Homosexuality and orthodoxy is not so simple, I know there is an ongoing article between several folks on the interview with an orthodox Lesbian post from the summer. I can understand both sides, Homosexuality is one of the worst sins possible, according to most it is classified as deviant behavior and many folks simply think of it as a disease – which I find kind of funny because these are the same folks who say that gay people are the types that have tried everything under the sun and now they must explore more to fulfill their desires.
Yeshiva University held a symposium on being gay in the orthodox community last week and it drew quite a large crowd.There are quite a few articles about the event on the web – I picked some of them that I found worth reading.
The Curious Jew transcribed the event and Rabbi Gil Student makes a very good point about those people who attended the event, in his post about the growing problems of post-orthodoxy. Harry Maryles also talks about the YU Gay event. The Jewish Star had a great piece about the event this past week as well. Read the YU Commentator artcle as well.
But being gay and orthodox isn’t so simple, it’s not just another thing like keeping kosher, or not telling loshon horah, it’s a sin that doesn’t hurt anyone and it really hurts not to have love in your life. Telling someone they cannot get married or find true love is really tough. Imagine you were in their shoes, and you knew that in order to get married or raise a family you would be in violation of the religion you so strongly believe in. It’s really not so simple as just saying “screw you fags keep it in your pants.”
Then of course you have the issue of trying to deal with a public sinner, unlike other sins that are done in private, relationships are usually public, people are going find out if you chose to do these things in secret and who on earth wants to have a secret relationship – gay pride is not about a bunch of flamboyant queens running around in pink thongs (at least not in my mind) it’s about celebrating the ability to love freely, without being locked in a closet of lies to family, friends and the world.
The real complexities of being gay and orthodox in my mind, is trying to figure out what to do about it without lessening the torah values. Saying things like “you can be gay, but you cannot act on it” have no value in my mind, they are ignorant, like telling older singles to be shomer negiah forever – it just won’t work. But, does having symposiums like this hurt orthodoxy? Does it bring us all down a notch because it seems people are trying to change the torah view on such things and it really cannot be changed. Although someone in Berkeley told me that they had attended a shul in which during hagbah they realized the pasukim for sodom and gemorah were blacked out in the actual scroll.
So I am torn, I am one of those who want live and let live, yet I don’t want people changing the torah and that is what I feel is possible. I feel that it is only time until someone comes along and decides to remove certain phrases, or reword certian parts of the torah and some day they may be orthodox. On the other hand, I don’t think that gays and lesbians should be treated any differently then heterosexuals, that includes marriage and having families filled with wonderful children.
- Rabbi Sara Hurwitz is the first orthodox woman Rabbi – is this wrong or just against the status quo?
- Yeshiva University Transgender Professor Controversey
- Thanksgiving: another Modern Orthodox vs. Frummie holiday
- Shabbos Goy University
- Frum But With It vs. Modern Orthodox Machmir: It all comes down to the velvet
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{ 111 comments… read them below or add one }
Deep thoughts…. waiting for it….
The gay issue is one of those things that prove to me just how outdated and irrelevant the torah is as a text to live my life by. It has good things in it, but it’s mixed up with so much primitive and sometimes barbaric instructions. It reflects a social ethos that was relevant to the primitive tribes that lived here thousands of years ago. Not really relevant to the 21st century. No offense.
Stoning for gay sex is just one aspect of it. Easy enough for me to solve as a secular Jew.
One of my many struggles with being orthodox, such a struggle, the torah is so periodical and it’s obvious – hence the need for the gemara, but that is outdated too so they made the shulchan aruch and then the mishna brura – but they too are outdated, in many ways. Apparently the torah is a living torah, but I do struggle with a lot of the concepts, I may have to repeat this comment in it’s own separate post.
Please do! It sounds like you have some very interesting questions to discuss.
Torah is periodical, Torah law is not. New interpretations and understanding are required throughout the ages. That’s not to say that old ways need replacing, but they require new levels of understanding that did not previously exist.
If someone doesn’t believe the Torah is from HaShem as IsraeliMom apparently doesn’t, then there is nothing to talk about (and the argument that a disagreement from fluid secular ethical standing proves the outdatedness of Torah is a weak one). If you believe the Torah is from HaShem then we believe it’s an eternal morality and there’s little more to do about it (as the wording is pretty much explicit) just like any of the other halachas that have come and gone through their popularity/unpopularity.
Paradoxically, the view that some parts of the Torah don’t make sense today (see IsraeliMom above) may come out of values and ideas that are in the Torah itself.
Torah is from HaShem and it’s eternal, but this doesn’t mean that our understanding of it can’t change and hasn’t changed. Torah is a living thing, it’s not a fossil. The wording is much less explicit than people think, but our understanding (and halacha, eventually) won’t change unless people who are equally committed to Torah AND understanding about gays get to grips with it.
As an honest comparison, there is no reason halacha should change now to accommodate this particular attitude anymore than it ever has. Why would our situation be more demanding of a reinterpretation than Canaan, Egypt, Greece (and Rome by extension) or any other civilization where homosexuality was popular and accepted (while having significant Jewish populations who most likely went along with the trend to some degree)?
This isn’t a halacha that’s going to go anywhere, attempts to try and reread the passage in a new way are not very easy to swallow, even remotely in a “what if” way (and I’ve heard quite a number of “creative” attempts to reread the pasuk).
That said, the only way we can deal with it is just accept the fact that it’s something that some people are going to inevitably break, just like the other 612 mitzvot, and we don’t stone people for breaking shabbos either. But the extent that gay advocacy wants Judaism to change? Pretty much a brick wall there. It’s just a conflict in values at the end of the day.
Looking forward to that post.
I’m an atheist, so not too many dilemmas for me as to whether the Torah, the New Testament or Krishna’s words, are “the word of God”. We’re all apes, genetically engineered towards life in a clan, looking up to one big almighty ape. At some point, when our clans became too big, we invented an imaginary ape in the sky, and things just rolled on from there. That’s my take on it, anyway.
That said, assuming One does believe in an almighty deity that runs the world, question remains why would that deity want you to follow a man-made collection of ancient scrolls? IMO, it’s just a bunch of people that came up with it – had I been a believer, last thing I’d do was follow someone else’s interpretation of the deity. I’d be looking for a more direct connection, or doing it my own way.
Sorry for taking this a bit off-topic!
Hesh, well written!
I second Mottel
well writtne and thank you!as a gay frum guy its great to see not EVERYONE in the frum community is prejudice,though i am exsuasted from defending myself on the VIN article that they had about the same YU forum,what people write there in the comments is terrible,but i feel like i wasted my time,i dont think being gay will ever be accepted in the orthodox community,and im not talking about the concept of acting on my desires, im talking about just the simple fact that i ma GAY,frum people in general are known to be prejudice,we all know the terms schvartzas,feiglich,etc. its sad but i guess ill have to either live my life closeted,or open and not in the frum community there is no other option…
Very well-written, Heshy.
Halacha is still Halacha and the Torah is the Torah
If we could justify every discretion and get away with it I am sure we all would.
Ultimately Hashem Created us and gave us the Torah for our good and Hashem knows what is best for us, he created us.
We can not out smart Hashem.
So we can not justify and bend the laws to adjust to our personal agendas, there will be a price for us to pay.
We can admit it is a avera and we are falling short but we can not change or rewrite the Torah .
We can not add or Subtract the Torah is written for all days, not dated.
The Torah, but not necessarily the commentators words..
Sergent J,
I suggest that by your statement you are in fact disbelieving the Torah itself. Does it not say (Parshat Re’ah – sorry that I don’t have exact chapter/verse handy) “v’asisa k’chol asher yorucha” – you shall do as [the Rabbis] teach to you, “Al pi HaTorah asher yorucha….”?
I’m not sure which commentators’ words you are suggesting we ignore…..
Also, how is your assertion relevant here? Why do the commentators come up?
By “commentators”, I mean those who have written about the Torah over the centuries. They are all humans, and sometimes, they can make mistakes. Silly me, I thought it was the Catholics who thought that a human (pope) can be infalliable. Guess it’s Catholics, and the few Jews who think that every rabbinic word is gospel.
Now, don’t get me wrong, not EVERYTHING they write is based on the prejudices of the times and places they lived, but some of it sure as shit sounds like it is.
Skip the generalities and get to specifics if you want to make a point. I’d be interested to hear you go head-to-head with Rashi, or the Rosh, etc.
Commentators go head-to-head with each other all the time, I guess two dissenting opinions must also be correct.
If you have never heard of two different opinions from two different Rabbis one one line of Torah, or of ancient Rabbinic “science” blown out of the water by modern science, then you are living in a cave.
Yes, THEY go head-to-head with each other. YOU do not go head-to-head with them. What value could YOU possibly add to a halachic disagreement between two Torah giants such as Rashi and the Rosh? Know your place, man. You wouldn’t think that a civvie like me should be teaching the army about proper troop formation, why would a simple Jew like you be making judgements about a discussion between the commentators?
And who should I go to to interpret things? Obviously not YOU, since YOU, “anonymous”, do not even exist.
Rabbis of today? Sure, I could, but they are too busy committing felonies, making racist jokes, and molesting children and potential converts to give unbiased looks at anything.
If you do not like me having a different opinion, tough.
I have a face, and I have an opinion, and that is reality. You are anonymous, you have no face, and your thoughts are at best “baaa”. Talk to Phil, he’s the one into the wildlife.
Amusing.
P.S. I’m only “anonymous” because I don’t come here often enough to make picking a screen name worth anything. Is that a problem?
Nope. Hope you enjoyed your trolling.
Well written???
Are you ppl nuts?
I really hate this blog.
If you hate it then why on earth do you read it, much less comment on it?
The thing that gets me is that there is very little understanding or sympathy for gays in the Orthodox world. If you live your life by strict torah guidelines that’s great and people should respect that. But at least try to open your heart and minds just a little and respect the pain and emotional turmoil that people go through. For that, I must give mad props to the YU symposium for opening the discussion.
It’s very similar to anything “foreign” to orthodox Jews, they will rag on it and hate on it even if they don’t know why. How come orthodox Jews are so racist? Wasn’t Moshe Rabeinu Black?
No, he wasn’t. But it’s likely that his wife was.
So what color were their children?
gRay?
his wife was black, he was not.
Y’all no my views on this one. What’s halachically wrong is halachically wrong, end of story. Anyone that tells you it’s OK to act out on gay feelings isn’t a valid rabbininc authority, whether it’s the actual act or only getting to “3rd base”.
As for the ridiculous parade, Hesh is wrong about it not being about running around in freakish clothing. I somehow (unknowingly) ended up in middle of a pride parade about 15 years ago in New Orleans, I even told the person showing me around town “without trying to offend you, I think your city is full of fags…”. I doubt I would have noticed if they were dressed like every days homos instead of those stupid leather caps and pink leotards.
I can’t see how their parades would motivate anyone to feel bad or join them, but that’s just me.
..and the wait is over.
Sarge,
I know you’re starting to enjoy it by now
was wondering when you would chime in. though i strongly disagree with you on many issues- strangely, i look forward reading your posts. it is kind of like watching an accident that is about to happen- you want to look away- but can’t.
Heshy,
Why do you seek out orthodox Jews as racist, your own people?
All major religions oppose homo sexuality it is not only a Orthodox Jewish issue it is a issue society is graveling with for many years.
Talk to Hashem and ask him why he added this discretion to his Holy Torah.
Hashem created you so ask him to help you figure out why you have these feelings and are Orthodox.
This is between you and Hashem not us.
You don’t have to lash out at others you wrote your article and should be open to all responses .
Ultimately it is your life and you have to come to terms with the reality of your struggles.
Am I lashing out?
Orthodox Jews are racist – it’s not an opinion – it’s a fact!
oh please,talk to hashem right,what then hell send out a bas kol saying “i made you gay to serve me” please lets get real here something doesnt make sense,it says in the torah you cant be gay,but then god makes people gay,that doesnt add up,and i know everypone will say its a “nisoyon” whatever im not buying that,hashem makes a set of laws which half i cant even do,because im gay,like getting married,having kids etc. just because hes giving me a nisoyon,but i just had a thought maybe me being gay is a nisoyon for all the straight people,to see how they will treat the people that are gay,will they despise them like people like “phil” or support them like “heshy”….
marty, you could say the same for any commandment. G-d said honor your parents and then he handed me a child abusing father and an absent alcoholic mom. G-d said don’t kill and then made me a bloodthirsty savage. Etc.
Also, some commandments don’t have ramifications that affect everyone – if you’re not living in Israel, the laws of Shmitta, yovel, trumah etc don’t affect you directly. Similar to how the commandment against homosexuality doesn’t really affect straight people’s lives.
actually the homosexuality law does apply to straight people,as for the laws of israel,those ar halachahs of a specific place,while marriage laws arent,as for honor your parents the torah never says you dont have to honor your parents if they abuse you,your still obligated to,unless they make u go against the torah,as for killing the halachah dont kill applies to everyone,because man has a natural desire to kill,but when god says dont touch any woman,because you may have a desire to be with her,that doesnt apply to me whatsoever,its like touching a chair i feel no desire,so the halachah doesnt apply to me in a technical sense,
marty, i have a very strong desire for cheeseburgers, everytime i pass one my mouth salivates, can you please use your reasoning to allow me to get one? thanks
god ive heard that dumb arguement so many times,heres how its different,wanting a cheeseburger is desire to eat a certain type of food,ok so u cant eat,but you can quench the desire to eat by eating something kosher,but someone whos gay how can he quench his desire?? there is no way oher than to be with another guy,Thats how the ridiculous food example is answered its pretty simple really…
nope i have a desire for cheesburgers nothing else, will satisfy me. next time you order pizza and the waiter says were out off pizza and just serves you a hotdog its a food so be happy youll know what i mean. we all have our tavehs, that doesnt make them mutar, be gay all you want but defending it with silly arguments is just sad
Not eating basur v’chalav and abstaining from a basic human desire and need your entire life are two totally different things.
i will defend being gay,because god made me that way,if god made you with an insatiable desire to eat cheeseburgers defend it all you want,what im saying is theres a difference netween sexual desires and food desires,it states in the torah sexual desires is on a different level than any other,a person needs to fulfill his sexual desires to function,you can eat 10 day old bread to function,its not a correct comparison at all…
Marty,
What makes you think I “despise” anyone? Just because I disagree with people tht brag about their perversities? Or because they whine about their situation to everyone else thinking that it gives them a license to do as they please?
What if I told you I had the hots for your granny and couldn’t sleep a wink at night until I got into bed with her? Would you feel bad for me or would you want to kick my butt?
Sleeping with grannies, eating cheeseburgers… People use these comparisons for the sake of argument, but it’s ovious that they aren’t real life things OR a basic human desire and need, as Heshy said. “… ad she tagia limkomo”; this isn’t mekomo by any stretch of the imagination.
I don’t know why people keep using such stupid comparisons when there a perfectly good comparison that is even in the same realm they can use. And that is the fact that men naturally have a proclivity to want to have sex with their wife every day of the month AND men have a natural proclivity to want to have sex with as many women as possible (the whole hundreds of millions of sperm, etc). And that women have an innate desire to have sex with the most powerful men around her to ensure strong offspring. These are basic human desires and needs. And frum people suppress those desires and needs as much as they possibly can.
Frumsatire fan,
When the Torah list all of the above perversities (arayot), it also testifies that the inhabitants of Canaan did ALL of them.
If you don’t think that there are people into incest, bestiality and every other unimaginable fetish, you a gravely mistaken. Internet sites that cater to these individuals make up the the highest percentage of e-commerce today for a good reason: They provide what these sickos are looking for.
actually i would feel bad for you,as for why you despise its the language you use “homos” fags,all those terms is used by someone who despises.
Marty,
I personally find the term gay more offensive. Somebody decided to hijack a synonim of “happy” and now no one else can use that word without it referencing a perversity.
Last time I tried to use it playing with my 11 year old daughter in scrabble, her and friends all blushed and started giggling telling I couldn’t use it because it’s a bad word. Sure enough, a few turns later my daughter ask me if she can use the “F word”.
Absolutely nothing wrong with abbreviating homos*xual into homo, it’s like abbreviating Jewish into Jew. As for fag, it’s as much of a slang word as gay, actually means a small stick (cigarette in the UK).
If you choose to identify yourselves using a hijacked slang word, why I am perceived as a “hater” when I choose to do the same?
oh please you know good and well why you use the term fag and homo,dont come up with some bullshit excuse,advice to you stop wasting your time ranting here,and go teach your daughter not to ask about the fword…
Marty,
See, now you’re judging me all while asking others not to judge you. Doesn’t make much sense.
i give back what i get.
Hesh, I think she’s calling you gay.
If only I were stylish enough
Heshy, like many others, I think you confuse homosexual relationships with homosexual (really, anal) sex.
The Torah does not prohibit same-sex relationships – only the act of anal sex (according to most paskim). So when you write:
“relationships are usually public, people are going find out if you chose to do these things in secret “
I don’t see how this is any different than most heterosexual relationships today. It’s no secret that the many, many self-proclaimed ‘orthodox’ couples do not observe taharat hamishpacha. Nevertheless, we do not TRY to find out if we should exclude them from our communities because of this sin, or otherwise ostracize them generally.
In other words, we don’t ask what’s going on in their bedrooms – we prefer to assume it’s kosher. Why not do the same with people in homosexual relationships?
So you mean to tell me you assume that someone in a serious long term relationship or marriage is not having sex? Please…
Heshy, inside a marriage there is often no sex. On that note, maybe gay marriage will actually solve problems!
Heblish,
Hogwash! Halcha (Rambma, Shulchan Aruch) specifically prohibts kissing or embracing (in a s*xual way) anyone forbidden to them, whether it’s incest, homos, or niddah.
According to Rambam, it’s mide’oraita.
According to Ramban, it’s miderabanan.
Even sleeping under the same blanket is forbidden (from what i recall from the Mishneh)
What the Torah says is one thing.
What the post-Torah halacha says is something very different (and, in the case of homosexuality, a much broader prohibition).
Modern Jews can’t modify the Torah (as Heshy notes) but they can certainly modify halacha (see, e.g., the kosher certifiers’ “War on Leafy Vegetables”).
Heblish,
If a couple doesn’t follow Taharat hamishpacha, they usally don’t make YU symposiums or parade around wearing mikveh towels and blowing whistles about their sins. More than likely, they’ll keep them in the bedroom where they belong.
“I can’t see how their parades would motivate anyone to feel bad or join them, but that’s just me” yup that is just you as brainless and heartless as always…
The parades are not for you – they are for them – so they can finally feel proud and gay, they don’t have to lock themselves up in a closet and lie to everyone they know.
Hesh,
If the parades are for, what the heck are all the straight people doing there? Shouldn’t they confine them to gay areas (districts, bars) only?
Have you seen these gay parties going on along the west side highway on gay pride day in the city. Those people sure know how to party!
Gay people are funny, naked lesbians are hot and flamboyant gays are hilarious – plus they are always giving out free condoms and cool stuff.
being gay is definitly not a good thing. however it doesnt mean we should hate our jewish sisters and brothers, like so many do. if somebody commits a sin such as stealing something or speakign loshan hara we dont hate them so y should we if they are gay?
Ain’t that the truth. The sin is between the sinner and G-d.
very true and it goes a step further,if im gay and i never touch a guy in my life and i tell everyone im gay they will hate me and look down on me,its not about the sin at all,thats just what people like “phil” say to excuse themselves for hating,and being prejudice.
Marty,
Anyone orthodox Jew that claims to be gay when they haven’t touched anybody is either looking for attention, or a complete idiot.
It would be the equivalent of someone declaring themselves as a thief just because they felt like stealing.
your crazy,ive never touched another guy and i know that im 100% gay,are u saying you werent sure you were 100% straight until you touched a woman??
Marty,
What you know and what you tell people are 2 different things. I’m may know someone is really ugly or stupid but I wouldn’t necessarilly tell them.
If you feel gay and have never acted out upon your desires, you’re a tzadik for your restraint, yet, at the same time, I feel you’d be an idiot to come out in the frum community with those feelings. If you feel the need to talk about your situation, you can do so in anonymous support groups, blogs, etc.
I’m not in your shoes, so I can’t tell you what’s right or wrong, it just seems that you have enough dilemmas facing you and can do very well without the biggoted or prejudiced attitudes most of of will inevitably have.
And just because I may have a prejudiced attitude against your lifestyle, it doesn’t mean that I hate you or have anything against you personally.
your right on one point,it doesnt pay to come out in the frum community,because id have to deal with people like you,this is your most sensible post ive seen so far…
Marty,
So basically, the guys that came out at this symposium shouldn’t have done so or were stupid to do so. In other words, you’re finally agreeing with me for a change.
BTW, I’m probably more moderate and tolerant than the majority of really frum Jews, as bad as that may sound.
no they didnwhat they felt was right for them,i dont know maybe it was a good idea for them,but i know for me personally to come out will only cause me harm,its sad but true…
Marty,
I didn’t think you’d actually agreed with me, I just baited you for that one
Seriously speaking though, I don’t feel anyone should come out, or feel they have to come out to, anyone but themselves. God already knows the turmoil you’re going through, and it really isn’t anyone else’s business.
If anyone thinks that coming out will be beneficial to them as opposed to harmful, they might have a reason to do so. But as a frum Jew, their are inevitably going to be dire consequences.
Without trying to make too much satire out of your situation, ever consider going out with a really masculine type butch female just to see what happens? Kind of the opposite of what male prisoners do to their “bitches”.
lol ever considered going out with a nice feminine boy? you know the type that speaks in a high pitchvoice and wears very feminine clothes,use your answer to answer your question.
Marty,
In reply to #80 below, I never considered it as I’m part of the normal population. and it would serve no purpose.
In our case however, if you like dudes yet know it’s wrong to touch one and don’t want to be celibate, a hairy butch type might be better than nothing and the closest you’ll get away with. Possibly make babies too.
I probably sound real insensitive right now as usual…
reply to #81,you dont seem to understand that being gay=0 attraction to ANY female,just like being straight=0 attraction to the same sex,and from your answer it seems you might consider sleeping with a feimine guy if it served a purpose lol,are u sure your not a drop bi?
‘a girl is a girl butch or not,and im gay so no matter how much hair a girl might grow on her legs and talk masculine it wont make me attracted to them,
Marty,
OK, I guess you know yourself well enough. As you’re frum, it looks like a long, hard (pun intended) life of celibacy for you.
reply to #83, i doubt i have the strength and resolve to be celibate….
Marty,
I don’t envy you. Good luck.
As I just tweeted: Could the most compassionate post about the YU symposium on Gays in Orthodoxy be from @FrumSatire? Well said Heshy!
Wow thanks Susanne
Thanks for this post. Just in the interest of venting, the main frustrations for me in how the frum community deals with this issue:
1) I really wish people understood the difference between the prohibition on a specific sexual act and the fact that some people possess this orientation. There are gays and lesbians Jews who are Orthodox (I am one, and I know many) who are very observant and make sure not to break any of the sexual prohibitions. Including people in committed relationships. Believe it or not, not all (even non-Jewish) gay male couples have anal sex. Straight people seem to think this is the case, but gay men know it’s not. In the frum world, that is even more the case. Because straight people are often in the mindset that one particular sex act = the be-all and end-all of sex, they tend to assume that’s true for gay people. It’s not. There is no set way that all gay couples like to have sex. You’d be surprised. We should not be assuming all gay men are engaging in male-on-male anal sex. It’s just not true.
2) It shows how influenced we are by the secular and Christian worlds when frum people lump lesbians and gay men in together. This is a secular idea and not really applicable to halacha / Jewish thought at all, since the halachic issues with lesbian and gay male sexuality are very different. We need to be clear when we’re really talking about anal male-on-male sex (a more accurate description for what is prohibited than “homosexuality” which encompasses lots of other things), when we’re actually talking about homosexual identity in general, and when we’re talking about lesbian identity and lesbian sex. These are all somewhat different halachically speaking.
3) It drives me crazy that I am considered to be “indiscreet” or “flaunting it” by just living my little life as a mitzvah-loving and G-d-fearing frum Jew who is in a relationship with another woman. I don’t announce my relationship any more (in fact I announce it much less) than any frum person. Every frum person advertises their relationship every time they talk about their spouse, shidduchim, weddings, and other simchas. Gay frum people know we have to hide or play down much of our lives when we’re in the frum community and will still get accused of flaunting it. The very fact that I don’t go out of my way to hide it like it’s a shameful skeleton in the closet means that I’m considered by some to be “flaunting my sins” or something. People have no right to assume things about my morals, my sexual activities or my mitzvah observance based on my living a committed and monogamous life with a female partner (also frum).
4) Why all the obsession with homosexuality and with shunning or judging gay people when no one seems nearly as obsessed with alienating or marginalizing all the people who commit other sins? There are lots of people in our communities who are sinning (some by everyone’s standards, some only by some peoples’ standards) and rarely are they ostracized. I think the Lubavitch movement does one thing right – They welcome all Jews (usually in a fairly non-judgmental way) into their shuls and encourage people to take on more mitzvos, even just one. Many elements of the MO community, on the other hand, prefer to judge and ostracize and make things very uncomfortable for anyone who doesn’t conform. Is that what Hashem wants of us as a community? Really? Is that conducive to encouraging a more mitzvo loving and mitzvo observant community?
5) The stupid cheeseburger comparison. People do not usually live lonely and childless lives, get shunned from their religious community and consider or even commit suicide because they want a cheeseburger. I think it’s becoming evident to more and more communal leaders that we must deal with homosexuality with a little extra dose of compassion for the actual reality of how gay orientation (and specifically, how the banning of gay people from having any kind of relationships) impacts peoples’ lives, dignity and yiddishkeit in a way that other inclinations do not. I am glad to see more people caring to try to understand this, because if they do not, the conversation in the frum community about gay folks will never be based in reality or in compassion.
Anon,
Though your post is well written and thoughtful, you seem to have a few facts wrong.
1) All forms of homo intimacy are forbidden, some from the Torah, some from the rabbanan. Just as you can’t eat a cheeseburger according to the Torah, so too, you can’t eat a chicken cheeseburder from the Rabbanan.
2) Anyone openly announcing that they are gay in the frum world, is looking for trouble, just as would anyone announcing that they are into incest (screwing their mom’s) or bestiality. These sins tend to disgust most frummies more than any other category of sins, plain and simple. Don’t ask me why, it just the way it is.
Forcing a pride parade onto Jerusalem is a blatant disregard for the holy atmosphere of the city, and another attempt by the flamboyant homos to rub our the religious world’s nose in their shit.
3) Yes, the refraining from a cheeseburger analogy is kind of silly. Let’s compare s*xual deviants to other s*xual deviants. Should we accept / feel bad for / accomodate people that are strictly into:
a) arayot (incest, bestiality)
b) Doing it ONLY during niddah
c) Marrying children between the age of 3 and 12 (permitted by the Torah, illegal in some countries).
Seemingly, all of the above deviants are in the same boat as homos, and all deserve the same “compassion”.
Would love to read a well thought out argument to this last point…
I’m pretty sure that you’re not allowed to consummate a marriage to a minor before she reaches maturity.
Schwartzie,
You may or may not be right, I ‘d have to look it up and I don’t have the sefer here at my office.
Anyway, let’s assume that this particular individual likes them young. He marries them at 12, and when she hits 18, he marries and additional 12 year old, and keeps doing that over and over again.
The above scenario is perfectly legal according to Torah, and even the Rabbanna until R. Gershom outlawed multiple wives. So, the ashkenaz could do something similar, just has to divorce the next wife every time she hits 18 years old and she’s “too old” for his personal liking, then replace her with a fresh 12 year old.
How many of you would feel bad for this guy if he lives in a civilized country that doesn’t permit him to “live his lifestyle”, even though halacha does?
YU is a frum satire in itself.
Heshy and all others:
A very important post on the matter has just been posted on DovBear.
I suggest taking a look over there.
Why I Don’t Identify as Gay
hes a little in denial.
Is this your way of saying that you don’t like what he said?
no not at all,it just seems like hes in denial thats all.
There are cases in the Talmud where a person is freed of a punishment, even as the act is still prohibited, if the person is under compulsion. However, the Talmud only deals with temporary compulsions and the sages who wrote the Talmud did not know biological sciences like we do today (spontaneous generation has long been disproven). At the very least, this should be taken into account when talking about Halachic abiding homosexuals. On the other hand, this logic could be twisted to justify other forbidden acts like pedophelia (how many Rabbis accused of touching boys have also attacked homosexuality??), but it should be noted that homosexual acts are not psychologically scarring if consensual.
There are instances where homosexual acts are completely unacceptable. It’s no secret that heterosexual males sometimes commit homosexual acts, either for money or b/c there are no females around (prison life is tough)
It is interesting that you describe homosexuality as “one of the worst sins possible” when from a purely halachic standpoint all the nice STRAIGHT jewish boys out there banging their girlfriends on tefilin dates are committing a much greater sin of sleeping with a nidah. People seem to have this visceral hatred and fear of gays to such an extent that they are blinded to the fact some of their own transgressions are in fact far worse than homosexuality.
How do you deduce that it is a much greater sin?
Hi everyone. I can’t believe I missed this stream of blather.
I am an orthodox gay Jew. Most of my friends are orthodox gay Jews. I have no interest in the forbidden act (regardless of Phil’s insistence that all acts are procreated equal). Many or most orthodox gays avoid that act as well. Or at least try to. Rabbinic taboos on all other male acts of intimacy – based on ignorance and fear – have no power here.
I attended the historic YU panel. It was an extraordinary event. Hundreds of young religious Jews turned up to hear for themselves what the eminence grise refuse to talk about, or even recognize. The young men who spoke received standing ovations from their peers. I was shepping such nachas. Kudos to YU and the brave, adorable young men who poured out their hearts and souls to people who actually gave a damn for a change and not the robots and zombies that make up so much of orthodox Jewry.
What a well written article. Thank you.
here is an amazing documentary about this topic,it is from achristian point of view but it applies to judiasm too,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AVRslVRbY
explains a lot!
just finished watching this. very well done and informative.
A wonderful post, and one that I would like to take a step further. As you write,” Telling someone they cannot get married or find true love is really tough.” Indeed. As such, I am proposing we also make room for incest.
Obviously genetic complications arise when brothers and sisters involve themselves in an incestuous relationship. However, same sex incest, to me at least, should be brought to the table and discussed. Of course, I am not by any means proposing we alter Halacha, yet it is important that we, at the very least, hold a symposium where Orthodox Jews who seek to commit themselves to same sex incestuous relationships be allowed to give voice to their struggle for acceptance. Understandably, certain people have certain attractions and desires, and if a man finds their true love and wishes to spend the rest of their life with this person and create “families filled with wonderful children” far be it for me to say he can’t just because his true love also happens to be his brother.
Another idiot with access to a keyboard.
Or should I say another closet case with access to a keyboard?
Avrumy,
So now Frankist is an idiot or a closet case while the symposium and it’s participants should be praised?
What if a guy from PETA find’s true love with “man’s best friend”?
Phil,
How does that concern you, unless you had eyes on the poodle first?
This entire topic doesn’t concern me, nor does it concern most of the readers of this blog. Whatever the geniuses at the YU symposium decided or will decide, doesn’t change Judaism, halacha or my lifestyle in any way, shape or form.
As for the dog, I prefer Eskimo dogs, they have the most beautiful blue eyes
I knew that deep down you were a romantic.
Wait, seriously, I’m the idiot? Why is this is so far fetched? Why would a symposium on incest be different from the gay acceptance gala they just held at YU?