Contrary to what many people may think, my years in yeshiva were some of my best, I made friends that would last a lifetime and learned some invaluable lessons – like the best places to hide porn and that you could buy a black hat for $18 at sears that looked just like the more expensive frummy one’s that most of the kids in my yeshiva wore. Nevertheless, I make fun of my time there and one aspect I think that anyone who lived in a yeshiva dorm can relate to is the dorm councilor, the dorm councilor or DC as I will call him was there to make yeshiva life a little harder and little more miserable, but sometimes they made your life better.
Spending 5 years in yeshiva, it took me five years of high school and I didn’t even graduate, taught me many lessons, it also allowed me to live through the misery and the joy of several different dorm councilors. DC’s ranged from the alter bachur (older yeshiva guy who for some reason could not find a shidduch – this was before they could blame the shidduch crisis, Alter Bachurs are always weirdoes by the way) to the power tripper who was probably treated like dirt as a kid and needed to take revenge on us por high schoolers by imposing Stalinist like punishments against minor offenses like not having your light off and the exact lights off time. We also had the “spaced out” do whatever the F you want DC – whom everyone loved.
During my first year of yeshiva, in the yeshivas heyday the DC was tough, there were two of them. The Rabbi whom we called Lefko would hop in his car if he suspected any foul play when we were checking out (checking out required you to report to the DC exactly where you intended to go and explain why you wanted to go there) and follow you to see that you actually went where you were going.
Rumor has it that Lefko would buy a movie ticket and go to the movies and sit behind yeshiva guys who committed the cardinal sin of attending a movie (sneaking out to the movies is one of the facts of yeshiva life – although I have no idea what the joy was – growing up with cable TV in the house put me in a different class) he would tap one of them on the back at the best part of the movie and drag the surprised yeshiva guys out of the theater. There were two different rumors – one that he would wait till the best part, and the other that he would wait for the guys outside the theater, I heard that he would never give them a ride home.
Lefko also employed the police interrogation tactic of seeing if stories matched up. Stories never matched up and so kids got caught doing all sorts of illegalities. I myself never attended movies, but as a baseball card addict I used to carry all of my good cards on shabbos with several friends to go to trading events at this local mall – besides for breaking shabbos by carrying (I never really equated carrying and using electricity on the same level – and yeshiva high schools too often assume that kids know this) we were going dressed in weekday clothing in the middle of the afternoon – we were never really caught.
In my later years I also met up with girls from the girls school, but that wasn’t until I knew the DC’s tricks well enough not to get caught.
My second year we had this guy by the name of Ari Lind, I only mention his name because he was a yeshiva guys dream of what a DC should be. He was semi-spaced out and felt that if you were nice and cordial kids would be nice back. I remember him allowing us to go out after curfew on cold winter nights to play ice hockey on the local pond, this involved bais medrish guys who couldn’t go during normal hours and was labor intensive as we had to shovel a court out of snow. He also wasn’t a bitch about secular music, some DC’s would take away your stereo if you listened to non-Jewish music out loud.
Our yeshivas policy on music was kind of whack. You couldn’t have recorded non-Jewish music unless it was instrumental – this was before I fell in love with jazz or classical music. You also couldn’t play non-Jewish music out loud, but you could listen to the radio with headphones, which I found odd because prerecorded music seems better than listening to Howard Stern on the radio (everyone listened to Howard Stern back in the day)
Ari wasn’t too bad, he would tell you to turn it off, but other DC’s would take it away fine you and get you trouble – mostly because they could – Ari was more into casual warnings, but others worked on a zero tolerance policy which I am sure pushed some kids to go off the derech in response to the hypocrisy of dorm councilors and other higher ups in the yeshiva.
One year the yeshiva macher decided to become dorm councilor, probably a great decision on the yeshivas part because we feared him dearly – I am sure he could have gone on to become a great lawyer if he wouldn’t have entered the “hockers gone ebay” world, because we feared his cross examinations – I kind of liked him, but many folks really disliked him. He would sit by his window and watch whoever left the building and make a note of the exact time. When I started yeshiva you could leave and enter from the front or the back of the building, leaving from the front allowed you more freedom from being seen, until they decided to lock the front door – forcing you to leave out the back with clear views from the Rosh Yeshivas office and other beis medrish guys windows.
This macher guy would interrogate you and he could tell easily if you were lying, he was also one of the first DC’s I had that would require receipts (in order to make sure you weren’t at a movie or a strip club – receipts from the location you went to were required – sometimes every half hour) which made it a big pain – I remember some guys strategizing about how they would sneak out of the movie theater – buy something in the mall and come back.
Thank God my DC’s and Rabbis trusted me to be riding my bike or skating, since I was riding or doing some sort of outdoors thing so often I gained the trust of these individuals through the years. So much trust that despite my shaggy hair, baggy clothing and association with all of the kids at risk I was never drug tested, even after dozens of kids were thrown out they never tested me – which is good because I didn’t smoke weed until I was 27 years old.
Some people may be quick to call the macher expert interrogator dorm councilor a schmuck, but I think he was more smart than schmucky, he really knew how to cut deals and make some money too – but he was honest and in my opinion a good guy. Later in my yeshiva career we actually had a schmuck for a dorm councilor.
We knew he would be a schmuck from the beginning, it may have been in the shadow of people he was related to – but he initiated detention, something that the yeshiva never had – but of course you could buy your out of detention. He would also love to snoop around your room – traditionally dorm councilors didn’t snoop unless it was an official dorm raid, in which they kicked everyone out of the dorm and went all out by flipping over mattresses and tearing down low ceilings in search of contraband.
This guy would use everything in his power to get your trouble and I think he enjoyed it, he also cracked down on things like leaving fro long periods of time on weeknights. I remember one time quite vividly as he publicly embarrassed me by calling me out on reading pornographic magazines (we all looked at them but who “read” porno) because I was “caught” reading a mountain bike magazine that had a woman riding a bike on the cover – she was wearing traditional cycling garb and he started screaming at me for bringing in shmutz to the dorm, he really went overboard – tearing the magazine in half and telling me all the horrible things that would happen to me.
I have heard through my years that our yeshiva was nothing compared to friends of mine who couldn’t even have secular books and the only magazine allowed was US News according to my friend who went to Ner Yisroel was kept behind the librarians desk and when you asked for it he would say “oh you want the US Zinus” Some yeshivas didn’t allow their students out at all and others would kick you out if you were caught with a non-Jewish CD – ours wasn’t that bad – but then again Rochester is very low on the yeshiva food chain.
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{ 57 comments… read them below or add one }
*counselors
I come from such a different world. I can’t imagine sending my hs kids to a school that didn’t suit them. Like the wrong shoes, major damage.
DC’s in general were the wort enemies of anyone that really wasn’t cut out to follow yeshiva rules.
We had the hypocrite that would raid our cigarettes whenever he ran out of his own. Had the power trip guys that would threaten hellfire and brimstone if you didn’t sleep with tzitzis, and idiots that would pour water on you if you didn’t jump out of bed when they came to wake you up.
For the most part, they were first class hypocrites, as we later found out about their escapades with girls,as well as illegal activities such as drugs, theft and insurance fraud, some ended up in prison, others OTD.
I only had 1 decent one for about 2 months, he was very cool, laid back and negotiable. The rest were all on power trips. Never figured out why yeshivas hired such losers.
Isn’t it assur to sleep with tzitzit on?
Ghottistyx,
Not according to Chassidim, it’s almost assur to sleep without them.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, ba’al tosif is not a problem in chassidut, in fact, the more the merrier.
actually its not assur to sleep with tzitzit on. not even close. its not baal tosif and you evidently dont know the first thing about baal tosif so dont go there. the arizal says one should wear his tzitzit when he sleeps and many of the codifiers follow his lead and state that it is praiseworthy.
not lookin forwward……
I started reading your blog and had to stop because of the bad memories it brought back.
Looking back, I found the whole yeshiva thing a complete and utter hypocrisy. Why are kids attending a yeshiva, a school for more intense study than an ordinary Jewish day school, that feel the need to have porn, and watch movies that are completely out of step with a yeshiva life? These kids obviously don’t want to be there. My recollection of dorm life were the occasional dorm raids carried out during school hours, looking for contraband. The rabbis would confiscate the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, for obvious reasons. Radios were forbidden because you might listen to that mind-blowing rock music and think terrible thoughts. They certainly didn’t see gangsta rap coming! I suppose the rabbis assume a certain amount of youthful indulgences are normal, before you are expected to knuckle down and lead a frum, adult life.
I attended yeshiva 35 years ago because my parents wanted me to, to become a rabbi. Mind you, I never had that intention, but I couldn’t deny my parents that chance. I was not rabbi material. I was never into my Jewish studies. I preferred science and math. Sure, I had no problems keeping up and contributing, when I cared to, but how often was that? It’s a shame what parents do to satisfy their blind wants, irrespective of their children’s abilities.
Jimmy,
You’re not alone. a fair portion of yeshiva students were exactly in the same boat, myself included. Frum parents have a dream, they usually invest a lifetime of effort in their kids religious education, no one likes to shatter those dreams, so most of us played along. I for one didn’t want to go, but was “convinced” after endless arguments.
Today, it seems that most yeshivas are a LOT pickier as to who gets accepted, yichus and money are becoming less important. Reject yeshivas are the exception, but there rules are by far less strict to accomodate the kids without trying to chase them off by seeming too frum.
Yeshiva dorms, teenage guys, open showers, lights out, long nights. I am getting nostalgic.
Read you comment, almost pucked my morning tea.
Especially Friday nights, after davening and the meal, when there were fewer staff around campus – those were the best.
Rebbes were all doing mitzvah night, I guess.
I imagined Friday afternoon at the mikvah was prime time, maybe it was just a warmup
You can’t imagine how weird and frustrating group mikvah is. Sure, you want to see (some of) the other guys, but you don’t want them seeing you eyeing them, etc etc. I do admire the straight boys that just strip down, shower, dunk, dress with no inhibitions. Even when they got erect or semi-erect, it never phased them. I do have great mental images that will last for a long long time. Same as with camp. For the frum gay guys, there are perks in an all-male environment.
Thats’ f****d up. I never saw anyone pop wood in the mik, I think that would put them on the homo list even if they were straight. Worst I saw were little kids pissing into the pool.
Just could help but be reminded of this saying:
“You stick out like a boner in the mikva”
avrummy you are siiiccckkkkk
were u one of those kids that wrestled with other boys just to feel them up? i bet u did you sick fuck.
And to think I actually wanted to BE a dorm councilor. But for a Seminary, not a HS, or is it just as bad?
Does this put me on the *Other Side*? With the Tznius patrol and the Rabbis?
Of course, I didn’t get the job. Perhaps it was to do with my “They aren’t allowed on Ben Yehudah?! I’m there myself all the time!” in the interview.
Ha ha. I’m so glad I never had to put up with this.
From a military standpoint, though, I dealt with this kind of garbage all the time.
Avrumy is disgusting and i am ashamed he has the gall to say he is frum. you are not frum. Frumkeit does not outright talk and perform such assure things with no remorse. you like to wear the clothes and talk the talk. you like shabbos candles, nothing more you are goyim. you are not yidden. stop prtending. being hypocrite. i don’t have a problem with gays being gay but to speak disrespectfully about non gay men at a mikvah is rude childish and a chillul Hashem. go be gay man if you are going to be- but don’t infiltrate a community, that you might look like you are a part of. its like a goyim wanting an aliyah. can’t happen. you want to be goyim be goyim. don’t try to be both because G-d doesn’t hear the prayers of an unrepentive heart. don’t bother davening if you have no intention of changing. you are a goy until you change. you are allowing sichra achra to take over. stop!! change!!! we all have battles and our yetzer hora one is not better than the other, but if i have to put mine down you do to! i have uber respect for those that struggle and fail. i also will respect those that decide to leave- go its terrible but that is your choice. at least you choose., i have no respect for those that do not wish to change because there lust and yetzerhora is corrupted to the core. if you want to be gay be gay- i don’t want to think if i am at mikvah some pervert is staring at me. you sicko. violator.
oh ya by the way you are making that stuff up about yeshiva. you are lying to make yidden look and sound like hypocrites. make them sound like goyisher kopf fakes. you are lying. you might have found one other guy that was taken over by ha sichra achra but this is not the norm and you are lying and making goyim out of benie yisrael. SHONDA.. chillul HAshem pervert!
There’s another thing I hardly miss about the yeshiva days–ineffective regurgitated mussar!
Obviously, if it upsets you so much, that means you’re dealing with your own issue yourself. You’re like that boy who used to stand by the shower in the gym locker “comparing sizes” who was still in denial. Is there something you’re not telling us, Frumger?
On a final note, the Sitra Achra comes in many forms. Even in a makom kaddosh, we find the kellipot hachitzonit scattered around. What do you reckon is the more effective approach, chasing it away or finding some kedusha in it? I dunno about you, but I hardly think the solution to a monkey throwing poop at you is taking a poop yourself and throwing it back.
One last thing. It’s called paragraph breaks. It just might make your waffle there more readable.
FrumGer, I think you are assuming that many of us that post here are still frum, or care. If you have found your way, wonderful. Being FFB and having gone OTD, I saw and still see a lot of hypocrisy. My biggest beef? People’s midos – how they treat other yidden. When I was in yeshiva, during Elul, people would get all lovey-dovey, asking for mechila for all the rotten things they did during the rest of the year. The day after Yom Kippur, that attitude was gone.
Of course not everyone in yeshiva fooled around. But those who did, did, and you can’t deny it by saying it doesn’t happen. Not to say that guys fooling around implies that they are gay. It just implies they were horny and enjoyed the fun of playing around with another guy or guys now and then. The fascinating thing is that no guy will ever admit to what went on in the dorms to other guys, obviously. It is a quasi-suppressed secret for most. Most married guys that fooled around never mention it again after they get married. Though some still fool around. That troubles me, because they may be putting their wives and families at risk – emotional and physical.
And, Frumger, you can’t deny that I am a part of the orthodox community because I accept that I am gay and will not live a life of rabbinically sanctioned celibacy. Why should I leave becaue I make you uncomfortable?
Avrumy,
Don’t know which yeshiva you went to, but in all my years in yeshiva I never heard of or saw anything like what you mention. That was 20 years ago. Guys that were horny just wacked off, no need to have another guy do it for you.
I don’t know whether to believe if this is something that happens in all yeshivas these days, or if it’s just your own experience / twisted fantasies of yeshiva boys gone homo.
No one asked gays to leave, they are simply expected to change. Not saying it’s easy, nor is keeping kosher, Shabbat, shomer negiah, Taharat hamishpacha, etc.
FYI, the yeshivas in Israel are more “active” which makes sense, as the guys are away from home, more lonely and isolated. Just to repeat, it doesn’t mean they are gay, just horny.
Come to think of it, I did hear stories about the Mikvah in Lod, don’t know if they were true or urban legends. Anyway, if a guy is lonely and isolated, there are plenty of warm and willing women in Israel, I’m sure they have plenty of body lotion for the ones that don’t get as lucky. Being lonely and away from home isn’t an excuse to switch sides. Remind me to keep my boys in North American yeshivas.
rabbinically sanctioned?!
umm its in the bible dude. g-d said it. assuming you are orthodox, then you believe that at least the old testament is god given and thus your homosexual escapades are not rabbinically prohibited but biblically prohibited. the torah calls it an abomination.
if this exists when i go to yeshiva…. oh dear!
This gives me flashbacks to my Army days. Everyone hid stuff in the ceiling tiles but people were stupid about it and they’d put the stuff right there by the bunk bed. I used to reach and stretch to get things across the room. I forgot and left jungle boots in the ceiling when I left Ft. Gordon-jungle boots that I bought with my own money and intended to keep.
Lefko was the DC when I was there. Ari Lind was actually a couple grades below me. Lefko was decent if you were decent to him. One of the reasons he didn’t take crap from anyone is that he was nearly (literally) killed by some stupid “I’m going to show the administration that they can’t control me” prank by the sophomores my freshman year which involved setting off a smoke bomb in his room (an enclosed, non-ventilated area) among other things. Needless to say, that made him a bit more “strict”. I actually got along fine with him since I treated him respectfully and, as a result, he never trailed me and I never got caught doing anything.
FrumGer are you for real? What are you even doing on the internet? This was a post for people who went to yeshiva for high school, which you obviously did not do. Get bent and deal with your latent homosexuality in a more positive manner than by pushing your absurdist mussar on a parody forum.
ha the Yeshiva I was in last year was so stricked that the D C got to be Mr nice guy’s both of them just went around with a paper putting a check or an X and that it they did if I was reading a non jewish book they didn’t care this year I am going to a yeshiva in Israel with like 500 students so I hope to be able to get around with as little detection as possible
Just letting you know that I tagged you in the Super-Power Meme. Too tired to link to it right now…
Ghottistyx-
look don’t assume anything, i have never been gay in my life i am happily married and am gladly with my wife, i am not religious because of my family, i am releigious for myself so if i was gay i would not be married and would not live frum.
Also there is nothing wrong with mussar when someone is attacking an institution that is kedushah. just like i am not going to let some one talk about performing said lewdness in a shul in front of the aron kodesh i am not going to allow them to say such things with pride about what they did or did not do in a yeshiva dorm. what is holy is holy. i am just as upset about Heshy proudly boasting about his hidden porn stash. what does it say if your yetzerhora takes over and you are compelled to commit a sin go to another town cover your head- hide yourself and do the act in secret so the name of Israel is not defiled. in other words be ashamed if you sin or fail!!! be ashamed about your past sins you hide what you do.. No one understands why these DC’s are so strict, because a yeshiva is a place and time of consecration to hashem. period. and i would rather chase the proud unrepentive homosexual out of our camp then let him destroy another mans life.
ITS NOT THE ACT THAT I AM ATTACKING REALLY, IT IS THE MAN WITH AN UNREPENTITIVE HEART, THAT IS PROUD OF HIS ABOMINATIONS, AND WILL NOT CHANGE— HOW IS THAT BETTER THAN AHAB OR HIS ABOMINABLE WIFE..?
mercy and forgiveness, acceptence is for people that are tryi9ng to change, this is not the case. Moshe stoned in public this type, and while we don’t have the authority to do that in this context, i will say change or leave, absolutely. nothing wrong with that.
your not going to just let a gonif who openly says if he is in your shul he will steal- if he can all your sefer torahot, you would not let him stay in your shul, and keep stealing sefer torahot are you? course not your shul would go broke. but here we are dealing with mens lives, and we are supposed to roll over for this apostate, for this aposkorim . no way.
all the ideas you are mentioning about sichra achra and finding intristic kedushah in all things where written by Chazel who- if they ever met this unrepentitive proud “frum” looking yid who refused to change- they would not have let him 100 feet within the shul. they would not ever let him go to the mikvah, and would have shunned him from the comunity and his parents would have shiva for him. Omaiyn… Hashem hates yetzerhora, which i have -sure… but He hates nothing more than an unrepentitive heart. one who boasts about his sin and is using it as a badge of honor- taking it lightly.., this G-d hates more than the act itself.
so i say avrumy you want to change, I will help anyway i can- but if not- go down the road and just be a goyim- leave the community alone! just as i would not tollerate someone looking frum trying to secretley selling drugs in my neighborhood, how much more should i not want this perversion to be in the house of yisroel. get it out! its not even the act itself- its the unrepentiviness that is the problem
Obviously, you’ve never heard of a “beard”. Simply explained, she’s a woman you date/marry/say you’ve known biblically so you can look straight. For those of you from New Jersey, think Dina Matos McGreevy, whose husband , former Gov. James McGreevy, was secretly walking on the brown side while being “happily married”. Oh the furor when he got caught (with an Israeli intern, no less). Currently, he’s studying to be an Episcopalian Priest, as they are more tolerant of his sexuality than Catholicism (his birth religion) is. My point? I’m not impressed by “happily married with kids”. As Bob Dylan said, “something is happening here but you don’t know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?”
And what if the institute of Kedusha is behaving in a manner of Hillulla? What then? You are so quick to judge regular people who behave in a to’evadik manner, but if an entire institution acts as if it’s supposed to imbue Kedusha but does the complete opposite, it’s NOT okay to chastise it? Why should these people you are defending receive special considerations? It is due to this zeitgeist that people like Lanner & Kolko were at large for over 30 years.
As for Hashem hating yetzer hara, this is one of the more fundamental points I still have issue with. I consider the Yetzer Hara a necessary evil. If Yehuda didn’t listen to his Yetzer Hara, the bloodline of David HaMelech would never have started. And David HaMelech himself with Batsheva: who would have ruled after him if he didn’t sin with her and give birth to Shelomo? If Adam and Chava had never eaten the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge, we’d still be living like animals, running around naked in an ignorant bliss and not knowing good from bad. Now can you honestly tell me that you romanticize life without a Yetzer Hara?
I could discuss this point for hours, but Al Regel Achat, the Yetzer Hara is a necessary evil, because without it, there would be no good. I know that Rambam, Luzzatto, et al. consider HaShem to be the absolute intrinsically imperative good, but think of the logical fallacy that entails. If God was that, then evil would have to be separate, and that would have to mean that evil comes from an opposite being, and we risk turning Judaism into a poorly disguised Gnosticism or unthinking man’s Neo-Platonism. I think that rather, the Sitra Achra is the Yang to the Shechina’s Yin: one can’t exist without the other. If there is no Sitra Achra, then our deeds simply become meaningless, and we enter a slippery slope that leads to Nihilsim (gasp!)
One of my favorite lines from the Mishna is by Akavya ben Mehalalel in Edoyoth. “Ma’asecha Yakrivucha, U’Ma’a'secha Yarchikucha”, your actions will bring you closer, and your actions will distance you. As an existentialist, I find this to be one of the most empowering Mishnaic sayings I’ve seen. Meditate on it.
spell check, baby, spell check
I agree that Hashem created both good and evil. So all things in this world has the divine in it. to make a beautiful painting you have to use dark colors. one canot exist without the other. Sure. that being said G-d though He has made good and evil He choose for us to do good and abhor what is evil. also there are consequences when we give into our yetzerhora, every instance you mentioned, had good comeout of them because Hashem is merciful and he can turn a bad situation into a good one. but each paid for there crime in there own ways. Dovid Hamelech had his first child die, because uriah died. life for a life. Yehuda- this one i don’t find to be a assur… Tamar needed to carry on the line, and prostitution was not look on so terrible a thing back in those days. She decieved him but did it to save the family line and to bring honor to here family. Yehuda- his confession of his wrong doing caused him to have a place in the world to come Sotah 7b..
And in every event these people became Baal Teshuvah, which is the whole point a tzadik will fall even seven times but will get back up;. that is the point of my arguement. we all fail we all give in to our yetzerhora, but its in teshuvah when Hashem can turn our situation around. Avrumy is not repentitive. he doesnot care about the will of hashem, he obviously doesn’t really care about Torah, so then why be so called frum or look frum? that to me is just social judaism- he could go be a reformer. there is no chavanah when you blantenly disobey a huge dictum on the torah and don’t care to do Teshuvah. that is the problem.
Teshuvah for WHAT??? Being gay? I was created b’tzelel elokim, just like you.
Better to be gay and married, and fooling around like so many of the other orthodox gay men?
Waht does being created b’tzelem elokim have anything to do with your transgressions?
Hitler was created btzelem elokim too, does that mean we must love and respect him?
The point is that that by openly defending your perverted lifestyle, you are challenging a major prohibition. One that desecrates Shabbat in public isn’t considered trustworthy for things such as kashrus or being witness, even though he might keep kosher and be the most honest person.
Sp too, you can’t justify being openly gay and call yourself frum, even if you go to shul 3 times per day. The guys that fool around in hiding (I doubt the are “som many”) aren’t much better, but at least they don’t flaunt their sick ideas / sins in by shoving them in everyone’s face. Definitely nothing to be proud of.
I’m sorry, I lost you at the comparison between homosexuality and being responsible for one of the worst genocides of our people in living memory. Yes, Hitler was also created B’Tzelem Elokim, but he was not a good person, both between God and man & between man and himself. Yes, you can argue that he was a vegetarian and against cruelty to animals, but no one is completely good or bad (I must disagree with the Chassidic concept of the Tzaddik).
But seriously, can you call Avrumy a bad man without even knowing him or what he’s like, homosexuality aside? I challenge you to look me, a full-blown atheist in the eyes and tell me I’m a bad person for not keeping shabbos, kosher, or wearing a yarmulke. I’m pretty sure God considered Hitler a bad man, even taking his vegetarianism or love for animals into account. But only he knows the inner thoughts of man, and unless I were to hear that Avrumy is secretly the next Jeff Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, or Ted Bundy, I would NOT write him off as a bad man just because he’s openly gay.
I wasn’t comparing Avrumy to hitler. I’m not saying he’s bad either, nobody’s perfect. My point was that trying to renconcile homose*xuality and Judaism doesn’t work. Period.
There are no two ways about it. There is no valid opinion that claims it’s “OK” as long as no mishkaz zachur happens. There is no valid opinion that says that making out, touching or anything else outside a valid marriage is OK, no matter how hard it is and no matter the orientaion.
Frum people like Avrumy shouldn’t be proud of their situation, nor of the exploits they lived during their teenage / yeshiva years if they were against halacha. Do you think that a frum person that went OTD for a few years in between should be proud of breaking Shabbat, eating non kosher or any other sins they may have comitted?
Why do homos feel they are in a “special” category of their own, aren’t they simply sinners like the rest of us?
How many other types of sinners brag about and ask for “acceptance” of their sins as “normal” by the frum world?
Just to name a couple:
1. Any Jew who works for a bank, credit agency, et al. Safe assumption is that at least ONE of your customers will be Jewish. Ipso Facto, they’d be violating the laws of Ribbit. Our people have proudly been involved in the banking industry for quite some time, even before the famous Rotschild clan. Let’s not forget the immortal Shylock’s justification for usury in Merchant of Venice: that lending money gratis ruins the economy! So yes, any Jew who works for a bank or credit agency is violating this law.
2. On a similar note, I’ve heard more than once that if you fully understood the laws of Ribbit, you’d be afraid to ever USE a credit card again. I’m sure plenty of people have proudly violated that one.
3. I know a few doctors who are Kohanim. One I know works in a hospital, one where it’s pretty likely that he’d eventually come in contact with a Jewish cadaver. Now I know that in Albert Einstein (YU’s med. school), accommodations are made for Kohanim in anatomy class so that no Jewish cadavers are used, but in the real world it’s harder to guarantee a Jew-free cadaver zone in a hospital. I’m sure the ultra-frum approach would be that a Kohein shouldn’t be a doctor. I consider that as asinine as saying that a man shouldn’t do CPR on a woman if it could save her life.
Ghottistyx,
Jew that works for a bank doesn’t violate anything. First, he doesn’t own the bank, second, their is something called a heter iskah, that’s how the Israeli Jew owned banks get away with it. Also, charging ribbis to a goy is actually a mitzvah (Rambam).
Kohanim are allowed to be doctors in hospitals as they are invilved in saving lives, which overrides the possibility of tuma. Same goes for intersex CPR.
A good friend of mine that is a Kohen got a heter to stay in the hospital with his wife during labor, as just his being there alone “appeased her mind” enough to warrant the heter.
One more thing about cadavers: Only a Jewish cadaver is metameh. Goyim don’t have the level of kedusha while alive to create a possibility of tumah when they die. Therefore, I kohain can visit a museum with mummies or pass through a non Jewish cemetary, although the practice isn’t recommended as sometimes Jew are buried there as well.
Explain this “heter iskah” concept? Whether or not one is charging ribbit to a goy, if the bank had even ONE Jewish customer, wouldn’t the bank then be oveir ribbit? And wouldn’t it be forbidden for a Jew to work for it?
Re: the cadavers, the question is that if he’s working in a hospital which gets Jewish patients, ipso facto some Jew will die while he’s in their presence. I forget the halakhic term for a person putting themselves in a situation where sin is likely to cross their paths, but is this not one of those?
Ghottistyx,
Here is an interesting articles on Ribbis and Iska:
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5758/behar.html
I know kohanim that work in the Jewish general hospital, Jews die there almost every day. It seems that the necessity of their life saving duties override the prohibition of being metameh. The fact that they aren’t serving in the Beit Hamikdash probably gets factored in too.
I know a Kohain that works in the hospital’s pharmacy, if he is allowed to work there, so much more so a doctor.
If you’re in either situation and want to be sure, ask a competent rav.
Phil avers: “Only a Jewish cadaver is metameh. Goyim don’t have the level of kedusha while alive to create a possibility of tumah when they die. ” Maybe yes, maybe no. That this is part of Judaism is frightening.
However, it can certainly end the “Who is a Jew?” controversy. After someone of questionable ancestry dies, check for tum’ah in the room and you will know whether the deceased was really a Jew or not. Problem solved.
You can use a tum’ameter.
Avrumy,
I’m working on a patent for one as we speak. Problem is that the laws are extremely complex, so it’s more complicated than a simple radiation meter.
According to Judaism, the non Jew only has nefesh bahamis, which put his
SPIRITUAL level on par with an animal. Therefore, just as a dead animal doesn’t generate tumah, ditto for non Jews.
Again, this is on a spirital level only, before all of you jump down my throat and accusing me of calling non Jews “animals”. For any arguments, refer to the appropriate sections of the Tanya.
ghottistyx
your a bad person for not keeping shabbos or kosher. as a matter of fact, youll have to pay for it eventually. this is not my opinion but my belief. its also the belief of your fore-parents and ancestors.
i could try to sound politically correct about it but i wont. classical judaism believes that you are a sinner and you will be punished for it. i dont even need to come onto rabbinical teachings. the bible clearly tells someone to keep sabbath. its one of the ten commandments right along side murdering and killing and thus, yes if you dont keep the sabbath, you are a bad person according to jewish standards. his equation to hitler was stating that tzelem elokim doesnt automatically lead to a good person or even respect.
in judaism we believe in reward and punishment as well as the importance of the details. yes g-d cares whether you get into a car and shabbat. and yes you will get punished if you know better.
avrumy,
you are a sick man! its funny how i have been in yeshiva for over 10 years now and havent witnessed any of the things you are referring to and im sure if we were to take a poll the vast majority will have no idea what you are talking about.
your logic is fercocted avrumy bottom line like anyone in your position that obiviously feels guilty will try and justifies their position, with an excuse. if you were a christian you would be saying the devil made me do it, but since your a jew and we are not like that it is– G-d made me do it. bottom line we all are responible for our own actions, we all have a choice. you do not believe in the authority of the Torah, you do the frum type things either out of repitition or because you think our traditions are “cool” it separates you from the norm. so you use judaism like one would a mohawk or pink hair, it is to be different , unique. i tell you though you do not get credit for the things you do in that manner.
you must have chavanah you must approach Hashem with charedi lav, approach G-d softly humbly. and when you boast of your sin and act as if Hashem wants you to do it you are making a chillul Hashem literally. but i am sure you will not say that- you get what i mean but i know inside you do have a yetzer hatov that is crying out for Hashem and despises that part of you. and i am sure you have fought the sichra achra in the past but because it has wiped the floor with you for so long you have become cold and even come to rely on it.
this same thing happened to many yidden during Hashoah, they where so beaten and destroyed became so dependant on the goyim they even some took the side of the goyim and killed other yidden for them. also in prison when some men ahve been in prison for so long when they get out they want to get back in because they cannot funtion with freedom, the first chance they get they commit another crime to get back in. we become reliant on our vices we become reliant on our prisons. but it does not have to be. we all give in- but keep fighting. don’t give in.
avrumy- honestly i have thought about this a lot, and at first i was mad at your boasting and your pride, arrogance against the very thing you say you want to represent. i was angery but it took me this long with hashems help to get it into my block head that- that is just a front. that you are a prisoner. you have lost hope and now, because the sichra achra has kicked your butt so long that you have just given in, like a new slave when he fights for so long then one day he starts taking orders and even thinks his master is right. it took me this long.
I am sorry i had not figured that out by now. i hope you relize that you are in prison that this worlds lusts and desires are a prison and we must break out of that thing. break out avrumy many people have gotten over this thing, many.
Trade one prison for another. If he were to take your suggestion, then he’d be condemned to living the rest of his life a lie in the prison of feinted-frumkeit. Now here’s my question. Do you REALLY think God is that stupid? Do you really think that if he were to spend the rest of his life pretending to be an ehrliche-yid while secretly harboring “toevadikke fantasies”, that God would not see through it? Now if I were the omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent God that most Yiddin claim to worship, I would probably much rather a person live a hillullah lifestyle and be honest about it than live a kosher one dishonestly.
Don’t even try using the cliched Pascal’s Wager here. I’d rather be sent to hell for honestly disbelieving than dishonestly believing. Besides, Pascal’s wager is a “fixed die”. It would only work if were as simple as “believing” or “denying”, and our God is a “jealous God” who demands quite a bit more than simple faith.
FrumGer, I truly appreciate your concern and kind words.
To use a very cliché analogy, let’s say for a moment that when you were growing up you learned that attraction to women was forbidden by the rabbis and by society in general. Now, assuming that you are a heterosexual, what would you do? Would you pray to Hashem to take away to your perverted feelings towards girls in your class. Would you say tehilim every day to make you homosexual? Would you secretly buy Playboys and hide them deep in your closet? Would you go to doctors and therapists to “change”?
Do you think you could force yourself to find men attractive because G-d and your community demand it of you? Would you go through the charade of dating men in the hope that eventually you will find one that you like enough to make a sham life together? Think about this and try to see it from the opposite side.
I post here because I am not the only orthodox gay man on the internet. It is important for others to know that we exist and are part of YOUR community, shul, kollel, yeshivah, chevra mishnayos, bikur cholim, whether you like it or not. As long as mishkav zachor (as per Rashi) is not committed (and it is not by most gays who truly consider themselves orthodox), you have no tainah to me or anyone else. Kol tuv.
Avrumy,
I find this discussion fascinating, considering that ‘pru urevu’ is the first mitzvah, and, perhaps, one of the most important mitzvahs, given that it determines the continuation of any species.
Yet, here you are, rationalizing your actions in the usual rabbinical way. I wonder if you consider yourself preferences normal, considering that reproduction is important.
I differentiate between someone who engages in homosexuality as a purely sexual act vs. someone who is attracted to their own sex and gets both their emotional and physical fulfillment that way. The former is sex play, whereas the latter is abnormal.
avrumy… were u the big older bully that used to wrestle with the younger guys just to feel them up?
Alter “bochurim” cannot blame the shidduch crisis because it was about girls, not boys.
How do you all have so much time to write such long posts, I don’t even have the time to read them all?