“The enormous Chillul Hashem reported in Sunday’s New York Post 
is almost without precedent in thousands of years of Jewish history.” As quoted by Vos Iz Neias about Rabbi Leib Tropper sex tape scandal.
It seems to me and you all can correct me if I am wrong, that not talking about something such as Leib Tropper is a bigger chillul Hashem. Since when is an article stating facts as per recorded on tape a chillul Hashem. Sure it makes frum Jews look bad, but covering things up and letting these so called community leaders and rabbis deal with them hasn’t really helped much.
Unfortunately, this year, our community has seen a huge amount of chillul Hashem, we have the kidney rabbis, Rubashkin, Madoff and countless other minor fraud and sexual abuse cases scattered around, not to mention the huge chillul Hashem sponsored by the shabbos riots in Israel over the parking lot and Intel. So is talking about these things, in a public forum a chillul Hashem?
Go back a few years and count the numerous scandals that have been shoved under the rug until they were leaked and made even worse by the media creating a bigger chillul Hashem.
Go take a gander at articles on Vos Iz Nieas and Yeshiva World News whenever someone in the frum community (not chabad or modern orthodox of course) is accused of anything. The readers deny it and ask for proof and just wont believe that a suppposedly “frum” or “heimishe” yid would take part in something so gruesome. I think it’s time these people wake up and begin to talk as much as possible about things in a public forum, to me it seems like one more deterant to the people who participate in these crimes against the people.
I myself wish this Leib Tropper thing would blow over, because there is much to talk about, but I feel the need to do this and these discussions always produce some interesting halachic discussions.
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{ 54 comments… read them below or add one }
Heshy, I think you’ve got the conundrum nailed. We live in an unprecedented age of information flow and yet, the orthodox among us know that there is a concept of TMI – information that should NOT be flowing – rechilus, lashon harah and chilul Hashem. While the secular world is focused on Tiger Woods and his sex life, it’s so much more serious when we are exposing allegations of our Rabbis – supposed tzadikim we are supposed to revere and respect. The Torah gives us guidelines for judging people. We are supposed to judge every man according to his merit. And at the same time, Moshe was told to appoint Shoftim – judges – to uphold the law. So here we are in Galut with no Sanhedrin – Bet Dins that have no real authority – and some of the most repulsive SHMUTZ flowing via open channels of the Internet, exposing people who appear to have done horrible things, not just to us, but to all of the nations. A part of me wants to just run away, throw up, close my eyes and plug up my ears. Another part of me says, “listen and learn – no matter how wise and learned you are or become, the Yetzer Hora will be just a heartbeat away, ready to bring you down.” An awful and awesome lesson – none of us are beyond reproach or impervious to sin. Not me, not you, not our greatest Rabbanim.
Important question Heshy.
While sweeping things under the rug is naive
and dangerous, I think you can make a case for
taking care of business in a quiet dignified way.
If a Rabbi is found out to be a total douche bag,
you can force him to leave his post without going public.
If he is a sexual predator, pedophile, etc. than of course
you have to be concerned with the safety of the community
and the community needs to be informed.
In my opinion, Tropper could have been squashed
in quietly, privately. Someone was out to nail this guy-just
listen to the tapes.
People love to see Rabbis publicly humiliated.
It’s sick. As stated before, in some cases you can
bring about the same result in a quiet and dignified way.
the kidney rabbis
Was there a city in Eastern Europe named “Kidney”?
Tropper is the source of this chillul hashem, not you. All he had to do was keep it in his pants and there would be no problem.
i think u are misreading the quote. the chillul hashem is ref. to tropper not the publication of the information…
It’s nice to see that he had the blessings of his wife… I begin to wonder how many more women were involved with him? Or men… that would be funny!
My guess is it likely falls under Lashon Hara, though you aren’t actually talking about him, you’re blogging. Possibly worse, as you have hundreds of viewers, possibly thousands.
As for Chilul Hashem, Tropper caused the huge Chilul Hashem if he’s guilty, so do people that sweep it under the carpet as well as people that blog about it. Either way, it’s a lose-lose situation for everyone.
I’m not misreading it, just sounding my opinion.
I don’t know if it’s right or wrong to talk abut it, but I find it interesting that you say “Or should we let it be shoved under the rug so it can happen again”. Publicizing scandals would stop them, just like it does with all the new sex scandals we hear about every other week with politicians.
Phil,
“it likely falls under Lashon Hara”
thats pathetic.
If anything, we SHOULD talk about it as much as possible to learn from it and hopefully avoid such digraceful things in the future.
Bankman,
Lashon Hara is defined as speaking negatively about something someone actually did. If it wasn’t true, it falls under motzi shem ra instead. Assuming this story is true, it seems to me that it would fall under lashon hara, unless blogging isn’t considred as talking. Check with a rabbi if you want to be sure.
As far as your bright idea of talking about it to “hopefully avoid such digraceful things in the future”, how is Hesh’s blog going to make sure this never happens again? Will all pervert rabbis suddenly become moral because of this post? Will all naive women suddenly become wise due to FrumSatire?
Give me a break!
Bankman,
If someone relates a bad thing someone else did to a 3rd person, it’s lashoan hara. If the strory wasn’t true, it’s motzi shem ra. In this case, no one said anything as posting to a blog isn’t speaking, however it might be a lot worse due to the hundreds of viewers the blog gets.
Yes, we are commanded to let people know if someone is a theif so they shouldn’t be robbed by him. But once that isn’t likely to happen anymore, let’s say Madoff for example, blogging about it isn’t going to stop anyone from placing a new investment with him as no one would.
I would love for you to explain how blogging about it will prevent Tropper from sinning again, or how it will prevent the Texan babe from being naive.
The issue is hochacha. Rambam says that if someone sins against hashem, ( gilui arayot, hillul hashem ) and doesn’t repent after being privately reprimanded then you embarrass and curse them publicly.
The question is. 1. Is it true. 2. was he reprimanded privately.
There’s no way this is lashon harah, since it’s public knowledge. It could be motzai shem ra if it’s not true.
Considering the audio tapes and his resignation I would tend to lean towards true.
MadMax,
I don’t think Tropper is going to take any hochacha from Hesh or his blog, so that’s definitely out.
The Rambam is speaking of the leaders of Beit din cursing reprimanding an unrepentent sinner in public, not a bunch of bored gossipers blogging about it behind his back.
As far as the public already knowing, I for one, never heard of tropper until I read this post and even thought the story was one of Hesh’s jokes. How many others were in the same boat as me? How many then forwarded the story to a third party?
If that’s not called spreading Lashon hara, what is?
I agree with The Law. VIN was referring to the revelations being a chillul Hashem, not the fact the Post reported it.
Argh! I totally wish I could get Youtube at work!
“My friend started an organization called ORA – organization for the resolution of Agunot, which tries to get men who refuse to give gets (ritual divorce document) to give them. He told me that no rabbi right wing of the rabonom at Yeshiva University would sponsor their group for fear of making a chillul Hashem, they do not support public protests and so on and think the system can work itself out.”
I used to be in favor of organizations that try to help agunot, but since meeting some of these women, I’ve lost a lot enthusiasm. If people were more honest, it would be easier to support an organization that would protest publicly and find other ways to embarrass a guy who refuses to ritually divorce his wife. I was involved in a case where the wife made up lies and got an organization involved to publicly demonstrate against a guy. Meanwhile this guy had every intention to ritually divorce his wife, and the couple and their lawyers knew it. All her lies served to do was embarrass the guy and make the organization that she involved look like idiots.
I’ve been told by divorce lawyers that more then 80% of the time the wife will accuse the husband of being a sexual deviant and more then 60% of the time the husband will accuse the wife of being a “bad mother”! With these kinds of lies and accusations, outside organizations have to be very careful before getting involved or they risk being cast as supporting a liar.
When you say is talking about it a Hillul HaShem, what you really mean is are we violating the laws of Lashon Harah, or more specifically, the commandment not to embarrass our fellow Jew in public. First, I’m an am haaretz and not a scholar by any means.
However, from what I’ve read of the Mishneh Torah,
once something has been aired publicly in front of 3 people, then further talk of it is no longer considered lashon harah ( as far as I understand. )
Second, it would seem if this is true, then there is a hillul HaShem here. One definition of Hillul HaShem according to the Rambam is when a Talmid Chacham or Rabbi conducts themselves in a boorish manner. Rambam spends entire chapters on how Talmidim Chachamim and Rabbis should conduct themselves.
See here for some examples: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/1105n.htm#14
and also here: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/1205n.htm
It’s also a commandment from the torah to reprimand him, first privately, and then if he doesn’t listen publicly for averot against G-d. Sleeping with a goy is gilui arayot and would require a public condemnation if private reprimand didn’t cause him to repent sincerely.
Specifically Rambam says to publicly publish his sin and shame him and curse him. And this is the obligation of every G-d fearing Jew.
Why don’t you ask a competent halachic authority.
none exists
He tried to call one, but by the time he finally gets through, the guys keep ending up in hot waster….
The term chillul hashem is unbelievably pompous. Frum people have to stop equating themselves with god. Stop saying ” a disgrace to god’s name” when you REALLY mean “a disgrace of us and our community.”
That’s the truth! Many of these guys get away with things so long for this very reason.
My understanding of Loshon Hora says that once three people know about it, it ‘has a voice’ and can now be talked about openly.
Also, there are exceptions to the Loshon Hora rule:
1. For a good purpose such as business. ‘
Example: if Bob stole from the cash register, then you must tell that to his prospective employer.
2. If no intent to malign is included.
Example: If I imply that it was *wrong* for Moshe not to have relations with his wife, that’s Loshon Hora. If I teach that Moshe didn’t have relations with his wife as a matter of fact, without judgment, that’s not.
(it was because Moshe was so close to G-d at that time period.)
In the Rav Tropper case, there is a lady who converted, lost her status as a Jew strictly because of Rav Tropper’s judgment. She and her children now live as non-Jews.
A. If she had a kosher conversion, she’s Jewish. Why didn’t anyone stand up for her over the last three years? If a Jewish born lady and her children were declared ‘not Jewish’ surely at least one Rav would stand up for them!
The information was gathered from her husband over the phone without Rav Tropper ever talking to the convert.
What kind of procedure is that???
A sweet talking, complaining SPOUSE
I know. Regarding that case, I always say if nothing else, he’s admitting he really can’t judge if someone is ready to convert or not.
A third exception has to be someone who is trying to wrest great power unjustly and corruptly. Otherwise it would have been lashon hara to speak against Shabtai Zvi!
(oops, hit the wrong button)
A sweet talking, complaining SPOUSE is enough of a witness to remove the Jewish status of an off-the-derech wife and children?
Only if they are converts.
Where was the outrage, the outcry?
I don’t care about the pants lady so much as what this does to the institution of conversions. Every convert out there, and their children, should be outraged that nobody stood up for the *position* of the convert. You can’t do that to a Jewish born Jew, but not a peep if the “Jew” is convert or children of a convert.
What about now?
Now that we see what Rav Tropper’s motives are, is anybody properly concluding that the man had a problem with his judgment regarding female convert candidates? Has anybody declared that the woman is *still* Jewish, regardless of her loss of interest?
Why might she have lost interest?
Well, after all, her husband is the kind of husband who calls the conversion Rosh from another city, complains that she’s not frum enough, and manages to get a p’sok reversing her conversion, all over the phone and all without the Rosh speaking to the embarrassed convert.
Last time I checked, there’s a whole procedure on who can remove who’s Jewish status, and this doesn’t follow any of those rules at all.
So is it ‘Loshon Hora’?
Or is it a concern that the Torah *might* be true and therefore we can’t allow it to tank. If we ignore the Torah’s value of loving the convert, we ignore the Torah.
Instead of loving this convert as we should have done, we let her float away via a complete disregard for any propriety in how to revoke a Jewish status.
Now that we discover strong evidence that the Rav has a personal problem, which has become a horrible abuse of harassment power (modern morality has deemed that you can’t have consensual sex with a slave because the slave is under pressure the rest of the week. So, too, by a boss / worker relationship. Modern morality has surpassed Jewish morality if Yiddishkeit can not learn from this moral point. It’s morally wrong for a boss to date his or her worker. It’s inappropriate pressure. You have to quit being the boss, otherwise it’s the immorality of sexual harassment (a vague and ambiguous term).
Here, we had a conversion rabbi trading quid pro quo a conversion for sexual favors.
Did it occur to anyone that he wanted this woman to ‘go away’ because she might have something horrible to tell?
WHY ISN’T THAT OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE???
Well, we just don’t care, she and her children are not really Jewish, they only converted, so they’re not one of us.
Love the convert?
We failed on that mitzvah d’orrissa. We failed them all.
It’s when you let one part of the Torah tank that the rest is sure to follow.
Or, let’s get our act together.
What’s the problem?
Rav Tropper actually was correct in trying to standardize conversions.
But one minor error, one problem to be corrected:
The problem is the absolute power one rabbi can have over another human being, without any over-sight.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Let’s fix this, let’s take away the bargaining power any one rabbi can have over GOYIM. These goyim aren’t the riff raff scum of the earth. They’re trying to be one of us. Pure neshomas, waiting to be born.
Now we see that a Rav has been eating them for lunch.
Somebody’s got to do something.
It’s got to come from the leadership institutions.
They’ve got to, themselves, curb this individual power, there’s got to be some sort of check, some sort of outlet, some alternate option for the convert candidate.
Otherwise, Rav Tropper is correct. By virtue of the ‘R’ in front of his name, he’s been given the right to trade conversions for his own personal rape fantasies, via the pressure of someone wanting to SERVE G-D AS A JEW.
If the institution of respect for the rabbis translates to such absolute power, and we leave it that way, then Rav Tropper is correct, he can use his power any way he wishes.
His only error was in getting caught.
Respectfully submitted.
Wowzers! Nailed it.
I agree with the wowsers, nailed it. Unfortunately, though, the rabbis don’t care and other rabbis are still doing stuff like what he did.
Why do my posts keep failing to appear?
what I don get it is: why?
I mean, he could have ordered a hooker and that’s all. why put the career, personal life and business in jeopardy for so little (a few minutes of sex)?
I propose this comment for the prize of the funniest/most outlandish comment:
60
“This is all loshon horah against a big tzadik and talmid chacham. And while some of you feminists may find it upsetting, even if these allegations were true, he did nothing wrong under halacha because this woman wasn’t married.”
I guess that commenter thinks it’s permissible to get it on with 2 women at the same time:-)
Nothing wrong under halacha, my ass!
Sex with a goy is gilui arayot, so if it’s true then yes, he did do something wrong.
“he could have ordered a hooker and that’s all. ”
If you listen to the tapes, you will notice that he does not like the concept of paying for sex…
He prefers to exploit women rather than pay them.
It should be obvious, upon reflection, that the more that is pushed under the rug the more chance of a cataclysmic explosion occurring later on.
Besides, doesn’t Scripture report on the shortcomings of EVEN its heroes?
It should be obvious, upon reflection, that the more that is pushed under the rug the more chance of a cataclysmic explosion occurring later on.
So Joseph, have YOU reflected yet on what is under your rug?
Actually Scripture – interpreted by rabbis – likes to see everyone as holier than you and me.. I’ve had classes where David didn’t do anything wrong with Batsheva… or Yehuda with Tamar… all for the sake of the Messiah coming from murky depths… the good thing about Jews is we get our carpets wholesale…
What you refer to is actually interpretation of Scripture’s account. For example, according to the plain meaning of the text, David sinned with BathSheba. According to various hints (e.g. that her husband rebelled against the king and was therefore deserving to be killed) and of what we know of Jewish Law (e.g. that every soldier gave his wife a ‘get’ before going to battle and that a rebeller deserves execution), plus plain old common sense (e.g. had David had really committed adultery there is no way that his writings would be included in Scripture for all eternity, plus the fact that we clearly see from Nathan’s rebuke that it was a punishment between him and G-d only and not between him and the husband (which normally adultery would result in). End result: G-d considered a gave sin only because David had personal benefit out of Mr. Bathsheba’s execution and how it appeared to outsiders.
The whole issue of Loshon Horah is a distraction and besides the point. Do we have to be concerned about Loshon Horah? Yes. Should this be our primary concern here? Absolutely not. If somebody tells you that a fire has been started and there is a burning building you go in and save the people you don’t worry about Loshon Horah. Our collective orthodox jewish house is on fire. The fact that people like Leib Tropper and other abusers have been allowed to ravage our institutions unimpeded is a fire that is consuming our community. Our only concern is to should be to put that fire out and nothing else. The Loshon Horah issue one of the many misguided distortions used to protect and perpetuate the worst kind of behavior in our community. We need to grow up and deal with the unpleasantness like mature adults and stop burying our heads in the sand.
Its sad but not surprising when these things come out. At the end of the day we are all human and suffer from the same weaknesses and desires as the rest of humanity and even a lifetime of Torah study doesnt seem to eliminate that. My thinking is that we as Jews are not “better” for having received Torah, but we are definitely more fortunate for it.
Heshy, it appears that the article written on VIN by Yair Hoffman was talking about Tropper, not the Lashon Hara. Just look at the follow up post by Hoffman today. These scandals (you forgot to include the Spinka Rebbe going to jail for 2 years) are good examples of how NOT to act and what happens if you break the law. Keep talking about them until something is done.
maybe it will come to light he was a swinger to with some kolel guys…..too
The whole thing makes me sick, i am better off thinking everyone that i meet with a black hat & beikishe is a tzaddik…. these matters should be be dealt with privately but firmly. i don’t want goyim to ever say that frum yidden are hypocrites with beards. i think that that is the most important aspect of all this. the rabbi should be dealt with but privately for the sake of all yiddishkeit. people think that is not a real reason but it is. poeple fall a sleep to the fact that goyim wioll always be at aught with jews. and antisemitism will rise its sleeping head adventually, and its already starting to in europe, even in the form of antizionism… yidden are not perfect, but we do not need to give any goyim that mean harm ammo for propaganda…
forget goyim we dont need apikoros reform yidden to start pumping their bullshit propoganda, and lead other yids off the derech
From what I’ve read, she said these tapes where only supposed to go to a couple of Rabbanim and not to be public, and she requested a number of sites to take them down. It sounds like either the Rabbanim leaked them as Chochacha or maybe Mr. Billionaire got ahold of them somehow. It’s pretty obvious though that this woman didn’t want these things to go public.
Yes, he SHOULD be dealt with privately, but recent history has shown over and over that this simply is not happening. Privately, nothing is done because even a minor response “Might let the goyim in on issues in the community”. Privately, it is hidden.
I think we all need to be Dan L’Kaf Zanus
LOL!
My understanding is that when it comes to a talmid chachom we are required to give the benefit of the doubt. Having said that here are some possibilities of what happened:
R’ Tropper was held at gunpoint and given a script to say. It is obvious that in that case he is required to speak rather than lose his life.
Even if R’ Tropper did take action with the woman, we can dan l’kaf zechus him that it was with the consent of his wife.
(Even if she was Jewish, it could be she was tovel in a mikvah and the nida issue was not an issue. )
Even if it wasn’t with her consent a man is technically allowed to have more than one wife (Our Avos, other men leading up even to this past century). Surely there are men in other countries who have numerous wives today. We are conditioned by American culture to think that if a man has more than one ‘wife/partner’ he is considered to be a cheater, etc.
Being with a goya is not giluy arayos and there is no chiyuv kares for doing so.
I challenge anyone else to come up with more ideas of what could’ve actually occured. (See “The Other Side of the Story” by Yehudis Samet). Hatzlacha.
Dear Joe,
According to Rambam having sex with a goy is giluy arayot. Specifically he lists it as one of the written d’oryta prohibitions in the Taryag ( 613 ).
Now you could say maybe he gave her a secret conversion and was just waiting to go to the bet din to make it official, but even in that case there are issues. Again according Rambam it is a d’oryta commandment to only have sex with a Jewish woman after marrying her. He basically holds that pil egesh is d’oryta forbidden.
Now if Tropper holds by a different authority which permits pil egesh and the woman secretly toveled and converted – then him having sex with her would not be an issue.
However, there’s no way to get around the issue of him being a Masit for trying to pimp her out to “the Satmar” or his other Jewish pals. Whether or not the woman secretly converted he would be inciting to giluy arayot since if she’s goy it’s forbidden or if she Jewish and Tropper’s pil egesh she’s eshet ish which is also inciting to giluy arayot.
Whatever way you look at it this is some pretty messed up shit.
I think all of you are totally missing the point. The question we should always be asking ourselves is, “Will what I am about to do be a kiddush (sanctifying the name of ) Hashem or a chillul ( desecrating the name of) Hashem?” Rav Shimon Schwab, ztl defines Chillul Hashem for us in an excellent article I saw posted on dailyhalacha.com: “The second sentence of the Sh’ma Yisroel begins with the command: “You shall love Hashem”, which is interpreted by our Sages: “Let the name of Hashem become beloved through you.” In other words, we are supposed to lead the kind of exemplary life whcih would contribute to the universal adoration of G-d and which would, in turnm, enhance the glory and lustre of the Torah, adding respect for the dignity of the Jewish people as a Kindom of Priests and a Holy Nation.” The rest of the article is too long to quote here, but I think you all get the message. Do you think that by discussing this alleged incident regarding Rabbi Tropper is a kiddush Hashem or a chillul Hashem? Will Hashem be more beloved in the world, and the lustre and glory of the Torah enhanced by your doing so? Whatever Rabbi Tropper did or did not do will not change. However the power of chillul Hashem or kiddush Hashem, moving forward is certainly in our hands. Choose well.
who ever believes lashon hara about a talmid chacham loses his share in the world to come.
the question isn’t one of evidence or anything else, you aren’t allowed to believe it, and you certainly aren’t allowed to spread it.
Hmm, who wrote that? A “Talmid Chacham, perhaps?”.
If it was up to the Sarahs of this world evil would flourish like mushrooms after a summer rain.