12:26 PM

    Perhaps he’ll be Sephardic/Mizrachi but part Ashkenazi by ancenstry, so he’s descended from the Besht, the Gra, the Alter Rebbe, and Baba Sali. Maybe that would make everybody see themselves in him.

  • E. January 28, 2010, 12:38 PM

    If he’s going to be a little of everything, he’s going to be called ‘mess’iah

  • Phil January 28, 2010, 3:32 PM

    Found a proof thatmoshiach is very near:
    Shimon Peres put on a kippah and read a prayer during his speech in Germany a couple days ago.

  • CYL January 28, 2010, 6:19 PM

    To Heshy Lubavitchers always joke amongs themselfs that Moshiach would have to be a misnagid since a Misnagid would never accept Moshiach if he was a chosid while chasidim will aceppt Moshiach no Matter who he is

    To Steve Even if someone commits Avrias it is possible to do Teshuvah and get to a stage where it is as if he never commited any Aveiras

    To Aviva Ramabam who is the only Poisek to speak about the criterias that Moshiach needs he dosent mention anything about Everyone accepting him (while the Rebbe is the only one to fit the criteria perfectly)

    To Avrumy The torah hints to it many times for example this Weeks Parshah BeShalah it says AZ YOSHIR meaning then they will sing which is going on when moshiach comes amso the Torah says that we have to set up Orai Miklat in the 3 more lands over what the yidden got till now going on when Moshiach comes and there are many more again i would highly recommend reading the Rambam on Moshiach

    • Rabbi January 31, 2010, 2:26 AM

      what? did he build the Beis HaMikdash and I didn’t hear about it? I’m not ruling out the possibility that he could come back and become Moshiach (although if Moshiach comes from the dead why would it be someone so recent when it could be Moshe Rabbenu or Dovid HaMelech, so it is a bit far fetched to think that it will be the Lubavitcher Rebbe, but still not ruling it out), but clearly he is/was not Moshiach (at very least not yet) because he did not build the Beis HaMikdash etc.

      Also, the Gemara says Moshiach will not come until there is no Jewish government anywhere, so we have to pray for the speedy and peaceful dismantlement of the state of israel if we really want Moshiach to come.

      • Phil January 31, 2010, 9:23 AM

        Rabbi,

        I don’t think the Israeli government ever qualified as a Jewish government, especially during the early years when they extreme anti religious policies in effect.

        Furthermore, if a Jewish government in Israel were to be dismantled, you’d have millions of Jewish lives in direct danger, so praying for the downfall of Jewish run Israel would be against halacha.

        Tell that to Neturei Karta.

        • Rabbi January 31, 2010, 11:12 AM

          not downfall – peaceful dismantlement – like if israel annexed all of the territories it would make it no longer a jewish majority – i.e. one state solution (instead of 2 state solution that will put jews in eretz yisrael into much worse danger because they won’t be able to control the terrorists – if it were a one state solution then all of the jews would be able to team up with the normal arabs – at least 40% must be normal, although i think it is more and they are just being taken advantage of by their so called leaders – and really have peace with dignity and freedom of religion)

        • Rabbi January 31, 2010, 11:26 AM

          what about the direct danger millions of Jewish lives have been in for the past 61 years due to the instigation of the zionists? for hundreds of years jews and arabs lived in peace until hertzl came up with this dumb idea to instigate antisemitism (that is what he wrote in his writings, that the idea of the zionist movement is to instigate antisemitism around the world to force immigration to his judenstadt, as well as to engender sympathy from the world to want to make it – just it backfired that in the state they made there is worse antisemitism as well, although i wouldnt be surprised if that was the plan all along)

  • Phil January 31, 2010, 1:06 PM

    Rabbi,

    Jews team up with “normal” arabs? 40% of arabs are “normal”?

    I have 3 questions for you:

    1) What planet are you from?
    2) What have you been smoking?
    3) How do you define “normal”?

    You can’t seriously expect arabs to with Jews against there own brethren, it’s against everything they believe in.

    You can’t expect arabs to be loyal to a state that believes in the right of return for Jews only, along with all the other “racist” laws put in place by the zionists.

    I have some news for you: Jews and arabs didn’t live in “peace” before modern day Israel existed. Go back to school and learn about all the pogroms and discriminatory laws Jews faced in arab countries for 1000 years before Herzl existed.

    There is only one solution: Destruction of all mosques and churches in Israel, followed by kicking out any non Jew that doesn’t accept sheva mitvos.

    • B.BarNavi September 5, 2010, 3:51 PM

      Geez, someone should tell the Bavlim just how in the world they got so rich and connected if there was nothing but discrimination and pogroms!

  • Shimon January 31, 2010, 3:36 PM

    Here is what I don’t understand about some Orthodox understandings of the Moshiach:

    The Moshiach has to do a number of things, such as oversee the rebuilding of the Temple, bring Jews back to the land of Israel, bring about lasting world peace, etc. But some believe that you can’t work on accomplishing these things without the Moshiach being around – but if somebody can’t start working on doing these things that show you are the Moshiach until after you demonstrate you are the Moshiach, how could anyone ever be acknowledged as the Moshiach?

    I image something like this:
    Moshiach: Hello, I am the Moshiach
    Rabbis: Nice to meet you, but we need you to prove it
    Moshiach: How about I rebuild the Temple?
    Rabbis: You can’t do that, we don’t know if you are really the Moshiach.
    Moshiach: How about I introduce political reforms to make Israel a halachicly Jewish state?
    Rabbis: No, that can only happen when the Moshiach arrives.
    Moshiach: How about I gather all of the exiles back to Israel?
    Rabbis: We have to discourage anyone from going until Moshiach arrives.
    Moshiach: Then how can I prove it to you?
    Rabbis: If you are really the Moshiach, everyone will agree that you are the Moshiach
    Moshiach: But why would anyone believe me if I can’t do anything?
    Rabbis: …

  • Moshiach February 1, 2010, 1:56 AM

    @ shimon and every one here how we are gonna figure this one out i have been thinking about it recently=)…. there’s nothing to worry about when the right time comes H*shem will take care off all these issues. In the mean time please keep learning, praying, and increase the good deeds and it will be all that much sooner. (it’s pretty close) can’t wait to meet all of you ;).

  • moose February 1, 2010, 6:34 PM

    i think this is something everyone should see. It’s about the prejudice we commit among ourselves. we are all jews, one and the same despite our different dress, different actions and positions in life.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpvZjui4uek

  • yosh February 10, 2010, 12:45 PM

    Personally I’ve always thought the Moshiach will be an Israeli BT raised on the street (or in some other horribly difficult circumstance). Yehudah and Tamar anyone?

  • Hobbyist April 26, 2010, 6:27 PM

    No no you guys are all wrong!! Moshiach is the boogie man!!!!

    I can’t believe you guys seriously. There’s facts in rambam and zohar and everything saying criteria for moshiach. its not a woman, not a reform person, none of that stuff. He’s a descendant of dovid hamelech and there’s criteria that he has to follow and be under that category to even be a possibility of moshiach. the only way we’ll know who moshiach is is if he builds the beis hamikdosh and gathers the dispersed etc… Trust me we have a whole subject dedicated to the topic of moshiach in our school. I’m not talkin out of my tush here. 🙂

  • ash May 2, 2010, 9:13 PM

    B”H
    The only answer is to drop the b.s about black hats and the whole you wear this and i wear that. If there’s Torah being learned, and H’ being loved, and no fluffy stuf, which really doesn’t matter at all- especially to H’, then Moshiach would be right on his way!- To tell you the truth, do you really think H’ cares what color your hat is,
    i think not. and i think its all a bunch of craziness that doesn’t have to be there. Love your fellow Jew, Love H’, and get on with you darn day my friends 🙂

  • Dave May 17, 2010, 11:52 PM

    What if Moshiach was not Jewish at all? Would you then reject Him?

    Actually Moshiach is neither Jewish nor Christian nor Muslim. He has no religion of his own. He is actually the spiritual leader of ALL humanity – Jews, Muslims, Christians included.

    In fact, He is already here . He emerged early this year (5770 as predicted by the Rebbe). He has not declared himself as the Messiah yet, but he comes for everyone – not just the Jews. Soon – possibly within a year, most people will recognize him as the One.

    • A. Nuran May 18, 2010, 1:10 AM

      In fact, He is already here . He emerged early this year (5770 as predicted by the Rebbe). He has not declared himself as the Messiah yet

      Got anything resembling, ummm, evidence for that bit? “A dead rabbi said so” isn’t evidence. It’s an unsubstantiated opinion you’re taking on faith.

  • Ilana August 28, 2010, 7:47 AM

    Heshy rote: “or a woman who had a sex change before he became frum”.

    Vilna Gaon wrote in the Book Kol haTor, that Mashiach ben Yosef (the one before Mashiach ben David) MUST do Tikun Adam and Tikun Olam. What’s Tikun Adam? He/She has to FIX him/herself before appearing as Mashiach (Tikun Adam = Tikun Min = Sex Reassignment). It’s pretty interesting the view of Arizal (Shaar haGilgul) about the special spiritual purposes of a transgendered person…

    And why a woman? Because will come from Beit Yaakov, and every reference to Beit Yaakov in the Scriptures is related to the Jewish women (compare to Beit Yisrael = men).

    Will he/she have a religious background? The midrash (Bamidbar rabbah 14:2) says NO. Mashiach ben Yosef will “learn G-d” by his/her own, just like Abraham Avinu, king Hizkiya and Yoav did. What does it mean? He/she will understand by his/her own the secrets of kabbalah like no one else in the generation. Like Yosef, who was called Tsofnat Paneach, Mashiach will understand and explain “what is hidden”/kabbalah.

    Mashiach ben Yosef will NOT be a born israeli, because he will come from a northern country, and most probably will have sefaradi roots.

    Will all of this in mind, it’s easier to understand why Chazal say that Mashiach will first be accepted by the secular jews and afterall (only after death) by the rest of the people (a.k.a. orthodoxes).

  • B.BarNavi September 5, 2010, 3:54 PM

    Has anyone considered the possibility that Mashiah is an Ars from Ashkelon? Yes, you’ll have to deal with a King Messiah with his shirt open all the time, Magen David pendant hanging over his hairy chest, making proclamations as he scratches his ass.

    • Dan Ardel January 30, 2011, 7:42 PM

      B.BarNavi-have you actually been to Israel?

  • david london May 8, 2011, 4:14 PM

    are your words written on your heart?

  • Eli August 28, 2011, 5:34 PM

    Everyone at my summer camp knew Ari Winkelman was the mashiach. Any day now he’ll be getting on that Temple rebuilding ;-).

  • Karen October 2, 2011, 12:15 PM

    There’s a kid here who was born on Tisha b’Av and he was born circumsized – they just did a hatafat dam brit even though he was a newborn. He should be 16 now. I’ll keep you all posted if I hear anything.

  • Tina December 24, 2011, 8:12 PM

    If Moshiach comes, anything that we say, regardless of any label given us by humanity / society, is not even going to be of importance. The only thing that will bring peace to all, will be the destruction of the constant labeling of this one as such, and that one as such. The only time for Moshiach will be when humanity ceases to exist…because humanity is limited, contrained by their own objectives, and lacking in a true understanding of the creator’s intention for the world, which Moshiach will be represenative of, and have complete understanding of. Moshiach couldn’t last a day in our world. It is too…below Moshiach.

  • Tina December 24, 2011, 8:16 PM

    And besides…Moshiach doesn’t need to come from Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, etc, etc, etc. grouping of jews. Moshiach is not going to be easily defined by a label, as people are.

    Doing good deeds, completing charity, etc…possibly striving to being a Tzadik, should be natural for people…without needed pressures or constant reminders from other people. Moshiach will never come, as long as people need to be reminded, to be truly good and dedicated to G-d, and not be caught up in the idiosyncracies of the world.

    I’m sorry, but tuly, I just don’t see it happening.

  • bratschegirl December 24, 2011, 10:37 PM

    Seen around town: a bumper sticker saying “Moshiach is coming. Look busy.”

  • Ari Gold June 11, 2013, 10:11 AM

    Ya still waiting on Moshiach. Carry on then. Smh.

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