This video has got to be one of the strangest I have seen in some time – we all know there’s some sort of shidduch crisis, we all know there’s some people who claim the age gap theory, but it seems that everyone just complains rather than come up with solutions. Until the sons of these so called gedolei yisroel practice what they preach and date girls older than them it doesn’t seem like anything will come out proclamations.
Yeshiva World News discovers the cause of the shidduch crisis
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This is the dumbest oversimplification I’ve ever seen
I can understand if each generation gets bigger because if my parents have ten kids, and we each have ten kids and our kids each have ten kids, it makes sense… but how does it make sense that there are more people born in my year than my sister’s year (we are one year apart)?
The one thing I agree with is that girls should not be pressured to get married by 18 with a shelf life of 4 years. They don’t mention it here – but I saw it in another article on “the crisis”. They suggest the girls start dating around age 21-22, the same time that guys start dating. Of course, they kosherfy the idea by suggesting the girls get educated and jobs while they are single so they can support the husband in kollel….
I love the morbid background music, the constant use of the word “tragic” and that the women over 21 are crossed off as if they had died. When I first saw this movie I was sure it was a frum satire creation– but no, this “scientific”presentation on the “shidduch crisis” is genuine representations of an orthodox jewish perspective…
oh, my goodness…so the solution is that men and women have to marry those of the same age?
I’m 22.
Looks to me like I’m screwed.
I actually like the soundtrack…for a movie score, it works better than much of the longer playing films I’ve viewed recently. Who is it?
Dr. Mommy,
Imagine this: There are ten couples. Each couple has ten children, and those ten children each marry. That means that twenty people (the ten couples) have two-hundred counterparts (the ten children and their spouses per original parental couple). Where there were once twenty, are now two-hundred.
So let’s say there is 5% population growth. 100 people this generation will 105 people next generation, etc. So if 20 year-olds marry 21-year olds, then five 21 year olds will go unmarried.
So there is no solution and this has been going on for hundreds of years – so why are people making such a big deal?
I personally think it’s such a big deal because the internet has given voice to everyone to blow it up – so while back in the day this may have happened but no one knew about it.
“Why are people making such a big deal”
The answer is, and always is, that it is about who gets involved.
When no one gets involved, there is no crisis.
When lunatics get involved, there is a crisis.
When lunatics with bad math get involved, there is a crisis that no one can understand.
When lunatics with bad math are so passionate about their own theories that detractors can’t get a word in edgewise, there is a crisis that no one can understand or disagree with without being called part of the problem.
Believe me, I’ve tried to talk to these people.
And as far as getting the famous Rabbis to sign on goes, I’m very unimpressed. I am someone who has the ability to disprove the so-called “age gap theory” and I have not even been able to complete a sentence without being shouted over by the proponents of the theory. They are so successful at shouting down any opposition that as far as the Rabbis know, this theory is an unchallenged fact.
squeak you have the floor, could you please take a few minutes to disprove the so called theory, you will not be interupted.
(I dont really care much about the theory per se, I’m just really curious to here your disproof )
Sure thing. I have discussed this at length on other sites – you can search if you want.
The growth rate is not as staggering as these people would like to believe. The difference in population from one year to the next (or three years) is not significant. It’s nothing more difficult than that. Mathematical modeling demonstrates this. Hospital records will back it up.
The video itself is ridiculous – every year there is one more boy and one more girl born? Showing it in that way is a misrepresentation. They should show the increase to scale. It is precisely this type of misrepresentation of the facts that has me speaking out against them – because I know their heart is in the right place.
And their sample size is 20 schools? What fraction of all schools is that – is it even 1%? What sampling methods were used to select the schools? My guess is they chose the 20 with the greatest shock value.
They showed this at the Agudah Convention!? It boggles the mind.
I wouldnt call that a proof by any stretch of the word, all your doing is claiming they chose schools to increase shock value. If the numbers are real, its pretty shocking, regardless of which schools were chosen.
Beis Yakov class numbers do increase notablly every year, hospital records (which im sure youve checked) are irrelevant as they do not (im assuming, ive never checked) list religion and they deffinitly do not list the level of observence of births
could you please include some links were youve disscussed this at leangth i dont want to make you repeat yourself
thanks
Bob,
I don’t mean to present my opinion as proof. An actual proof would involve either cataloging every Jewish child of a specific level of frumkeit born over a period of say 20 years (near impossible) or developing a robust mathematical model that takes into account hundreds of factors affecting population and running that over a period of 20 years. I do not believe that either form of proof has been done. The burden of proof is on those making the claim. Allow me to rephrase what I said above – replace “disprove” with “discredit”.
In lieu of proof, the proponents of the age gap crisis have offered a mere theory based on poor logic and anecdotal evidence. They then push forward their agenda at a volume so as to deafen anyone giving ear to their detractors. In a fair competition of ideas, this does not hold up.
At the end of the day, this matters because they are using this theory to manipulate people’s dating choices. There’s nothing wrong with close in age shidduchim, but there is no justification for pushing anyone into it. Other bad things they are doing include manipulating rabbonim into signing their name to a letter claiming to know the cause (as shown in the video) when no such thing is in fact known, and creating a crisis mentality that may cause girls to feel desperation.
Shoot, thanks anyway I was excited thought you had proof, turns out you have your theories, and they have theirs and nothing more.
Nobody is being pushed into anything, the way the system is set up people are reluctant to go out with people older PERHAPS again i stress PERHAPS this will remove some of the stigma associated with guys going out with older girls (Im talking only in the yeshivish world their may not be any such stigma outside that world, but look up literature written concerning the show cougar town) though to call it “pressure” is a stretch as this is only so much control roshei yeshiva have over their followers (much to their disappointment). I dont see the harm
Though the dramatic music, did make me laugh, not quite the effect they had in mind id immagine
One more thing, Bob.
Choosing schools with the highest shock value creates a false statistic. Instead of getting an idea for actual the ratio of single girls based on the sample, you have only shown the ratio for those schools. In other words, the statistic is meaningless. Meaningful statistics can be learned from samples if proper sampling techniques are used.
They said that 20 schools had roughly 5300 girls and 735 are unmarried, but if I were to look at 100 schools I would not be surprised the I found 25,000 girls and 1000 unmarried. Because if you start with the worst end of the spectrum and keep adding to the sample, your statistic goes down.
Shoot, i was excited as i thought you had proof turns out you have your theories (that evil roshei yeshiva are trying to take over the world, or at least the shidduch system?) and they have thiers (that too many girls are having trouble finding their bashert and MAYBE just maybe this will help SOME,)
It doesnt really matter if its 11% of all schools that have this problem, If 11% of a handful of schools even of the 20 chosen for shock value is still too much.
I dont understand why people dont like this, as it exists now people are reluctant to go out with girls older than they (at least in the yeshiva-world to whom this is catered, keep in mind this was at the Aguda convention, although from what commenteries ive read prompted by the show “cougar town” it seems that these stigmas arent limited to the yeshiva world). If this helps slightly alleviate some of the stigma, wheres the harm. As for pressure on girls you have the sequence of events backwards, there has been talk of “crises” for a while this “cause” and “solution” are more recent. And to think that this would pressure boys to go out with older girls is laughable, the Roshei Yeshiva wish they had that much power, sadly (in thier view) they dont.
I wrote that quickly, and upon rereading i was embarrsed by my shoddy english and grammer, so just to sum up: Yeshiva guys are reluctant to go out with girls older than they are, or even who are their age, there is a chance that this will help. I dont see the harm
Why should any guy be forced or coerced to go out with older women?
What about the thousands of older unmarried guys? Are they not good enough for these 27 year olds that are considered “over the hill old hags”?
Men have always married younger women, that’s just one of societies norms. Avraham was 9 years older than Sarah, Yitzhak was 37 years older than Rivka and Yaakov was more than 70 years older than his youngest wife, etc, etc.
These YWN clowns and incompetent shadchans need to learn how to count before declaring crisis situations. Honestly, I think it’s just a way for them to up there fees and charge more.
This current situation is entirely the result of stupid attitudes by frummy parents that think they have to find a so called “perfect match”. Everything from family lineage, to high school grades, to physical blemishes is scrutinized. Had our forefathers done the same, we wouldn’t exist today.
Yitzhak married the daughter of an idolater, Yaakov married the daughter of the biggest thief mentioned in the Torah, and Moshe Rabbeinu married the daughter of the priest that tried every avoda zara that existed on earth.
Now that these overly proud and stuck up famillies collectively shot themselves in the foot by being so picky, they’re going to be forced to pull the proverbial stick out of their asses and smell the coffee.
Phil, nobody is being forced to do anything, this just ( may) remove some of the “stigma” associated with what most people view is a silly hinderence to go out (im actually surprised that you think age matters, but youre deffinitly entitled)
It would be harder to remove stigma associated with going out with the sons of idolators and thiefs but maybe someday soon those too will be gone
That is exactly what I am saying. If anything, a generation will increase… not a specific year within a generation. My children’s generation will be larger than mine; 1980s compared to the 2000s. But the amount of people born in 1980 compared to 1981 compared to 1982 is not going to be vastly different. These are people coming from the same parents within the same generation.
Michael,
Let’s do this very slowly, OK?
10 couples, as you say.
10 children per couple, as you say.
10 x 10 = 100. So there are in fact 100 children, not two hundred. And including the parents, there are 120 people.
Bad math is part of the problem.
Squeak, YOUR math is wrong.
I said
Imagine this: There are ten couples. Each couple has ten children, and those ten children each marry. That means that twenty people (the ten couples) have two-hundred counterparts (the ten children and their spouses per original parental couple). Where there were once twenty, are now two-hundred.
Read that again closely.
That means that twenty people (the ten couples) have two-hundred counterparts (the ten children and their spouses per original parental couple).
Ten couples have ten children per couple, as I said. That’s one-hundred children. And if you count their children as well, that’s TWO HUNDRED.
I meant, “And if you count their SPOUSES as well, that’s TWO HUNDRED.”
Where do the spouses come from?
Highly offensive video, in my opinion.
I’m 24 and single and don’t consider myself a “tragedy,” thank you very much.
That’s the tragedy – that we have grown so accustomed to single 24 year olds that it is not a tragedy anymore.
Is it just me or did the music remind anyone else of Titanic (i.e. not getting a Shidduch = dying in a wet and icy grave)? (Well, it is called the freezer..) Maybe the Shidduch “Crisis” has more to do with women deciding for themselves that they want to make their own choices and less with a oversimplified age gap… (Notice how they used the word “girls” and not “women”.) I wonder if these same rabbis have done studies about abuse and awful marriages… probably not. I bet they feel that some things are best left in the freezer.
You are kidding Heshy? 24 is not old! The yeshiva world is sooo out of touch. Why should a girl that age feel as if she has aged out. I hope these young people are selective when it comes to the shidduch stage of their lives. Marry younger, marry older. Mix it up- yeshivish with modern or chassidish.
The whole crisis will end when Heshy gets hitched.
I think the point the Yeshiva World News is trying to make is that a guy who starts dating when he is say, 23 and wants to go out with girls who are 18 is precisely the problem. Why isn’t he looking into a pool of girls his own age? Those 18 year olds are babies and they have a lot of time still, for them to find a shidduch. Girls who are 23 like he is are more sophisticated, more likely to be educated and more ready to be wives and mothers. AND, they are closing to being considered over the hill by their sub-system within society. So YWN is just trying to encourage guys and mothers of single guys to look into dating girls their own age. Interesting how they don’t even suggest though, that they could also very well date girls a year or two older and that would be fine and good too.
Stop hating for no reason. They are just trying to help.
Another question: are those 735 young women (I don’t think it’s appropriate to call them girls) are they all considered fat?
Rivka,
While I agree with you that this is being done with the best of intentions, I don’t think that means they should be allowed to push their agenda foward unchecked. The “solution” is very manipulative.
If they succeed in enforcing same-age marriages (call your congressman!), I foresee the development of a frummie black market in forged birth certificates. “Rabbi, I know she looks 10 years younger than me, but I swear I would never violate the ’shidduch solution’! Here, check her birth certificate”.
lol! I never considered that same age marriages would be enforced. I just got the message that people should begin to change their attitude toward who they are willing to date. Nothing wrong, as I may have mentioned before, with dating a girl a few years older than you, too!
*closer
Sad, sad, sad.. Some women age like a fine wine. And most of the shlumpy yeshiva guys expecting a suga mama should keep their options open anyways, maybe shoot for up to a decade older, since what they are looking for is someone to replace their mom anyways.
As for me, I would date anywhere in a ten year range either side, and I even have a way to pay bills myself!
While they’re at it, can they Save the Cheerleader and Save the World. I think that this music is from the same soundtrack.
What I would love for someone who knows how to count, is explain what happened to the bottom row of guys that were “grayed out” while the equivalent number of girls wre X’d out. Why couldn’t they date each other?
The real crisis is that people are way too picky about petty things before even dating. This so called crisis seems fabricated to me. If there really is a crisis, they should allow men to have multiple wives again.
Phil, because 19 year old guys don’t want to date 25 year old “girls”
Rivka,
Unless I misunderstood the video, it seemed the the guys greyed out at the bottom were the oldest in the group. Did I get it backawards?
Regardless, the whole thing doesn’t make sense, otherwise this would have been going on for the past thousand years or so. How did this just happen over the past 5 -10 years or so?
Simple answer. People are getting pickier. OTD’s, BT’s, Gerim and people with less education aren’t good enough anymore. Everyone has to have a top student from a rich family with big yichus and no record of family illness. All it takes is one silly rumour or facebook post and the shiduch is out the window. Then when they don’t find the perfect match, they fabricate a crisis.
I can’t beleive how the Rabbis and gedolim with all their knowledge fall for this. Simple arithmetic wil show that boys older than the top of the pyramid need wives. Why don’t these 26 year old “old maids” marry them?
OK folks, you don’t want to hear it, but speaking from personal knowledge, a small percentage of the unmarried frum guys are gay and to their credit will not marry a girl no matter how much pressure is exerted by family, friends or rabbis. Many of them can’t or won’t tell too many people their reasons for remaining single. The number of frum gays grows each year as it becomes less of an unmentionable topic in general society and they realize they are gay at an earlier age, find others like themselves, and don’t struggle in silence for years. Those are the lucky ones. There are still those who try to fight their orientation and even get married to unsuspecting women. Is that better?
Avrumy,
The gay theory probably makes more sense than the age thing, but wouldn’t the number of lesbians counter the guys?
I don’t suppose I am entitled to opinion here – when i got married, I was 17 and he was 22 (and we were both each others’ first dates)
I think a small part of the problem is, bottom line, there are more girls than guys. At least in the community where I live there are at least three times as many students in the girls’ schools than in the guys’ schools. And unless guys “pull a Yaakov,” which is probably a bad idea, there will be single girls (how horrifying). But it’s sad, as many others stated, how girls over the age of 22 feel old and/or pressured. Once that attitude is changed we will be one step closer to solving “the crisis”
man those are just regular statistics i dont see what they are getting so worked up about. its like that across the world. some people end up being single their whole lives. unless you want to force everyone to get married to whoever, thats how it is.
Maybe we need to institute polygamy? Time to repeal cherem Rabbeinu Gershom?
This is the proper solution but the gedolim will never seriously consider it. End cherem Rabbeinu Gershom!
Phil – if I recall correctly, there are more gay men than there are gay women.
Even if the numbers were equivalent and would counter-act each other, the single people who are gay would still show up as “singles” on these charts.
Well, it looks like we found another crisis to blame on the gays. Someone should let these YWN rabbis in on the news, they could put out some seriously funny video illustrating how the “one in every minyan” theory caused the shidduch crisis.
I am currently dating a girl a little over a year older than me. It really isn’t that evil.
You should be dating two girls and marry both to be really doing your part.
Bob,
In response to #20 above, enyone is free to date older women, absolutely nothing wrong with it, an no one should be stygmatized if they did.
The problem arises when idiots decide that marrying older women is the “right” thing to do, and will somehow solve the world’s problems, and then concoct silly “crisises” to back up their “farkacked” theory.
These rabbis should be pushing tolerance and understanding of other religious sects, i.e “snags” marrying chassidim, lubabs marrying satmars, sephardim marrying ashkenazim, etc.
Furthermore, they should be emphasizing finding good people instead of looking for rich parents, famous granparents, hair colour and waist size. THAT IS where the shadchans and picky parents have gone completely wrong, and THAT IS the root cause of the problem.
Once people learn to climb out of the bomb shelters they live in, they’ll figure out there is a world out there, the so called crisis will solve itself.
Phil youre absolutly right, any ideas how to get people to change their priorities roshei yeshiva have been trying for years to get people not to care for money, looks that theat is external, fleeting blah blah. Any ideas how to get that message through to yeshiva guys i’d be happy to pas along.
As for tolerance of other religous sects thats not happening any time soon, its clear from your wording that any ill-feelings are mutual if not more slanted against the yeshivsh-crowd.
Bob,,
The Rosh yeshivas talk the talk, but the NEVER walk the walk. All that is good enough for everyone else,but when it comes to their own daughters or sons, it’s back to excatly what they preach against. In other words, the vast majority are total hypocrits when it comes to shidduchim.
I have nothing against any sect in particular. Just so you know, My dad is sephardi from Tunisia, my mom ashkenaz from hungary. They became Lubavith BT’s and that’s where I grew up and live. My sister married a satmar, I my oldest son is set to enter a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva next year. I doubt you’ll find anyone more diverse.
If I use terms like “snag” or “lubab” they are meant to be derogatory.
That was me… new browser without the old cookie.
Again so whats the harm, in removing stigma of dating older girls? I get that you feel its not the root or main cause or even minor cause of the so called crises, but im not following what the harm is?
Bob,
Like I said, there shouldn’t be any stigma. Who the hell cares if she’s older or younger, as long as they are happy together. I was just pointing out the obvious norm that girls are usually younger than their husbands.
Ok im going to got hrought is slowely listing my assumptions and youll tell me which one is wrong, otherwise the conclusin will stand, (keep in mind all these assumptions are strictly concerning the “yeshiva world” as that is to whom the video is directed:
1) people feel uncomfortable or stigmatized to date older girls or girls close to their age
2) there is the tiniest of chances that some people might feel less reluctant to go out with girls there age , once their roshei yeshiva say its a good thing. (Bonus game: I counted at least 5 qualifiers in that sentence, see if you can find more)
If these two assumptions are true it seems like a great idea (I;’m not talking about the actual video with the morbid soundtrack that was hilarious, probably not the effect they had in mind) for those who think the idea is ridicoulus which assumption do you disagree with, or am i overlooking something?
Are you helping the situation by calling it a “crisis’ and a “tragedy”
Who caused this crisis and tragedy in the first place
Why didn’t we have these tragedies and crisis 20, 30, 40 years ago???
Dating was a normal procedure, boys and girls saw one another and were attracted, no one checked the plastic tablecloth, checkbook, etc. Couples worked and struggled and built a life and were successful. Frumkeit was more sincere, none of this phony checking— I could go on and on–it’s become an ugly situation against all Torah teachings.
But this is not 20 or 30 years ago this is now and things have changed, in my opinion it is just an evolution of the way things are – like anything else – things change. Dating changes, the way people marry changes and so on…does that mean it’s a crisis? Maybe – since the only way we are going to move on as a people is to repopulate – but no one has numbers – people judge on the few large singles communities and people they know – what if the boys numbers are the same as the girls?
Heshy,
Your comment is by far the best analysis of the situation.
It’s not “politically correct” to lay blame on any person. Saying someone is “too picky” or “too demanding” or “not good enough” or “not yeshivish/modern/worldly enough” or “looking in the wrong places” is fighting words. But people know a lot of singles, how do you explain that? Well, numbers are blameless – it’s nobody’s fault that girls are single, because there just aren’t any guys for them. Believable or not, it makes for an easy way to explain the situation. Nothing new under the sun, except the need to absolve everyone of blame and responsibility and still find a villian.
Sometimes there is no villain, in this case it may just be the natural ebb and flow of the community. One of the things I hate most is when people who are completely ignorant of shtetl history blame the judging and stereotyping. If you read a little bit into how things worked back in the day, people married their own kind – no one could imagine a shoe makers daughter marrying a Tailors son – they davened at their own shuls, and kept to their own professions.
We live in a time where Yekke’s marry Ungarish and Chassidim marry Misnagdim, it’s unbelievable how much things have changed.
Good for change. Maybe more is needed, perhaps?
I also thought this info-video was a satire until I saw who the sponsor was. As I can see and as former comments already mentioned, the main flaw in the video is that its statistics assume that the same number of eligible men exist as they do for women. Aside from any birthrate statistics, it does not take into consideration the amount of young men who leave the fold, or as ultra-orthodox like to coin it, “go off the derech”. From statistics I have seen, it is generally believed that the ratio of young men versus young women assimilating is quite high.
Also, there may be other social factors, such as a growing divorce rate even among the ultra-orthodox, that may be playing a role. The video only mentions that they are “single” without any indication if they were previously married.
Although this is video is an oversimplification of the situation, the statement that single men should consider dating women of their age is well taken, assuming that this matchmaking organization is simply relating their own struggle with the problem themselves that many of the men on their roster are reluctant to do just that.
I am not saying that 14% percent is a number that should ignored, but how do we know this amount is higher than in previous decades? Perhaps, due to population growth, we are simply exposed to more people, which means, to more single people as well.
So this is a tragedy !! A young choson jumping out of a hotel window because the was molested at a young age isn’t a tragedy. How sad !!
I’m waiting for that video.
I was there, the next video shown was about how molesting young children isnt a tragedy.