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Rabbi Leib Tropper – finally a frum scandal involving sex

rabbi leib tropperFor all of you who don’t keep up on your daily frum community gossip columns Rabbi Leib Tropper is involved in the latest scandal to hit the frum world. Unlike the countless other scandals involving so called “frum” people, this one is actually exciting, as you guessed it involves money, you cannot have a frum scandal without money but this time it involves Sex, that’s right folks, a scandal involving sex, bribery and fraud – what could be better?

Apparently Leib Tropper who was the president of the group EJF –Eternal Jewish Family, forced a woman whom he was overseeing her conversion to do sexual favors for him. I know it sounds crazy, and when I heard that it was posted on Failed Messiah, I figured it must be some sort of tirade against orthodoxy, but it isn’t, this time there is actual proof and it doesn’t help his case that he resigned his position as the story broke.

Now normally I don’t talk much about scandals, the kidney thing wasn’t that funny and the Madoff thing was money and even Rubashkin was kind of boring in my mind, but having sex with your Rabbi is kind of funny, especially when you’re doing it in order to convert.

How did she get tapes? Will these be like the Paris Hilton Tapes? Those texas girls are kind of hot.

I have read up on the investigation, facts and allegations – and the following information was posted on the Dov Bear Blog, which to me is one of the easiest to read, comment on and sort through because it just lays it all out for ya.

Absolute facts:

— In 2006 Leib Tropper revoked a woman’s conversion because of a breach of strict halachic tznius rules.
— In October 2009 Leib Tropper was sued by a billionaire Israeli for allegedly misappropriating 1 million dollars.
— In mid-December 2009 Leib Tropper resigned from his leadership role at EJF
— Pashkvelin in Israel, this month,  denounced Leib Tropper as a Zimri playing like a Pinchas.

Facts Supported by strong circumstantial evidence:

— A woman who identifies herself as Shannon Orand, recorded a number of conversations between herself and  a man who sounds like Leib Tropper and has intimate information about Leib Tropper’s associates and family.
— In the audio recording, Tropper speaks of a sexual relationship with the woman as well as setting her up for phone sex and actual sex acts with men identified only as “Amir” and the “Satmar guy.”
— Money is passing hands, although it is not clear if the funds were used as a quid pro quo for sex.

Information provided by Shmarya at FailedMessiah after a conversation with the woman (whom he does not identify):
— The audio was leaked and was not supposed to end up in the hands of bloggers and mainstream media.
— One of Shmarya’s sources for the audio was the billionaire Israeli.
— There were other women that were part of the sexual activities.
— The woman claims that Tropper was using her for sex and in return he was going to provide her with a conversion.

Investigative Reporting:

— The woman on the audio is from Texas. There is a Shannon Orand listed in Houston Texas. Her address is near the frum neighborhood.
— Ms. Orand claims on her Myspace page that she was raised Catholic and is now Jewish. This implies she has already converted.
— Ms. Orand has not logged into her Myspace account since August 2009.
— Ms. Orand had a Facebook account (which is still visible in google results if you click “cached”) it has been since deleted.

Pure Speculation / Food For Thought:

— If Ms. Orand had already converted why was she converting again? Was it a set-up? Or was she really converting (again)?
— A man with the means of the slighted billionaire Israeli could very well have orchestrated the demise of his nemesis by playing to Tropper’s weaknesses with an elaborate set-up.
— By recording conversations in which the woman admits to sexual activity with a married man and potential sexual activity with others, we can infer that there was a huge interest on her part to expose Tropper and indict herself.
— The things Tropper did would still be inexcusable but they shed new light on his predicament.
— Don’t mess with billionaires.

Sources:

Wikipedia, Google, Whitepages.com, FailedMessiah, my sechel and sparse free time.

Dov Bear has also informed us that this story is going to a biggie in the New York Times – now what do I have to do to make it big. Oh and as expected Vos Iz Neias and Yeshiva World News have not made one mention of this – even though they beat the Rubashkin thing like a dead horse – is it possible that they have an aversion to Rabbis and sex – although they do seem to be touting the nude bike lane protest news quite a bit these days.

Comments on this entry are closed.

  • Phil

    Are you sure this story is true? DovBear’s special report by Kermit T. Frog???

    • Well considering the fact that the Jewish Week, JTA, and a slew of blogs and other media outlets has broken this story I would venture to say yes. I just liked how Dov Bear organized the information in an easy to read manner.

  • Phil

    Just when you thought you’d seen it all… The pimp Rabbi that uses conversions as the bonus. What a story.

  • Former Baltimorean

    Being that this woman converted, I assume that she believes in the concept of heaven. This therefore adds a whole new twist to the saying ‘sleeping your way to the top’!!

  • GiyoresToBe

    I hang out on a few different conversion communities. Even though none of us have heard the audio, we did read the key phrase that she claims he said: “If you fulfill my needs, I’ll fulfill yours – and you need a conversion.” Frankly, assuming that the billionaire-plot thing isn’t true, and she is a legitimate convert/convert-to-be, that sentence singlehandedly makes it a lot easier to sympathize with the girl. The Rabbi who converts you has massive sway over you at an emotionally vulenrable moment of your life, and since Tropper is a “my way or the highway” sort of Rabbi, she may have been convinced that EJF was the only way to get a halachic conversion.

    • Well apparently Tropper nullified a whole slew of conversions that didn’t meet his standards and he was also partially responsible for the cherem and banning of the Natan Slifkin books.

      • Apparently he nullified a conversion because a woman was wearing pants. That must be too tznius for him!!

        • Sergeant J

          Yeah, or just too difficult for him to take off her. The conversion system is plagued with enough issues, it was only a matter of time before such corruption became known.

      • GiyoresToBe

        Oh, I know. I’ve never been a fan of Tropper, because two things truly determine a split in ‘movement’: once one section stops recognizing the rabbis and the converts of the other. He was really pushing to stop recognizing certain rabbis (Slifkin, who went to Ohr Somayach for the love of all things), and converts (i.e. anyone not converted by Haredi auspices, lest the converts have a rabbi on the beis din who didn’t believe in a literally earth age of 5770). He’s been pretty self-serving in his halachic judgments–he insists that all Jews must obey the pasuks of the Gadol of their generation–who he judged to be R. Elyashiv, who, surprise! signed onto the Slifkin book ban.

        It made me really worried that he’d wind up being the push that wound up, 10-20 years down the road, with Modern Orthodox becoming a separate movement, like Conservative, and me having to re-do my conversion Haredi-style to make sure everyone recognizes my future kids as Jewish. He really was pushing ‘my way or the highway,’ and as a convert, that’s freaking terrifying. (Yes, I’ve kept my eye on Tropper for awhile).

        • MadMaxInJerusalem

          And if I hold that the Gadol HaDor is Rav Kapach, or Rav Ovadia Yosef? I hate to say it, but most of the worlds torah observant Jews are Sephardic, and we don’t speak Vous Vous!

  • What an asshole. It should be enough for anyone to revoke their Jewish-ness.

    • Former Baltimorean

      Not that I think that the ‘system’ is perfect, but just because one person acted inappropriately, why does that make or break what Judaisim stands for?

      • What? You don’t think the system is perfect?! KEFIRAH!!!!!

        • Former Baltimorean

          LOL, where have I heard this one before, lol

          • Well I am a firm believer in the line “don’t judge Judaism by the Jews”

            • Former Baltimorean

              Elaborate Hesh

              • I have met many people that have gone off the derech or refuse to have anything to do with religious people based on one experience or something they heard about. This is no better than hating all black people because you happened to get mugged by a black guy once. Same thing, but constantly I hear of people who are so anti-orthodoxy based on one experience and it sickens me – but it also helps me realize that everything we do can have a profound effect and it shows from the most whacked out emails I get.

                The point is that, just because ultra orthodox Jews think they are correct in their practice of Judaism and they piss you off doesn’t give you a good reason to hate all orthodox Jews. The problem is that many people are quick to judge a whole group based on a very small minority sometimes.

                Just look at the gay community, anti-gay people will constantly deride them for flaunting their queerness in parades, but I think the flamboyant gay community is much smaller albeit more vocal than many people think. Most gays and lesbians and regular people, they just want to live in peace with the same rights as everyone else.

                Unfortunately, most non-observant Jews and non-Jews judge the entire orthodox community on groups like Niturei Karta – they have beards and coats they must be the spokespeople for orthodoxy.

                Not sure if that made sense

                • Hesh, I don’t think you’re being fair. You say “I have met many people that have gone off the derech or refuse to have anything to do with religious people based on one experience or something they heard about” and “constantly I hear of people who are so anti-orthodoxy based on one experience and it sickens me .” I really don’t think anyone goes off for “one” reason. Usually, there are many, and it’s generally a highly sensitive subject for those who have left, or those who are still on. I think if it was a simple one-time experience, I think it would be a lot easier to discuss. Personally, I have three million and one reasons why I left (and I am sure most others who have left do so as well), and saying that it generally boils down to one experience is a gross oversimplification and delegitimization of others’ life choices.

                  Also, even if I did have major problems with Judaism and a religion, where does that give you basis to conclude I hate all, or even any, Jews? Say I hate the religion or even some of its practitioners. Do you really think I would need to jump from there to hating ALL Jews? I mean come on. Do you really think I hate my three year-old nephew because he happens to be Orthodox? Please. I may have strong disagreements with Orthodox theology and even Orthodox people. But that DOES NOT MEAN I HATE ANYBODY!!! Thank you.

                  >Unfortunately, most non-observant Jews and non-Jews judge the entire orthodox community on groups like Niturei Karta

                  Please. That’s ridiculous. Neturei Karta is a complete red herring because they are also insane politically. Maybe you could say all us “haters” think of you all as Satmar or something. But I think you know that even that is a gross oversimplification and simply false (ironically, as I come from a UO background, I probably have more respect for those types than the MO types, so that assertion may be more a reflection of your biases and personal religious preferences than reality).

                  Obviously, this whole discussion (which I haven’t really gotten into) is very complicated and highly emotionally-charged. My point is that if you want to take credit for the good the frum world does, you have to own up for the bad it does too. There is something hypocritical about priding yourself on the successes of frum Jews and disowning those who give you a bad name. You’re either family, or you aren’t. Second of all, even if you’re correct that Judaism shouldn’t be judged by the Jews, what is it about? Assuming behavior is no longer relevant (throw out all the books of maaseh tzadikim as well) what IS it about? And *how* do you know that??? What does it teach and why is it necessary or relevant in a modern time when most morals are anyway universal, and being frum usually boils down to man-to-God relationships (kosher, tefilla, etc) and cholent. And given that we know frum people often have a horrible record when it comes to things like judgmentalism and racism, maybe it’s a waste of time? That the little that it claims to do it doesn’t do, and other than providing a sense of community to members (not unlike a cult) it is absolutely worthless? Those are questions that maybe need addressing.

                  • Dude you did not understand what I wrote – I said many people I have met – that doesn’t mean all – I personally think that orthodox Judaism is not for everyone, I don’t think everyone born into it is right for it and I have nothing against anyone that leaves the path at all – besides they are a big chunk of the readers here and I bless them for that.

                    You are correct – frummies are racist and judgmental – almost across the board in large communities.

                    I don’t want to take any credit for what the frum world does because it seems that all the credit is due to the non-frum world, don’t get me started on the frum communities inability to realize that they are but a small part of the Jewish community at large.

                    • I’m just saying do you really know ANY people who left because of ONE incident? You know anyone that would say,”hey, I loved being frum. Everything was hunky-dory, life was a bed of roses. Then one thing happened, so I ran away!” Really?

                  • Beard Face

                    Well said I agree!

                • Dave

                  I don’t think you should judge the frum community by one incident anymore than you should judge all Blacks or any minority by one incident, but there is a difference. People are emotionally invested to their religion and community, so these single incidents are a lot more affective. Learning that the man you looked up to and went to for advice on Torah is actually laundering money or doing what Rabbi Tropper did would have a larger affect than if he was say just some guy you knew who happened to be Jewish or black or gay. At least, thats for the people who’ve gone off the derech. Can’t really say the same for less observant Jews and the goyim.

                  • Nope – they say it was one incident but now that I think of it I am sure it was more than one.

            • quasieditor

              true.
              a religion with an infallible deity practiced by fallible humans

  • susitna

    It wouldn’t be the first time that a person converted twice. It’s actually more common than you’d think. Some people start off converting Reform or Conservative, but if they want the conversion recognized by the Orthodox community they have to re-convert.

    • That’s right. Also, if people are involved with EJF, EJF makes them convert again.

    • GiyoresToBe

      See: Yisrael Campbell’s movie, “Circumsize Me,” about how he converted three times.

  • I’ve tried to stay as far away from EJF as possible so, I don’t know how on point this sounds. Although, I’ve never been a fan of this organization. I know they wait until the conversion is close and then tell the people they have to pay over a thousand for their conversion. If you protest, you must not be sincere.

    Has anyone heard from anyone who converted with them that this really goes on? I don’t doubt the man’s a creep but, I haven’t had it leaked to me that this goes on. I’m pretty on top of these things.

    • Is it common to pay for a conversion? I never heard that before.

      So if you don’t have the money you can’t convert?

      • Sergeant J

        Apparently, there is almost always money involved, at least in “required instruction”. I can’t see how you would need to give a few grand at the end though.

        • GiyoresToBe

          Paying 3 rabbis (beis din), the beis din administrator, and paying the teacher of your classes. Everyone spends a lot of time checking up on you.

          That said, do I think spending over a thousand for a conversion is fair? Nope. Do I know how much time the Rabbis spend doing this? Nope.

      • GiyoresToBe

        Very common. Fees range from $250 (which is basically a mikvah + book feee) to $2000 + a (small) Jewish library. At least at the place that makes you pay 2k, they warn you before you sign up for the first time.

        There is usually… wiggle room about the fees. How much? It depends. EJF apparently doesn’t have much wiggle room.

      • It is. I did not. The rabbi I worked with for the first year told me $500 which I was ok with. I paid $50 for the mikvah which I handed over a $50 bill that I had just gotten that past Sunday babysitting for my other rabbi. My sponsoring rabbi offered to pay it for me. I felt $50 was more than fair enough.

        • I wasn’t including the books I bought or the classes I did pay for. I usually took the MJE classes meant for BTs. They were $5 a class at the time. They are $7 now. I bought some books and swapping with others in the process or took books out of the library. There’s a Jewish library about 15 blocks from me and then the public libraries in Queens and Manhattan. I even went to Brooklyn for some of the books. Brooklyn’s public library has more than NYPL and Queens.

      • Yes, you have to pay. What the fee is called varies. It can be a “mikveh fee”, which is most definitely higher than what women pay to go monthly (the lowest I’ve heard is $180), or an “application fee” (I paid this…about $300). You can also be asked to pay for your learning/tutoring per class or per hour. I friend of mine inquired about conversion in FL and was quoted about $1,500…which she didn’t have (so she opted to not go through with it).

        I have no clue what you can do when you can’t pay. Since the conversion process takes a long time, I don’t see why they couldn’t set up some sort of payment plan though.

        • I paid a $50 mikvah fee and that is it. My sponsoring rabbi even offered to pay it for me. However, I had a crisp $50 bill that I had earned babysitting for another rabbi just that past Sunday so I handed it over.

  • A. Nuran

    Whaddya mean “finally”? Look at Failed Messiah on any given day and you’ll almost certainly see a frum sex scandal. The only difference is that this one is all-adult. It’s usually rabbis molesting little children and the community threatening anyone who tries to put the degenerates in jail.

    Full disclosure here. I believe with all my heart and soul that:

    – Short eyes belong in jail, preferably in General Population with tattoos reading “Baby-raper”.
    – Anyone who hides them from justice deserves the same.
    – Any god who tells people to hide it does not deserve the worship of decent people and could learn morals from things that live at the bottom of ponds.

    That is one of the reasons I cannot in good conscience be anything but an aporikos.

    If the Sages say it, it’s Torah.
    If it’s Torah it’s the Word of the Almighty.
    The Sages say “Anyone who turns a baby-raper in to the police is a moser and is damned forever.”
    The Sages and the deity they represent must be rejected by anyone with a vestige of human decency.

    Yes, I’ve read the gemara about how diddlers can be fined. Eating a slice of bacon, putting honey in Temple incense or carrying an umbrella on Saturday carries the death penalty.

    • You are correct – but I am not so interesting in kids getting fondled in the mikvah – did you take a look at the woman who this is all about – her picture on her linkedin profile reveals that she’s a real Texas babe and blond too.

      I should have said a frum hetero non-pedophile sex scandal, happy now?

    • Devin

      As usual A.Nuran I totally agree with you.

  • Heshy, VIN had it up the other day and was being surprisingly liberal with the comments. This guy is a menuval and caused a lot of gerim world wide a lot of pain. He is getting his due and publicaly going down in flames.

  • ghottistyx

    The way it’s been explained to me: if Leib Tropper had his way, no RCA Rabbi’s geirut would be valid. The Nafka Minah is that the myriads who have been converted by non-Chareidi Orthodox Rabbis would suddenly find that if they tried moving to Israel, their citizenship would be denied! It already is happening; it is getting harder for plenty of people to prove that they really are Jewish in order to get Israelli citizenship.

    Also, Nosson Slifkin on his website has the entire story of the denunciation of his books. Although Tropper is not the only Rabbi on this list, it sheds a lot of light on the zeitgeist. I can only conclude that it’s political. Slifkin’s story is quite sad–all the Rabbis who gave haskamot to his books were threatened!

    Let the Tiger Woods and Elliot Spitzer comparisons begin.

    • It’s been reported in the mainstream press how difficult it is for even baalai tshuva to get married in Israel. A tremendous amount of documentation is required, some of which is only available from dead people. Scary stuff.

  • Anonymous Houston

    I live in Houston and davened in the same room as this woman this morning. She still comes to shul and seems to be very interested in becoming Jewish. Yes, she does live within the Jewish community, and is always invited out for Shabbos meals by many of us here. She is a quiet sweet woman, and those of us who’ve heard what happened are all pretty shocked. No, she has not converted yet, and I’m pretty positive the Beis Din here will never allow her to convert now after this scandal occurred. She has two wonderful sweet children in the frum day school here who are innocent and being raised within the community as frum children. I feel so terrible for them!
    I do believe that even though she acted inappropriately, she was quite the victim as well in this situation, being manipulated by someone she looked up to as a leader during an emotionally difficult period in her life.

    • kolpogimbo

      I’m sorry your sympathy is totally misplaced. She is an adult, and knows that inappropriate sexual conduct is not consistent with basic tenants of orthodox Jewish practice (Even relatively moral people in general society respect the sanctity of marriage). Despite there being a power differential, she could have picked herself up and gone elsewhere. Tropper is a menuval shayin chamohu , but she is not guiltless. She is party to this terrible Hillul Hashem. I have been following the nefarious activities of EJF for months it was inevitable that it would play out the way it has.

      • MadMaxInJerusalem

        There are a lot of weak, unstable people in the world who will follow whatever their authority figure says. That doesn’t make them bad, just weak. Why do you think that the Torah says to stick to the dust of the feet of Rabbis / Tzaddikim and get a Rav for yourself? She was sticking to him and he just convinced her to stick a little closer. I can completely see how this can happen to someone ignorant in the “Don’t wipe your butt with asking your Reb” Charadi zombie culture.

        • MadMaxInJerusalem

          That was supposed to say “without asking your Reb”

      • Anonymous

        she’s no victim, and indeed has no respect for marriage. Tropper is not the first married Jewish man she’s slept with.

        • Anonymous

          I wonder how much money she was paid by the millionaire who is trying to discredit Rabbi Tropper and ruin his and his family’s life all for the sake of the almighty dollar? There is no doubt that the recorded conversations are fake and she was most likely paid handsomely in order to record her side of the conversation. Since she is a real person who had been involved with the EJF, it would make the hideous lies much more convincing.

          Make no mistake about it, this preposterous Chillul Hashem has nothing to do with religion or sex; it only has to do with money. People with money can perpetrate any type of fraud just to start a media frenzy and ruin the reputation of the person who he is trying to hurt. Guma Aguilar feels that Rabbi Tropper has not handled his endowments in the way that he would have liked and he will go to any lengths to ruin Rabbi Tropper and everything that he has built.

  • Anonymous in Israel

    Really now?!! I find this post and others like it extremely disturbing.

    There have been several molestation scandals in our community. Unfortunately, my daughter was one of the children in the classroom with a suspected teacher.

    At the time, I contacted a (secular, if that makes any difference) child psychologist who was very much involved in the case and advocating for the children involved. I was angry, to say the least..

    I wanted to blow the whole case open to the community and have the teacher exposed..warning parents to speak to their children.

    I didn’t. For several reasons…First of all, there was clearly a lack of evidence. But, the psychologist said something that made me stop in my tracks.

    She reminded me that even if the woman was guilty- STILL, her family..children..relatives are entitled to their privacy. Their lives. There is always a way to deal with the situation WITHOUT embarassing an entire (innocent) family.

    I am saddened by the news, but more so by the response of our community and bloggers such as this one.. It may be in the news, but discussing it further and creating a public place for negative comments shows a lack of sensitivity on your part.

    There are laws regarding spreading scandals like this. And the fact is, one is not allowed to believe it EVEN if it is published in the news.

    “Oh and as expected Vos Iz Neias and Yeshiva World News have not made one mention of this ”

    Probably, because they have a bit more respect…

    • And people who act scandalously love that which is why they keep doing it and more people get hurt. We have an obligation to the masses not the perps.

    • And I guess that non-public embarrassment has worked so far eh?

      If there private ways to do it that would be great – but it doesn’t seem to work since many organizations have been covering up molestation in order to “protect” the family and that sure as hell didn’t work.

      • Oh and if Vos Iz Neias and YWN had more respect why do they only bother to talk about scandals involving chabad or modern orthodox people?

        • Izzy

          VIN has covered the molestation issue, much more than YWN. They do not get very detailed, but then there is more then one way to cover a story, especially when you are catering to a certain crowd. Some might argue you go too far in the other direction.

        • yiddishe momma

          Heshy, you are so right about VIN going to town over Rubashkin, except VIN is having a field day with this Tropper scandal now. AFAIK, YWN hasn’t touched it.

          I have complained more than once about VIN’s anti-Chabad bias (on all issues, although they have been ecstatic over Agriprocessors & SM Rubashkin’s tsures) to no avail.

          I have many friends who are Geirim Tzedek & they must be so upset about this EJF issue. I can’t believe what I read! As for payment for conversion, there are obviously expenses incurred. If it matters so much to become a Ger, money shouldn’t be an issue if the costs are justified. A Bais Din, for example, convenes. Why shouldn’t the Rabbonim be paid for their work? What, they should live on air? Handouts? Welfare?

      • Anonymous in Israel

        Okay. You do sound like an expert on the matter.

        Can you give me an example… where there was evidence produced in a case like this.. and authorities like Rabbis, Principals, or Colleagues just covered it up AND let it continue?

        Just curious. Because if I’m wrong, I’ll say I’m wrong.

        • Yes in the case of the Baltimore kollel yungerman who committed suicide both sites said it was a car accident even after the police report with eye witnesses came back.

          What about Kolko? The school knew about it for years as did parents and they let him teach on…

          I am no expert on this but every time something like this gets out it is always due to a cover up – what about the cases of pedophiles and child molestation in Baltimore that the Star-K covered up, and then patted themselves on the back when they admitted it?

          • Izzy

            Heshhy, you are confusing the Star-K with the Vaad Harabonim of Baltimore. The Star-K is a business that, among other things, has a hashkacha, and is led/owned partially by Rabbi Heinemann. The Vaad Harabonim of Baltimore, which issued the letter that you seem to be referring to, is an organization including almost all of the Orthodox Rabbis in Baltimore, ranging from Rabbi Heinemann to the ultra-MO.

  • Houston resident

    I’m also from Houston and from the little that I know this women, she seems to be the victim. I hope the community treats her nicely and dosent make her pay for Troppers sins. Can’t wait for the New York Times article to finish off such a monster

  • NewYorker

    First, I know I am going to be attacked for what I am going to say. I do not welcome it or enjoy it, it is what it is. Ok, here we go…in my life experience of 31 years, growing up in the modern orthodox community, and from high school years through my early 20’s, the black hat “agudah” community, finally until today, where I am shomer shabbos, but keep little else, I have seen aveiros, including those of a sexual nature, that seem to permeate the black hat and chassidic communities. The sexual perversions, in my opinion, are almost non-existent in the modern orthodox, conservative, and reform communities. I am a self employed business man, and deal with jews from every walk of religious life. Unfortunately, in my experiences with the agudah and chassidic communites, on the whole, are negative, in these instances. 1) Genyevah. I am constantly lied to, and attempted to be taken advantage of, in business matters. Specifically from chassidim. Specifically, satmar and kloysenberg. These peoples faces light up with glee when telling me how they are screwing other people, their employees or clients, or the government out of money. I was one seriously reprimanded by a chassid “you are too honest, what is wrong with you”. I’m not joking, and this is not to hype myself up, its just the truth. This I’ve seen on a much lesser scale in agudah circles as well, but it does happen 2) Sexual immorality. I have lost count at the amount of chassidim and black hatters whom I know for a fact hire escort services for sex, and some even have apartments in manhattan just for their rendezvous with a steady mistress or multiple mistresses. I have ridden in a car with chassidim who listen to hardcore rap music, do drugs such as marijuana and cocaine, and have the filthiest, most vulgar mouths of anyone on the planet, it would put a sailor to shame. I have had to listen to tales of their latest “shtuppings” with shiksas of all types, ranging from ukrainian immigrants to blacks. For many chassidim I see, it appears to me, that their life is one big act. They are poorly educated in the secular sense, and have the writing ability of a twelve year old. They are supported by parents, grandparents and in-laws, and marry very young. Then they go out into the world to make a living, $100,000 to start, nothing less. What does a man in todays society, who speaks with thick yiddish accented english, can barely write english, and has no skills other than lying and manipulation do to make money? I actually do not know. What I do know is that there does not appear to be morals in these peoples lives. They steal to make money, have sex with whores, and dabble in drugs. Rabbi Tropper is a charming, brilliant man, but he’s also evil, using his position of power to fulfill his sexual desires. He dumped his first wife for a bimbo who was in one of his classes he taught. And now we can all see why; she fit into his sexual desires. Tropper is no different from the illiterate chassidim mentioned previously. What is my point? Just that in todays world, in this country, if you want to be a religious jew and make a good income, YOU CAN, but only when coupled with a decent secular education. As for sexual perversity, well, when a 20 year old male virgin marries the first girl that makes his shmeckel pay attention, he is going to be one bored 25 year old married man. I’m not advocating sex before marriage, but perhaps kissing before marriage is ok. All I know is, chassidim and black hatters are sexual deviants at levels a thousand fold than of men in modern orthdox, and less religious movements.

    • MadMaxInJerusalem

      I think we all know that these problems exists, but I feel the need to post something which counterbalances this – a great story about the ongoing Kidush HaShem which is the Chassidic B&H in Manhattan – written by a secular Israeli Yored:


      Why Circuit City Failed, and Why B&H Thrives

      …No, wait: The most amazing thing is that I have often gone into B&H to purchase a specific product, only to be talked into something cheaper. For example, once I went in to buy a field video monitor to use for some interviews I was conducting. I expected to pay $600 until the salesperson said, “Why don’t you just get one of these cheap consumer portable DVD players? They have video inputs, they work just as well, and they’re under $100.” This was no accident. “The entire premise of our store is based upon your ability to come in, touch, feel, experiment, ask, and discuss your needs without sales pressure,” B&H’s website says.

      But wait: The conveyer belts, the prices, the smart salespeople, the fact that they recommend cheaper products almost as a rule — none of these is actually the most amazing thing about B&H. Really, the most amazing thing is that because the owners of B&H are Orthodox Jews — Hasidim, in fact — the store closes every Friday afternoon for the Jewish Sabbath, and on Jewish holidays. Moreover, B&H’s website, which reportedly accounts for 70 percent of sales, shuts down, too. Bhphotovideo.com is, to my knowledge, the only major online retailer that closes for 25 hours every weekend.

    • Anonymous

      You may be right about chassidim. I have known people who swore they were witnesses to wife swapping in that community. But don’t kid yourself, the yetzer hora is ubiquitous. There is a reason the 5Towns has a reputation for “affairs.” It may be the pool boy or it may be the childhood sweetheart that got away. I heard the stories, and then I dated a guy from lawrence.. and sure enough… he was having a full- fledged very complex sexual affair with his childhood sweetheart with all sorts of precautions to outsmart her husband. And it had been going on for over ten years. Just two typical modern orthodox raised kids.

    • Rabbi 2 Face

      SO it seems the more religious you are, the worse you behave? Wow Judiasm really is worth while after all 🙂

    • kidding right?

      sexual perversions almost non existent in the mod orthodox world?? are you kidding? What was the name of that lawyer from top law firm who recently committed suicide after all the kiddie porn was found on his computer (nebech on wife and kids and the shanda they had to endure twice over) ? You got everything in every community– same statistics.

      But this Tropper, boy does he take the cake… its one thing to just be an ordinary guy w sexual challenges. Another to put yourself out as high and holy and in charge of determining others spiritual and Jewish state but at the same time taking advantage of those people — in the lowest of ways– pimping??? And leaves one to wonder if the women he turned on whose conversion he said was invalid, if it was his way of forcing them out of the community bc they knew something and he was afraid of them… did he make advances toward them and he turned them down? Name any rabbi w a sex scandal and still not as severe as this character who was invalidating conversions.

  • MalachMamovies

    This is the vantz (yiddish-bedbug ) that destroyed Rabbi Slifkin. Shame on him and the Rabbis that supported him. I don’t know what’s worse – the actual schmurz or hearing him talk in a typical ysehiva brooklynese accent.. LOL !!

  • FrumGer

    Heshy i like what you said about people judging orthodox jews based on one shlimeal they met.

    Firstly, yes heshy it almost always costs to convert, its absurd, because no yidden have ever known how it feels to be a non jew wanting to be a jew. if they could at all understand the feel you go through a gerim process, they would not make it so difficult. and to me the shulchan aruch says that if they are sincere convert them immediatly, no not wait, but my conversion took over a year, and i knew my stuff too.

    its just that the only thing worse than feeling like a jew in a room of goyim, is feeling like a goy trying to be a jew in a room full of jews. its a terrible feeling. i feel bad for her, because you really feel like you have no one. you can’t be a goy because you understand that the torah is truth, and christianity/ islam etc is bullshit. and when ur with jews, you always have this heavy feeling of being inadequate.

    a goy that wants to be jewish, get to a point after so long that they will do anything to take their mikvah, and complete their gerim process. i feel totally bad for this women i feel bad for all inthe gerim process in general, because its one of the most depressing, self loathing , low self esteemed points in anyones life. i am suprised no one kills theirself.

    because, you begin to actually hate the goyim part of you with ferver, and you begin to hate yourself. you cant wait to convert and it seems like it will never happen. you go to shul where you are an outsider, different, not really one of the crowd. not counted in a minyan (for men) its a very bad feeling. i could see why she would do this.

    also hehsy, that is why her facebook page said she was catholic and is now jewish. many gerim say they are jewish before they actually convert. many gerim, become observant and just say “I’m Jewish” even though they really are not. to other goyim, they can’t tell the difference anyway, and at least you can “feel” jewish with other goyim, or even to jews that do not know your history. (good chance on finding one that wont ask in like 30 seconds)

    she was just trying to “feel” jewish because she wants soo bad to be jewish. i actually think the gerim process has gotten off the derech from what its was in talmudic times. but the rabbaim are the poskim and i will follow what they dicree, though i don’t really think it needs to be soooo harsh now a days. i know why they have made it harsh, and for good reason , thanks mainly to christian europe. but now a days if someone wants to be jewish and are sincere (and you can really tell in a couple months if they are) let them be. charge them a fee if they have it, and if they don’t, just do it for a couple shekels……

    i hope she goes to another shul and finishes her gerim, because after this rabbi took advantage of her being desperate she deserves it.

    Its funny how all these rabbaim are denying each others conversions, when the shulchan aruch makes soooooo many points on how a conversion is still kosher even if this or that did not take place…. ie if there wa only two witnesses not three, or if its was done on a shabbos, etc. they set that up in my opinion to disuade people from denying others converts.

    i say if they did it by the shulchan aruch, then its kosher-

    cheredi, modox,(this is controversial but) i think even traditional conservative (meaning the Rabbi does keep Torah and the witnesses are G-d fearing kosher jews or Rabbaim) ie walk on shabbos, keep kosher, daven daily. I know many conservative jews that are just as puntilious as i am about observance, and are more religious then some folks in orth shuls. of course egalitarianism is bull shit and i dont agree with it, but in general, but other than that, many conservititves are kosher jews and to me their conversions, as long as its kosher with the shulchan aruch, should be validated. that doesn’t mean i agree with a GREAT deal of what the conservivtivism is, i dont! gay rabbaim, women Rabbaim, etc is chillul HAshem.but i have come to learn that not every conservivitve is like that.

    Reform and reconstructionist No way because as a doctrine they do not regard the laws as binding, and most do not even go to the mikvah.

    anyone agree disagree?? nu?

    • This is a excellent, excellent post – you hit the nail on the head. Yasher koach!

    • DrumIntellect

      FrumGer,

      I enjoyed reading your post. Very passionate.

      I don’t understand why anyone would want to convert to Judaism when they know that they are not required to convert in order to be a good person and they can still get to “Heaven” as a Non-Jew.
      Perhaps this is not the right forum for this discussion, and I realize this is a very personal thing, but I would love to hear your thoughts.

      • Phil

        If any non Jew believes in the Torah, they can always opt for the Noachide laws. They are easier to follow, much less stringent.

        True Geirim deserve special credit, that’s why we pray for them in the Amidah 3 times a day.

        Just my 2 cents as usual.

        • DrumIntellect

          Agreed and agreed. I don’t understand why anyone would choose to be Jew. (Aside from wanting to marry a jewish person, obviously.)

          • Why is it so hard to understand? There is an undeniable beauty and solace that is Judaism. Something about it all “fitting together” that I have not been able to find in other faiths. I refuse to let the bad behavior of Jews taint the truth and meaning of Judaism. That is really what you are ashamed of I hope. I hope the real situation is that you feel that Judaism is a pointless, archaic faith that you would not choose if you were not born into it. Although if that is the case, you have the right to that feeling; G-d knows, you are not alone (sadly).

            There was a point where my conversion was stonewalled; where I had to re-evaluate if it was really meant to be for me to convert. Although I had always known about them, I started to seriously consider becoming a Noahide. I did not keep that idea for long. There is no “Noahide” community really…they function out there alone with a few rabbonim here and there that they can consul with. All of the Noahides I had conversations with were basically people who wanted to become Jewish, but could not — due to their location, their personal situation, or their inability to maintain a frum lifestyle. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is better that they be honest about this then become Jews and go off the derech. But that was not for me; I knew I was in a good position to become a Jew and had been living a frum life for a while, so I nixed the idea…it was just did not seem to fit me.

            • I hope the real situation is that you feel that Judaism is a pointless, archaic faith that you would not choose if you were not born into it.

              Whoops…I forgot to put the word “don’t” or “not”in there somewhere….

            • Phil

              I’m not ashamed of Jdaism at all, these clowns that act as rabbis are the ones that should be ashamed of their actions.

              I just figured most people wouldn’t want to live with the “burdens” that we do. Most of my relatives are non observant Jews, so you can understand how I would question why a person not born into the faith would decide to do so.

              Anyway, your perspective is interesting. I know some converts that are extremely nice an kind people, also very spiritual, so I can understand why they would want to choose Judaism as a religion, though I’m still surprised at the strength of their commitment.

              • Judaism needs more Jews (born and converts) who embrace the faith and are willing to make Am Yisrael an or l’goyim. Observance of the mitzvot are not easy. However going to medical school to become a doctor or going through law school to become a lawyer also are not easy. However for some reason more Jews get excited and “embrace” the burden of going to (or their children going to) medical school or law school. Why? Because material and/or social prestige and success have taken priority over spirituality. If our priorities as a society did not rely so much on materialism, our views regarding those who choose to live a religious life would be so different!

            • DrumIntellect

              I understand believing that the Torah is true and wanting to fulfill the laws contained therein, but seeing as one can fulfill your obligation without becoming a Jew, I didn’t understand why one would subject themselves to the trouble.
              The point I got out of your post is that not converting would leave you without a support system. I can relate to that. Thank you for your perspective on a question that has bothered me for years!

              • Maybe — but I feel you can get a “support system” from many, many places — strong ones, even outside of religion. In my college days (my high school days were pretty mudane) I hung out with skinheads and punks; and they were my support system for years (I am still friends with quite a few). So I could get that…in many places (including my own biological family) without Judaism.

                This is more about my relationship with G-d. I have always believed in G-d — there was never a moment I denied his existence. My problem was finding a faith that could properly dictate how I should relate to him. Yes, I am clear that I can remain a Noahide; and that is ok. But Judaism exists today because there were those who were not born as Jews; and they took on the responsibility of the Torah. Not only at Har Sinai…but it has been an ongoing occurrence ever since. Having non-Jews become Jews is an integral part of Judaism. Judaism has never been about “oh we have this faith…we have dibs…you cannot get in now”.

                It comes back to there being a stark difference in what Judaism is, and how modern day frum Jews live. How many exemplary individuals are in Tanakh who have been converts? We admire and look towards them as examples as to what our relationship to Hashem should be all about. Now what has changed to shift that view of converts today? How did we get so off track here?

                • DrumIntellect

                  I think you misunderstand me. I was never suggesting that people shouldn’t convert or that people who were born jewish are in any way superior. I just couldn’t understand why anyone would voluntarily become a jew.

                  • I agree I do misunderstand. I do not, and probably never will, understand why born Jews say this in regards to converts. I equate it with a teacher telling a student of theirs who wants to be a teacher “I just don’t understand why anyone would want to become a teacher.” The message is conflicting and just does not seem to compute to me. It is true, there is a difference…people are not born as teachers. But hey, they have the choice to choose another profession…and for whatever reason they have not. I personally feel the same way about Jews. If you do not understand why someone else would want to become Jewish, then why do you choose to live as a Jew? Yes, halacha says that you cannot convert and become a non-Jew. But then again if you think Judaism is nothing but a burden of rules, then you (and I say ‘you’ generally…not specifically) may want to evaluate what your definition of Judaism is because ultimately, halacha may not mean all that much and you are free to do as you please then. On the other hand if you believe that Judaism provides a key to elevated form of spirituality via the tool which is Torah observance, then you can easily see why a non-Jew would be attracted to this.

                    • DrumIntellect

                      Two answers:
                      1. People keep the Torah because they were taught that they are required to. If they weren’t born Jewish, most wouldn’t keep the Torah.

                      2. People keep the Torah in public because of family and community pressure. When the pressure eases, they do what they want. (BTW, this isn’t a bad thing to say, the Talmud quotes a rabbi as saying you should fear god the way you fear a human. His students said, as much a a human and not more? To which he basically responded, the fear of others is is pretty intense.)

                      You’ve now given me another insight into reasons become jewish… that they see it as a way of being elevated spiritually! Thank you for your insights. I greatly appreciate it.

                    • >If you do not understand why someone else would want to become Jewish, then why do you choose to live as a Jew?

                      What do you think? No one ever gave him a choice. He practically spells it out…

                      Welcome to the jail.

          • Phil

            Drum,

            Converting for marriage invalidates the conversion according to most valid authorities, as it casts doubt on their sincerity.

            To the best of my knowledge, the authorities have become more lenient over the centuries.

            • DrumIntellect

              My understanding is converting just to marry a specific person invalidates a conversion to Judaism, but converting in order to marry someone (eventually) who shares your religious outlook and goals in life probably wouldn’t be a problem.

      • Just ‘anyone’ most definitely should not convert to Judaism. Judaism is an awesome responsibility…something that all Jews (born and not born) are free to embrace. I like analogies…and I liken the choice to become a Jew with the choice to become a doctor…or maybe it would be more fitting here to say police officer. I look at police officers and I wonder who in the world would ever want that job? You put your life in danger, you deal with the worst segments of society and you won’t make a glorious salary do it. Yet thousands of people answer that call. That is how it is for converts. For each one of us, our reasons are different. But our draw to Judaism is valid and strong; whether or not it is understood by outsiders or not. 🙂

  • Borrav

    Well I think that it was legitimate for the Rabbi to boink her before the conversion. He was just looking out for the Jews with a bist of Quality Qontrol.

    • Phil

      Yeah, when she tried to convert he ask her “do you have any Jewish in you?”. When she replied in the negative, he said “you vant some?” 😉

  • Could barely understand that thik yeshivish accent. Chuy Blatt

  • MalachMamovies

    Ok. So he had sex with her. It’s not the worst thing in the world. As long as he didn’t shake her hand.

    • No, she shook his finger… the eleventh one!

  • kolpogimbo

    Frum Ger kol Hacovod i totally hear you, my only concern is gerut for marriage not for Hashem. Sounds like your home despite the barriers

  • tumim

    kofrim !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all uh u !!!!!!!!!!! he is a GODAL HADAR !!!!!

  • MalachMamovies

    It could have been much much worse. At least you don’t hear any discussion of him chas v’shalom wanting to shake her hand. Imagine how big the scandal would have been then !! LOL!!

  • Borrav

    its only a sin if you are caught

  • Anonymous

    i think it is disgusting to make a satire out of this. you are spreading lshon hara and it is disgusting. what a chilul hashem.

    • Dude – please if you can tell me how to make satire out of this I would love ya – I am trying to do a piece on him and Tiger Woods and it’s not working too well.

      People who try to cover things up like this are the biggest chillul Hashem of all – I was waiting for you phony “cry chillul Hashem” bastards to come out of the woodwork.

      Please explain to me why this is a chillul Hashem…I am really curious about your logic.

  • Anonymous

    we aren’t supposed to even BELIEVE such things about a fellow jew. take this down, you are only making the situation worse for klal yisroel

    • Dude this post is dedicated to people like you – actually this entire blog is dedicated to people like you

    • Sheep

      You are an enabler.

  • Heshy, you wrote: “(she) claimed on her Myspace page that she was Jewish. This implies that she has already converted.” Given the Orthoox practice of having Geirim live Jewishly before conversion (except for Shabbat) “Jewish” is a better description than any alternative. It is possible that she had already done a conversion but huckster Tropper sold her on the idea she needed a giyur l’chumarah that would be universally accepted (per all the advertising on the EJF site). If we are talking about giyur l’chumrah Jewish is the simplest one word explanation for describing herself on Facebook.

    You argue that a wealthy man can could have orchestrated Tropper’s demise by playing to his weaknesses and the woman’s conduct suggest a greater interest in bringing Tropper down even at the expense of her reputation. I would offer an alternative hypothesis. Tropper did these things regularly. He had ensnared her. She complained to a rabbi or to a friend. This came to the attention of one of Tropper’s many enemies both inside and outside the rabbinical establishment. They offered her a way to stop his abusive conduct and chillul hashem; record a few encounters, the tape would be used by insiders to confront him and stop him and she could go on with her life. Perhaps she was misled into believing that the tapes would never be used publicly. Perhaps there were private attempts to induce Tropper to step down but he refused or perhaps his supporters were hoping to ride out the scandal by blaming it all on her and a wealthy backer.

    More broadly, whatever the woman’s shortcomings, Tropper is obviously a miscreant and I do not believe that his misconduct was a one time consequence of a set-up. In fact there are good reaons to believe that his misconduct was regularly reported to others for decades. Our rabbinic establishment ignored these complaints, just as our molesters get a pass until they are indicted and then everyone protests “I am shocked, shocked!”

    Heshy, there is a case to be dan l’kaf zchus about this woman. I see no way to be dan l’kaf zchus for Tropper, unless we strip out the words dan and l’kaf. Lets keep our eye on the ball, because in spite of Tropper’s EJF resignation he is still in play. He has not resigned as rosh yeshiva of Kol Yaakov or as director of his adult kiruv outreach, Horizons. He is a dangerous man who manipulates those who are weaker, and BTs are vulnerable to a man like him. Ain api Tropper l’arayos.

    PS- I have a post about this at http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2009/12/21/troppers-rise-and-fall/

  • Izzy
    • Phil

      Izzy,

      Seems like VIN doesn’t want to post the story directly (Lashon hara?), the are just referring viewers to the NY post article.

  • I have just written a post

    Rabbi Leib Tropper Announces the Formation of Eternal Jewish Tshuvah (Satire)

    http://wp.me/pFbfD-98

  • Frum ger, i am sorry to tell you that you can convert a hundred times over but you still will remain a goy in a room full of jews. That is because being jewish is as much a culture and a kin network as a religion. You may never 100% belong. But hopefully your children will.

    Whats the solution? Quit hating the goyish part of you and embrace it! Embrace your past and your non Jewish connections, embrace them loud and clear, and publicly. The way to fully belong is to fully accept yourself.

  • ruben in zurich

    conversion by injecton…..a new way to make jews….and pleasant at the same time…..

  • american christianity kind of idolizes the jews. anyway, maybe this will dissuade all those former christians from trying to convert… see the jews really aren’t much of a chosen people after all

  • Truth

    Concerning Rabbi Leib Troppe, look for the Tovia Singer connection to this lady and everything will become perfectly clear.

  • ben

    i am a neigbor of the troppers. if you have any idea who Rabbi Tropper is you won’t belive the story. As there is another scandel with the billionaire, with that amount of money – no suprise that he could have forged the tapes. Anyone that belives it is being Mekabel Motzei Shem Rah!!!

  • Ben, the problem is not his shem, it is his voice. Tell me that you would want to trust anyone who speaks like that on matters of kedushah. I have discouraged people from the invasion of privacy, but if he is your neighbor you have a responsibility to protect children and adults in the neighborhood. If listening to the tapes will do it, i think you have an obligation to listen.

  • I have issued a correction to my posting about Leib Tropper’s new organization Eternal Jewish Tshuvah. See:

    http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2009/12/21/correction-yerachmiel-lopin-of-frumfollies-apologizes-to-leib-tropper-satire-2/

  • anonymous

    where is a link to the video?

  • As a Houston resident I’m getting a real earful of many facts some of which yet have come to light as to how much this woman was manipulated and some of it had to do with the welfare of her children. It’s my understanding that her conversion was about a week or so away before this scandal broke out.

  • AR

    This woman has a very interesting past. I have heard that she has been divorced twice and uses several names. From her email sites, you can see that she has been a transient individual, living in several cities in her short life. Although she went to several schools, it doesn’t appear that she ever obtained a degree, from her postings. He resume shows a very unstable person that could not hold a job for any significant length of time. Maybe there is more to this story than is told. Just because a person of authority tells you to “rob a bank” or “kill someone” , doesn’t mean you do it! How old is she again??? Not 16!!! This was a well thought out plan to destroy someone for some type of benefit. Lawsuits are a great way to make a living in America these days!

    • MadMaxInJerusalem

      So she’s a weak willed, unstable person who was manipulated by a super intelligent control freak. Talk about blaming the victim.

    • You have got to be kidding me; I hope you never sit on a jury or anything because everything you present here is purely circumstantial. I myself have also “moved around” a lot and went to several different schools before obtaining my degree. This is not because I was “unstable” — it is because I was broke. I needed to start-stop school due to financial reasons (in fact, I probably would not have obtained my degree at all if it was not for an insurance settlement), and I would move to follow job opportunities. Then I moved again when I wanted to convert because I needed to be in the frum community. Very few converts are in situations where they don’t have to move in order to convert!

      You speak like this, because you do not know what it is like. I lived in a neighborhood that had 8 Orthodox shuls and it still took me more than a year to find a rabbi that would work with me for conversion. The others had their reasons why they did not want to be involved in conversions any more. So once you finally find a rabbi who will work with you, it is not so easy to say, “Hey, I don’t like you…I’m going somewhere else!” because many times, there is no where else for you to go.

      People need to understand – conversion to Judaism requires a lot of people to be involved. If the process gets hung up, or does not work out as it should, the convert (or convert-to-be) is not always the reason…it can be any of the other people (rabbis, mentors, etc.) as well. I mean, a person cannot convert all on their own…

  • MadMaxInJerusalem

    For all you Gerim, watch out!

    ‘Rabbinical courts can annul conversion’

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1261364487790

  • Beef22

    She is nothing but a gold digger. I do not blame someone for being of little financial means. What I do blame a person for is using other people to “make a living”. I suspect this was well thought out on her part. What better way to walk away with millions of dollars that you did not earn, than a lawsuit. Sounds like a plan to me.
    She is currently dating a doctor that also helps her financially. She is nothing in the community than a manipulative, gold digger looking for her next meal ticket. This doctor is nothing short of an idiot. Her reputation has proceeded her, and yet he allows himself to be used. He is as stupid as her.

  • FrumGer

    kisarita
    i must tell that most jews i meet think i am a jew, look at me like a jew, because i am a jew. what i expirience before my gerim a long time ago was just that a long time ago. i am punctilious in my observance and thats what really matters. i get no one shunning me in any way at all. about hating the goyim in me, problem solved when i went to the mikvah so need not worry there.

    for all you that ask the silly ? why? because noahides are for whimps. I wanted to convert because chrisitianity is bullshit and so is islam, because i believe in the G-d of Yisrael and wished to be bound to the Torah, my opinion of yidden that think that way, Get some chavanah for the yoke of Torah. if you love Hashem the lifestyle is easy. why? becausde davening and keeping kosher and being shomer shabbos is easy if you love Hahsem. if you do it just because you have to, you are in my opinion just doining it in vain because there needs to be chavanah in what you do.

    • DrumIntellect

      Three comments:
      1. I disagree about questions. There are very few truly silly questions, especially when they are posed in an honest, forthright, and respectful manner.

      2. Noahides are not wimps. The Noahides laws are quite complex and in some cases are stricter then the laws Jewish people “must” follow. (For example, there are cases where abortion is allowed for Jewish people but not for Non-Jewish people. Or the infamous example involving Joseph and his brothers, where eating from a “live” animal was allowed (in that case) for Jewish people, but not for Non-Jewish people.)

      3. With all due respect and please correct me if I don’t understand you correctly… are you saying that you converted because you didn’t want to be a wimp and you wanted to be macho?

  • There are some important fact here that I don’t think anyone mentioned (I haven’t read all 105 comments, admittedly).

    It all starts with the fact, known at least in the blogging world, that EJF did not convert the wife of billionnaire Guma Aguiar. So fact 1 is that this guy has it in for EJF. Btw, he is not observant and his wife did not want to commit to observance.

    Fact 2: Aguiar is in the midst of a major feud — spending millions in litigation — with his relative, Tom Kaplan, the billionnaire funder of EJF!

    Now, let’s put 1 and 2 together. This guy Guma’s wants revenge in the worst way, against both EJF and Kaplan. What does he do? He pays a woman (Orand) lots of money to record conversations with Rabbi Tropper (why is she recording them in the first place?). He uses some of his billions to splice together a very incriminating-sounding tape and attack Kaplan in ways he is not doing successfully in court.

    • So it was a sting operation? That doesn’t really justify anything does it.

      • A little objectivity

        Perhaps the sting went so far as to doctor the tapes or even get an impersonator. Who knows?

        Perhaps the truth is half and half. He did some wrong things but he did not do the things that people assume he did.

        It is hard to know exactly how far billions of dollars will go toward setting up another person.

    • MadMaxInJerusalem

      Now that’s motzei shem ra if I’ve ever seen it.

    • Anonymous

      US law, you have a case. Halachically, he still sinned. Your point please?

      • A little objectivity

        What sin are you accusing him of?

        Of course, no one is immune (ain apitropus l’arayos). It is possible. However, the fact that a billionaire bent on revenge is involved makes it possible that the entire thing is a set-up.

        I’m not saying it is. But it’s possible. It’s possible he did no sin.

        And it’s possible that if he sinned his sin was only in the realm of speech, which admittedly for a person who held his position is inexcusable. But it is not what people are making it out to be.

        When you say, with certainty, that his sinned halachically what exactly do you refer to? Actual arayos?

        Everything is possible, but with a crazed billionaire involved everything is possible in both directions.

        • MadMaxInJerusalem

          If the tapes are real, which they seem to be, then he was:

          1. Clearly having sex with a goy
          2. Trying to pimp that goy to other Jewish men so they can do the same

          So, two sins would be involved – Rambam defines #1 as giluy arayot and the second one would be Masit – inducing others to sin.

          • A little objectivity

            If the tapes are real — that is still the question.

            Even if they are, it is, in fact, not clear that they actually had sex. It is clear that she wants the “relationship” to be the way it was, but she never uses the word “sex.” It is clear — if the tapes are real — that he crossed some verbal and emotional barriers. It is clear — if the tapes are real — that his language is inappropriate . But it is not clear that there was sex.

            • MadMaxInJerusalem

              We obviously draw different conclusions from those tapes…

    • Perry

      Anyone in Monsey who has heard Tropper give shiur can verify 1000% (not 100) that the voice is Troppers. Don’t be ridiculous. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it ain’t a chicken.

  • Moshe Aron Kestenbaum, Williamsburg

    This is by far the most salacious story since Tiger woods. But here is the Caveat Tiger woods aint no rabbi? Rabbi Trooper should now go on and become the the founder of “Hookers For Jesus, dam it

  • Moshe Aron Kestenbaum, Williamsburg

    Rabbi Tropper could go and shtupp and f-k as much and as many girls that he wants too, that his personal addiction problem. But when he cloaks himself in the rabbinical cloak and uses that influence to ween a girl into to his perverted swinging or threesome sex acts thats a sin of mounumental porportions, he should be banned from ever calling himself a rabbi

  • Judith

    Innocent until proven guilty. The authenticity of the tapes must be verfied.

  • Eddie London

    So thi sis what Orhtodox Haredism is all about. They disqualify righteous converts and Zionist rabbis or the RCA. They want ehegemony over the conversion process. This filthy person Tropper even wrote books on “Yichud”. Then he uses his postion as rabbi to have sex with the prospective convert. This is how Haredim (experts) pervert the Torah. It is an interesting parallel to the Islamic revolution in Iran. The so called Ultra Religous Imams are the most brutal, and kill and rape their own citizens.

  • SRK

    To FrumGer and MissShona: my deepest respect.

    To all you Jewish people who so sadly don’t even know why you are Jewish… yeah there’s a lot of horrible stories and a lot of people who don’t act the way they should. But it’s pretty special to be Jewish. And I don’t mean the kind of special where you think you’re better than anyone. I mean the kind of special where you have to ACT better, try harder, and there is so much potential for a fulfilled spiritual life. You know, I grew up frum and had such a difficult time in the community, nobody wanted to answer my questions, I was so rejected just for asking questions at all. That’s not Judaism, that’s just the modern ghetto.

    I think it’s good that people like this disgusting so-called rabbi are exposed. I have witnessed really unpleasant things with regard to conversion with friends of mine, and I know there’s a lot of really scummy people taking advantage of power positions. Yes, it’s embarassing and a chillul Hashem. But the chillul Hashem is not admitting you did wrong. It’s doing wrong in the first place. I think that by exposing people like this, it’s the first step towards communal teshuva, towards admitting that we have problems that we really need to work on as a whole. Let’s grow from the experience and work together to prevent this kind of abuse, instead of getting upset that it’s revealed to the public. How about being upset that it exists in the first place… and we all know it does, although most can’t even admit it to themselves?

    The pride I take in being Jewish is how I relate to God and to my fellow human beings. So instead of being so angry and ashamed that it pushes you away from Judaism, let’s call this what it is… a travesty… a twisting and corruption that is NOT genuinely Judaism… and try to make our own lives and the lives of the people around us happier, healthier, more loving, and closer to God.

  • SRK, Thank you for your comment. We all need to stop worrying about meeting everyone else’s silly new rquirements and start concentrating on using our seichel and worying about how to be the best Jews each of us can be (which is different for each of us). The chumrah police and the shadchanim will hate it, but they got us into this mess. For years we have murmured in private and complied in public. We have had a massive failure of moral courage in our community. Over and over I hear stories of parents who live with the molesters of their children being allowed their freedom to molest again because they are worried about how it will look for them if they admit their child was molested. In effect they are sacrificing their children to moloch, and yes eventually some of those children flame out.

    Our so called leaders keep on failing us. So “b’makom sh’ain bo ish, histadel lihiyot ish” We are out of excuses for not acting.

  • Texas Tech Todd

    If you delve a little into Tropper’s first marriage and subsequent divorce you will get insight into what a narcissistic pig he is. He ditched his 1st wife, refused to give her a get, then suspiciously took up with his current wife, Leba after he helped her rediscover her Jewish roots and become “Frum”. It was only AFTER he was engaged to Leba that he forked over the get to his long suffering first wife. Is it any wonder he was able to manipulate her into satisfying his sick sexual needs by engaging in lesbian activity for his viewing pleasure. For the record, his children from his first marriage are the ones who repeated this to me, this is NOT hearsay. They have minimal contact with their father and view him as the pig he is being portrayed as, they are hardly surprised by his behavior. Save the “I wish my wife would do that….” comments, no you would not want to degrade the mother of YOUR children, unless of course you’re a narcissistic pervert too.

  • I have awarded Leib Tropper a Chutzpah Award for his incredibly lame apology and offered up some ideas about what a real apology would look like.

    http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/chutzpah-award-winner-leib-tropper-formerly-of-eternal-jewish-family-presently-of-eternal-jewish-tshuvah/

    Today I confirmed that Tropper is still in control of his yeshiva and kiruv organization. If you call them to complain about Tropper they suggest you write a letter to? You guessed it: Rabbi Tropper. I wrote a post about the fox guarding the chicken coop with some thoughts about the bigger problem of all the rabbis who enable him.

    http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2009/12/27/the-fox-guarding-the-chicken-coop-horizonskol-yaakov-funnels-complaints-about-tropper-to-%E2%80%93-you-guessed-it-%E2%80%93-tropper/

  • OutOfTheBox

    This blog sickens me. I wish I knew how to help you all. May Hashem
    grant us the answers and let us all live in peace with each other.

    • Send me some money, that would really help, my address is somewhere on here

  • Perry

    The sad reality of the Tropper scandal is that we are relieved that his victims were consenting adults whom he exploited based on his power and not hairless 7 year olds he chained to his basement radiator.

  • LA Guy
  • MadMaxInJerusalem
    • Sergeant J

      Right, but I already don’t have much faith in Christianity.. I don’t care quite as much when secular Christians do this sort of thing as when people who not only claim to be frum, but also claim to have the right to decide who can convert to being a Frum Jew..

  • Moshe Aron Kestenbaum,Williamsburg

    This is by far the most salacious story since Tiger woods. But here is the Caveat Tiger woods aint no rabbi? Rabbi Trooper should now go on and become the the founder of “Hookers For Jesus, Dam this rabbi.

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  • Leib Tropper trying to bury the truth

    I think it’s such a joke. Leib Tropper has apparently hired some PR flack to try to clean up his online image, and so he has a page on every single type of socialmedia that’s out there — calling him a respected Torah educator, in an attempt to bury the google searches that tell the real story with Shannon.

    Thank G-d frumsatire is still way at the top and not going to be buried so fast… Amazing how one can try to rewrite history Which is yet another chillel Hashem… makes one wonder what some so-called rabbis did before there was public access to global communication…When printing presses were controlled by just a mere few.

    Leib Tropper’s alleged behavior is a disgrace and its unbelievable that he would want the world to think he is an authentic respected religious Jew… Leib Tropper the alleged pervert, gives religious Jews and all rabbis a bad name! A real rachmonus on his family (but you cant choose your family, can you?) and a real shanda for the Jewish people.

    • Mazal tov dreidel breath

      Yea stories like this which appear to be way to common these past years, makes it harder and harder to take Rabbinic Judiasm seriously when so many rabbies seem like what the atheists say they are…clowns

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