It may be different with the people you know, but in my circle I have noticed one thing to be true – that the modern orthodox folks I know are much more likely to celebrate Thanksgiving than the frummies I know and that got me thinking. It got me thinking about how the frummies like to be strict when it comes to things that are actually Torah related and how the modern like to take things on as extra that aren’t always Torah related.
Take Thanksgiving for example, no matter which way you pull it, it’s a secular holiday, I tink it’s nice to have a meal – gather the family around, watch some football, throw back a few cold one’s, but that’s not too Jewish. I also believe in the concept of having a suedas hodah to give thanks to God for providing this wonderful place for us to live in relative peace without porgroms and blood libels.
If you’re really frum, you don’t even acknowledge that it exists and you throw names at it and call the people who do celebrate it, kofrim. Then there are those that have Turkey on Friday night, I love those people, because I end up getting to eat two Thanksgiving meals. Then you have those that go out to eat, or make it a night on the town and of course you have folks like me that go wherever the best invite is to.
Thanksgiving is not alone when it comes to the Modern Orthodox doing extra things that were not asked of them. Take Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut, I myself like to keep davening as short as possible – but I guess they like lengthen it.
You also have Shir Hamalos, I never see frummies saying that last portion of it, the Hodu part – but modern people always say it. What about the prayer for Israel and the Government, and maybe your shul says hatikva or acheinu after davening? All of this extra stuff, while the frummies only do extra stuff (in theory – although most of the sensationalist chumras and bans are not halacha and just hagwash) that is written about in the Torah/oral law.
Or am I just dreaming?
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{ 49 comments… read them below or add one }
The Rav believed that it is a secular holiday that we may celebrate without issue. Happy Thanksgiving to all. I give thanks to Hashem for allowing me to live in a country that allows me to practice Yiddishkeit any way I choose. I hope you enjoy your meal and the company of your hosts tomorrow Heshie.
I got a half-o-turkey coming up Friday night.
Could be argued it’s chukas goyim.
“Chukas Goyim” is abysmally stupid Hebrew term which roughly translates to “I am an idolator. Whatever keeps me in my happy familiar rut is the raw gum 200 proof Will of G-d. Whatever I’m not personally comfortable with is Sin and Blasphemy.”
The tribal costumes worn by the Chasids are all absolutely “Chukas Goyim”. So are electricity, cars, flush toilets, candles, distilled liquor, shoes, pants, penicillin, silk, compasses, double entry bookkeeping, rubber, glass windows and mirrors, faceted jewels, anesthesia, the idea of zero, sod busting plows, steel, pianos, pants, shirts, violins, bound books, rocking chairs, three-masted ships, obligatory monogamy for men, singing in harmony, reading silently, potatoes and pasteurized milk.
Yiddish is a bastardized form of German. The Hebrew and Aramaic scripts the Torah and Talmud are inscribed in come directly from the written language of *shudder* polytheistic Canaanite Gentiles.
Almost everything we consider Jewish is “Chukas Goyim”. Our ancestors would look at every aspect of our lives like we came from another planet.
I know you love the Friday night turkey.
As a Limey – I don’t know much about Thanksgiving. However, I can’t see what can possibly be wrong with it. It’s basis, as far as I know, is giving thanks to HaShem for the end of the harvest season. Sounds good to me.
Much more problematic is celebrating Christmas (oops, should that be Cratzmas?) with a slap-up turkey dinner.
A. Nuran – I think your second paragraph (apart from its first line) is being a little bit unfair. You know as well as I do that ‘Chukas goyim’ refers to manners of behaviour and specifically cultural issues, not toilets.
We do have a holiday at the end of the Harvest season – it is called Sukkos (Sukot) and we have a holiday to commemorate being saved from persecution, its called Chanukah (Hanuka) and Purim.
It’s not unfair at all.
Every one of these things is a Goyishe innovation which changed the world.
Every one of them has profound and undeniable effects on customs, dress, lifestyle and behaviour including ours.
The acceptance of every single one of these represents a choice on the part of Yidden that the prohibitions against adopting Gentile customs extends precisely as far as the posek’s desire for physical or psychic comfort.
Flush toilets, just to choose your favorite example, made modern cities possible and have reduced childhood mortality from waterborne disease to the point where a “traditional” yid can expect all ten or twelve of her kids to survive to adulthood, not just two or three. The whole “low birth, low death”, urban, wage-labor, small home, economic specialization package rests on the Goyishe innovation of modern sanitation. It demolished our traditional superstitions about disease and the primitive magic we came up with in an attempt to combat what we could not understand.
Magic like ritually washing hands in blessed (but still filthy) water, amulets against sickness demons, saying tehillim to ward off sickness, special incantations against cholera and more were important parts of Jewish life not that long ago. We have abandoned them because we adopted the sanitary customs of Gentiles.
That’s just one light touch on one of them. The most avid mikvah-dunking, shofar-tootling Chasid and the sternest Mitnagdist are radically different than their fourteenth century CE counterparts let alone fourth. This is despite heroic/insane (take your pick) efforts to pretend otherwise.
The Jews who most closely resemble Real Torah Jews™ are the Ethiopians. Until they were brought to Israel they inhabited a world and lived a life very much like our ancestors of 2000 years ago. Their outlook was like a Bronze Age Hebrew’s. Their world and the ways they made a living were pretty much the same. The Hebrew they used in liturgy was much purer than the current rabbinically approved product. Their customs were smack in line with what we know about the Ancients’ from the way families did animal sacrifices to women moving out of the house to a special hut during their periods.
The reason modern Jews, especially the self-proclaimed “Orthodox”, so despise the Beit Yisroeli is precisely because we have absorbed twenty five hundred years of Gentile cultures. Moses didn’t dress like a sixteenth century Yid-hating Polack Count. We only began sneering at shepherds when we began to ape the manners of our cow-loving, sheep-hating Babylonian Masters. Communal prayer was something we picked up from Gentiles. It was never even vaguely part of Torah.
Pretty much everything we recognize as “Jewish” today is profoundly affected by our adoption of local customs.
We only pretend these things are Jewish because it is what we’re used to and what we’re personally comfortable with. It is a romantic snapshot which has the thin end of bugger-all to the customs or mindset of Solomon the Wise let alone Avraham of Ur. They would feel about as much kinship with today’s Torah Jews as we would with a Martian. Less, actually. Half a millennium of science and a century of science fiction has prepared today’s Yid for the idea of Martians.
“You also have Shir Hamalos, I never see frummies saying that last portion of it, the Hodu part – but modern people always say it.”
I thought it was the other way around. Shir Hamaalos is so Zionist-sounding that the charedim had to add the “Hodu” verses to make it frummer! Which fits with my experience.
Talk about abbriviated prayer..nobody beats Chabad. There is no Veshamru on Friday night. Ditto that for Shir HaShirim, Akdomos and the other post Mossaic prophets.
And it seems that every time they are about to say tachnun someone thinks of another Rebbe that got out of jail on that day
Haha! That happened at minyan this morning!
Three men walked into a bar, a Rabbi, an ex-con and a tax cheat.
And that was just the first one…
C’mon it’s not as bad as the way I first heard that one….
“… a Priest, a pedophile and a rapist…”
Or…
“Three Englishmen walked out of a bar. Hey, it could happen.”
You guys left out the people who have a problem with eating turkey anytime! There are frummies who say that there is no misora to eat turkey and that its not kosher.
There is no mesorah Turkey is so treife, I only eat it if the people serving it wear black hats
There are also frummies who say that the Sun goes around the Earth, bananas are kitniyot, looking at your wife’s Holy of Holies causes birth defects and it’s okay to cheat Gentiles.
Every group has people who may not be divorced from Reality but have already moved out and started dating other ontological precepts.
There’s nothing WRONG with Thanksgiving, but why do it if you don’t have to?
Because its fun and its a good excuse to eat with family who you never see
“its a good excuse to eat with family who you never see”??????? Hesh, you need to get married. Then let’s see if you still think this is a good idea.
Thanksgiving may well turn out to be the reason my youngest sister and I develop a relationship based on something besides mutual loathing and barely concealed rage. No. I’m not exaggerating. So yes, it’s a good thing.
I don’t have family so, it’s a non issue for me.
I know a frummy woman who went into labor the night after one year. They asked her what was the last thing she ate and she said, “pizza.” I think they looked her funny.
I had pizza last night also. To be fair, I was going to have chicken, but the KFC near my house was closed.
yeh, i dont “really” celebrate it cuz i think we’ve got enough holidays already. lol. but i do sometimes take advantage of the fact that bunches of ppl are off for the break and hang out. but its definitely a secular holiday. the “religious” thnaksgiving was held by the puritans only twice, in 1619 and 1621, and it was in the spring/summer. it was sometimes celebrated of and on for the next 200 yrs but simply as a generic “giving thanks” holiday with no pilgrim association or as celebration of military victories and was again, usually in the spring/summer. thanksgiving didnt hit the fall season until after the civil war when lincoln declared a day of thanksgiving for those soldiers who had returned home alive. if this doesnt scrub away any notion of it being secular YET, then the final straw should be that FDR decided to plant a holiday at the last week of november to allow department store to get rid of excess merchandise before xmas [hence "black friday"] so he just brought the earlier in november lincoln thanskgiving down a couple weeks.
honestly, there’s more of a problem celebrating mother’s day, as that was an ACTUAL religious holiday–complete with mass and everything–where european villagers, instead of going to their little “shteibel” churches, would go to the main cathedral–or “mother” church. the rest of the day was then spent visiting family. and so mother’s day was born.
Thanksgiving is done a few dozen times a day by observant Jews, so “celebrating” thanksgiving does make it seem kind of redundant.
First time I was in the US for it, I was staying over at these people living in upstate NY. I was shocked that they celebrated this “goyish” holiday. Then I found out that it was mainstream American.
In Canada, nobody makes a big deal out of it, just another excuse to get paid for not showing up to work.
Phil, Thanksgiving in Canada started off as a much more generic thing. Thanksgiving in the States – I believe the Brits call it “Good Riddance Day” – is closely tied to a specific celebration by the Puritans of New England.
Here’s my case. We have a holiday, that isn’t just American but a worldwide holiday now, where people take time to reflect on what they are thankful for. Now I have heard enough ridculous BT shuirim claiming athiests believe in G-d because they say “oh my G-d” or some other silly “proof” like that.. Let’s take this “proof” as absoute truth and run with it.
So I’m gonna say, who are these peoplet thankful to? Well G-d of course!! (even if they don’t realize it: i’m invoking my BT shiur learning here) So here is a holiday that could help bring moshiac (everyone thanking G-d at the same time) and some haredi walking chillul hashem is gonna tell me I’m a goy for promoting a G-dly holiday. Well fuck you frummie, the Shechinah does not only rest under Borsolino hats, and you don’t have a monopoly on G-dlyness.
Effy-
good post man, i have heard many many christians use the same logic about jesus. because some say “oh jesus christ” when you smack your head on something. I simply point out that it is because of popular culture that people do that not because of religion. people in china don’t say jesus christ when they step on a nail… really using such coloquialism is like saying one of the equal replacement for such an exclaimer “oh shit”, or “Damn it! ”
but to your point on thanksgiving, about it being a time to say Toda Raba to Hashem, sure why not. I see nothing wrong with thanksgiving, and i get together with people every year. But for me personally I dont think anything of it, on a spiritual sense much at all, i just hang out and eat laugh play games with friends.
its good to me to celibrate those holidays because on our yontifs you cant drive you can barely cook, its mostly a time for kedushah. thanksgiving, the 4th of july, may day, memorial day,labor day, etc are all times you get a day off to relax, or to get things done otherwise you normally don’t have time for… and you do not have to worry about turning the lights on or off.
don’t get me wrong i love shabbos, and yontifs, but to have a day off you don’t have to go to shul for 3-5 hours and can toss a ball around with friends or hang out with family in a more relaxed less structured setting, is good too…. that is why i like those american holidays, it gives one balance. a hundred years ago shabbos was not much different than regular life, many people didn’t have electricity, but in todays culture, shabbos is like one day of culture shock, which to me is good because shabbos is part of that balance, i hope you get what i mean with out thinking i am an apikoros….
none the less good point.
Frum Ger -
Why not say Jesus Christ? If you don’t believe he was god then you aren’t taking god’s name in vain.
Dr. Dave, I’m pretty sure no one believes Jesus was god. Christians believe he was the son of god, but not god.
Anyway, as far as I know, Orthodox Jews generally won’t refer to Jesus by name because 1. they don’t want to get involved in possible idolatry, 2. because the verse says (i’m paraphrasing) “the name of the wicked will rot”, 3. because of the belief that saying the name of something gives spiritual power to that entity.
As far as I understand it, at the council of Nicia (sp?) in the year (300?). This is an oversimplification I’m sure but the way I understand it various christian groups got together and decided to start what became the catholic church. Each group had differnet beliefs and got to through their 2 cents in. One of the groups believed that yushka was G-d incarnate, and that was what they got to throw in the pot. Christian docrtine, catholic or protestant both dictate that yushka is G-d incarnate, that G-d acutally put himself in the form of a man and allowed himself to be killed. Part of their “trinity” wtich splits G-d into 3 parts, G-d, the Shechinah (holy ghost they call it), and yushka, all part of the same tri-un G-d.
Now, if you talk to your average Christian on the street they will tell you that this is nonsense, and they don’t believe that yushka was G-d incarnate. The next question I have is why do they call themselves Christians if the only thing that binds them to it is the acceptance of the dogma, if they don’t accept the dogma?
The belief that Jesus is fully God is normative Christian belief.
Where do you get the notion that Christians don’t believe this?
I got the notion by speaking with educated Christians about their faith and education.
Jesus is the only path to be saved because humans can’t save themselves, but Jesus is not god.
Of course, I could be wrong… but that’s how it was explained to me.
It’s basic Christian theology.
Whoever explained it to you was wrong.
All of the major branches of Christianity are Trinitarian which means they believe that Yeshu ben Maryam is quite literally G-d. They add some peculiar “G-d in three Persons” language. But it comes down to a firm belief that he is “G-d the Son”.
This wasn’t always true. The Copts are still monotheists. But they are a small and dwindling minority.
Did anyone give it thought that the holiday was initiated by a religious group escaping persecution; based the religious “thank yous” on the Jewish holiday of Sukkot because they had nothing in their own religion that came close to it, and created the opportunity for us to celebrate it or not?
wasn’t the 17C a little late in the day to start thinking of adapting Sukkot?
but, yes, Thanksgiving was first a harvest festival…
Many immigrants living in our great country tell me that Thanksgiving is their favorite American holiday. No religion, no presents; just family and friends getting together to enjoy some time off, a nice meal and the chance to reflect on the strife, poverty and religious, social, economic and sexual persecutions they left behind in their countries of birth and to give thanks that they got away from all that. Just like our Jewish ancestors did when they reached these shores.
To argue in any way against Jews celebrating Thanksgiving is ignorance. But ignorance is bliss, so it is a win-win situation. Thank goodness.
Many immigrants living here tell me that Thanksgiving is their favorite American holiday. No religion, no presents; just family and friends getting together to enjoy some time off, a nice meal and the chance to reflect on the strife, poverty and religious, social, economic and sexual persecutions they left behind in their countries of birth and to give thanks that they got away from all that. Just like our Jewish ancestors did when they reached these shores.
To argue in any way against Jews celebrating Thanksgiving is ignorance. But ignorance is bliss, so it is a win-win situation. Thank goodness.
A Nuran, its interesting that you seem to know more about Christianity than Judaism, “Chukas hogoyim” has nothing to do with something being an innovation by goyim. It is only if the source is idolatry (simple understanding of ramah) R’ Moshe Feinstein has his own understanding of the concept as anything which doesnt have a well grounded reason for doing, he doesnt accept the Piligrim story as a well grounded reason and therefore holds Thansgiving is assur. Flush toilets are not idolatrous in nature, and they definitely have a well grounded reason.
With all due respect to the late Rav, this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. All you do is have to look around at all the extrainious minhaggim that don’t have a well grounded reason. Mostly from Chassidis (which didn’t exists before three hundred years ago) many of these minhaggim have been adopted by Judaism as a whole. Now I’m sorry but there is nothing lacking in the Torah, and I have found much “Chassidic Thought” quite arbitrary or just restatements of what is allready in the Torah or Gemarah with a Rav’s ideas blended into it.
Sometimes the “grounded reasons” for things are false, and living in the orthodox community for several years, coming from the outside I have noticed the tendency of people to twist Torah around to justify their own personal actions or whims. The idea of a “well grounded” reason is subjective and on a day to day (in my opinion) basis is a personal choice. Thanksgiving is not avodah zarah, to declare it assour for everyone because of a person’s subjective opinion is absolutely ridiculous. If you think I am discounting follow a Rav, I am not, but this culture of Rabbi worship has gone too far, if there are no decisions left up to the individual, where is free will? Where is the test?
Effy, first of all R’ moshe would probably agree that many chassidish minhagim are chukas hagoyim.
I’m sorry if I wasnt clear the problem with chukas hagoyim is with adopting customs of non-jewish origin (again: unless they have a good reason – R Moshe; or as long as they are not of idolatrous origin – almost all other poskim). Thanksgiving is obviously of non-jewish origin therfore according to R’ Moshe (again most disagree) since he feels the reason is not well grounded it is forbidden to adopt it as a custom.
Im not sure what other customs that you dont know the reasons for has to do with anything, that is a question as to why those are allowed, it is not an argument to allow for thanksgiving. Though youd be surprised that most of ourcustoms do have reasons you can look up in taamei minhagim or “rite and reason (english)” If there are any particular ones that bother you I’d be more than happy to research them (after finals).
And lastly i deffinatly agree with you that rabbi-worship has gone to far, but only in non-halachic matters. In halacha (unless you are an expert which frankly you are not) you should turn to an expert.
Uhm, thanks for pointing out I’m not an expert in haluchah, I think thats obvious, why you did I have no idea. Actually I do have an idea but I’m gonna keep that to myself. But I will ask the question: are you trying to say that an expert on haluchah wouldn’t himself consult with a rav on an issue of haluchah? Some issues, yes, some issues no, he would be confident on going to an obvious source(book),same as I do, each of us do according to our level and the issue.
One of the comments on here said that as Jews we thank G-d constantly so taking Thanksgiving to stop and thank G-d was sort of redundant.
Now I don’t say the customs bother ME persae, I am just saying that an argument can be made for some of them on the grounds that they are superflous, the same argument being used against thanksgiving.
So I am saying if you are gonna use that argument with thanksgiving you can use the same argument against some minhagim. Not that it bothers me, I’m not Chassdish and I try as hard as I can not to judge, I’m just saying the argument can be made. And I will make
CASE IN POINT : Vocht Nocht (sp). Staying up and learning all night/having an oneg the night before your son’s bris.
Now I will relate my own personal “bris” experience with this issue. Mine was done in a hospital so i had to go get “the poke”. I asked the Rabbi (who was a direct talmid of Shlomo Zalman Auerbach & not only a haluchuch expert but an authority on some complicated issues) if there is anything specific I should meditate on or study the night before (not ever hearing of a vocht naucht) and he told me no. Now I was hoping he would have something meaningful to say, buy he just said no, indicating that it was the act of the bris itself important and nothing else was required. Now explain to me the point of a vocht naucht, and explain to me how it is not superflous since it is not mandated by haluchah.
The reason I pointed out your lack of expertise in halacha was this qoute “if there are no decisions left up to the individual, where is free will? Where is the test?” by which i assumed you meant that we (non-experts) can figure out halacha on our own and dont need a rabbi. I’m sorry if i misunderstood you, but since my post had nothing to do with hashkafa im not sure what else you could have meant. Rav Moshe is allowed to hold its assur. You can argue but dont call his reasons “an absolutely ridiculous argument, ” keep trying not to judge you need a lot of work (I need work on trying to try not to judge).
In regard to vach nacht I will look into it, but you are missing the point. Rav Moshe doesnt say thanksgiving is assur because it is superflous, rather because it comes from goyim, vach nacht (to the best of my knowledge) does not.
And as for what others have written, i cant explain their posts i just explained why R’ Moshe says its assur and (indirectly) why most say its mutar. you commented on my post.
Mazel tov on your bris
Thanks, and I have to clarify something and disagree with you on a couple of things…. I distinguish between judging people and ideas. Ideas I will criticize, pull apart every which way and I expect and want challenges to my ideas as well, its part of learning and part of getting to the truth. The only reason I was talking about judging PEOPLE is becuase you told me to give you some examples you could clarify and you used the word “problem” I just wanted to clarify that I have no “problem” with chassidm. Once again with vaugh naucht I was just giving you one example for you to explain, because you were willing to explain it.
I have to disagree with you that your post didn’t have anything to do with hashkafa. You used the phrase “well grounded”. This is a subjective phrase. The interpertation of this phrase is going to be guided by a person’s hashkafa. My whole point is that something that is not an obvious avodah zarah, that if “well grounded” is the guidlines, which are very unspecific, it implies, to me anyways, that there is room for some personal choice there. And yes, the way it has been explained to me by you, in this sense, I feel to be a ridulous idea for a Rav to poskin for everyone what “well grounded” means.
To further prove my point, my interpertation of something not being “well grounded” was that it was superflous or unnesiccary. This was shaped by my time in Yeshiva… examples, the laws regarding making unnessicary books, against spending time idlly, the moshicah got up one day and said “Religous Jews Don’t Socialize”. So once again, who is to say what well grounded means, and once again, I am only reacting to information that you are feeding me.
Sorry i havent been clear, I’ll walk you through it slowly: Chukas hagoyim is a real issur, it has nothing to do with wasting time or doing unnescery things. Obviously, doing anything of idolatrous nature is prohibited. In addition the Ramah (this is from memory and i dont have any seforim in front of me which is why i cant give you the exact source) adds that anything goyim do without reason is prohibited because we are afraid its source is idolatry. R’ Moshe has a unique understanding of the Ramah, that doing something without knowing the reason is inherentlly avodah zarah. The difference between the two undersatndings would be if we dont know the reason for a goyish custom but its not avoda zarah. According to the simple understanding of the Ramah it would not violate the issur of chukas hagoyim, since it isnt avoda zarah. However according to r’ Moshe it would still be prohibited since we dont know the reason. Eating turkey on Thanksgiving because the Pilgrims ate it is not a good reason (in r’ Moshes view) in other words it is a silly custom without a real reason for doing it. Again according to simple understanding of the Ramah, it would still be fine since it isnt avoda zarah. Of course eating turkey becasue its delicous or on sale would not be a problem, even according to R’ moshe.
You arent forced to follow r’ moshe theres no reason to get upset but at least now i hope you understand his reasoning