Comments on: Thanksgiving: another Modern Orthodox vs. Frummie holiday

By: bob

bob — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:11:24 +0000

Sorry i havent been clear, I’ll walk you through it slowly: Chukas hagoyim is a real issur, it has nothing to do with wasting time or doing unnescery things. Obviously, doing anything of idolatrous nature is prohibited. In addition the Ramah (this is from memory and i dont have any seforim in front of me which is why i cant give you the exact source) adds that anything goyim do without reason is prohibited because we are afraid its source is idolatry. R’ Moshe has a unique understanding of the Ramah, that doing something without knowing the reason is inherentlly avodah zarah. The difference between the two undersatndings would be if we dont know the reason for a goyish custom but its not avoda zarah. According to the simple understanding of the Ramah it would not violate the issur of chukas hagoyim, since it isnt avoda zarah. However according to r’ Moshe it would still be prohibited since we dont know the reason. Eating turkey on Thanksgiving because the Pilgrims ate it is not a good reason (in r’ Moshes view) in other words it is a silly custom without a real reason for doing it. Again according to simple understanding of the Ramah, it would still be fine since it isnt avoda zarah. Of course eating turkey becasue its delicous or on sale would not be a problem, even according to R’ moshe.
You arent forced to follow r’ moshe theres no reason to get upset but at least now i hope you understand his reasoning

By: Effy

Effy — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:43:18 +0000

Thanks, and I have to clarify something and disagree with you on a couple of things…. I distinguish between judging people and ideas. Ideas I will criticize, pull apart every which way and I expect and want challenges to my ideas as well, its part of learning and part of getting to the truth. The only reason I was talking about judging PEOPLE is becuase you told me to give you some examples you could clarify and you used the word “problem” I just wanted to clarify that I have no “problem” with chassidm. Once again with vaugh naucht I was just giving you one example for you to explain, because you were willing to explain it.

I have to disagree with you that your post didn’t have anything to do with hashkafa. You used the phrase “well grounded”. This is a subjective phrase. The interpertation of this phrase is going to be guided by a person’s hashkafa. My whole point is that something that is not an obvious avodah zarah, that if “well grounded” is the guidlines, which are very unspecific, it implies, to me anyways, that there is room for some personal choice there. And yes, the way it has been explained to me by you, in this sense, I feel to be a ridulous idea for a Rav to poskin for everyone what “well grounded” means.

To further prove my point, my interpertation of something not being “well grounded” was that it was superflous or unnesiccary. This was shaped by my time in Yeshiva… examples, the laws regarding making unnessicary books, against spending time idlly, the moshicah got up one day and said “Religous Jews Don’t Socialize”. So once again, who is to say what well grounded means, and once again, I am only reacting to information that you are feeding me.

By: bob

bob — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:31:23 +0000

The reason I pointed out your lack of expertise in halacha was this qoute “if there are no decisions left up to the individual, where is free will? Where is the test?” by which i assumed you meant that we (non-experts) can figure out halacha on our own and dont need a rabbi. I’m sorry if i misunderstood you, but since my post had nothing to do with hashkafa im not sure what else you could have meant. Rav Moshe is allowed to hold its assur. You can argue but dont call his reasons “an absolutely ridiculous argument, ” keep trying not to judge you need a lot of work (I need work on trying to try not to judge).
In regard to vach nacht I will look into it, but you are missing the point. Rav Moshe doesnt say thanksgiving is assur because it is superflous, rather because it comes from goyim, vach nacht (to the best of my knowledge) does not.
And as for what others have written, i cant explain their posts i just explained why R’ Moshe says its assur and (indirectly) why most say its mutar. you commented on my post.
Mazel tov on your bris

By: Effy

Effy — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:39:07 +0000

Uhm, thanks for pointing out I’m not an expert in haluchah, I think thats obvious, why you did I have no idea. Actually I do have an idea but I’m gonna keep that to myself. But I will ask the question: are you trying to say that an expert on haluchah wouldn’t himself consult with a rav on an issue of haluchah? Some issues, yes, some issues no, he would be confident on going to an obvious source(book),same as I do, each of us do according to our level and the issue.

One of the comments on here said that as Jews we thank G-d constantly so taking Thanksgiving to stop and thank G-d was sort of redundant.
Now I don’t say the customs bother ME persae, I am just saying that an argument can be made for some of them on the grounds that they are superflous, the same argument being used against thanksgiving.

So I am saying if you are gonna use that argument with thanksgiving you can use the same argument against some minhagim. Not that it bothers me, I’m not Chassdish and I try as hard as I can not to judge, I’m just saying the argument can be made. And I will make

CASE IN POINT : Vocht Nocht (sp). Staying up and learning all night/having an oneg the night before your son’s bris.

Now I will relate my own personal “bris” experience with this issue. Mine was done in a hospital so i had to go get “the poke”. I asked the Rabbi (who was a direct talmid of Shlomo Zalman Auerbach & not only a haluchuch expert but an authority on some complicated issues) if there is anything specific I should meditate on or study the night before (not ever hearing of a vocht naucht) and he told me no. Now I was hoping he would have something meaningful to say, buy he just said no, indicating that it was the act of the bris itself important and nothing else was required. Now explain to me the point of a vocht naucht, and explain to me how it is not superflous since it is not mandated by haluchah.

By: bob

bob — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:53:21 +0000

Effy, first of all R’ moshe would probably agree that many chassidish minhagim are chukas hagoyim.
I’m sorry if I wasnt clear the problem with chukas hagoyim is with adopting customs of non-jewish origin (again: unless they have a good reason – R Moshe; or as long as they are not of idolatrous origin – almost all other poskim). Thanksgiving is obviously of non-jewish origin therfore according to R’ Moshe (again most disagree) since he feels the reason is not well grounded it is forbidden to adopt it as a custom.
Im not sure what other customs that you dont know the reasons for has to do with anything, that is a question as to why those are allowed, it is not an argument to allow for thanksgiving. Though youd be surprised that most of ourcustoms do have reasons you can look up in taamei minhagim or “rite and reason (english)” If there are any particular ones that bother you I’d be more than happy to research them (after finals).
And lastly i deffinatly agree with you that rabbi-worship has gone to far, but only in non-halachic matters. In halacha (unless you are an expert which frankly you are not) you should turn to an expert.

By: Effy

Effy — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:41:09 +0000

With all due respect to the late Rav, this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. All you do is have to look around at all the extrainious minhaggim that don’t have a well grounded reason. Mostly from Chassidis (which didn’t exists before three hundred years ago) many of these minhaggim have been adopted by Judaism as a whole. Now I’m sorry but there is nothing lacking in the Torah, and I have found much “Chassidic Thought” quite arbitrary or just restatements of what is allready in the Torah or Gemarah with a Rav’s ideas blended into it.

Sometimes the “grounded reasons” for things are false, and living in the orthodox community for several years, coming from the outside I have noticed the tendency of people to twist Torah around to justify their own personal actions or whims. The idea of a “well grounded” reason is subjective and on a day to day (in my opinion) basis is a personal choice. Thanksgiving is not avodah zarah, to declare it assour for everyone because of a person’s subjective opinion is absolutely ridiculous. If you think I am discounting follow a Rav, I am not, but this culture of Rabbi worship has gone too far, if there are no decisions left up to the individual, where is free will? Where is the test?

By: bob

bob — Wed, 02 Dec 2009 00:58:41 +0000

A Nuran, its interesting that you seem to know more about Christianity than Judaism, “Chukas hogoyim” has nothing to do with something being an innovation by goyim. It is only if the source is idolatry (simple understanding of ramah) R’ Moshe Feinstein has his own understanding of the concept as anything which doesnt have a well grounded reason for doing, he doesnt accept the Piligrim story as a well grounded reason and therefore holds Thansgiving is assur. Flush toilets are not idolatrous in nature, and they definitely have a well grounded reason.

By: Avrumy

Avrumy — Tue, 01 Dec 2009 14:21:08 +0000

Many immigrants living here tell me that Thanksgiving is their favorite American holiday. No religion, no presents; just family and friends getting together to enjoy some time off, a nice meal and the chance to reflect on the strife, poverty and religious, social, economic and sexual persecutions they left behind in their countries of birth and to give thanks that they got away from all that. Just like our Jewish ancestors did when they reached these shores.

To argue in any way against Jews celebrating Thanksgiving is ignorance. But ignorance is bliss, so it is a win-win situation. Thank goodness.

By: Avrumy

Avrumy — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:57:41 +0000

Many immigrants living in our great country tell me that Thanksgiving is their favorite American holiday. No religion, no presents; just family and friends getting together to enjoy some time off, a nice meal and the chance to reflect on the strife, poverty and religious, social, economic and sexual persecutions they left behind in their countries of birth and to give thanks that they got away from all that. Just like our Jewish ancestors did when they reached these shores.
To argue in any way against Jews celebrating Thanksgiving is ignorance. But ignorance is bliss, so it is a win-win situation. Thank goodness.