We cant have you over because we have daughters is a classic scenario in the frum community, I vaguely understood the concept when I was 16 and they ran a risk of me making eyes at their daughter too much – which I would never do – but this might have been what they feared, because what on earth would some 16 year old yeshiva student be able to do at the table with the host families daughter?
As I got older this feature of the frum community got quite old, turning me or any male down simply because there were teenage girls at the table is nonsense. As a 27 year old male I have no interest in girls under the age of 21, yeh I will glance over the mechitza at them, but I am not into the whole “if there is grass on the field play ball” comments that many folks in the younger generations may say.
On a side note I just love how whenever someone makes a suggestive comment about an underage girl someone makes a comment on the legality of it, not on the fact that these girls are old enough to be our daughters, interesting indeed.
Seriously though, the unnecessary precautions that frum families take to protect their daughters from any single guy are insane. I’m a 27 year old dude and I have been turned down from eating at peoples houses because they have a 13 year old daughter, seems a bit nuts to me, I can understand the sleeping factor, although what on earth would happen – do people think that anyone over 25 and single is a rapist?
Now if you do happen to make it to a frum family with young teenage daughters the seating can get a bit annoying and funny. Everyone will be seated comfortably and someone will object to a single guy sitting next to a single girl, because God forbid when they pass the chrain to each other their hands will touch and suddenly they will be clearing off the kugel and cholent so they could have sex with each other on the dining room table.
What on earth are these frummies scared of?
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{ 88 comments… read them below or add one }
But if they had a hot 18, 19, or 20 year old, would you consider having sex with them on the shabbos table, Heshy?
That;s a bit younger, but if between hamotzi and washing while all the women were discussing ways to make broccoli salad less soggy and the men were talking cell phones, I may be able to get a quickie in…
Of course you have a legitimate point.
But, most people probably consider you a “bochur” and they just have the no bochur policy while they have teenage girls at home.
Assuming you don’t want your daughter hanging out with guys, I would say that 15 and older would be too old to have single guys at the table. But there also has to be an age at which the guy is “too old” for your 15 year old to develop a “crush”. 27 is probably above that number.
But, I am sure there are plenty of families who don’t care if their daughters hang our with guys. Those people shouldn’t have a problem.
As far as sleeping. I would not want any guy I barely know sleeping in the same vicinity as my daughter (and maybe even son- hamayvin yavin). Too many horror stories of sexual abuse or even peeping-Toms to be comfortable with that.
You’ve really put this topic from the dirtiest side as I could imagine that (not that I have problem, just making a not), but why do you think about about your side here? What if they are afraid that the girl would look at you and will have a crush on you? After that her mind will be filled with the guy they had over the Shabbos table instead of learning laws of tznius in school…
I don’t want to discuss legibility of this point of view, but I am just trying to look at your point from another side.
I agree it is ridiculous. There is no angle you can really look at it and come out clean.
Are they are afraid of spontaneous shidduch?
Well there is a crisis on, so be happy.
Are they afraid the guy will have “bad thoughts”?
Well, if he will, he probably is going to any way, but whatever happened to dan l’kaf zecut?
Are they afraid the girl will get a crush?
Well then it is an excellent chinuch opportunity to teach them you can’t always have what you want.
Depending on the living arrangements, I get not having people stay over, as well teenagers(male or female) can be flighty and there may be “tznius accidents”(aka seeing a lot more of someone than you ever intended to).
my comment is inappropriate and makes reference to a fictional chulent accident that landed someone in the ER as the result of pre-motzi pritzus. yikes.
Ehhhh if I’m trying to keep my daughter as sheltered as possible I can kind of see their logic (as ridiculous as it is) in it. I was a teenage girl once and I remember thinking of certain men/sons of family friends that came over that were attractive and having these 15 minute crushes on them. I suppose they’re trying to keep their daughter’s hormones in check.
they are scared of ending the shidduch crisis.
Didn’t you know that looking at girls is evil? It would be lifnei iver if they invited you to anywhere table that had pretty girls. Last thing they need is some over the hill perv trying to play footsies with their innocent daughters.
On a side note, I wonder if frummies would invite openly gay guys or gals if they have kids of the same gender…
I’ll never forget what happened when I phoned a cousin of mine to let her know that my daughter had just gotten engaged….. to a boy she met when he was a guest at our Shabbos table.
The cousin exclaimed, “You have single guys at your table with an unmarried daughter???!??!”
Ummm…. yes…….
What’s the worst that could happen?
If this is it – bring it on!
heshy,
they probably read your blog and know what a deviant perv you are. literally this is like multiple trashy blogs in a row. that is why they don’t let you over. point in fact-
in the coffe house rant
you mentioned how you go to coffee houses hoping to either make girls eye candy for you by ooggling them- or picking one up, and you talked about making out with someone in public- very trashy btw… ya i’d let you over to oogle at my daughter..
Chumrah about driving through stop signs…
positive message but opens the door for all kinds of pervy comments, and you clearly just check girls out everyone knows you would be the last guy on earth to drive through a stop sign to be pious….ya id let you over with my daughter
Shabbat is for Shtupping-
though you didn’t write it the blog it is racy at best, and the comments are even worse…
Frum looking man caught on tape dancing with girls at parade -
This is a dirty untznuit video showing two people faking having sex and grinding each other- and you are suggesting its a frum jew. and even worse you say “you wish it was a jew,” because that is would be much more funny. ya right id let you over, in a million years
Don’t worry I’m not going to have sex with your daughter at the shabbos table …
Note the pervert comment…
That;s a bit younger, but if between hamotzi and washing while all the women were discussing ways to make broccoli salad less soggy and the men were talking cell phones, I may be able to get a quickie in…
ya right come one over lets sing shalom alechiem together my pious G-d fearing yid…
Also you are 26 years old and not married this makes SIRENS GO OFF- dont you know that? I am 25 and i think that is weird as hell. the mommas and papas think it is really really wierd. basically anyone not married afre 23 is a freak but no one will tell you that in the frum world. because in everyones mind there are only 3 real reasons someone won’t get married..
1. because they want more than one woman and try to sleep around
2. There a secret Homosexual
3. They are poor, and who wants a poor husband or son in law??
4. No girl is interested because of either of the first 3 reasons…
i would say how you look- but its not really true.
a kind hearted modest gentleman-like, pious shlubby, slob, yid can get a great shidduch or at least a shabbos meal..
A kind hearted sleazy pervy immature acting 26 year old that has a blog that is ever dedicated to increasing his status as a sleazy perv- cannot get a shidduch or a shabbos meal where there are girls.
heres a hint heshy- they WANT to marry their girls off. Just not to you. even at 16- engagement for a year… married by 17 or almost 18 is totally normal. they don’y want You as a son in law.
you have brought this on yourself its hillarious that you blog about it now- get turned down? you think you would have learned when you made your big apology because that girl you liked found out who you really are.
clean up your act, get a little more frum- stop looking and talking- how you want to sleep with every girl walking, and you will get all the shabbos dinners with all the 16year olds you want.
I would never invite you over for shabbos if i had a teenage girl- its the image you portray. because some yenta has seen you blog and has told everyone, course they wont tell you that, but i promise you you got the scarlett letter on your back my man.
i am saying this because you need a little self reflection i know its harsh and for that i am sorry, but man you blog is getting worse and worse… i think you are generally funny and i think you do have a good heart, but you need to grow up and stop acting like a cave man pervert like you are on american pie.
“I have no interest in girls under the age of 21″
Hesh
Thats the biggest BS I’ve ever heard you say.
Oh by the way, if the family says you can’t eat dinner with them ’cause they have girls’ you should take it as a compliment-it means your a good lookin guy.Cause if you were ugly nothing would happen anyway.
“do people think that anyone over 25 and single is a rapist?”
No.But they do think people who host rated R websites such as frumsatire.net have crossed a certain line(“breach in trust” shall we say) which proove that there is a very likley chance they would have s*x with our daughters at any given oppertunity.
When I was engaged, I brought my fiance over to England for pesach. God forbid she and I could both sleep in my parents house, so my parents asked me to sleep at a relative’s house. The house was empty as the relatives were away. Needless to say, my fiance and I took mucho walkos which somehow always ended up at the empty house where we screwed like bunny rabbits.
The no single guys over for meals due to teenage daughters is a classic frummy retarded self-imposed chumra. Though in my case, they were correct, I totally would have been checking out their daughters (and possibly wife) all thru the meal making sure to take mental notes for later!
Much like a man would most likely not marry a women who is a prostitute.How does he know he will have any future issues of infidelity?Maybe she’ll stop hookin after they get married?Yes maybe,but again very highly unlikely.
frum parent
I posted a similar comment, but he blocked it…
he is definatly not getting shabbos dinners, because he acts like a perv and talks about girls in worst way. they are all just eye candy and food for his lusty thoughts. he has a bad reputation that this site inforces.
test
frum parent– i had similar comment that he blocked. he is definatly not getting shabbos dinners because he acts like a pervert. having a blog that you spew out your lusty thoughts and desires everyday gives you a scarlett letter for most Ta’tes
Frum parent right on! he is not getting shabbes dinners because he has a blog that has all his lusty pervy thoughts out on the table.
Right on Frum Perent
parent
he keeps blocking my comments
put my comments up heshy, what r u a dictator no free press?
heshy’s a dictator… what i said was good and real, what you don’t like that?
Frum Parent, anyone who writes “sex” as “s*x” has serious psychological problems.
you think parents dont use the inet? that they haven’t seen your blog? that people dont gossip? you got a scarlett letter…PERVY
BLOCKED AGAIN
Frum Ger, sometimes it takes a moment for posts to show up.
Fourth sex themed post in a row. Keep up the good work, Heshy!
They are not blocked, they are getting caught by the filter and have to be approved.
Actually I figured by placing more offensive posts up I would get rrid of all the “holier than thou” readers and finally gain back my intellectual audience of folks who could read something their Local Orthodox Rabbi may not approve of – though mysteriously out of 4000 unique hits to my site yesterday I received maybe 20 comments complaining, one facebook message and NO EMAILS!!!
I did enjoy how the first 10 comments were the regular old intelligent folks who visit this blog and then everyone had to start flinging dirt around.
For those of you who think I’m a perv – you just don’t understand artists nor satirists….
A Nuran,
S*x and f*ck are ways to avoid the spam filter.
To be fair, my mother never had a problem with having guys over, and my 17-year-old sister ended up dating (and sleeping with) a 26-year-old guy. But that’s an anomaly, and one my mother is unaware of.
Heshy read Chaim potocks- My name is asher lev, it brings up the problems of being an “artist” ( if you are one) and living by a code of laws in your life. it almost cant be done. i am not talking about being a drawer or writer i am talking about art in the true sense there are no bounderies. i write draw paint etc but i cannot really call myself an artist. because there is nothing more diametrically opposed living by rules guidelines and being an artist.
as to satire, sure i understand satire but again- satire in its true form canot be held up in the same hand within a system of rules. satire is anarchial, and irreverent. i think you are probably constaintly coming to a line and stoping though you want to go on through it but can’t because the system you belong to. that means you are not a true satirist.
so to do either of these truelly (and research the philiosphy of these two things before you comment back) to do either in the true sense you either need to go Completely OTD or you will remain a poser of the craft.
and i am sorry anyone that disagrees with you is unintelligent and non intellectual i did not know you were the standard.
To FrumGer – You talk about heshy’s sex issues and girls so much you must have been a catholic who watched american pie for lustful thought development.
Leave heshy alone, you are not his thought or word police, what’s a frummie like you reading this blog for anyway? to gain torah insights and laws? your a bored stuck up person who gave up your freedoms to become “religious”. you probably vote republican and don’t want a national health plan and are turned on by sarah palin pics. there are lots of places for frum or jewish humor… read teluskins book on jewish humor, google jewish humor. LEAVE HESHY ALONE! WHO APPOINTED YOU HIS RAV? go give mussar to your family and friends, not to nice folks whose blog you patronize by reading and commenting on. there are other much more controversial blogs you can flame on, maybe that excites you!!!
No class brother…you could of discussed the same issue in a classy and less dirty way!!!
Seriously speaking, the issue probably comes from the facts that we aren’t allowed to eat with goyim (especially bread), as it might lead to intermarriage.
We see that Moshe Rabbeinu married the priests daughter after being invited over to “break bread), hence the prohibition.
Though this should be common practice between Jews as a way to end the so called shidduch crisis, I can see why any frummy wouldn’t want to take their chances with Hesh
Frum Ger I am not talking about you – but there are others who keep commenting from the same IP address but under different names that are awfully annoying.
I understand your POV and that’s fine, but you have obviously not gone through the whole blog, the same complaints happen when I write about shidduchim or kiddush for 4 posts straight, that’s just life its how it happens.
FYI the video was posted on the forum right after the parade I just didn’t get to watch it until yesterday, so it would have been posted sooner.
The post title was going to be awkward frum seating arrangement moments – but smilar to the title “have you ever been shidduch date raped” I went for the funnier more attractive title.
Contrary to popular belief I do listen to mussar, you can ask the countless people who take the time to email me – if its a good point that I agree with like when I wrote about the poor fellow from kollel who committed suicide and removed the post (got bashed for removing it by the way) and I have removed over 30 videos and 100 posts in my career, I do remove posts – but as will be explained in a dialogue video with several people as panelists – I will discuss my reasons for keeping certain posts up.
Frum Ger – your comments are appreciated.
E Fink – But, most people probably consider you a “bochur” and they just have the no bochur policy while they have teenage girls at home.
I don’t quite understand how this would work in practice. Scenario is that you have a bunch of kids, male and female. They become teenagers. Do you then stop having people over for meals until they are married and out of the house? (which could potentially be a period of 10, 15, or even 20 years) Does this mean that hachnasat orchim must cease while you have teenagers are in the house? Sounds like a rather dreary lifestyle to me!
As far as sleeping. I would not want any guy I barely know sleeping in the same vicinity as my daughter (and maybe even son- hamayvin yavin). Too many horror stories of sexual abuse or even peeping-Toms to be comfortable with that.
So, I guess this rules out ever having bochurim over for a shabbaton/shabbat limud, or just as friends of your sons? I guess unless you farm out all the daughters to other families that plan on only having girls in their house over shabbos.
What about events like shalom zochers, bar mitzvahs, etc when you might want to have all sorts of relatives/friends over for shabbos?
Finally, how can they allow brothers and sisters to live in the same house in the first place? It is just as likely that their own son/daughter is an abuser or peeping tom as their neighbors son/daughter is. Maybe boy and girl siblings shouldn’t be permitted to live in the same house? At birth, all girls could be placed in “girl homes”, and all boys could be placed in “boy homes”. That would certainly limit the kinds of problems you describe above!
smoothshemp
well i did happen to vote republican this time because i think obama is all fluff, some rock star that a bunch of morons got into office because BET and MTV told them to. but i would love to see univeral healthcare. we are the only 1st world country with out it and that is absurd. i would consider myself more of a democratic socialist actually. i hate capitalism i hate the way this country is run, and i think that 8 % of this country controling 90% of the wealth is terrible.
I am not his rav. Heshy was complaining about a problem in his life out to the public… i answered with a probable reason.
everone takes mussar. i myself have on this blog, you are giving it now.
personally i think heshy has a lot more to him then what he puts out there, i also think he is at a crossroads in his life and has been for a while, his writing shows that.
and yes i am agianst the pervy comments blogs etc, but i love a lot about this blog, really this blog just gives me a place to laugh or kvetch if i want. i am a yid do you expect anything else? and not i am not a cathy never been one… american pie yep i did watch it like 5-6 years ago when i first came out way before i was really frum or married. now to me it has just become the icon of immature pervy guys..
bottom line if i wanted to be agrreable with everything and everybody i would probably puke myself to death.
“dialogue video”? “panelists”? hmm….
“i think obama is all fluff, some rock star that a bunch of morons got into office because BET and MTV told them to. but i would love to see univeral healthcare. we are the only 1st world country with out it and that is absurd.”
100% agreed – I didn’t vote because I wasn’t registered in the right location and I was in Texas.
“personally i think heshy has a lot more to him then what he puts out there, i also think he is at a crossroads in his life and has been for a while, his writing shows that.”
Have been for some time, ever since I realized at 18 when my dad said I had to support myself and I said shit I don’t want to sit at a desk and now I sit at a desk all day – I want to leave NY – but I sticking around for a few personal reasons which you readers may or may not learn in the near future.
“bottom line if i wanted to be agrreable with everything and everybody i would probably puke myself to death.”
Tis the truth, critics are hard to come by…but my blog has always had this sexual tinge, mostly because I am a rabble rouser – have you ever read my piece on the porn collections in my yeshiva? Or my most commented on post ever about shomer negiah? Notice how I never talk about my personal sexual life, most of my stuff is pretty – this post came about after someone at a shabbos meal mentioned I should talk about frum seating arrangements because they have a bunch of relatives that were um ahem known amongst the yeshiva guys so they had to be careful – they weren’t careful enough obviously, but thats where the post came from – I haven’t had to deal these issues in 10 years at least.
Mark:
Does this mean that hachnasat orchim must cease while you have teenagers are in the house? Sounds like a rather dreary lifestyle to me!
You can have families over. Having single bochurim is the issue, not “guests” and that is not dreary at all. Have guests with children of comparable age and gender to your children.
So, I guess this rules out ever having bochurim over for a shabbaton/shabbat limud, or just as friends of your sons?
Yes. Unless you have a guest area that is separate from the family sleeping area. So a basement or guest house would be different.
What about events like shalom zochers, bar mitzvahs, etc when you might want to have all sorts of relatives/friends over for shabbos?
In my experience the shabbos guests get farmed out to friends and neighbors.
Maybe boy and girl siblings shouldn’t be permitted to live in the same house?
Brothers and sisters can be a big problem. I have seen it happen in more than one instance. But, you have a responsibility as a parent to raise your kids, you are not responsible to have anonymous company. Further, I am a believer in sending teenage boys to yeshiva, partially for this reason, 16 yr old boys should not be hanging around 14 yr old girls (likely scenario).
And all this is just for the family that doesnt encourage teens to have platonic intergender relationships. Many don’t care, but Heshy is obviously writing about those who do care.
“well i did happen to vote republican this time because i think obama is all fluff, some rock star that a bunch of morons got into office because BET and MTV told them to”
I never knew you had a sense of humor, FrumGer! Good zinger.
FG thanks for the calm and measured response Frum Ger. my apologies if i was too fire and brimstone on your kosher jewish ass. good shabbat and sweet year to all. and btw i don’t see any reason for anyone who wasn’t brought up black hat yeshiva to ever be more than modern orthodox or a religious conservative.
all the power to those who chose black hat or a hassidic path but fundementalism and religious fervor coupled with all the chumras and rules is a path that isn’t needed to serve the creator and to do mitzvahs and do good in my humble opinion. ive seen to many kool aid drinkers ultra ortho’s and for every normal black hat baa’l teshuvah there are 100 ones who choose the lifestyle for the wrong reasons and don’t ever grow as humans just as religious zombies… i say if folks choose to embrace Judaism as a path the best places are not found in these 2 branches: 1) black hat orthodox or 2)reform, all other expressions are much more balanced and accessible on many levels. however i do know and have many ultra orthodox friends and reform as well. obama is the messiah compared to the evils of maccains buddies. however too bad the green party candidate couldn’t get in… ralph nader
EF – Yes. Unless you have a guest area that is separate from the family sleeping area. So a basement or guest house would be different.
No, no, no!!!!!!! I can guarantee you that having them sleep in a separate area (guest house or basement) is NOT THE SOLUTION, and in fact will increase the problem GREATLY. (please don’t ask me how I know this for a fact). The best solution is to have multiple bochurim over at the same time and have them sleep on mattresses in one of the “common” rooms (living room, etc) of the house, or in one of the bedrooms all together.
Further, I am a believer in sending teenage boys to yeshiva, partially for this reason, 16 yr old boys should not be hanging around 14 yr old girls (likely scenario).
Sending **some** kinds of boys away to Yeshiva is appropriate, but for others it is a huge mistake and causes all kinds of problems in the future (Heshy, for example, is a boy that was sent away to Yeshiva
. I lived in the dormitories at a yeshiva, and there were all sorts of “goings on” of various natures. Luckily I went home very often for shabbat and wasn’t damaged too much. Don’t fool yourself that it doesn’t occur in very yeshivish and Charedi places because it DOES (much of my family is Charedi and have often discussed this very issue, of Yeshiva hijinks, with me). The biggest issue of all with the Yeshivas is that the students receive far less supervision than a teenager (away from parents) requires!
A) The premise is nonsense. The separation of the sexes is just way too extreme already. It is not Judaism, it is brainwashing.
On the other hand
B) Who looks at girls? I like a table with handsome young (not too young) sons to admire.
Shabbat Shalom
AND BIBBIDY BOBBADY BOO.
Heshy man bottom line i love you man and this blog, i laugh soo much and i get pissed because sometimes in my opinion you go a little overboard… But i am glad this blog exist so that i can fight and argue… and laugh and be a jew, all those that don’t understand that, that is being jewish.
i want the friction i love it when someone gets mad at what i say. i love to respond. i love to agree as well, but that is what this blog is for. i cheer when its a funny post i complain when its something that pisses me off, etc you all that really get offended, Read Born to Kvetch it really is a good break down of the diametrics that is the Kvetching Yid.
i have noticed heshy
i kind of rant about this blog one way or the other- the way you rants about the situations in frum life
so i am like a mini blog inside of your blog. FrumGer Satire
what funny about that is- i am definatly not the only mini blogger here… and that is how you know this is a jewish BLOG… When people go on another persons blog and take it over and blog theirself
AND the author doesn’t get mad or even hint that its unordinary… that is Jewish.
Nu?
that the whole point Obama was the messiah to tooooo many people… Failed messiah now we see.
I am not a black hat yeshivish, i am not even chassidic.i mean i pull from them but i don’t really associate exclusivly with them. i study tanya and the Breslover stories, i love Shlomo Carlebach, but i am just a yid. i wear bekishe on shabbos and a black hat and a gartle, because that is jewish, and keeps my shabbes feeling special not because i am a chossid . i don’t have a long beard i don’t have peyos. i keep a short beard ,but i wear my yarm every where and am shomer- “everything i can be”…, i am a lot more balanced that you would think. i don’t care about the politics in those factions but i love their love for Torah and to live a pure life, i respect that. i care about Halachah, and rich Minhagot, thats all. i am my own jew, i drink no koolaid… but does not mean i don’t have profound respect for Rebbes, and rabbaim in general, they sit in Moshes Seat i should repect them. so should eveybody. but Gut Shebbes & shana tova to you…
This is the first time I have seen the blog. Where have you been all my life. Wow! Very, very funny, with so much Emes.
FrumGer….you need to get laid. You take both this site and yourself way too seriously. You are smart and make good points but are killing the fun for the rest of us. Chill out man.
Heshy, what can I say. You rock. Keep it up. And to all of your fans who comment, you not only give him chizuk but your humor adds to the whole package.
I was shocked and horrified when a “with it” frum therapist in Boro Park told me he would never have girls OR guys over on Shabbos, cuz he has young daughters and sons.
This obsession with “tznius for the preschoolers” has got to be one of the reasons we got so much pedophilia. Hamodia in Israel won’t allow photographs of female infants. ylu gotta laugh or else you cry.
Frum parent WTF is wrong with u – “s*x” !?!! Since when is sex a bad word !?!!
E. Fink says: Brothers and sisters can be a big problem… I am a believer in sending teenage boys to yeshiva, partially for this reason…
So then the teenage boys can be in an all-male all the time environment – and you know what happens there, don’t you? Ask any bochur, if he’ll tell the truth.
Mark-
Brothers and Sister incest? this happens? really? i never had a sister, and i am shocked. this is normal? i about knew about playing doctor with cousins or the girl down the road. but brother and sister? the first girl i ever kissed was my cousin when I was like 7 or 8… But siblings? the reason i am asking is because my wife is pregnant for the first time Baruch Hashem and I want to know all the different things they DON’T tell you about… i am at a loss for words over that one…. Bro’s and sisters? really? OY VEY
Avrumy- i have lived in MANY all male environments- never heard of such things except from guys that would have been that way anyway..
Seen the light- you don’t know jack—
i am a happily married Man- Heshy is the one that needs to get… as you put it…. i’ll just say the benifits of a Khallah
FrumGer: from Ner Israel to Yeshivat HaKotel…IT HAPPENS!
Not everyone, of course, but not only the “gay” ones. It happens a lot more than the rebbes or parents are aware of, especially Friday nights when the dorms are quiet and dark, and lots of staff are away for Shabbos. Fear not; there are few lasting effects. Just lots of secrecy (and guilt). Most guys go off to marry nice girls.
Avrumy,
Speak for yourself. I never saw or heard of anything like that in the yeshivas I attended.
Some guys might have been “faggy” looking, but they were either straight or too afraid to try anything “funny”.
Do frummies that know your preferences invite you for Shabbos if they have teenage boys?
i just don’t see how you can do that in a yeshiva and daven the next morning. and on shabbes i never heard of such things that happening… you have been watching too much Trembling before G-d… the only guy on guy stuff that ever happened in my dorm was spontaneous wrestling matches…
Phil asks a fair question. I don’t live in a very family-oriented community or a black hat community. Lots of older couples w/ married children and modern orthodox young marrieds (one of whom came on to me in the gym). Talk about awkward!
I am not officially “out” at shul and many just don’t know (or don’t care). There is one family that has invited us over the years, and they had unmarried sons and daughters – now all are married. For the most part, my Shabbos meals are with my (Jewish) partner of many years and/or other gay friends, or my family which always invites my BF as well.
FrumGer mentions “Spontaneous wrestling matches”?
Do you even hear what you are saying? Guys grappling with each other, copping a feel here and there, getting all worked up and then off to the showers to “relieve” themselves… Wrestling is homoerotic by nature.
Funny thing (well to me) is that so many of my gay friends, as well as myself, were not aware of the extent that guys were fooling around (and I don’t mean real “assur” sex, just some touching, comparing and tugging) in yeshiva, until years later. Seems the really gay ones were too afraid to let anyone know, so it was the “straight” guys that were having all the fun.
I’d worry that my daughter would be so impressed with you that she’d want to marry a younger man just like you.
People will do stupid things about sex. It doesn’t matter what religion they belong to or how much theology they’ve studied. The magic 10% says a lot – about 10% of all children born in wedlock could not have been sired by the mother’s husband. Worldwide. Since the first time it was studied more than 50 years ago.
When sex is taboo and ignorance and silence are the rule there’s no potential for correction. Mistakes get added to, not fixed. People, especially men, who grow up in single-sex environments have unrealistic expectations about the opposite sex and generally have lousy social skills when they interact with them.
Since we’re being honest here, it also leads to facultative homosexual behavior. In other words, horny youngsters who don’t have normal social interaction with the opposite sex make do with what they can find. Each other. “Worse things happen at sea”. “If you’re in jail, don’t drop the soap.” “Wrestling holds: The Half-Nelson, the Full-Nelson and the Father Nelson.”
And so on. And so forth. And don’t say “It’s assur! It’s against Torah!” It still happens.
Brothers and sisters can be a real problem
Yes, incest happens. It’s not many people’s first choice. But it’s guaranteed to happen more when everything his weighed down with ridiculous and ever-stricter taboos, when normal human social development is forbidden and there is complete separation of the sexes.
It’s no accident that there’s been a huge upsurge in cases of documented abuse in the the Charedi community. The tradition of silence and denial moves in two easy steps to a defensive obligation to deny all wrong-doing, punish the victim, protect the offender and refuse to address the underlying problems. It’s absolutely classic and can be seen with monotonous regularity among similar self-isolated groups from the Amish and the Mormons to the Catholic priesthood, the Wahabites, the Talibanis and even cops.
In other words, this perversion of human nature leads to increased rates of incest, homosexual behavior in otherwise-heterosexual adolescents and uncorrected rape and child abuse.
Face reality like a grownup or suffer the consequences.
The Frum obsession with Tznius, with keeping boys and girls separate, extends much further than that.
My family wants me to come visit them in New York, because they haven’t seen me since my sister’s Chasuna and ostensibly miss me.
I can’t come for a visit, however, because they don’t have anywhere for me to stay.
Yes, there are spare bedrooms in my mother’s house; and yes, my oldest sister has a spare bedroom in her condo.
So nuuu, what’s the problem?
Oh, right. If I come to Jew York for a visit, my wife comes with me.
Did I neglect to mention that I’m married?
Yes. My WIFE… Not my girlfriend… not some bum chick… not a shiksa maidel… My WIFE! My family doesn’t want me and my wife to sleep in the same bed, or even the same house.
This was a major hassle last summer, when we were in town for my sister’s wedding; it entailed all kinds of sneaking around just to be able to cuddle together – but I could sort of understand it, because she was only my girlfriend at the time… Even though it made me feel like I was a 17-year-old Fryak Yeshiva Bochur again, I could (kind of) see where they were coming from.
Do they think we don’t have sex? Do they think that keeping us apart from each other is going to stop us from having sex? Do they think I miss them enough to play by their rules when I come for a visit? Do they not realize that I stopped being frum when I left New York nine years ago? Do they not realize that, outside of their little ghetto, it is normal and accepted, even expected, for a married couple to share the same bed?
And yes, it’s THAT Sholom.
These frummy families fear me. When I was a teenager, do you know how many girls I played with under the table!?
Oh wow… that’s just lovely Erick.
Great article!
what i find intrging is how many frummies read your blog. i think there may be more frummies than regular folks. its like they are all in the closet. as soon as you have a good post like this one they all come out of the woodwork..great post hesh..!!!
What I don’t get is this:
How do you know it’s safer to have MARRIED guys over?
Sure, they’re probably not as desperate. But it’s still something to consider.
frumger
i agree, u need to get laid
E Fink writes:
Brothers and sisters can be a big problem. I have seen it happen in more than one instance. But, you have a responsibility as a parent to raise your kids, you are not responsible to have anonymous company. Further, I am a believer in sending teenage boys to yeshiva, partially for this reason, 16 yr old boys should not be hanging around 14 yr old girls (likely scenario).
And all this is just for the family that doesnt encourage teens to have platonic intergender relationships. Many don’t care, but Heshy is obviously writing about those who do care.
I had to sit down after reading this. Then I had to read it over. Slowly. Twice. Then I said something along the lines of “JESUS FRICKIN’ CHRIST ON A DAMNED POGO STICK! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!”
In the real world – the one outside Saudi harems, Charedi ghettos and backwater Afghani or Appalachian mountain villages where they have to cart in daylight by donkey train once a month – this is considered completely disgusting and utterly aberrant. It’s the sort of thing which gets police and social services involved big time. It’s not just assur. It’s beyond the flipping pale and generally a sign of a completely disfunctional family.
One of the reasons it gets so much attention when it comes to light is that in normal societies it’s very g-dammed rare. It’s very rare because young men and women have an opportunity to meet and socialize with one another. They may make stupid choices, and they say that an eager young bride can do in seven months what a cow or a countess takes nine. What they don’t do is screw their sisters so often that “we all know it happens”.
This isn’t a sign that something’s wrong. It’s proof positive that the psycho-sexual development of the young people in your community has gone desperately off course. There are no normal outlets, so people take what they can get – the abnormal unhealthy ones. A sane, rational response would be to figure out what you’re doing wrong and fix it. An insanely neurotic one would be to double-down and multiply the stupidity that got you there in the first place. That, my friend, is exactly what your sort is doing. You’re raising kids with no chance at normal human development in unnatural conditions with chiroptera dung restrictions whose only purpose is to make you as different as possible from the marginally sane mass of humanity.
It’s gotten to the point where you’re so frightened of boys and girls being boys and girls that you’ve gotten to that crazy place. You know. Everything that isn’t compulsory is forbidden. Every normal impulse (let alone act) is a source of fear and sin. If everything a kid might do or think is equally terrible they won’t distinguish between normal, not-so-good and abominations. Adding extra prohibitions won’t fix that. It will just make it worse.
And G-d help them when they get married. They won’t know anything about how to behave around the opposite sex. They won’t know anything about their spouses beyond the hyper-ritualized job interview and a quick nasal scan of the HLA profile.
This insanity you call “A light unto the nations”? Only if you want us to serve as a terrible example.
I’d also bet a month’s pay that there’s more homosexual behavior in the segregated schools than there is in mixed-sex environments. It’s just about inevitable. The normal adolescent homosexual crushes get multiplied by close-quarters living and the complete lack of social interaction with the opposite sex. The results are absolutely non-negotiable. It WILL happen.
Don’t give me any B.S. about how Torah study prevents this or Jews are different than other human beings. It happens in the most rigid settings like Catholic monasteries, Navy submarines and Talibani madrassas. Put bunches of men or women together without normal human contact or opportunities to socialize with members of the opposite sex. A lot of them will use each other for sexual outlet even if they’d prefer otherwise.
So what do we see?
The frumster lifestyle encourages abnormal psychological and sexual development. It leads to an increased rate of incest. It causes homosexual behavior among heterosexuals as surely as night follows day.
And this is something sacred which makes people happy?
Atheism, Wicca and Voodoo start sounding a lot more attractive.
Ezra, that is precisely correct. More than getting laid, Frum Ger and some of the others need to get out more and see how men and women interact in the real world. Learn a little bit about infatuation, crushes, attraction, affection, love, lust, friendship, companionship, communication, making a woman happy, falling in love, falling out of love and how all of these are different.
Just getting his shmekele wet won’t be enough.
Sholom writes:
>Yes. My WIFE… Not my girlfriend… not some bum chick…
>not a shiksa maidel… My WIFE! My family doesn’t want me
>and my wife to sleep in the same bed, or even the same house.
Are you serious? And is this common among the frum?
If it’s just your family, it’s just your family. Every family has its quirks.
My parents didn’t let us sleep together in their house before we were married. Once we were they automatically put us in the same room.
I’ve heard secondhand reports of Orthodox women asking their mothers in law directions to the local mikvah, so it can’t be universal.
My wife and I are Jewish. I was raised in the Chabad system, in Crown Heights. She was raised in the Mid-Western city where we currently live, and was “affiliated with” Chabad during her teenage years.
Neither of us affiliate with Chabad and/or Orthodox Judaism at present. We’re very involved with the Hillel at the University that we’re attending, and our Judaic practice is something to the effect of renewal/reconstructionist.
We’re legally married, but have not yet gotten around to doing a chupa vekidushin; mostly because my family expects us to have a fancy and expensive Brooklyn-style affair, and we feel nauseated by the very idea of spending more than $2k on a wedding.
Particularly since we’ve already gotten married twice; once in front of the judge, and once in the park with a secular bit of hocus-pocus, followed by a cold lunch at our apartment.
So get a couple kosher witnesses, print out a ketubah, find a ring, stitch some remnants together or tie the corners of a friend’s tallis to four poles, buy a couple cheap glasses and say the words. We’ll assume after all that time you’ve already had intercourse. Steal a couple dozen horses to give to her father. Oops. Sorry. That’s more an Apache thing
The caterer, flowers, photographer, bridesmaids, M.O.B. hysterics, wedding consultant, trip to the Poconos or Niagara Falls, and the expensive hotel ballroom aren’t actually in the Torah.
Sholom,
If you do it at all like your family wants it you will drop at least five bills on her DRESS alone.
We rented an Irish pub that had recently moved from our neighborhood to another location.
No caterer, we talked to a couple restaurants and picked the food up that morning.
No flowers. We hadn’t realized the date was the weekend of Valentine’s Day. Short of a nighttime raid on the Rose Test Gardens there wasn’t a flower to be had in the city. We made wreaths out of leaves and vines for each table and a few for the (homemade) chupa.
No band, but the afternoon act was an Irish group – Peter Yeates http://www.modhran.com/yeates.html – who was sentimental enough to do a few numbers for the young couple.
No DRESS. My Beloved wore a black dress with Calla Lilies painted on it that had belonged to her grandmother. I wore a business suit.
No wedding cake. But we did get a bunch of cakes from a local bakery.
No photographer. A guest/friend who is good with a camera took a few pictures.
Sixty guests. Everyone had enough to eat.
Total cost a couple grand for everything which was awfully cheap. And do you know what? It was a lot nicer than my sisters’ Traditional take – a – huge – chunk – from – Daddy’s – retirement – savings blowout. Years later a couple guests have pointed it out to their kids as a way to have a great wedding without spending a lot of money.
It would work L’halacha, but that’s not the point. I know that we could do it on the cheap, and that’s exactly what I plan on doing whenever we get around to it. Simple food, friend to do photography, friend to DJ, cheap/free location…
Her mother (Halachically Jewish, practicing Christian) was satisfied with the hokey-pokey in the park, her father couldn’t give much of a fuck either way.
The problem is my family. All seven of my married siblings (my two younger brothers are the only ones who are still single, and they’re also “off the derech”) have had the whole shebang-sheboodle, and my mother expects the same from me.
My family would be very upset if we had a kosher marriage and they didn’t attend; which means it would have to take place in Brooklyn, which is no longer my city of residence. Plus, we’ve already kinda promised them that we’d do the whole bullshit with the bedeken and the chupa and the separate dancing and the family pictures, and that we’d let them pay for it; in exchange for their promise that it will happen when WE are ready to do it, and that WE would make the final decisions as to all the details.
So until then, the only way they’ll get to see me is if we rent a motel room, or if we stay by a non-frum/non-Jewish friend while we’re in town.
However, as one who has seen the velt from inside and out, I completely agree with your comment that some of these people need to get out and see how men and women interact in the real world. More than that, they need to make these observations without their pritzus-znus tinted glasses.
Its very reminiscent to the good old days when I was back in seminary. I made arrangements to eat by a teacher for shabbos and she canceled me out because her son was going to be home for that shabbos. Girls face the same problem too not being able to stay in a household with teen aged yeshivah bochurim that are several years younger than they are. I’m old enough to pass as their older sister for the most part. Not that I have a particular interest in them anyways and I’m sure they would share the exact same sentiments.
Heh doncha know that all males ARE perverts?
A Nuran,
It’s really not as bad as you make it out to be. I very highly doubt anyone turned gay because they were in a boys only yeshiva. some guys were simply interested in learning, others were more in sports, and others snuck out to meet girls. Many jacked off too, just as would be expected of other boys that age.
As far as the segregation of boys and girls before marriage, though I’m against it to some extent, I know it’s value. We survived for over 3000 years, still managed to have plenty of happy marriages thoughout the ages, and maintain a lower divorce rate, even though divorce is allowed according to Torah law.
Don’t paint us all into the same picture as the few pervs in the yeshiva / madrassa / catholic schoolboys horror stories.
Phil, it doesn’t “turn” people gay. What you get is facultative homosexuality. In other words, heterosexual kids experiment with members of the same sex because that’s all that’s around. They go on to heterosexual lives afterwards.
The point is, if you do this (stupid, unnatural, perverted) total separation of young men and women the hormones will find an outlet. And a lot of the time it will be ugly. No matter how many pages of Gemara or Gommorrah you study it will happen.
Wow, my computer dies, I miss so much goings on here! Once again, reading the post and comments adds so much to my education…
Phil,
“Moshe Rabbeinu married the priests daughter after being invited over to break bread” but who was it who remembered to circumcise their son?
Chris,
Make no mistake, she converted properly before he married her. The reason he didn’t circumsize his son was that travelling in those days was considered dangerous enough to push off the circumsision for a later date.
Ezra and A.nuran
Baruch hashem i have come out of my goyeshe yetzerhora driven life in some small degree. frisly i went to public school till i was 16, and was in coed school till i graduated, and went to college. I didn’t convert untill i was a teenager and wasn’t frum untill my early 20’s… forget it. i have been around enough goyisher life styles and have had my fill of un righteousness. i choose life now, and that is whati stand for.. you don’t like it fine zi gezundt and shana tovah , but i am a married man , and have no problem with my sexuality, it’s perversion and immature untnuis attitudes that i have a problem with. tha won’t change. don’t let my statments that buck the sex laden goyishe society that is todays culture, be mistaken for me being wound up too tight. i reject this culture i reject the way it is protrayed out there so normal like its ok, it’s not, you want to live and think like a heathen ( if you do) fine but doesn’t mean i have to. i have a standard for my life, and i choose to stick by it. i fail- i miss it- i fall but i also believe in righteousness, an a righteous man gets back up 7 times…
And, right there is part of the problem with frum married Jews and sex…
frumsatire – crap
I am really shocked by this extreme separation of the sexes. It really boggles the mind to see how little trust these people have in their own children and in their own guests. Why educate when you can segregate?!
The Charedi people I know will have two separate tables for dinner – and I used to think that was rough – maybe they’re actually progressive Charedim!
Heshy, I will give you some free advice.
1. Don’t discourage very frum readers. Let me tell you a mashe shehuyuh. As a young comedy writer Woody Allen worked for Ralph Ginzberg (yes the onje who went to the supreme court on pornography issue for publishing Ervos, I mean Eros) magazine. One day he was opening the mail and there was a horrible antisemitic letter, quoting the bible over and over and saying Ginzberg would go to hell. Woody, did not want to hurt Ginzberg’s feelings and he threw it in the garbage. Ginzberg came out from his desk, pulled it out the garbage, and said don’t do that again. we file these. When we accumulate a thousand we sell them bibles by mail order.”
You mention cholent. Like cholent, these things start with a flash of heat and with time they can turn into some pretty intense stuff.
Seriously, of course this was never the minhag. But nowadays they know they have a problem. Since they won’t deal with the real problem, they have to come up with sill protective devices. But as writers of satire, we should be grateful.
“
Oh, it also works the other way round.
I was once thrown out from an elderly couple I used to help every shabbes because the Einikel came for Pessach.
Mind you, I was 32 and he was about 16, and his parents feared I would rape him between courses…