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Letter to the editor: Wife Swapping in the frum community

frum wife swapHi Heshy. I was reading a blog of yours about the so called ‘wife swapping’ going on in the frum world. I think you’re a very funny and intelligent guy, but I was deeply upset at the insensitivity of the topic. One day soon YOU will be married, and you will understand that women aren’t whores and floozies. Wouldn’t it horrify you to inadvertently include your dear wife being that she will be a young frum woman? We should have more respect for our bnos yisroel.

Our generation is sick and we have this very bad habit of porno-sizing everything thats sacred. (dude I am totally using that term)

Look Heshy, I was single and dating for 5 years without any luck. I was also engaged once. It came to a point where my whole outlook on women and the frum world was in jeopardy. Even now I sometimes struggle to ignore the sick lashon hara that comes out of peoples mouths about ‘wife swapping’, ‘tefillin dates, whatever. Let’s not feed our negativity by giving a public forum to this garbage. Which most probably is untrue. (everyone I know goes on tefillin dates)

You’re in a position where a lot of people pay attention to your take on the frum world. Please handle with care.

Response: the original post was that I didn’t believe wife swapping was happening en masse, sure it happens, the frum community is not immune to anything that happens in other communities – we are just better at hiding it, by making people fearful that their daughters won’t get into the right seminary or get a good shidduch.

With regards to Tefillin Dates, I am of the opnion that they are actually a good thing and I have stated my reasons in the post Tefillin Dates are Good.

{ 37 comments… add one }
  • Yeshiva boy November 17, 2009, 10:29 PM

    i had a woman in the prgress of divorce with a child, who no longer was religious, interested in getting in on with me.
    things got a little complicated once she told me she was still legally married…

  • Rabbi No November 17, 2009, 10:49 PM

    They are called “Key Parties”. Couples are invited to a host’s house for drinks. When they enter, the couple places their car keys in a bucket. At the conclusion of the evening, each female picks a pair of keys from the bucket, whomever the keys belong to, that is whom she will be spending the night with. Puts a new twist to “spin the bottle”.

  • finally... November 17, 2009, 11:47 PM

    Thanks for sharing you dum@ss.

    Mom is real proud I’m sure you prick.

  • anonime November 18, 2009, 1:26 AM

    heshy, I think he was callin “rabbi no” a dumbass

  • hosh November 18, 2009, 1:48 AM

    Yea hesh I don’t think he was talking to u. And as for the gues post I agree with what he was saying. I love your site and your humor but there could be ppl out there reading this that might be influenced. With great power comes great responsibility. Keep up the good work heshy

  • finally... November 18, 2009, 2:00 AM

    well – it was aimed at the rabbi no, but i am also pissed at you.

    why give people more ideas???

    yeah, i know about 30 women i’d like to bang, but i hope i never will…

    …if i whip it out for 5 mins of pleasure, my entire life could end up down the drain (i’m married).

    so why the hell keep trying to put these thoughts into people’s heads?

    c’mon! its hard enough without you!

    after 120, if you were the srtaw that broke the camel’s back and someone screwed someone else’s wife, you are screwed.

    come on!! right about nicer stuff, like stuffing your fat piggy face at a kidding, or old lady doily yamakahs, or mountain biking or crazy girls you went out with and hiking and camping and share pics with us…

    NOT THIS SH1T!!! please!

    • s(b.) November 18, 2009, 4:56 AM

      “after 120, if you were the srtaw that broke the camels back and someone screwed someone elses wife, you are screwed.”

      Please. People are responsible for their own behavior.

    • abandoning eden November 18, 2009, 12:22 PM

      generally when people do things like wife swapping they do it WITH the permission of their wives…so it doesn’t ruin their marriages. What you are talking about sounds more like cheating on your wife, which is totally not the same as swinging.

    • Michaltastik November 19, 2009, 12:20 AM

      “cmon! its hard enough without you!”

      LOL…. Laughing….

      still laughing

      Laughing again…

      can’t stop laughing…

    • Ex BY girl March 5, 2011, 7:45 PM

      It’s called self control… At Finally…. I went to bais yaacov and my childs father isn’t jewish. But I’m not a slut. I have self control. So it’s not that hard to say NO. I’ve also been to SA so i know I have a problem, but I learned how to say NO. thank you new york! So keep it in your pants and you won’t have a prob…. 🙂

  • Cece November 18, 2009, 2:50 AM

    Finally you need to get laid asap. Your anger and desperation is pretty damn obvious. It’s there so deal with the issue. Not talking suppresses shit.

  • Rabbi No November 18, 2009, 3:07 AM

    Finally.. my Mother is dead too so I second Heshy’s token adjective. Last I checked this website was never “Rated G” for all viewers. things are mentioned here for mature individuals and if you want to keep your head in the sand and not be aware of the filth and immoral deprevity out there, so that you would be conscious enough to avoid those situations, then you should not be viewing any of the articles or comments posted. the post was not to advertise the indecent acts but to be aware of the rampant behavior and that it is occuring in the jewish community.

    • Michaltastik November 19, 2009, 12:22 AM

      Heshy… he wrote you a new tagline…

      This site is NOT rated G and it’s not for all audiences…

      • Rabbi "No" November 19, 2009, 12:37 AM

        I’ll have my trademark attorneys contact Heshy. We’ll work out a fair licensing agreement.

  • uun November 18, 2009, 5:12 AM

    Wife swapping has inclined since your days heshy.

  • Frum But Fun November 18, 2009, 5:18 PM

    I heard of wife swapping in certain frum communities and I will continue to remain skeptical until some out there could come up with hard solid evidence that such activity takes place. If any of you are brave enough to come out of your shell and share your personal experiences with us, then feel free to do so. Otherwise I will conclude that wife swapping is a falsified rumor. Its one thing to expose character flaws and its another thing to dig dirt on people because some out has such a big void in his/her life and is looking for publicity. Humans are not infallible creatures and people do stray from their marriages as they do from religion. Not all women are whores and sluts and not all men are pimps and cheating bastards. Not everyone is looking for a quickie or to get laid. Most married couples are faithful to their spouses. I’m not saying we should turn the other way when things go array but these incidents shouldn’t jeopardize the entire community either. Maybe people are not hasty to address these issues fear that it will give their communities a bad reputation. We have impulses and raging hormones but it doesn’t mean we should act upon them. On the other hand, we shouldn’t stir up wanton $h!t about people either. Its loshon hara and a chillul Hashem. If an anti-Semite were to read this column, what would he make of it?

    • MadMaxInJerusalem November 19, 2009, 8:55 PM

      While it may not be common in the Jewish community why do you think 50% of marriages end in divorce in the USA?

  • FrumGer November 18, 2009, 7:07 PM

    This wife swapping in the frum community is an urban legend at best…
    its a yeshivish boys twisted meiser. i will break down why it will never happen in the frum community.

    number 1- it takes 4 people to agree on the stipulations, never happen between 4 jews, everyone knows jews on any big decision need an intermitiary to hear the case of both sides.

    Number 2- i dont know one frumnik that is that comfortable at looking not frum in front of another family ( my G-d Rivka, what will the neighbors think?)

    Number 3- the conversation could never come up, how could one approach a thing like this? Because there would always be the big variable of– what if the neighbors said “NO WAY!”, word would get out so fast you would be excommunicated before you mincha that evening..

    Number 4- even IF the other couple secretly wanted to do such a terrible act from ha sichra archa, to get one up on another yid, to “frum up” someone is the suttle goal of most frum yidden. so even if they wanted to say yes they would say no just so they could look more like a tzaddik and the make the other couple look like a couple of aposkorim… kind of like even if you skip maariv a lot, you would never skip maariv if someone is at your house.

    bottom line it would never happen with a truely frum family… not to say other things don’t happen like cheating, of course it does, G-d forbid, but this is a farce and psychologicaly no frum jew could bring himself to be so exposed.

    As to tefillin dates–

    this is one of the most hypocritical things ever. if your going to shtup an unmarried girl, and be a total mamzer and take from her the most important thing she could give to her husband, how could you do it and know your going to daven in the morning? And how could those words have ANY chavanah? How could you klop your chest, and repent for something your not sorry for? and if you were sorry then why would you stay at her house, and why would dare to daven at her house? and how could she not look at you like a hypocrite? because basically you are saying to her that you have no respect for her, that you have no respect for Hashem.

    let me tell you she might not say she does but she does. Even if a women says she want to do the deed, and does it, Every women wants a hero, every women wants a man that she respects, looks up to, and feels safe with.. And a G-dly Women will only respect a man that loves Hashem more then his lusts.

    she might say she wants to, she might even do it. but deep down, she will never respect a man like that. Ever. its one thing to get caught up in a moment, and make a decision that you regret immediatly its another to knowingly do it and bring tefillin to daven at her home.

    the more I think of it the more i wonder what business a young women has living by herself unmarried. its dangerous number one, and secondly a women should be living with family or under some sort of leadership. (not that men should necessarily live alone until they are married either but its different) women need male leaders, firsly her father, her father takes care of her and is her “man” until another comes along if there is no father then her mother takes that role, if neither than some elder in the community, needs to take care of that women.

    And the more i think of all this it just goes back to why the hell be frum if you don’t Love G-d? what is up with all these dead fish frummies that do all the traditions and laws but have no chavanah?

    • Abandoning Eden November 18, 2009, 8:32 PM

      “the more I think of it the more i wonder what business a young women has living by herself unmarried. its dangerous number one, and secondly a women should be living with family or under some sort of leadership. (not that men should necessarily live alone until they are married either but its different) women need male leaders, firsly her father, her father takes care of her and is her man until another comes along if there is no father then her mother takes that role, if neither than some elder in the community, needs to take care of that women.”

      *BARF* are you farkin kidding me? Women need male leaders? *barf*. Most women I know are 100x more capable of taking care of themselves than any man I know.

    • Heshy Fried November 18, 2009, 10:31 PM

      Do you know anyone that has kavanah either way.

      The chassidish (real chassidish) approach would be to compartmentalize your sins so you can rebel against the yetzer harah that is trying to drag you down with guilt and depression – so instead of dwelling on your sins you go on sinning and doing mitzvos too.

      I have plenty of friends that shtup, eat triefe and violate shabbos – but theys till put on tefillin in the morning or do chesed – why should you not do miztvos even if you do something wrong.

    • Michaltastik November 19, 2009, 12:29 AM

      “the more I think of it the more i wonder what business a young women has living by herself unmarried. its dangerous number one, and secondly a women should be living with family or under some sort of leadership. (not that men should necessarily live alone until they are married either but its different) women need male leaders, firsly her father, her father takes care of her and is her man until another comes along if there is no father then her mother takes that role, if neither than some elder in the community, needs to take care of that women.”

      Yep, that wasn’t sexist and chauvinistic AT ALL. I hope you get the sarcasm…

    • Michaltastik November 19, 2009, 12:36 AM

      Oh, and, what am I supposed to do? My parents are both dead.

      Incidentally, if a women has a man into her home with no third parties and she didn’t want anything to happen, she is a fool. Men have their game but, women usually think they will outsmart the men and get what they want in return (usually money and designer label crap)

      NOTE: Im not like this, but how many girls have told me I needed to be taught this.

    • ghottistyx November 19, 2009, 3:21 AM

      Once again, FrumGer proves to us that he’s living in an idealized world where EVERYONE is a tzaddik and no one sins. Really, the world was as you described, don’t you think Moshiach would have come by now? If people were really so ashamed to sin that they didn’t? Seriously man, wake up and smell the shmaltz herring! If people want to sin, they will. I know my share of people who daven with kavannah, but their actions do not reflect their schtarkikeit (is that a word?).

      I think we can all agree that they are like the students are Rabbi Akiva. But again, please note that the main point is that it’s more rampant than people think it is. So I adress this final point not just to FrumGer, but to EVERYONE. Just because you don’t know anyone who does it, doesn’t mean it’s not happening. I don’t know anyone personally who is a rapist, but God knows they’re out there and they’re quite rampant! When I read articles about rapists in the local community, should I assume they’re not out there just because I don’t know any? For those of you who are thinking “what about in the frum community…”, I knew Baruch Lanner (or thought I did).

      • Michaltastik November 24, 2009, 12:19 AM

        Actually, if he really believed that everyone was a tzaddik then there would be no need for women to be “protected” or does he think women are stupid and childlike?

        I so, agree with you, Mr. Ghottistyx, there are so many creeps but, everyone thinks they are ok, so no one knows and then BOOM one day something happens. Also, there’s this erroneous idea that if you know someone they couldn’t possibly be doing anything wrong… after all, you KNOW him or her.

        I’m dying to know how old FrumGer is. I’ll bet he’s under 25, like 20.

      • Moish the spacedout BT April 5, 2012, 8:18 PM

        Fish- when you realise the paradox of human weakness in the faith community you will eventually move on but your commitment will never be the same. But would you rather live in a fool’s paradise? You know me I’m the Staten Island…..

  • puleeaazzz November 18, 2009, 10:32 PM

    Frumger, So men can live alone full of whores and porn but women need babysitters? I pity any women that comes in your direction. Women are way more mature. Men are immature pigs!

  • eyekanspel November 19, 2009, 6:49 AM

    Sometimes your comments show a small bit of insight, but your comment on this article was pure drivel. Sorry, but I can’t think of any other way to describe it. I could surprise you with the kinds of stories I know firsthand about people sinning, but I’ll spare you the details. Just trust me on this one. I’m 20, ffb, and single, and I have seen things (firsthand, not through hearsay) that would make your frum hair stand on end.

  • G*3 November 19, 2009, 5:18 PM

    > Women are way more mature. Men are immature pigs!

    How is that any better than FrumGer’s comments? You clearly think that his comment was misogynistic and sexist (and I agree), but yours is just as sexist.

    FrumGer, you don’t seem to understand that a lot of people are frum becuase they grew up that way. Its their culture. Even if they truly, sincerely beleive all of it, religion is not at the front of their minds all the time. People daven shachris and put on tefilillin in part becuase that’s what you do in the morning, like putting on your pants and brushing your teeth. That he slept with his girlfriend the night before really isn’t relevant.

  • Rabbi "No" November 19, 2009, 11:37 PM

    I will trade you my horse for your cow. She has a lot of miles on her but she won’t stray and will get you to were you want to go.

  • Rabbi "No" November 19, 2009, 11:50 PM

    Ohhh….you meant wives……Honest mistake on my part…..

  • A. Nuran November 20, 2009, 6:12 AM

    I really don’t see what all the foo-fraw is about.
    It has happened.
    It has always happened.
    It always will happen.

    And people will come up with pretty much the same ways of having fun or being stupid, sometimes both at once. This sort of letter and the column that came before it aren’t going to give anyone “ideas” they didn’t already have.

    Do cheating, swinging and polyamory exist in the frum world? Certainly. People are probably just a little more careful about covering it up or go further out of town to avoid people who know them.

  • Moish the spacedout BT April 5, 2012, 8:21 PM

    These things will never take off in the frum community because even if they can get together a “key club” eventually the community will wise up to them and they will be asked to leave.

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