Walking down the street in Los Angeles, a little blond seven-year-old Jewish girl sees a black Orthodox Jewish man in a black suit, black hat, white shirt and tzitzit flying in the wind.
“Wow, that’s weird,” she says to her mother.
Her white Jewish mother holds her breath waiting for the next statement.
“Did you see that, Mom?” she says tugging on her mother’s sleeve. “That rabbi’s wearing an IPOD!”
Aliza Hausman is a Dominican-American Latina and Orthodox Jewish convert (Jewminicana for short!), freelance writer, blogger (at “Memoirs of a Jewminicana”) and speaker.
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{ 67 comments… read them below or add one }
Cute! True?
Completely!
I love it!!!!
It’s a post-racial world, my kids also have no idea in their heads that people ever thought that people with brown skin were different than people with beige skin!
Mark. Yes it is . What a wonderful world we live in. Niggers and Kikes are people nowadays , just look at the whitehouse, a black president and all jew staff what could be better ? I just wish Google could stop those dumb disclaimers on Michelle Obama or Jew search results.
The world is obviously a very diverse place. Why, even something as obscure as this corner of the Internet attracts human beings and inbred mouth-breathing no-neck moronic crackers.
I second that A. Nuron with a motion to move it into absolute truth!
good stuff love the post
Wish we were post racial for real. A good number of people are but so many aren’t that when they come across an adult who was brought up post-racially (and I was, child of semi-hippy BTs that I am) they can’t get their heads around it.
Great post by the way.
The frum community will never be post racial
You’ll never be “post prick”, that’s for sure.
He does have a point though. There is a certain air of elitism in the frum communities in most placees that will make it hard for any of the communities as a hole to get out of the rut that adopting the racism of host nations (past and present) for centuries has put them in. Judaism as a culture has adopted some crappy attitudes towards outsiders. I am not saying every Jew, but obviously enough that to some outsiders (and some insiders) the general trend is obvious.
It’s sort of unavoidable. The unceasing drumbeat really is superiority to and disdain for everyone else. Tanya teaches that Jews have a unique and incalculable worth compared to Gentiles. I’ve heard “Shiksas are for practice” more than once, hell more than a dozen times from the Orthodox. If an Arab, just to take a random example, said “You can shtup a Jew-bitch, but for Allah’s sake don’t marry her” the howls of the same overly pious would be deafening.
We are the Light Unto the Nations. That could mean we should be held to a higher standard of ethics. In practice many believe it means we shouldn’t bother with Gentile laws except insofar as not following them leads to trouble. Rulings that we should avoid losing ourselves entirely in intermarriage get twisted until even common courtesy and human warmth are forbidden if they are directed at non-Jews. When we hear about a someone doing something good the praise only really begins to flow if the object of those good works is a Jew.
It isn’t even limited to Jews vs. Gentiles. The Black Hat Brigade treats Ethiopian Jews – who probably have the closest to the traditions of our ancestors – like something they’d scrape off the bottom of a boot. The Sephardim don’t get much better treatment. “Frum” schools in Israel segregate them. It’s forbidden to even mention that a convert was once a Gentile. And the Sages say that a mamzer who learns Torah is worthy of more praise than the High Priest. But a convert or a Ba’al Teshuvah will never marry a “Frum From Birth”. The rule of thumb I was told was three generations before purification.
I could go on. But anyone with a the perception G-d gave a rock can see the problem. If you’re told over and over how superior and holy you are, how worthless Jews who aren’t just like you let alone *shudder* the Goyim are it will rub off. You will begin to believe the lies and end up convinced of your own superiority and the worthlessness of everyone else. In order to maintain that fiction it is necessary dehumanize everyone else. The objects of scorn must be reduced to caricatures.
I’m not saying all Jews or all Orthodox Jews are like this. But the closer you get to an insular authoritarian world the harder it is to resist the lies and hatred.
Read what I wrote again. I said my kids were post-racial, they are all ages 10 and younger. I, and my generation, are not post-racial.
I’ve never heard the N word used more than around the Shabbos table in frum communities like Boro Park, Oak Park, Teaneck & Crown Heights.
I remember in high school this one kid (not me unfortunately) would get mad whenever someone said the N word which was pretty frequent – all the Rabbis used it too. Whenever this kid would say something against using the N word – people would call him a N-Lover
Someone I know was called a race traitor for doing something really similar in a nice little Modern Orthodox community.
I have never heard the N-word from frum people. Just the shin word.
And this is better how, exactly?
Well, it is also used around frum tables in many other places, not just places that are within an hour of the NJ turnpike. and it kinds disgusts me. may all kids one day see things out of place by things other than melanin content.
Let’s not make it seem like it’s only frum people. There are bigots everywhere, in every group, every race, every religion, every economic class.
But this is Frum Satire so we’re just trying to change the people around us in our communities and hoping that ripples into every community. Light unto the nations after all.
Trust me, I know this, but “everyone else does it” should NEVER be an excuse.
IT depends though, for this frummie yid the N word wouln’t apply, the only times i have heard the n word in the frum community is with goyim blacks… not jewish blacks. being jewish supercedes skin color.
but heshy is right race will never ever be removed from the frum community. because the frum community in its very essence is built on top of a socio/ xeno/ religious/ enclave foundation. it is what makes frum people frum. the fact that they are different from goyim is essential.
i think in that case saying nigger, is meant only to better identify a sub culture of the broader term- goyim. the term nigger used by frum yids does not have the same meaning that it would by some redneck from alabama. Frum Yidden mark the difference equally with whites as they do with blacks. but sometimes there is a need to specify the sub group, which the word shvartze or Nigger is very definitive. negitive yes sometime and sometimes not.
I must confess, being an orphan i grew up primarily around black people in public housing, wellfare the whole thing, i have lived with black people enough that i feel i have some what of a right to speak openly. as i am 25 and grew up in the 90’s when slang was prevelant, and had many black friends that called each other nigga, called me nigga, and expected nothing less of my self ( i was a even “wigger” for when i was younger. ) , i used the term by no means prejoritivly often, and still do. force of habit maybe.
but i still say those “Nigs” over there, or that Nigga is crazy…, etc. I have no racial hatred towards them at all, have lots of black friends that i call nigga to them, mostly in fun like talking like them, nothing sparks a smile on a black friend as well as a boisterous ” O NIGGA PLEEEZE” coming from a white kid… My friends know i mean no harm and take it as such. it is what i was used to.
But back to topic, i think it is all in how you say it and what you mean by it. i can say nigga and mean NOTHING bad, just as a means to better identify a person or group, i also could say that black guy and have racially derrogitory feelings meant behind it. its all in the heart. that being said, many many frum jews are racial bias but in all fairness they typically are the same way with all goyim. so its not that they hate blacks its that they don’t like anybody different. i am not justifying it, i am just mearly pointing out that its not as black and white as some would like to put it.
also, and i now this will be controversial, the hip hop culture and its predecesor the 70’s funk culture has dominated primarily black youth, for the past 30 years. this is a subculture that glorifys everything frum jews are against.
its a culture promoting, stupidity, drugs , alchholism, sex, crime including rape vandilism murder robbery,etc also has a strong overtone of machoism and materialism as well. These things that are such an abomination to frum yids, are blatently and subconsiously promoted to the black youth every moment.
to the point of even the one Black tv station (BET) is nothing more than a feeding station for black youth to become super charged for materialism sex violence etc. this in fact has brought on generations of fatherless familys, and has put black people particularly into a lifestyle that i think is what the frum people are really discrimminate of .
80+ percent of our prisons are african american men and women, its not that white people just want to throw them in jail, its that they grow up in a society that promotes no values, and a life of crime in many cases is imminent. (Mishnah says if you don’t teach your son a trade you teach him to be a gonif, how much more if you have no father at all) these are not just steroetypes, look at the data on blacks growing up in single parent homes, its epidemic.
but in spite of all that Many choose not to go down that path, and live successful meaning filled lives. Now this is not to say whites don’t commit crimes, not so at all, and its not that whites do not get into that culture, i know first hand they do. its that when a white acts that way it is said that he acts “Black” or he is a “wigger” both have african american conentations.
and many people in poverty situations tend to lean towards that culture, which is funny because you have white trailer trash kids that live in the backwoods of TN.. that dress like they are thugs, but with a redneck twist.. these kids generally like bands like ICP and kid rock. but none the less you here their old ass honda civic with a busted spoiler and a cherry bomb muffler on it bumping “Hail Mary” by Tupac.
this is a real problem. people in poverty situations, that have nothing no education, no prospects, no hope, are drawn to a lifestyle that is a powder keg for them. if you dont have it, Take it ..steal it. if your frusterated, upset,- get drunk, high, have tons of sex, to dull these feelings. its like dangling crack in front of a crackhead. of course they are drawn to it because it speaks directly to their situation. but what is saying to them diggs them deeper. so now it is a cycle, fatherless boy sire more fatherless boys.
this since the 70’s starting with (the much less intense but still negitive) funk music which promoted one thing sex sex sex, this was the first fatherless generation. whites had their time two the 60’s whites fathered many children through the “sexual revolution” but we settled down and got married to eachother and raised our children together. this did not happen the same with the black people, instead of being it being an expirience they had like the hippies did in the 60’s something they did and came back from ( a moral vacation of sorts)
for black poeple in america funk culture gave them an identity, something they were instead of something they expirienced. before the 60-70’s black people in the eyes of many and theirselves were no one, had little rights, incredibly opressed, had no real culture or identity, until the jazz/ funk genre came around and gave them one. this element was always sure black jazz halls in the 20s 30s 40s 50s it was always there as it is in all cultures, but this culture was underground not untill the liberation of the black community did this culture become truelly mainstream and sealed the black man into an identity they before had lacked. but that identity was not one of strength hope faith or love. it was an identity that they are hyper hyper hyper sexual, poor, tough/ thuggish/ gangs/ etc. this is an identity that they embrace even today. look at the aferican american book section in most Walmarts, its all these sex laden books, listen to the music watch there movies. as well as many other cultures that live in diverse poverty laden situations.
that being said, i know MTV is just as bad and white pop music is laden with all the negitive things as well, trust me Frum jews hate that as much… so it just goes back to we jews are always and will always be seperate from Goyishe ideas and social normitives.
this is what yidden i think are truely offended about an have animosity towards. Not color.. other then the general aire of superiority that all us jews have naturally because we have the Torah and we are Goy Kadosh Goy Echad etc..I don’t think very many Frum Jews feels he/she is better because of his skin color, like that of white supremisist .
So to me it is not the same, the kkk hated blacks because they believed that blacks are cursed because of Noach’s son Ham. they belive they are better than them because they are black alone sons od slaves, not because of any other reason. neo nazis as well it is a genetic ideal that causes their hatered. Frum jews only hate the immorality any Goyim portrays, it just happens that todays mainstream black culture idolizes those traits that we find repulsive.
as well as white pop culture, i don’t want to be unfair to black culture i think it is more extreme, you cant hardly watch a music video of a black artist without being bombarded with sex, also crime type thug gangsta senerios. American pop, has that element in it but it does not OVERTAKE the genre. music is important and it is one of the most powerful tools to convey a message in the world.
but if you hear a frum jew say the word nigger or shvartza, it is negitive, but it applys more to actions and preceptions of a persons character than it does have to doe with just there color.
but this ia just my opinion, i hope you all don’t think i am a racist, on the contrary, i feel like i am a realist, I think that the world is not perfect and i don’t sweep things under the rug, and i refuse to be pc. it does not mean that i don’t have life long friends that are black that I love dearly. they are smart articulate and do their race a service by existing. also i wish that black youth would embrace their true african culture not the rap gang bang drug deal sex laden culture that is spoon fed to them.
That is all cute and shiny (if still a bit “off” in my opinion), but I am afraid after many years around frum Jews all over the northeast US, I cannot give the majority the benefit of accepting this as a general explanation. I see a few extreme racists, a majority that accept that as being ok, a few who are against racism, and honestly, have met no one who actually holds the way you wrote this.
Great comment!
Go see a therapist.
Now.
I second that!
…and what do you make of groups such as the Black Panthers, which are about educating black people? Before you speak any further, may I recommend you read a bit of Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, et al? If you’re willing to expand even more, take a look at Farrakhan, you may not like the things his ilk says (especially about Jews), but it may open your mind a bit to how blacks have been treated over time, particularly by Jews. More than once have I had to tell coworkers not to judge me by the negative stereotype of Jews they grew up with, and the Jewish neighbors they’ve had in Brooklyn have not done much to break their perception.
I too am against the eMpTyV/BET generation. There are those within the black community who would take up your argument (such as Bill Cosby and Aaron McGruder, writer of “The Boondocks”). As a rule, though, I will not use the ‘N’ word, as I understand that it is considered offensive, even if being used specifically at a demographic. I know there are those, such as Jesse Jackson, who are trying to discourage even blacks to use the term amongst themselves. But understand that much as I’m against the ignorance in THEIR community, I’m even more against the one in the community I grew up in (that being the Ortho. Jewish community). I think this ones been succinctly tackled by other posts.
Finally, I’d like to recommend–for those who haven’t already read it–”Letter from Birmingham Jail” by Martin Luther King, Jr. It is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read. The best definition for racism I’ve ever read is in this letter. For those of you who don’t know, this letter was written to his fellow clergy members while he was in jail for protesting the segregation of schools in Alabama. He makes it clear that the letter is not just for Christians, but is also adressed to Jews, Muslims, or anyone else who calls himself a G0d-fearing person. The definition he gives for racism is–in the terms of Jewish philosopher Martin Buber–taking an ‘I-thou’ relationship and treating it like it’s an ‘I-it’ relationship; for those not familiar with Buber, it’s taking a person, and treating him like he’s an object.
I recommend reading “The Price of Whiteness: Jews, Race and American Identity.” It can be appalling…especially what Jews at certain periods in America had to do to be accepted as white often at the expense of blacks (and even Irish) who were considered “other” and subhuman.
thanx. who wrote it?
Eric L. Goldstein
That whole “Whiteness” thing is very interesting and fluid.
The Irish only became White in the later 19th Century.
“Chopstick Culture” Asians are on their way to becoming White in parts of the US.
As my Father says “We [Jews] can pass for White these days.” When he was going to college there were still anti-Jewish quotas and covenants.
My wife decided Jews were Off-White when she heard Elvis trying to sing Hava Nagila.
Oh yeah, as far as many people are concerned, I look Irish. And my father, people always think he’s such as WASP. Both of us are stereotypical assimilated Jews, no better than the ones who considered themselves German pre-Holocaust.
Can you believe that back in the day, Law and Investment Banking were strictly WASPish fields? See nowadays, the Jews have more than covered that market, but my father tells me that when he was growing up, Jewish Lawyers and Investment Bankers were a big deal. In fact, the firm that he used to work for got sued in the early 60s for not hiring a prospective employee who was both (a) Jewish and (b) female. She ended up winning the case; she then told the firm to go f..k themselves and got better paying job at another firm. According to my father, this was very breakthrough.
In his book “Chutzpah”, Alan Dershowitz discusses going to Yale Law in the 60s, and what it was like trying to be a Jew in an overwhelmingly WASPish institute (Yale has since moved on–no coincidence that their credo is in Hebrew!) For those of you who don’t know, Dershowitz was raised a frum Brooklyn Jew (I think he’s actually from Boro Park). My father’s mother says she was close friends with Mrs. Dershowitz.
My (Afro-Chinese) wife recounts something that happened to her on the bus a while back. A young (Black) man was talking loudly on the phone. Every other word was “Nigga” this and “Nigga” that. An older Black man directly in front of her went from discomfort to disgust to serious anger, but he was too polite to say anything.
Finally another young Black man turned around and said “If you don’t stop saying ‘Nigga’ someone’s going to come over and Nigga your ass.”
Lound applause from all, Black and White alike. The caller apologized to everyone – especially the older gentleman – and said it was a bad habit he needed to break.
NICE!
Can I use that story on my blog?
Of course.
Ein Frumme Yid,
I’ve noticed that too. Ignorant me thought you’d have to travel south of the Mason Dixie line to hear language like that.
sorry for the major fragmented sentences and way too many SP’s, my mind was racing when i wrote that post…
“but if you hear a frum jew say the word nigger or shvartza, it is negitive, but it applys more to actions and preceptions of a persons character than it does have to doe with just there color.”
You’re not frum; you’re not a yid. Get out of my religion and stop sharing ignorance in its name. I have ripped up your allied-Jew card. Go.
:scraps of card flutter into garbage can:
My advice to you is:
Move out of your mom’s basement, get a job, take a shower and stop looking at soft core porn sites even though you’ll never get a woman.
Self righeous @ssmunch.
I gotta say, I grew up in Brooklyn in a drum
home and frum community… And in my yeshivos, and community, the N word was very much shunned. And if I were to even think of saying it at home, my parents would scold me in a second!!
Orthodox families that use the word frequently and say there is nothing wrong with it?! What is wrong with you people? Have you no sense of morals? Have you no understanding of what vicious cycle you are contributing to? By using hate words such as the N word to describe a group of people, you are basically saying it ok to generalize an entire race of people based on a single thing! Which would then make it ok for people to call all Jews ‘kikes’ and the likes.
When will you ignorant people understand this? Stop being racists and learn to accept people. There are bad people in every race and culture, Jews very much included. But to start using hateful and derogatory words to generalize the entire group? Now that’s just wrong.
-A concerned, moral, non-ignorant, Brooklyn Orthodox Jew.
Thank you!
Paragraph 2 is what I should have said (and [what a ...], I’m a woman, and if you knew me, you’d realize I have about as much right to rip up anyone’s “Jew card” as no one). Please do not confuse my disgust with self-righteousness. It’s disgust. Read the label on the jar; it says it right there: Disgust, Facetiousness, Occasional Sarcasm. Does everything I write come out as well as it should? No; I’m human. There’s no excuse for racism.
As far as blanket discrimination goes, I’ll admit I’m wary of members of the Klan, people who call themselves Nazis and Cossacks (if there is ever a movement of Spanish Inquisition enthusiasts, they can be added to that short list). These are groups of people who have a history of doing my family harm, or who have publicly stated they are willing to do Jews harm. Such wariness is an effort with a mind toward keeping me safe. It doesn’t give me a right to harm others, just to keep my eyes open and watch my back.
I grew up in Brooklyn in the heart of the Frum community, attended one of the largest Frum Yeshivas, and the N word was always considered a despicable word . Never heard any of my 26 Rabbis’s use it. And if it ever occurred that a kid would say it, he would be looked down upon for it.
Stop spreading hate!
S(B)
The whole point is I have not heard very often the n word actually come from most other jews i know as well from my family. i don’t ever hear it. But others have said how much they hear it from frum jews, and to defend religious pious jews, and to help others that might not understand what these people are talking about i felt necessary to explain, so goyim or other non religious jews don’t just think that frum jews are a bunch of racist.. I never hear the word much personally, shvartze I hear more often… But the n word almost never, And I only use it in a comical sense, joking around, never with any hatred. and actually i think i have heard Heshy use it in that same sense during his rants, when he starts talking ghetto… its funny. period
I love black people, but i hate the rap thug culture that is portrayed, don’t you see how that culture ruins their familys and keeps them in povery? again i love it when black people take on their african heritage , its noble and beautiful, i love it when they take on islam, at least they become beacons of moralty, i love it when they become real practicing christians, i love it when they rise above what the media and the government tells them to be…..
anyways, i can see by your statements that you have nothing to do with halachah and are probably more goyishe then i am.. because if you were in to keeping halachah you wou have realized that you just broke a religious law, so i shouln’t even try to defend weither i am a jew or not…. but if i am not a jew neither are many other ashkanazi yidden whose ancestors were khazers…. which could very well include you. what you think everyone actually comes from the blood of yehuda? Right then how about the name shwartz or zimmerman…. how about Dovid ha Melech??!!!
It’s not funny and if you’d like I can find several black people (including the 1/3 black in myself) to explain to you off this blog why using the N-word is never funny.
No, it’s not funny when black people use it on each other. And it’s definitely not funny when any kind of white person, especially a frum Jew uses it. It is nothing less than an embarrassment to Judaism and that is not the Judaism I signed up for when I converted. Sorry, not interested in THAT kind of “Judaism.”
And you can say you love black people all you want and you can claim you have black friends all you want and even if five of them laugh AT you when you use that word, it doesn’t mean that it’s okay. It just means that G-d forbid you use that word in the wrong neighborhood one day, you will get your ass kicked and then people will accuse non-Jews of committing a hate crime against Jews.
I was born in Harlem and grew up in Washington Heights, in a ghetto, more exposed to thug culture and the kind of poverty a ghetto breeds than you ever will be a part of and never understand. And let me be very clear here, I never EVER have used the word n—ga as a joke. EVER. When I taught kids straight out of Washington Heights and Harlem–of every color–as a high school English teacher, I never let them once use that word in the classroom.
Words have power. And just because you say they don’t doesn’t make it any less true. Young blacks have taken the word nigger and changed it to nigga and tried to take back that word that was so often used against it. But that word is one of the many things that is keeping people and has kept people in the ghetto. I suggest you read up on institutionalized racism or racism period. Read about poverty period. Then get back to me.
And by the way, it is impossible to take your concerns about the poverty that people like me grew up in when you weed in such blatant racism into every other sentence. Your statements smack of paternalism.
And what’s worst? I think you truly don’t understand and don’t see the racism in every single one of your comments in response to my post. I will take a racist who knows he’s racist any day over a racist who thinks he actually “LOVES” people of color and spews the kind of racist stuff you felt no concern over spewing on Heshy’s blog. You took my post about a cute little experience that involved one black person and you basically ranted for several comments about all your racist feelings towards black people.
BASICALLY you took my post and you utterly and completely destroyed its innocence and its beauty.
Correction: Young blacks have taken the word nigger and changed it to nigga and tried to take back that word that was so often used against it.
It as in the black community.
I wasn’t concerned about embarrassing you in public because you’ve commented on here for a while and you are either a giant joke or you believe every word you say; either way, I don’t run a risk of embarrassing you.
If you are Jewish, why have Ger as part of your screen name? If you are not Jewish, why have Frum as part of your screen name? It is not yours to judge how Jewish I am, either in practice, or in lineage. Remaining a Jew is a conscious choice, every day. Racism is not part of my Judaism. Be well.
The original story remains a beautiful one regardless of the free-for-all that follows. However, the initial premise for humor in the story and the ensuing comments indicate that ‘post-racialism’ is an elusive goal and perhaps an impossible one.
I believe the comments from FrumGer were honest and meant no disrespect. They were certainly misguided and, I’m guessing, were based on encounters with people who ‘gave him permission’ to use this derogatory term and the out-of-touch media that reinforces it. There are perhaps millions of people who think this way. Subsequently, I was not upset by his use of the ‘word’ and believe, that after the comments here, he may be headed toward reconsidering using ‘nigga’ as a ‘term of endearment’.
Aliza, about your statement…
‘I will take a racist who knows he’s racist any day over a racist who thinks he actually “LOVES” people of color and spews the kind of racist stuff you felt no concern over spewing on Heshy’s blog.’…
I realize you are making comment about knowing where you stand with a racist person. But be careful.
As a Black boy who lived his first two decades in segregation, I have tangible experience with institutionalized racism and the psyche of those who benefit from it and those who do not. I believe true racists are incorrigible and envision a world without people like you and me. I also believe that people, like FrumGer, are not true racists. Certain aspects of his rant were, albeit said in a ‘racial’ language, were good starting points to kinder conversations, the kind of conversations he should take up with his ‘crew’.
I believe that all racism builds towards keeping different forms of institutionalized racism. I recommend “Silent Racism: How Well-Meaning White People Perpetuate the Racial Divide.” It’s easy to skim through. Yes, indeed, I meant that I like knowing where I stand. I like feeling like I know someone and suddenly come to realize they think I am from a backward culture (Hispanic, poor, whatever).
Aliza- let me be clear to you. if you read what i said i am talking about a sub culture that i am very much bias & prejuduce to not a race. my word are what they are, i takenothing back. i now heshy has done the samething in terms of using the n word in his rants, so dont scold me and spare him. you are offened just to be offended, because nthing did i say have any negitive feelings towards black people for there race. i hate that ghetto culture which i grew up in. foster homes in public housing, group homes with all that element in it. i have been around, and i know that i hate that culture, it hasnothing to do with race, because blacks whites hispanics dominicans even asians ,all races subscribe to it. i hate it and am not ashamed of it. but i hate it no less then i do the punk sub culture, see some of my post towards punk torah. its theculture that isdumbing down these people and saying to them they only thikng you can be is a crimminal, rapper, or an sport player. i love it when anyone rises they are told to be and become someone great. i hate that the media tells these youth to be this way. anyways you knownothing about me,and i don’t need to prove myself. everywhere i go black people love me, because i see no difference in color, because i don’t shy away from them, i treat them equal with myself or anyone else. because they are. its the culture i have a problem with not the individual. i don’t play theslavery guilt card on them , i treat them like i would my own, meaning i can disagree, i can speak openly with and treat them withrespect andexpect more from them. see that is whats wrong everyone babys these people still likethey are less than, like they cant rise up like they dont have greatness inside them, please. spare me. and you talkin, “well if you in my neighborhood ,you get yo azz kicked!”" please firstly i said i do that as a jokewith close friends, not with strangers that might be offended. but more importantly, that very ghetto tough guy attitude is the problem. that iswhy our jails are over run with black people. because that is what you expect out of them. nothing more. you think you are defending somthing andright there you subtly undermine it. be solution not a problem.
But if you read just one post where I mention ONE black person and can’t contain or stop yourself from going on a rant about all the ills of ‘ghetto’ culture then how are you any different from the people I know who can’t tell ONE black person from another…ghetto or otherwise? You saw a post about one black person and you decided it was your platform for your rant about ghetto culture. W-T-F.
Whether or not you see it, your actions show that you when you think about race or racism with regards to black people, you automatically think about the ills of ghetto culture. And I think there’s something really wrong with that. I don’t read something about Hispanics and automatically start ranting about Mexican border control. I don’t read something about Jews and then start ranting about how they’re cheap or insular.
Someone said it here, a white guy from the slums can put on a suit the next day and he doesn’t have to worry that people will associate him with the slums despite that suit on his back. Despite the tzizit on this frum yid I mentioned, you were unable to disassociate him from your misgivings about ghetto culture.
It sounds, reading your statements more clearly, as if you were scarred by growing up in a ghetto culture as an outsider, in your case because I’m guessing you’re white, in my case because my parents were educated and wouldn’t let me play outside, and I can relate to that but I also know that plenty of my friends who wore baggy jeans, listened to rap music and called each other nigga didn’t also commit crimes, rape or mistreat women or abandon their children.
My post was not about a small white child NOT being privy to all the baggage of the culture around her, all the baggage WE carry. All SHE saw was a guy dressed like a frum yid using an IPOD. Frum yid who is black was no problem, frum yid rabbi using IPOD? If there is such a thing, as other people mentioned earlier, she was definitely post-racial in that moment.
But you were not. Because as soon as anyone mentioned racism or the n-word, you had to spend 21 paragraphs, more than 21 paragraphs, explaining what’s wrong with black people or as you specified only sometimes ghetto culture.
I’m not a schoolteacher taking you to task. I’m not going to take Heshy to task for things I haven’t seen or heard him do but I will not sit here and let you take my specific post, hijack it and twist it and turn it into something ugly or use it as a forum to vent what you feel is wrong with ghetto culture. Find a blog post about ghetto culture and take your baggage there.
As for what’s ghetto and tough guy, as I mentioned on my blog, in an Italian neighborhood in 2002, an Italian guy got beat up for bringing his Asian girlfriend around. Was that a symptom of being ghetto? In 1950s, it would have been a black guy with his white girlfriend. Would that be ghetto? But a black guy beating up a white guy who thinks it’s funny to use the word nigga…that’s definitely ghetto? Hmm.
I didn’t say what my feelings were about ghetto culture because that’s not what my post was about and I save that stuff for my own blog where I can deal with the issue properly but I am concerned that you can’t see, though many people here were disturbed by your rants, what was wrong with them. I didn’t say EVERYTHING you said was incorrect (but people here pointed out where you were each time and you ignored them). So much, too much, of what you had to say was polluted by “well-meaning racism” and paternalism and so whatever you were trying to do, you did not help the cause of ending racism , or even help our brethren still caught in the cycle of poverty in ghettos get out of them, you just perpetuated things.
And if you honestly think it’s JUST thug, ghetto or rap culture keeping those children in our impoverished neighborhoods oppressed or in prison then you are seriously and sadly misinformed.
Now, I’m getting off my soap box. Good night, folks.
You are absolutely correct. But it will not make an impression on him.
Thank you. I’m not speaking to him in particular anymore. I think you are correct. I guess, I’m speaking to the people who are silent, on the fence, and are perhaps beginning or trying to understand.
If they only knew what you really thought of them.
Aliza, one day they will, and he and his “whaterver the hell-he-think’s-he-is Burden” attitude will be out there for what it is.
Aliza-
Firstly, seeing a black kid in tzitzit did not have anything to do with my rant. my rant was in response to people accusing frum jews of being racist. i know black men that are friends of muine that don’t act ghetto, i have a close friend that is converting to judaism he is articulate he is well educated he takes care of his family.
let me be clear to you again. from ages 6-16 90 % of my friends in the world where black people. i was not rejected at all i did go through a couple year skater stage in which i hung out with both white people and black people from ages 12 -14 but other than that, i was that white kid with baggy jeans who would do anything crazy and wild to prove myself. i had lots of friends, hung out all the time i was definatly not told to stay in the house.
i was ghetto. i was out there with the baggy phat farm jean suit and Tims. also i was accepted just fine. i took kung fu for all a lot of my teen years, so pretty much all the black guys in my neighborhood wouldn’t mess with me anyways and i would teach them kung fu tricks, and i could handle myself pretty well. i am not wormy, i am not a small guy, and in a neighborhood that values how tough you are more than everything else, i always did ok.
i was not this small nerdy kid you seem to be picturing. i played football, i was on the basketball team, so again most of my friends where black. i was not adopted by my jewish family till i was 16 i think, but even still i was around black people most of the time, even up in through college my room mate in college was black. i stayed up till three in the morning playing spades or madden being the only white kid in the room. i didn’t get really frum till i was about twenty. in other words i have so called “street cred”. i know what i am talking about. and i know what that culture can do to you. i know friends that have died, i know friends that are in jail, i know friends that have gotten girls preggers and left them. that is the reality.
but to your point you know people that wear baggy jeans and don’t do that stuff, good for you. you know the variable not the constant. look at the stats homey, look at who has the highest % of teen pregnancies, look at the fatherless children demographics… look at who are in prison, look at the facts , don’t be blind. i was in that culture and i hate it not because i got picked on as a kid. i hate it because i see how i got kicked out of school for selling weed, i see how i got sent to a group home for it, i see how that culture made me think the more girls i slept with more bad ass i was. i saw how materialism was so important i would steal what i wanted, with no regard to people or property.
that is why i hate that culture. i hate what it shaped me in to. i hate it what it shaped my friends into, i hate what it is shaping the next genreation into. if i was not adopted and not given this strong heritage that yiddishkeit provides, if this did not become my identity, if this was not who i was shaped into, heaven knows what i would be. that is why, not for your reasons.
I see what you are saying about the story was about a black kid so automatically i thought about ghetto, so i am racist because my mind thought of ghetto people. And if that where what happened you would be correct, but its not. i said nothing till i read about people saying how racist frum people were. i meant only to explain that any racisim coming from most frum yidden would be more directed towards the rap culture types, not because of their color. i meant to explain so someone might not get the wrong impression.
don’t take what i said out of its true context for propoganda purposes. i am not a racist, i want black people have better lives, and it will only happen when they wake up and see what shit the media is pumping to them. I know what you you could be thinking that i am generalizing, implying that all black people are poor ghetto types.
i know that not to be true. but i look at things in terms of majorities. the majority of the black people in this country are in poverty. a big majority. you can keep your speculation, and act like that is not the case, but it is. its a fact that poeple ignore but it should not be ignored. you say i could put on a suit, and noone would know the difference, not true. most so called give aways, are whether or not someone is articulate, intellegent educated. i was all those things because i taught myself to be. i may have been in those neighborhoods, dress like that, talked liked that with my friends, but i studied and I learned on my own. i was no dunce.
that is what separates you from being considered ghetto, not color. i have met soooooo many black people in the work place, that you just figured had a good upbringing because they speak well, dress well, and are respectable. actually you are more likely to get hired this day in age if you are black (given you speak well and look nice- cornrows and neck tatts are nto going to get it done)
Really?
Looking at high-skill highly credentialed jobs:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html?em
And looking at low wage jobs, we have:
http://paa2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=50874
In the latter, a black candidate with no criminal record is hired at the same rate as a white ex-con.
Dave-
Obviously racism exists, but there is something called affirmitive action that exists as well. every application that i have ever applied for (tons of them) always have the diversity status section, that asks you if you are a minority. this is not so they can weed our the blacks and mexicans, (BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE SUED) this is so they have their quota of non white employees filled. have you ever been in a government building? most of those jobs are filled by blacks. have you ever been on a construction site, lot more mexican jobs these days. these are fair paying jobs, with benifits.
i know you read your little propaganda pieces by the NY Times aka the liberal propaganda times bent of getting the black vote on the side of all liberal ideals…(before you might say it, I am not conservitive or liberal, i beilieve in unviersal healthcare, i don’t think we need to go into afganistan, i hate capitalism, but am pro life, and voted for bush and mccain really i think 98% of all Dems and Reps are all snakes)
but heres a fact. these stats you beleive in are definately skewed one direction,( kind of like putting 9 gay men in a room of 10 and taking a poll– what do you get?? survey says stats prove- 9 out of 10 men are gay)
much like most statistics that are out there to prove a point. you actually trust statistics? a few years ago i had a long conversation once with a statistician, and it changed my whole view on so called generated stats.. Now i trust very few stats, i recommend you do the same.
heres the overt facts you need no stats for it you just need to look around this country..
Fact, black people as a whole are of course going to be less hired.
having a crimminal record or not. the main point is education. blacks kids are not as privy to further education as white kids are. this is their own fault no one elses. the pell grant is there for anyone who is poor. but if you don’t apply or even finish high school it does nothing for you. and this in not just for black kids. this is for most inner city poverty stricken kids- white, black, or other included.
the problem is that the majority of black people live in these poverty situations, excepting the ones that strapp their boots up and better theirselves. those kids make it. but those kids are the exception. most of the majority do not. these guys that do not better theirself, and get either an education or some skill set end up either getting the min wage job, live on welfare, or sad to say end up getting in trouble. this goes for white black etc etc. there is plenty of so called white trash out there… they are in the same boat.
these well educated black guys out there will get a good job adventually. they are in lime light in these stories to pump a so called hot topic- ie to sell the news papers advertising space.. they probably already have jobs even as we speak. that is what i love about these propaganda pieces, they show one mans struggle, and act like this is every mans struggle. and then make it all about the social action of the day. its to sell advertising Dave! nothing more… there are PLENTY PLENTY PLENTY of white people out there that are educated have expirience and are not getting hired. the job market is bad for everyone in general. but if a white man doesn’t get hired, its because the market is flooded with well qualified applicants and he didn’t get hired because he might have not been quite as qualified as another man or he didn’t interview well or what ever.. if a black man doesn’t get hired its because he is black.
that is propaganda. that is to sell advertising. that is to get someone elected to a public office. catch my drift?
15% unemployment, we were in the great depression, righ now we are at 10%, and the reality is 35% of the work force is unemployed but doing small jobs here and there to make it. partial employment. it has NEVER been this bad,
but its because this guy is black, give me a break.
it is a fact that affirmitive action states, that if a black man and a white man are head to head, comperable skills and education, the black man will be selected if they need to keep their diversity status, ie if they have a shortage of minoritys.
But i will say that the name arguement holds water. a women named shaniqua or a guy named jabbal being less likely to be hired is probably true. the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of those names are ghetto black people. i believe that. when i think of a name shaniqua, i think of long colored nails, a blond weave, and a gold tooth. but its not just me, or just white people… black people joke about those names a great deal.
i have heard joke from black comedians about ghetto people and the names are almost always some crazy name like that. also on the movie Coach Carter to be more specific, when the preganant girl (who was black) was discussing names with her girlfriends for her baby, the friends were spitting out a bunch of names similar to shaniqua and the pregnant girl said– i quote ” The ghetto called…they want their name back.” so its not just white people that pre judge that way, i think ALL of America pre judges that way no matter what color they are.
Bottom line most of your arguement doenst hold water.
here is the bigger problem, America makes nothing!!! we make nothing!! we sell ad space, we buy and sell debt. we sell air. that is all. that is why that black man is not getting hired. because how many snake oil peddlers out there can there be? how many? how many Suggies can one family have? how many goerge foremen grills? how much useless shit can we aquire? that is it why, because when we do sell and sell shit and its shit no one really needs and spend their desposibale income on. eating out. movies. cable. Damn in home saunas!! shit no one needs. very few real jobs out there, and a market flooded with qualified people hungery for work. but for this guy its because he is black. BARF.
Ah, so you’re not just racist, you’re classist to boot. I get it. Well, that explains everything.
Oh, FrumGer, no need to defend yourself to me or to Dave. I don’t believe it’s your fault. Just falling for that classist and racist propaganda.
And as for me, I don’t really care what “defence” he pulls out of his butt.
His core belief seems to be “In the whole world there is no group nearly as cool as my group. In my group there is nobody nearly as cool as me.” Deep down most people believe it with a few “Insert name here” differences. But we try to see it for what it is and overcome it. Others revel in it.
I remember reading this same vignette somewhere before. I like cute stories like this. Thanks to Aliza and Heshy for posting it here.
FrumGer,
I see you in a different light after this thread. Before I thought you might be just a bit crazy but now I’m thinking you are probably a smart guy affected by circumstance. Your tone and logic come off a bit like the bean pie guys who led thug lives before taking on the straight and narrow path. Even with a suit and tie and a nice haircut, its hard to completely escape the thought patterns of ghetto logic.
Chris_b i would say that your right, in some ways, i do have some ghetto logic rattling up there. its funny like i still think of all the less than reputable angles in an situation, and my mind tends to lean toward the synical and the overtly negitive. i really hate that about me, but i just cant be the naivete that i wish i could be. i love so much these guys you know the types that are just happy all the time and uber positive and totally naive..
i am a person who says that everything will work out, and i don’t really get over whelmed, but nothing seems to shock me, nothing seems to be a suprise. that really is a cold way to live. i can’t be hurt by anyone and anything thing can happen and i just soldier on. most think that would be a good quality, its really not. actually its quite lonely.
I hate the country i am stuck in, because i see so many lying faces leading it. i hate the culture our society has become, its soo shallow and deprived of everyhting i think of as good. people that provide nothing useful to the world ie, pro ball players and movie stars, make hundreds of millions and our teachers, policemen, and firemen are barely making a living.
the absurdity of priorities in this counrty makes me sick, and its in my face all the time. then i get these people on here calling me a racist because i think ghetto culture (NOT A RACE A CULTURE) is a negitive influence on the world. Now ALIZA is calling me a CLASSIST. which is not true, because i broke my class a long time ago. i grew up on food stamps in and out of the social services system, i have seen the worse of the worse, and i have seen “not so bad” as well.
i have lived a lot lot lot of life in my short 25 years. and have come to some conclusions about things. mostly that have nothing to do with race. mostly have to do with upbringing. mostly have to do with what you fill your head with. just because a great deal of a certain race subscribe to that particular culture, get raised in that culture, i am not allowed to say that with out being labeled a racist. but the facts are in my corner and i am still a racist. i don’t belive it is inherent in said race’s genetics, i dont beleive there is a curse on the particular race, i dont beleive all of the race are that way. i don’t beleive every black person is the steroetype, at all, i now that to be untrue. i don’t get nervous going through a black neighborhood. i dont think every black person is going to kill me. i am not a racist. perhaps a culture-ist. i that would be true. do i think frum judaism is a better culture that the rap ghetto baby mama culture?? totally. do i think the releigious islamic cutlure is better than ghetto culture, yes. do i think the evangelical christian culture is better than the ghetto thug culture, yes. Amish? Yes. yuppy white kid from the burbs, not so much but still more than likely, yes. ( as they can be just as immoral) i think that the BET culture of ghetto ghetto ghetto, clubbin, sexin, thuggin, runnin, but then go to chruch on sunday is disgusting.
but i hate with equality, the treifin, homosexin, but go to shul on yom kipper with your blackberry to check the score of the local game, judaism is disgusting too.
and thats what is funny is that i have just as many extreme things to say about goyisher kohped yidden out there, which subsiquentually make up the majority of our religion, (for right now) i am no racist, i am no classist, i just am not pc.
FrumGer,
I understand what you are saying, especially about being hard to shock or surprise. When I was 25 I had a lot of the same frustration at the situation of the world. Heck, I still have those feelings at 40 but I stopped expressing most of it because 1) people misunderstand, get offended, etc. 2) getting angry at the world results in me having a stomach ache and the world not noticing or caring. Now I think that the level of crap has always been the same and its the same wherever you go so I just try to keep my own things right and help out someone else when I can.
One piece of advice though, learn where the shift key is as it will greatly improve your public image. Spelling and punctuation require more effort, but at least train yourself to capitalize appropriately.