Sent by email
After davening by rote for so many years it becomes a super fast automatic thing, and there are some phrases that are similar enough that you can be shunted to the wrong one. There is one area between borchu and shma in the morning that repeats like this and I’ve not once caught myself jumping back to the first point and looping. Makes you wonder what it’s all about, mate. I’ve confirmed this shma junction with another speed davener. It’s not just me, man.
By the way, what is this davening thing? You’re the best, man. You’re terrific. Remember Egypt? That was the best. You really saved our ass there! We were some sorry faced losers. Slaving and shit. But, there you were with the plagues and whatnot. And I’m not going to forget it, nosiree.
I know we screw around, we’re not worth it. But you chose us, and when the shit hits the fan, there you are (well, not always, but often). You really know how to hand it to those weasels. Oh, and did I mention that I think your the strongest best god there is? Those other gods suck. Forget about it. Don’t even go there. Anyway, I used to be religious.
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{ 28 comments… read them below or add one }
I feel ur pain cuz lots of us have these issues. However our education and paren
ting may have focused on the negativities. These thoughts are all a deception.
speed davening is disgusting
D- Right on.. good response that is excatly it.
guy that wrote this and everyone else:
our society has taught us to be so cynical about everything. I too, tend to think that way unfortunatly… but Hashem has a plan that we cannot fathom. And more specifically the whole “Mitzrahim was soo long ago, why am i a 2009 jew still saying this same thing”. the answer is simple that Hashem said in his Torah many times not to forget that we were slaves, that is why daily we remind ourselves and thank G-d for that. imagine if we were not set free, what the world would be like… we should thank G-d that we were. i hate to see this happen to jews , getting burned out.. but the secret is you can’t read the Torah, Gomorah , Siddur, Shulchan Aruch, Midrashim , Mishneh etc or understand the our minhag like a goy. it put a barrier there that cannot be crossed. look past the pages look into the spirit of it all. leigning Tefillin looks to the Goy as weird or different, but it is literally tieing together thousands of years and millions of jews through out history. i like to think that yids a couple thousand years ago were wrapping tefillin and praying the Amidah like me. I think that is awesome. if you look at our traditions and mitzvot like that- then it becomes exciting. it draws the fire out of you. that helps alot.
@ Chani Shwartzstein
Based on my observation of your most recent posting on various topics Sir Satire of Frum discusses, you seem to always dismiss his perspective of the incidents/event he shares with the people who read his material.
Is this supposed to be an act of ahavas yisroel? or is this just a way to get back at someone who thinks that the tanaeim were right when they said in pirkei avos “derech eretz kadma la torah”?
I think you should do like Rabbi Yisroel Salanter said and try to find good in everyone you come into contact with.
> imagine if we were not set free, what the world would be like…
Probably very much like it is now, except possibly that the Roman pantheon and Zoroastranism would be the popular religions instrad of Chrisitianity and Islam.
That statement is probably the most uneducated thing i have heard ever. if israel had never been freed the world would not be Just like it is now. everyone knows that if one small decision in history produces massive results, then to think that this world would be pretty much the same is absurd. whos to say Zoroastranism would be or Roman Pantheon, what if Egypt remained a world Power, Egypt was before Bebylon and Rome. See how monotheistic faiths have influenced the western world the economy and political structure of things. who knows if we would have any cars or electronics, who knows?/ think about all the yids on the manhattan project. no hiroshima means no cold war means no mcarthyism means no “reds” means no berlin wall means no “80′s”.. think about about a million instances in history that yids have directly occured. Pretty much the same? no way bro. no way. watch back to the future or something… biff stole the almanac and it changed the world. same story except it would have 3500 years to skew the timeline farther. “pretty much the same”, ha very funny.. No way.
so baal hagolel you’re defending his ignorance
Hey hey, this was a post received in email – I perefr to call myself the unlearned in talmudic discussions. Try and shlug up my geographical skills why don’t you?
Heshy, If you post such a email without adding your own comment or perspective, It seems like you’re endorsing that viewpoint. If your intention was to provoke thought, you should have made that clear.
> That statement is probably the most uneducated thing i have heard ever. if israel had never been freed the world would not be Just like it is now.
All right, I made a trite statement with too few qualifiers.
Yes, monotheism had influenced the world. History would have played out differently without it. But Jews, while influential for their numbers (due mostly to sociological factors) are not the lynchpin on which the world turns. The Chinese developed a sophisticated society without ever meeting a Jew (a society which, incidentally, was destroyed by fundamentalism) and the Romans had built a great empire long before they decided to conquer Judea. The Jews had little real influence in the ancient world.
> everyone knows that if one small decision in history produces massive results,
Depends on the decision. For example, Goering’s decision to discontinue bombing RAF airfields and to instead bomb cities in an attempt to crush the will of the British people had an enormous impact on history. What you decided to have for breakfast this morning, not so much.
> what if Egypt remained a world Power, Egypt was before Bebylon and Rome
I would guess that Roman and not Egyptian gods would more likely to still be worshiped today simply because Egypt was, at the height of the Empire, a province of Rome. And, as I said before, the existence of monotheistic Jews had nothing to do with the development of the Roman Empire.
> who knows if we would have any cars or electronics, who knows?/ think about all the yids on the manhattan project.
Most technological innovations were not thought up by Jews. Had the Manhattan Project not produced the atomic bomb, someone else would have. The Germans were already working on it.
Anyway, my statement was more about your seeming implicit assumption that if not for the Jews the world would be very different in a bad way. It wasn’t an attempt to seriously speculate about an alternative history in which the Judaism had never arisen.
But you chose us, and when the shit hits the fan, there you are (well, not always, but often).
well actually you are wrong there because Hashem is always there for us, but sometimes the answer is no, and sometimes things are supposed to be hard for us because let’s face it we definitely don’t know what’s best for us 99% of the time.
> well actually you are wrong there because Hashem is always there for us, but sometimes the answer is no,
If you could prevent a murder yet you stand by and do nothing, what does that make you? After all, when the vicitim asked for help, all you did was say, “No.”
We aren’t thanking God for the world turning out like it did, and we definitely aren’t thanking God numerous times in davening for Christianity and Islam.
We are thankful for the way we turned out, if we had not been freed from Egypt we would probably still be an insignificant and second class people, and not nearly as influential as we have been through out history.
But most importantly we are thankful for the spiritual freedom, where would we be without Judaism? we would still be enslaved to our corporeal selves and completely disconnected from God. In comparison any physical benefits we got from leaving Egypt are completely insignificant.
It seems almost insane be thanking God for taking us out of physical slavery, it was 3000 years ago and we probably wouldn’t “still be in slavery today” like we say in the Haggada. But we can never thank God enough for freeing our souls and giving us the Torah, the pure and eternal truth without which life would be empty and pointless.
Anyway that’s how I understand the whole coming out of Egypt thing and why it’s such a big deal, but I’d love to hear what you guys think about it.
G*3… i’m not really getting your point, but i’ll try to address it a couple ways.
first, humans have a lot of problems, and murder is one of the most disgusting. if a person can prevent it and they don’t that is also disgusting. but Hashem can’t just force a person not to commit murder because He Himself gave us this freewill, and He expects us to in turn use it for good. But if He took it from us then we would be robots with no purpose.
Another thing is, I was talking about when people daven and really pray for something with all their hearts, and yet sometimes the answer seems to be no. it can be on a broad range of topics obviously, but really we don’t know if it is someones time to die or whatnot, we just have to realize that we have no way of seeing what will be and how everything will effect the world. So yes, sometimes the answer has to be no!
K, I hope I cleared up whatever issues you had with my post well for you.
oy vey, I understand your reasoning. Its standard hashkfa. I’m touched though that you’re trying to educate me!
Anyway, there are a number of problems with this line of thinking. To list just a few:
1) You are claiming different standards of morality for humans and for God. If a human allows another person to be murdered, he is an accomplice in an evil act. If God allows it, its okay.
2) You assume that an omnipotent, omniscient God can’t find a way to prevent evil without compromising our free will (assuming that we have free will, but that’s a whole different discussion.
3) Assuming that God, as the Creator of the world, is responsible for everything in it, that means that He created death. If so, every death, including “natural” ones, are His fault. Unfortunately people have a tendency to attribute “good” things to God and “bad” things to ‘that’s just the way things are.’
yeah right now it is different standards, but you are right, we all have it in us to try to do the right thing all the time. and Hashem is not permitting murders to happen, but they happen because of the evil that is completely against Him. please think back to when you have inadvertently done a wrong to someone, Hashem did not prevent it, but you could have with your free will. I am not saying you a sinner or whatever, but we all make mistakes, we aren’t perfect yet, you know? and I know that Hashem could do something to intervene, but if someone has in mind to defecate the name of Hashem by something as horrendous as murder, they are rarely in a state of mind and spiritual awareness to respond from a sign from Hashem. It’s not like Hashem isn’t trying to open up these peoples hearts to see that it is not the way, but they might have strayed so far from him already that it’s not happening for them. And as for your lack of faith in the whole free will thing I am pretty confused, of course we have free will, if not why would there be so many people not doing the will of Hashem?! It’s a choice, albeit one with many horrible consequences for yourself and others.
And death is natural, it is the way the world is at this point and I see your point that it is all from Hashem, but saying it is His fault is saying that there is something horrible about G-d willing going to a beautiful Heaven.
And I do attribute good things to Hashem, and I also recognize that what I perceive as bad for me(inconveniences and things that are challenges for me) trust me I have had my fair(or not so fair) share, are also from Hashem because from the most part I have found myself growing stronger from them. And I also have to admit that some bad things are not from Hashem at all, and they are the way things very sadly are, but definitely do not have to be. People do not have to speak loshon hara, murder, disrespect their parents, hurt one another on a minute by minute basis, but we still do and that is NOT at all because of Hashem , it is because of us falling into the trap of the yatzar hara, and we can’ t blame Hashem for our mistakes.
k I’m trying not to make this a rant but this is really long and I apologize.
> k I’m trying not to make this a rant but this is really long and I apologize.
Not at all. No need to apologize for defending your point of view.
No offense, but I get the impression that theology is not a really an interest of yours.
> yeah right now it is different standards, but you are right, we all have it in us to try to do the right thing all the time.
I don’t think you got the point. The point is that we should hold all sentient beings to the same standards of morality. Thus something that is immoral for a human is equally immoral for God.
> Hashem is not permitting murders to happen,
Assuming a traditional view of God as omnipotent, of course He is “permitting murders to happen.” A Being Who can do anything certainly has it within His power to stop a murder from happening.
> but they happen because of the evil that is completely against Him.
That God frowns upon murder (and only in very specific circumstances, min hatorah) is not enough. Suppose you could stop a murder from happening, but instead just tell the murderer, “You really shouldn’t do that.” Is that enough?
You also seem to imply here that “evil” has some sort of power to act against God, but I could just be reading too much into awkward phrasing.
> as for your lack of faith in the whole free will thing I am pretty confused, of course we have free will, if not why would there be so many people not doing the will of Hashem?!
You are assuming that no free will = acting in strict compliance with Hashem’s will. It’s a lot more complicated than that. For one thing, would you say that a ball rolling down a hill has free will to go right or left? Or is its path predetermined by such things as the direction of the force which started it moving, the irregularities in the surface on which it is traveling, etc.? Everything in the universe, including humans, are subject to forces which determine what they will do. That we are self-aware does not necessarily free us from these forces. People are terrible at knowing why they do what they do, and typically will give post-hoc explanations if asked. It is entirely possible that, if you could know all of the factors involved, you could predict exactly what you will do at every moment in your life. Thus free will may very well be an illusion.
> And death is natural
Lots of things are natural. Typhus. Smallpox. Malaria. Psychoses. Nightshade. Poison ivy. I could go on.
> but saying it is His fault is saying that there is something horrible about G-d willing going to a beautiful Heaven.
You are 1) assuming that you are going to a beautiful heaven (not a mainstream Jewish belief until near the end of the Bayis Sheini period) and 2) saying that death is just a step towards Heaven, so isn’t a bad thing. If so, what has the murderer done wrong in killing? He’s just sending his victim to Heaven.
But lets say for the sake of argument that you are going to Heaven, that this is a good thing, and that it justifies God killing you (by allowing someone to murder you or from natural causes). You have managed to remove the stigma from killing, but every death is still God’s fault.
> I also recognize that what I perceive as bad for me… are also from Hashem because from the most part I have found myself growing stronger from them.
Of what utility is “growing stronger?” To help you deal with future difficulties? Having chicken pox will make you “stronger” by making you immune to chicken pox in the future. Personally, I’d rather just never have chicken pox at all.
> it is because of us falling into the trap of the yatzar hara, and we can’ t blame Hashem for our mistakes.
Who created us with a yetzer hara?
And you thought your post was long.
lol yeah your post is quite a bit longer, no worries though.
k when you say i’m not so interested in theology(and i’m not taking offense, i just want to understand what you meant) are you saying likw just in the way G-d interacts with us and His dfferent roles?
Thus something that is immoral for a human is equally immoral for God.
- I’m sorry, we’ve argued the point already, so I’ll keep it short, but I just do not agree with you. Besides the fact the G-d told us that it is immoral to act in certain ways, so He openly acknowledges it, we also have to remember that G-d is way above us and we can’t always(usually) understand Him. So in short what G-d does is good, an I really do believe that, even when we perceive it not to be. You can fight me on the point that we lower our standards of good for G-d or whatever, but I really truly believe that everything from Hashem has its reason for the ultimate good. You can give me a million reasons against my belief, and I can think of some really potent ones that I’m sure you can think of too, but I still believe that for some reason it had to happen for a good.
Ok so on the evil as a separate power thing, I concede it is not, and it was probably my poor wording that made it sound thus. But what I was saying is that true Hashem created the evil, but not to hurt the world, just to force us to overcome it. When someone murders it is not in the will of Hashem, it is their choice though. SO saying that Hashem can just step in and take the hate from the murderer is just not going to happen by itself, because Hashem gave us a free will to fight evil forces. ok that might be bad wording too…I’m trying to say that Hashem definitely can intercede, but for the most part He can’t because He has already chosen to give us free will. I’m not saying that He cannot just take it from us and force in one way or another for the murder not to happen, I’m just saying He chooses not to for are sake.
Which takes me to growing stronger through overcoming the yatzar hara. I guess I can give a personal example to explain what I mean.
I am a BT so I’ve had to realize that a lot of the things I was doing definitely wasn’t the will of Hashem, and I had to start living a different life.
So take for example, when I become shomer Shabbat. It was very hard for me, and I had to do it step by step as to not overload myself. But I prayed to Hashem to help me, and slowly I overcame different things, like using the computer, driving, etc. But when it came to my not driving on Shabbos my family was in an uproar, how could I be such a horrible, self centered person as to not come to my cousins birthday party on a saturday?! The regular response I guess because some of my family thought my faith was an attack on their lack of faith, so the natural question the liked to throw at me was who the heck do you think you are!?
It was difficult for me, and unless you have been in the situation and you come from a very family oriented family, you wouldn’t understand how shattering it is for your family to blatantly tell you we don’t stand behind you and you are going to lose us(my aunt actually called me to tell me I will lose all my family, very not pleasant)
But through this all I prayed to Hashem to help me and to open the hearts of my family and to keep me on track, and He did. And through having to defend my faith and overcome struggles with myself and my family I grew much stronger in my convictions and I now feel I have a stronger relationship with Hashem.
Now with my new stronger connection if, Chas Veshalom, me or someone I am close to undergo difficulties, physical or emotional, I will be stronger with Hashem and I will not turn my back on Him saying He must not be there in my life, He must hate me, or any other crazy thought like that. I personally would also not want to go through such things, and I cannot say that while my aunt was telling me that everyone hated me and that I was worthless to the family and such I did not want to feel so betrayed and hurt, but through such a hurtful experience I did learn a tremendous lesson. Without the lesson I would have never had any motivation to cry out to Hashem for help, I would have never cried in earnest for my family and for myself and for all of my fellow jews that are so off the path. But I did and I promise you that without going into details I saw giant changes in my life and in the lives of my whole family.
So yes, I believe Hashem is good, but how can I not when I have felt torn and broken and unloved, and the only One to hear me and hold me up was Hashem?
That’s why I wanted to defend my opinions so vehemently and why I just cannot accept that Hashem just sits by and lets bad things happen, because I know if someone would use their free will to intervene and actually pray with earnest many wonderful things can happen. It’s a great power, but back to another point sometimes the answer is no. But we do have free will, we really do. I see it everyday when I am choosing between good and bad, between speaking loshon hara about a classmate or not, when I choose not to scream at my mother out of frustration, but instead to respect her and stay calm, when I choose to wake up early and daven and feel the words as opposed to sleeping in those last precious 30 minutes, then I feel how strong my free will is, but I also know what I shouldn’t do. These are choices, so I am absolutely in no way saying doing Hashems will= no free will of our own, I am saying I use my own free will to choose good, that’s all).
I respect your opinions, I hear what you are saying, but I don’t agree because I have had experiences that have showed me otherwise. I hope I was clearer in this post, but again sorry if I wasn’t. When I feel so strongly about something I just pore my words out, and sometimes I can understand if it is a bit incoherent. Also, I am not trying to insult you or anything by fighting your points, I just want you to see that mine are valid points too.
bleh a lot of typos, sorry, I would go through and fix them because they really bug me, but it is too long. Sorry, just ignore them please.
Here’s my 2 cents.- G*3- what you said about history- i disagree. Jews have been more influential then you think. and if they stayed in egypt who knows what egypt could have accomplished. there are no sure things. but that doesn’t matter anyway stupid agruement, moving on–
on your current convo-
Hashem can Commit murder if He so choose, He is G-d he can do what He wants.
i don’t worship G-d because He is righteous or good or any human quality for He has none of those. i worship G-d because He is G-d and i am a man. G-d has not standards and to say that G-d is Good and hates bad is pretty adolecent thought.
G-d Created both Good and Evil, evil and good came from somewhere- they came from Above. I hate this i serve G-d because He is good, or Just. Working for a reward is Christianity! He is what He is! He allows these things to happen because it is in His plan to do so.
the angel of death works for Him not the other way around. Does G-d then orchastrate A childs murder- There is no other way to think of it. But that does not make G-d evil, because he has no Human Quantitive qualities- He just is.
The idea that G-d is good and we are bad and do things in only our free will, means that G-d is not omnipotent. G-d knows and does nothing because we control parts of our lifes on this planet, He gave man Dominion. But did He know Adom would do what he did? sure. We are what we are and do what we do. because He has a plan.
He out lines us to do things For His will, He says to a Human you cannot murder, we do anyways, did He let that person die, yes. because it is His will to do so.
His will is like a painting, as the brush strokes go on we might not understand the out come until the end, and wonder about all the dark colors in the painting. but when its over it makes sense.
Like a Rubiks Cube if you know how to do it you will know what i mean, you get to the last level then mess everything up to put the last algorythm in and it looks like all that progress is for not but then after- it all comes together.
My advice for everybody, stop trying to pin Morality on G-d He is not a man. Serve G-d for better or worse because He is G-d not because He is good. Is He good? Yes of course, but then define Good. Is He just- Sure but then define Just. G-d hardened Pharoahs heart G-d hardened Sauls Heart. This is fact G-d does what HE WANTS.
some people get tooo big for their shoes and start to think their feet are bigger then Hashem. Ya right. G-d is not a man, and just because you cannot understand the cosmos doesn’t mean a hill of beans, you are stupid G-d is smart.
people make me laugh with all this, i mean really – G*3 had something bad happen or read about something bad happening and decided either to blame G-d or deny His existence.
either way its like that petty girlfriend that got hurt by you-then after its over, theyre is soo jaded they just become this bitter man-hater lesbian that puts on 25 lbs because she eats her feelings. constantly vomiting out this- men are dogs I hate all men, propaganda everytime someone is around them. all they want to do is scream “Get the hell over it!…” But don’t because she is one step from sliting her wrists. then shoot down twenty years- you got a butched out Fat lesbo with a crew cut wearing Cargo pants, all because they just couldn’t move forward with life. And get over it.
G-d does what He wants when He wants it, you are not His judge, jury, or other, forget about it– you are His creation and He will do with you, me, your mother, my zaidy or anyone else as He pleases.
Special thanks to our our cast of characters:
G*3– the Almighty Judge of G-d
Oyvey— G-d’s Apparent Attorney.
Heshy Fried—- HaSatan
Parent From newyork —— Heshy Fried
FrumGer——— Not Heshy Fried
(Thanks G-d)
Phil—- Absent
Her views are to be accorded much deference as they are always accurate and well reasoned. I find her insights (and looks) pure gold! Rock on, Chani.
A secret admirer
listen creep i’m married back off
FrumGer, well said. and hahha you cracked me up with G-d’s apparent attorney..lol people tell me I should be an attorney all the time because I have a habit to defend people a lot. But it’s just not my thing because I only defend things honestly, but most attorneys do not.
Zvi Lampert: You are correct and next time I will give my two cents, but the discussion is too far in to do my thoughts any justice.
sorry for creating a insubordinately long discussion/ argument on your post..but yeah Heshy couldn’t you just add a little disclaimer next to sent by mail so people no you aren’t endorsing speed davening, just happen to want to hear what people are going to say about it.
oy vey, FrumGer, I made a mistake here, and I apologize. Faith wins every time.
And although I really shouldn’t I just have to reply to this little gem:
> G*3 had something bad happen or read about something bad happening and decided either to blame G-d or deny His existence.
Firstly, you yourself asserted that everything is orchestrated by God, both the good and the bad, so by definition He is to “blame” for everything that happens. Secondly, believe it or not, it is possible to come to conclusions about God that disagree with the party line without having a traumatic experience (either in person or vicariously).
Oh, and the comment about women becoming lesbians because of bad relationships is both disgusting and ridiculous.
Wtf
G*3 -
Of course i was just using that analogy for point purpose obviously it is ridiculous.. that was an extreme, but i think going OTD because G-d is seemingly “unfair” is equally disgusting and ridiculous..
of couse He is in charge, he is the conductor of this Show, but when i say “blame G-d” i mean it differently. i am saying blame G-d like someone pointing the finger at G-d and saying he killed this baby so i am going to curse Him because I am upset at what He does. Kind of like what hasaton tried to get Job to do… people that went through hashoah came out of it alive and started rebeling against G-d because what happened. The famous line ” we are the chosen people, choose someone else..” we have a right to be angry because of not understanding, but not to rebel from the derech. “Though He may slay me yet will I Trust Him” He has it under control. Thats all i am saying…
PS this statement
Secondly, believe it or not, it is possible to come to conclusions about God that disagree with the party line without having a traumatic experience (either in person or vicariously).
is absurd, because the decisions we make are all made because of experiences that happpen to us directly or through others. we are reactive. every action has a reaction- our subconsious is totally made up of things that happen to us. you don’t stop believing in G-d or His Torah with out having some kind of experience either suttle or overt that cause that radical change. all decisions made have a purpose and an reason behind them. what you are saying is that for no apparent reason you woke up and just decided to go otd. ya right… and any reason strong enough to change your core beliefs is traumatic- even if no one you know died, or got sick or hurt. you studied things and you read of someone elses story that was tragic, leaving you with the questions about it all… meaning somewhere somehow you core beliefs where shaken and it was caused by no small thing.