The torah warns us that there are 3 things that are so reprehensible that the only way we can refer to them is as a Toeiva, an abomination. The first and the one that gets referred to most often is homosexual activity. Everybody knows that this is a toeiva, the charedim gleefully refer to homosexuals as “toeiva individuals”, “toeva marriage” “toeiva rights” etc. Eating bugs is equally called a toeiva.
We spend much time discussing the importance of checking vegetables for small bugs, we need to filter our water and I know of one restaurant in Monsey that has an employee whose job it is to sit at a table with a light box and check lettuce a whole day. The final thing that is referred to as being a toeiva is not acting honestly in business. The torah tells us “lo yiheh lechah bebeischa even va-aven gedolah ve-ketana. . . even shlemah va-tzedek yiheh lach, eifah shelemah vatzedek yiheh lach . . . ki TOAVAS HASHEM ELOKECHA kol oseh eleih kol oseh avel”. Yet it is surprising that the same people who are gleefully referring to YU as a toeiva institution and those boys on the panel as “toeiva students” are silent in the face of the Spinka rebbe being sentenced to 2 years in jail and come to the defense of a guy like Rubashkin, to the extent that one rabbi in the 5 Towns feels that it is the bloggers who are to blame for all of the problems klal yisrael is having, not the people creating the chilulei hashem by stealing.
There is a clear double standard when it comes to YU and when is comes business ethics v all other aveiros. For some reason many in the “frum” community are much quicker to forgive someone who commits a crime than someone who engages in other things that are asur. Had the Spinka Rebbe engaged in Mishkav Zachar and then said “chatosi” would the community have been so quick to forgive him? After all only misa is mechaper for chilul hashem.
It is being reported in the Jewish Week that another scandal has hit the “frum” community. A man by the name of Eliyahu Weinstein is accused of running a $200 Million fraudulent real estate scheme. It is also alleged, that some of the money was being run out of various charities, (including supposedly, Kars 4 Kids, an organization that is no stranger to fraud), here we go again. Yet I don’t see anyone referring to Mr. Weinstein as living a supposed toeiva lifestyle when that is what he is accused of doing.
The difference between most of the panelists at the YU forum and people like Rubashkin, the Spinka Rebbe and supposedly this Weinstein guy is that the panelist were struggling with urges that they were fighting off and trying to reconcile living in the Orthodox community while not giving in to their taavos.
These people are living lives of toeiva where they are acting, or accused of acting in the most immoral way, not only that but they are bringing other people in their community into their lifestyle with them. I think that if the panelists at the YU forum can be referred to by various “frum” websites as “toeiva students” it is only fair that from here on in we refer to the Spinka Rebbe as the “Toeiva Rebbe” Rubashkin should be called the “Toeiva Butcher” and should the allegations against this guy Weinstein be proven to be true he shall be referred to from here on in as the “Toeiva Askan”.
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{ 82 comments… read them below or add one }
The Spinka Rebbe has gone on various speaking tours claiming how misguided he was and warning others not to make the same mistakes. He is unfortunately off to jail as well. There is no need to mention him in this discussion, if anyone has done a true public teshuva and is definitely sorry for their sin it is the Spinka Rebbe. To begin with he really did not believe what he was doing was so wrong, all our zaydies and bubbies in europe had to do dishonest things to survive in Europe as all local governments worked on bribery or hated Jews, it is hard to remove that belief that it is okay to do. Now he is truly aware and sorry for what he did encouraging others to distance themselves from dishonest business dealings, and paying for his deeds with hard time. It is wrong to include him in this discussion.
oh pleeeaaaasse he didnt know what he was doing was wrong!!!i find that hard to believe,hes a rebbe he should behave BETTER than most people,
While we might disagree on your assertions that he fully knew what he was doing I am assuming you do agree that he has done Teshuva and does not deserve to be discussed in this manner. Even you say hes a Rebbe he must behave better then most. You are right most people if accused of similar crimes would not take it upon themselves to do a public teshuva and make sure others don’t fall into the same trap.
how come people only do teshuva after their sent to jail or caught,never before,
just wondering.
Better someone who does nothing immoral (like be celibately gay) than someone who does a post-bust teshuva.
I am not sure regarding other people but i do feel that the Rebbe did not fully realize the extent of wrong that he was doing. Btw on you tube you can see one of his speeches with attorney Ben Braffman. Regardless of what you feel about the Spinka Rebbe the videos with Braffman are very good. Re: your question we are all human sometimes we are so unaware that we are late about the teshuva until the aveira stares us in the face. This applies whether it is an aveira as consistently not remembering to make a brocha shehakol on every drink we have or a talking during davening until the Rav publicly shuts you up. I myself am no tzadik but one thing i started doing a while ago is something bought down in many seforim, before going to sleep I review my deeds of the day, its a trmendous help in trying to not repeat your not so great behaviors.
BTW most teshuva is post bust we dont really realize what we do until after the fact. We say slach Lanu, and tachanun virtually every day, but none of us Daven for forgivness on an ordinary day with the same fervor as we do on yom kippur when we are forced to confront the wrongs of the past year. Ideally, we should feel that sorrow for our sins everyday when we Daven. Though, if we are sincere Hashem excepts are teshuva whenever it is and it is never to late if we are sincere as are tradition states even with the sword on your neck its not to late.
Obviously teshuvah is done after the averiah. there is nothing to repent for if the sin wasnt done in the first case. The toeva rebbe however commited the same immoral act on numerous occasions, and it is not particularly likely that he said an al chet after every single one of them and then kept doing it. The point is that this public act of penance only took place after he got busted.
Definitely! I presume he’s an intelligent man. So would an intelligent person not realize that taking charity funds and kicking back 80% or so to the donor and giving him a 100% tax receipt is not stealing from the taxpayers? He knew what he was doing . .
It does not hurt to be Dan lekaf Zechus, on someone that has done teshuva. Chasvishalom if you were in trouble and did teshuva you would not want people still talking about you, he desrves better. Any deragatory comment is Motzei shem Ra and Lashon Hara.
I actually meant your neighbor down south
Let the Spinka Rebbe rot. Let all “Rabeim” rot for all the illegal things they’ve been caught doing. The Spinka Rebbe was not aware? MY ASS. Its all about money with 99% of Rabeim. Want to know why? Its because the true keepers of Klal Yisroel were Polish Jews and their leaders, and 90% of them were murdered in the Shoah. What survives today is THE ASSHOLE of Klal Yisroel, namely Hungarian and Romanian Jews and their leaders, who are lying, cheating, deceiving, yidden who dress the part and ACT as if they were tzadikim, but in truth, are GARBAGE. I’m going to let you in on a little secret – MOSHIACH IS NEVER COMING, as Klal Yisroel, from the secular to the chassidish, is mostly shit.
You say you are from NY based on your language I am assuming you are from the Bronx Zoo
fuck you
While Rubashkin was possibly doing something interesting with his documentation , can you show me one store or company that does not have illegal workers. The country thrives on it there was once a very funny article called the day the mexicans didnt show, and it detailed how are country fell apart. If the government was so keen on this issue we would not have such a preponderance of illegals in this country. violating having Illegals on your payroll is a law that is selectively enforced to the extreme. The factory was definitely singled out for political and/or antisemitic reasons. regarding the other guy, the Jewish week always love a good story involving the Frum Community. This person is entitled to a full trial until then it is all Loshon Hara and hearsay
“Rubashkin was convicted in November of 86 counts of financial fraud for his role in the bank- and document-fraud scandal at Agriprocessors Inc. The plant’s former vice president is expected to challenge his convictions before the U.S. 8th Circuit Court of Appeals. “
“But everyone else is doing it” – This is a very sdomy answer. Illegal is illegal and it doesn’t matter how many other people are doing it, that doesn’t justify the matter. Being the biggest bust (not the first) in American history doesn’t exactly make it any better. The problem is that illegal undocumented workers are so prevalent the Government has a hard time tracking down every case. The chillul hashem is having the chutzpah to commit the crime, then act as if nothing was done wrong, then having thousands of people ignore all the evidence on the crime to pretend it’s government anti-semitism and make every excuse in the book.
Heshy, thanks for the link. A sting, at issue is not the illegal workers it is the $30 MM mortgage fraud for which he was convicted. He lied on his loan application and played games with bank accounts so that it appeared as if he had more $$ than he did to get more out of the loan. He lied and stole from the bank yet is being treated by some in our community as a hero who is “taking one for the team” . Cheating a bank out of money is stealing and a federal crime. Though I do not take pleasure watching other Jews going to jail he should serve as a lesson to those in our community who think it is OK to steal and cheat.
This goes for people who misuse public funds and don’t pay taxes on their income, as well. If you don’t understand why public education and the roads you drive on and the elderly and disabled are all things that are important for you as an American citizen to support, please make aliyah. Education leads to less crime. Good roads mean less accidents. Help for the elderly and disabled also prevents crime and exploitation and needless harm from being done. Never mind that there are Jewish people who benefit from education in public schools and services for the elderly and disabled. To say you give tzedakah instead of paying taxes doesn’t cut it. Tzedakah doesn’t buy new subway cars or buses, it doesn’t give kids who can’t afford school lunches at least one good meal per day. It doesn’t take someone’s bubbe or someone in a wheelchair (or someone whose disability isn’t blatantly visible!) to the grocery store or give them help they need at home but couldn’t otherwise afford. I don’t mean just for Jews, I mean for ALL people. Want to be a light unto the nations? Shine yours by helping people regardless of what color they are, what they believe or with whom they wish to share their lives. If you don’t need public assistance, please don’t use it. It is designed for people who truly need it, not people who seek to take advantage of others. I’m far from perfect, and I’m more human than I’d like to be; improvement happens one day at a time, if you put your mind to it. Change for the better comes one day at a time. This is a challenge for me, for everyone.
I agree with every word you wrote.
Well said.
In fact, there are many more than 3 acts which are described as Toevah (and I’m not sure there is consensus that the best translation is ‘abomination’ – the context might suggest something closer to ‘foreign’)
Some other uses of the word toevah in the tanach (bible):
Wikipedia weighs in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_(Bible)
And found this link:
>>Now, whole books have been written about this stuff, but basically Leviticus 18:1-3 and the Deuteronomy 23:17-18 set the scene for arguing that the other Levitical passages are based on idolatrous, same-sex pagan temple prostitution. Scholars argue that the word for “abomination” (toevah) is used to refer to the pagan practices of other nations. You brought evidence from Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I will likewise only refer to Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Leviticus 18:26, 27, and 29 refers to all of the sins in the chapter (incest, relations when the woman is menstruating, adultery, sacrificing children to Molech, sex between two men, and bestiality) as “toevot”. Deuteronomy 14:3 refers to forbidden foods (animals that don’t chew their cud and have split hooves, aquatic animals that don’t have fins and scales, certain birds, animals that die of themselves, and cooking a kid in it’s mother’s milk) as “toevah”. Deuteronomy 17:1 terms as “toevah” bringing an animal sacrifice that isn’t physically perfect. Deuteronomy24:4 describes as “toevah” a situation where a man divorces his wife, she marries another and is again divorced or widowed, and he remarries her. Deuteronomy 25:16 calls dishonest business practices “toevah”. Is it the opinion of the scholars that all sexual offenses (not just male-male ones), forbidden foods, maimed sacrifices, remarrying a divorcee who has been married to someone else, and cheating in business are also only prohibited in the context of pagan temples?
(http://www.orshalom.ca/dolgin.toevah.htm)
So it’s all on the same level as passing a baby’s head over fire? Interesting…
too bad the titles of the “whole books” arent referenced there. Ive long suspected that a good number of negative mitzvot are of the “dont do as the pagans do” class.
while I will not weigh in on the legalities of the case , it is very easy to find definite anti-semitic undertones in the trial, such as the prosecutor assuming him to be a flight risk to Israel because he was jewish. Imagine the outcry if an african american were denied a passport by a judge on the grounds they might flee to africa even though they are an american citizen. Due to this well known incident and others I am not sure of the fairness of the trial.
But African Americans don’t fly to Africa, while you see all the time that Jewish crooks go to Israel to escape.
A) thats not true B) And even if what you say it is true, it is still antisemitism an american had his rights comprised based on his ethnicity would someone thats of Irish decent that is an american citizen without dual citizenship be told he cant have a passport because he might flee to Ireland? In new york there are many citizens who have relatives in other countries would this ever fly for a minute over here?
Yes. People with close ties to and citizenship rights in other countries ARE denied bail on those grounds.
prosecution did it on a belief not based on due diligence
Prosecution entered into evidence the following:
He had lied to the US Government about a trip he had just taken to Canada.
He had a “go bag” with (if I recall correctly) $20,000 US and Passports and his house safes were open and empty.
Couple that with ties to (the ability to claim citizenship in) a foreign country with a long history of difficulties in extradition to the US, and the prosecution had a pretty good case for denial of bail.
However, the standard for those on trial (as opposed to convicted) puts the burden on the prosecution to demonstrate that there is no possible set of conditions that would prevent the accused from fleeing, or that the accused is a threat to the community, or that the accused is a threat to witnesses or evidence in the case.
The appeals court held that sufficient steps could be taken to assure that the accused would not flee, and therefore allowed bail. It did not hold that the prosecution acted out of malice, or engaged in any prosecutorial misconduct in regards to its case for remand.
“He had a “go bag” with (if I recall correctly) $20,000 US and Passports and his house safes were open and empty.”
All that means is that he had tremendous emunah bvias hamoshiach byadeinu. A tzaddik!
I am sorry that I admit I might know so much about everything entailing this case, however, a jew right now is in tzaros (caused by himself or otherwise) please judge Likaf Zechus, secondly as me for sure and i am assuming everyone else here have opinions that will in no way have an effect on the case for now are not accomplishing anything except potential loshon Hara. If he is innoccent We should just Daven that he should be well. If chas vishalom he is not we should also Daven that he be well and his teshuva accepted.
So I take it you’re not for racial profiling of Middle Eastern looking folks at airports?
ant-smeitism my6 foot. of course he wasa flight risk…asa jew he would immediately be accepted as an Israeli citizen….no such guarantee is in effect for any black person going to africa…..the fraud and stealing in the frum world is overwhelming and it is repulsive.
but it goes further than that….many take pride in the fact that they steal and they consider people who do not rip off the govt with section 8 and food stamps to be stupid.
they collect food stamps while they own 5 buildings in other peopele’s names. Repulsive no matter how much they shockel!
The difference between guy on guy and dishonesty in business, is that true the torah refers to both as an abomination, but guy on guy has with it being considered an “abomination” even in the non-jewish world, whereas dishonesty is not considered an “abomination” in the non-jewish world.
Psychologically, being gay is considered more disgusting than being dishonest. I think thats pretty clear.
And maybe when chareidi websites call dude on dude “toeiva” but not dishonesty, maybe there going with that in mind – -that dude on dude has 2 abominations against it (jewish and non jewish) and dishonest has only 1 abomination against it (the torah- but not society)
I have no idea if this is a joke or not…
First of all, so what? At what point did the jewish moral or religious compass take into account external points of view? Did you know that Muslims believe you are an infidel? Is that a reason for us not to be friends? That statement aside, from a non-religious perspective it is pretty much entirely acceptable to be gay. All of the persistent homophobia and hatred in our culture and other progressive, secular cultures is entirely due to either a residual religious effect or a fear of what the individual does not understand.
Either way though… wtf?
That you find something icky isn’t enough of a reason to label it an abomonation.
Really? Really? You don’t think world cultures and societies consider dishonesty to be toeiva? Wow – didn’t go to University did you?
And there are plenty of cultures who have little issue with homosexuality.
Pick up a book sometime, eh?
I think people are quicker to forgive crooks because most people have that desire to cheat if they thought they could get away with it.
On a SPIRITUAL level, is a Rubashkin type sin any worse than the guy who realizes the Walmart clerk gave him $20 extra in change and pockets it? Or than the guy that finds a bank error in his favor and doesn’t report it?
The bank error in your favor is clearly exactly 10 times worse than the $20 change scenario, because from that you collect $200.
Brian,
Was thinking the same thing. Only thing is that when it’s coming from the “community chest”, the bank investors don’t suffer, that’s why they can afford to pay you $200 for passing go
What makes Rubashkin and the Spinka rebbe worse is the chilul hashem that surrounded them. The gays at YU had a panel and were looking for tolerence and compassion. These guys were doing the oposite and swindling banks and the government.
Rubashkin and the Spinka rebbe are getting plenty of compassion from their supporters. Rallies for pidyon shvuyim, lectures on how they’re doing teshuva, or how he government is persecuting them…
The difference is that the four openly gay YU alums are not intending to renounce their attraction to men.
Is there an issur to have an attraction? They are saying that this is something they are living with and most of them admit to not acting on their urges, better than Rubashkin and the Spinka who don’t try to control themselves until after they are caught and convicted.
all of us have thoughts we are not supposed to have and unfortunately many of us have a big yetzer hora or other issues which make us act on those thoughts while other people will not. For these people it is a very hard nisayon not to act on their impulses however the purpose of the forum at YU was to try to gain compassion for them to work them into halachic frame work so they eventually will not have to consider what they are doing to be an aveira. While i truly feel bad for them with this hard Nisayon, and I am sure Hashem judges accordingly, how much stronger of an urge can they have then someone who is a pyromaniac a kleptomaniac or other type of issue which fills a person with an urge to do aveiras? While we love the person we would never try to deny their sin which is what the people having homosexual feelings are trying to accomplish in the long run. They claim that we cant help are urges it is not our fault, we should be able to do this without it being an aveira.
heshy-
isn’t your blog supposed to be frum satire?
if i wanted these serious thought provoking intellectual posts, or some liberal drivel about how we have to be tolerant to all of mankind, there are no shortage of those kind of blogs.
please stick to frumsatire thank you
There is an element of satire here, on how the term toevah is being thrown around.
More than enough other stuff for you to read if this doesn’t interest you. Nothing wrong with a guy being serious every now and then.
Heshy Tweeted that he wishes he could write some funny stuff and I responded that he should write whatever he feels like writing or putting up.
Writers cannot force anything, they write for the sake of it – if you wish to read something funny go back to the archives from 2006 and read up my friend.
Heshy is providing important discussion amongst segments of the Jewish population that rarely go head to head in a public forum – I have never even stepped foot in a orthodox synagogue, yet here I can debate and discuss issues with Jews I never even talk to on the street.
…abominable homosexual.
I seriously hope your servers blow up to high hell.
Another crackpot with access to a keyboard….
I believe that if the Spinka rebbe or any other high profile frum Jew got involved in a homosexual relationship, got caught and admitted his wrong, went on a public apology tour and made speeches intending to inspire people to avoid his problems, that he would be forgiven at least to the extent that the Spinka rebbe has; probably more so.
The Spinka Rebbe admitted to it. Weinstein I have no clue about. Rubashkin on the other hand insists he is innocent and based on what I have heard about the goings on at that trial, I am inclined to believe him.
What goings on? You mean that he wasn’t allowed to bring in someone who had no direct knowledge whatsoever to “testify”?
Or that the Judge held that “he has a disabled child” isn’t something that is germane in determinging guilt?
There is no such thing as a toeiva individual and the idea that there is reflects poorly on the character of those who use that term.
Hopefully in this new decade (both on the lunar and solar calendars) the Orthodox world will remember to hate the sin, not the sinner and that you cannot emphasize the importance of one sin over another. When I first went to Chabad on Campus, the Rabbi did not say anything when I said I take the train home on Saturdays (I was more secular then), even though I was desecrating the Sabbath. Whether or not its a sin, homosexuality is for the most part not a choice, and if we need to encourage mitzvot and discourage sin, let’s try to focus more on problems that can be more easily remedied.
At least homosexuals have evidence for their side that it isn’t a choice, what logic does Rubashkin and the Spinka Rebbe have, along with that $200 million swindler? What they did was no less an abomination.
There is a clear double standard when it comes to YU and when is comes business ethics v all other aveiros. For some reason many in the “frum” community are much quicker to forgive someone who commits a crime than someone who engages in other things that are asur.
Judges and courts can get away with “undrehanded” anti semitism because the majority of non Jews and sadly, even many secular Jews feel the same way.
Those same liberal Jews and atttiude of being “horrified” when OJ’s lawyer played the race card against the cops at his trial worked like a charm, he got scott free for a brutal murder.
Maybe Americans have too much guilt about black slavery. Maybe their were afraid there would be riots if a black celebrity had the book thrown at him and got the death penalty he deserved. Maybe they just didn’t want to convict a former NFL star.
What I’m getting at is that:
Yes Rubashkin broke the law big time, but did he really deserve to have his company destroyed and spend the rest of his life in prison? Wouldn’t the factory, workers, Postville and the US taxpayer be infinitely better of if they gave him a steep fine instead?
Your theory fails to explain why OJ Simpson is doing hard time without a single riot.
And if you think the penalties for financial fraud are too severe — contact your representatives in Congress and urge them to reduce the penalty.
Dave,
This time around he was caught red-handed. Last time, the high profile lawyer cast enough doubt in the minds of of the jury by blaming the “racist” cops.
I live in Canada where the laws are even worse. People get away with a few years for murder, probation for rape and jail time for financial fraud.
Worse, complaining to politicians does absolutely nothing, they are just figure heads for their political parties that show up at your door once every 4 years to tell you that they love you and deserve your vote.
First time around, I think my reaction was “Wow. The LAPD framed a guilty man. Badly.”
Dave,
So your saying you think he should have got the death sentence and got off on a technicality? Sounds like true American justice.
I’m saying the burden of proof is justly on the state. And yes, it is better that the guilty occasionally go free than that the innocent are convicted.
Dave,
Thanks a million for proving my point. You bleeding heart liberal Jews have no problem with a brutal murderer thug getting of scott free, yet when a frum Jew does something wrong, you guys are the first to say “throw the book at him”.
I personally think they could have shown some compassion, but then again I’m not an Iowan judge eager to make an example out of the Jew which is exactly what happened.
Uhmmmmm. What?
I have no problem “throwing the book” at people when they are convicted.
But you have to prove they did it first.
They proved Rubashkin did it.
Hell, they proved OJ did it in Vegas.
I’m really not happy that the Blackwater guards had the charges dismissed yesterday, but I recognize that the court found that the prosecutors had built their case on excluded evidence.
They throw the book at people when they feel like it, at other times people get a slap on the wrist.
I’m no lawyer, but when Martha Stewart got to sit in a country club for a few months for insider trading and Rubashkin gets life in prison for some fake amounts on a mortgage application, it makes you question the “justice” be done.
Martha Stewart was actually convicted of obstruction of justice (four counts). For which she was sentenced to 5 months in prison and 5 months home detention plus 19 months probation, out of (if memory serves) a maximum possible 16 months, and right in line with expectations based on Federal sentencing.
Rubashkin is likely to get between 20 and 30 years for a conviction on 86 felony counts (out of a theoretical maximum of something in the 1200 range, but that wasn’t ever going to happen), according to the Federal Sentencing Guidelines.
I’m not sure what you’re questioning here.
Dave,
Like I said, I’m no lawyer. All this proves is that your justice system stinks, not that we needed any proof.
Martha gets busted for insider trading and all she get’s convicted for is obstruction, while Rubashkin was facing 1200 years for fake signatures?
Are you telling me that he’s 8 times worse than Madoff that “only” got 150 years for the $50 billion ponzi story?
Rubashkin was never facing 1200 years.
There is no chance (zero, zip, zilch) of any judge handing down the maximum sentence on all counts to be served consecutively.
The only people who even pretended 1200 was a real number were Rubashkin defenders trying to portray him as a victim of persecution. A ploy that seems to have worked in your case.
Martha Stewart was convicted of one count of obstruction of justice, and two counts of lying to investigators. Sholom Rubashkin was convicted of 86 felonies.
Madoff pled guilty to 11 charges, and drew the absolute maximum sentence. Not that there is a meangful difference in his case between 50 years and 150 years. I have no doubt that had it gone to trial, that number of charges would have spiraled greatly — the plea removed any need for the government to dig up more evidence on Madoff, and left them free to focus on Madoff associates.
Dave,
I didn’t follow any of the trials at all, better things to do. I simply caught a glimpse of the headlines once these people were convicted.
The fact that Madoff will now sit in a country club funded by his victims tax dollars is another great example of true justice.
As for people having the book thrown at them, a good friend of mine had his life destroyed by your stinking system. Again, he was a nice Jewish boy that go into minor trouble in Texas. Judge gave him the max, he ended up dying in prison.
just so you know, there are apparently 2 Daves. I was the one on the forum and I’m changing mine to David to avoid any confusion.
hesh, while i agree with your post. i especially agree that the charaideshe and the misnagishe olam refers to homosexuality as Toeiva is absurb..they seem to always ignore reality and think they can sweep it all under the rug. i also think is crazy that a guy like tropper is called a victim!!! they should call it what it is home sexuality is homosexuality,,,a sexual scandal is a scandal wether tropper wasnt getting it at home or is very healthy sexualy whats the difference it is a sex scandal.!!! however i dont think you should bring in the spinka rebbe or rubashkin into this…
Rubashkin is not innocent. his own attorney said it was sloppy and the work of incompetence. He lied on a mortgage application, as a result got a $30MM loan. That is stealing and he should be punished for it. I am not an attorney or a judge to say what punishment he deserves but if commit do a crime and get caught chance are you are going to jail.
What world do you live in where criminals aside from violent ones actually get jail time? Many wall street and bank execs out of pure greed and stupidity sunk this nation’s economy and ruined many people’s lives. Why are they rewarded with bail outs? Where’s the justice there? The fact is justice is selective in this here US of A. And even IF he is guilty, the punishment is completely disproportionate to what many far worse criminals receive when they do happen to get convicted.
Uhmmm, the real one.
Criminals, non-violent criminals, draw jail time all the time.
You just don’t pay attention to it, it seems.
Although i don’t usually comment on Blogs, i make an exception here.
The Posuk quoted in the article “lo yiheh lechah bebeischa even va-aven gedolah ve-ketana. . . even shlemah va-tzedek yiheh lach, eifah shelemah vatzedek yiheh lach . . . ki TOAVAS HASHEM ELOKECHA kol oseh eleih kol oseh avel” is referring to a specific type of stealing that is not so apparent, cheating in weights. The customer may not even be aware that he is being cheated, and could possibly lead to some to think that it is permissible to do this. So the Torah says it is not, and is a Toevah.
However, taking money outright from a person, is not (what i have checked up) is not called a Toeva. Cheating in taxes is not Halachikly could stealing (yes Dina D’malchusa Dina, but that does not make M’chuyav to pay back Halachkily.
All i want to say is don’t use Halachik terms and labels on someone when it may not be the case.
Right. Fraud, cheating on your taxes, defrauding poor people who thoughtthey were getting homes (and the criminal in that case got a hero’s welcome when he came back to Lakewood), not that bad.
Bacon on the other hand…
Cheating with weights and measures is known as fraud in English. We also use the word fraud for a range of crimes including “tax fraud”.
The more you know…
The “so called” spinka rebbe aka Tuli Weiss learned his trade from his daddy who was involved in frezzing bodies in, to extend social security payments, The Garden Nursing Home on St Johns Place in Crown Heights not far from his shteebel on Crown St in the late 50’s
ok, so they are both a toeivah.
regular people don’t like discussing gays. the whole thing is weird. plain and simple. for a moment, leave religion out of it. your average person just thinks it’s weird.
it’s only because there’s an abundance of gays in the media and entertainment industry, that people even talk about it.
Idealistically, Jewish people are supposed to be above it all. We’re supposed to be perfect; the proof is in the way the media handles our community. We are human, and we are religious. However, keep in mind that we are human, and humans have a strong tendency to make mistakes. I’m not excusing any behavior. (I really do not have an idea what happened with the Spinka Rebbe, and I don’t think I want to know. )In fact, I do not appreciate YU’s enlightening panel discussion. However, I just want to remind everyone that if they would remove the Jewish part out of the scandal, they no longer would blink an eye. And just to clarify, since you obviously have not gotten your smart facts straight, keep Oorah out of this. Oorah has nothing to do with this scandal. But if you’re looking to be part of the lawsuit have your lawyer contact me…
Awesome post
here is an amazing documentary about this topic,it is from achristian point of view but it applies to judiasm too,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AVRslVRbY
explains a lot!