… for you. I don’t have this problem, for multiple reasons. I have no legitimate children and unless you people start showing up to my shows or getting me advertisers I’m sending my kids to public school.
But seriously folks, how on earth do poor frummies pay for their house in Flatbush, still pay for pizza at three bucks a slice, and buy products with a jacked up price due to three hechsherim that are probably less kosher then things with triangle K? But you have to keep up with the Cohens and get a shidduch for your daughter who’s still in nursery, and then after all of this drop down absurd amounts of money for a shitty education.
Fact is some may not even call yeshiva an education; I didn’t go to a very good school so I wouldn’t know, but to spend all that money on a school to teach your kid how to sit and learn out of a gemara all day seems pretty stupid. You may say that yeshiva guys go to college, but using your scam credits from night seder to get that degree from FDU or Touro could be done without mortgaging your house.
Then you have these girls’ yeshivas that charge an arm and a leg as well, and all they are preparing the girl for is marriage and a life of baby making and white cloth checking. Do these girls really need to go to school, get all that education just to prepare them for a career as a stenographer or a medical billing assistant?
The above cases are for the really yeshivish crowds, which complain the most or seem like they complain the most because I read the “readers write” section of the Yated every week. A quick look at the more serious blogs will tell you that everyone is complaining about the Yeshiva Tuition Crisis, which is probably causing the shidduch crisis, because picky parents don’t want their kids dating kids of broke ass parents (but the yeshiva tuition costs are breaking the bank so everyone’s broke)
Every year you read about how parents are “threatening” or “thinking” about sending all their kids to the local public school, therefore making their case for vouchers (another animal in itself) They never do anything but talk and discuss the issues, if they actually did pull out all the kids from their local b’nos bais Yaakov and ship them off to public school someone would notice, but the kids would never get a shidduch and the parents would have to avoid the kollel store like the plague.
For one thing I don’t understand why tuition costs so much money but being a Rabbi resigns you to a life of generic brand soda at your shabbos meals and forces you to drive around one of those old station wagons held together with bungee cords and put the brakes on loshon horah stickers? Shouldn’t Rabbis be driving around foreign cars with cd players in them? Shouldn’t yeshiva Rebbes have more then one weekday suit to wear?
Take a look at some of the yeshiva buildings, at least in Far Rockaway they aren’t too shabby, they have these huge complexes made of nice glass with smooth pothole-free parking lots in neighborhoods that exist because the rent is cheap. Then they have these fancy shmancy annual dinners honoring some random modern orthodox couple by the name of Sidney and Shirley Cohen who were solicited by phone to accept the “builders award” which really means they have to buy the emerald page in an ad journal. But still the yeshivas are broke, charge you an arm and a leg and the teachers never get paid on time – like kasharus, it seems like one big scam and since I have been asked multiple time to write about it I figured I would.
Do I have a solution? You can’t just pose a problem without a solution right? Well I don’t really have a good solution, I would send my kids to public school, but I am a progressive dude, and I’m dirt poor and don’t really see the value in yeshiva education. On the flipside I see that the nicest, brightest and most founded in Judaism kids I know were the frum kids whose parents decided to send them to public school. That probably has more to do with the parents, but still, public school is free and as Jews we need to embrace the free.
Furthermore, with the money saved on tuition you could probably have a one room cheder type situation, but just make sure to do a back round check, because one room cheders seem like a great place to molest children.
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{ 68 comments… read them below or add one }
Far too many administrators and staff! Facutly members are one thing…but how many secretaries and executives do schools need? Several principles, chairs of departments, heads of school, etc. Salaries and benefits add up quickly!
Schools did not always have so many administrators/executive staff members, and high quality education can still be provided without such a large administrative staff.
Quality of education should not be short-changed…for anything. Principles don’t need to make $400k+ a year. Go to guidestar.org to look up the schools’ form 990s to see salaries of some of the administrative staff.
B”H
Solution? Yeah. Move to Israel.
How many 1,000′s of dollars you’ll save on Day School education, too.
At the very least, send you boys to the Mir. They can find 120 dollar/month rent nearby, too.
Cheap.
tnspr569:
I should have mentioned that yeshivas tend to act as job mills, especially in small towns – what happens is that any beis medrish guy that gets married, the new wife is guaranteed a job in the yeshiva regardless of if they need someone or not – hence countless secretaries and useless employees.
Ben Yehuda – people could also just move out of large metro areas – in Albany the day school tuition is 5,000 a child which is nothing compared to NY.
Heshy:
Great post.
3 points I want to raise…
1 – you say you read the “readers write”, do you read the chinuch roundtable? Last week, my father suggested we bring the old school kehilla system back. Basically a 5% tax would be placed on the sale of kosher meat and the money would be pooled and divided amongst the yeshivos per capita. This is a great idea and there is no good reason not to do it. The relief would be tremendous for the schools.
2- The schools budget according to what they are promised from the parents. If a few parents fall behind, the school falls behind and then teachers / administrators / vendors don’t get paid on time and the school is forever trying to catch up – and it never happens.
3- I wrote about this point on my blog a little while back here http://bit.ly/eZu4T and here http://bit.ly/w1K8H. Our tzedaka priorities are screwed up. People would rather donate to “brand name” charities while their children’s educational institutions cannot pay their bills.
(Think about that when you and 50,000 others shell out $15 to watch a Tisha B’Av movie)
Heshy, you make some valid points, albeit some for shock value. I don’t know how my wife and I will afford yeshiva tuition once we have kids. Futhermore, the education we received wasn’t the greatest to begin with, so why pay all that money?
It’ll probably be cheaper for us all to move to neighborhoods where the public schools are top notch, supplement them with a Jewish school education in the evenings. Now this only works if we do this as a group. No one wants to take the first step so that’ll pose a problem.
I do like the idea that’s bring proposed in Englewood, NJ and in Brooklyn: Jewish / Hebrew culture charter schools. They’re public schools which only serve Kosher food, teach Hebrew, and have supplemental religious studies for those who want it after the secular studies end. This makes the most sense, and the additional religious studies only cost about $8k for the year, and the rest of tuition is free.
Beet option I’ve heard. Bar none.
The State of NJ just approved a Hebrew language charter school for East Brunswick which will supposedly, it will prepare students for the International Baccalaureate. Since it is being supported by taxpayers’ dollars, no religion may be taught, it s just to teach about Israel – yeah right. It was pushed by some cheapskate aggressive Israeli parents. Admission is by open lottery to all EB residents so I hope every fundamentalist Christian parent gets their kid in.
Meant to say best option. Not beet option. Damn iPhone.
Dani K – yes shock value but I am shocked I could even write about this – I just sat down and wrote a rant and it came out good. Been asked to write about this for ages.
Moving to Israel is an option I’m seeing people in my area starting to do. Not that our tuition s anywhere near what other North American cities pay, but the Lubavitch yeshiva here is totally bankrupt and has just cancelled the entire high to in order to “save money”.
In general, most yeshivas here charge under $5000 per child per year, additional discounts are available for lower income families with
multiple children.
Due to the closure, alternative shcooling is popping up all over, as most parents aren’t into sending their kids to other schools such as sephardic, misnagdim or other chassidic sects. Some are home schooling, others are group tutoring, most still paying under $5000.
As I mentioned, a few are leaving town. for Israel, apparently they have free public yeshiva in addition to the $25,000 – $40,000 bonuses you can get for making aliyah with a family.
I loved this, first because it’s funny and second because this is an issue that’s relevant to my work.
As the yeshiva tuition “crisis” looms large (not to mention that many of the conservative schools are losing kids by the dozens as well, thus closing facilities and cutting staff), we need to find NON Hebrew school ways to engage kids. Strong participation in informal Jewish education, whether it’s Jewish camping, youth groups, trips to israel, etc – are the second most reliable means in assuring that children assume a positive Jewish identity. Obviously, if you want a kid to be “frum,” there needs to be a lot of involvement on the parent side. After school cheder programs don’t work unless there’s a Torah atmosphere in the home.
Secondly, also a bit more opportunistically, there are programs like ours – the Jewish Student Union – which runs Jewish clubs in public schools across the country.
wow! just wow! clearly this post is coming from someone who has no idea about the subject and is not involved at all in the management of a yeshiva budget. I happened to have found you on facebook and i enjoy your posts. I myself am a very opinionated person who agrees with you on many things and finds humor in many others. Now dont get me wrong – the tuition is completely out of control. I have two girls in a bais yakkov and another one going next year so i know first hand the struggles of paying tuition. In addition the elementary school yeshiva i went to was, to put it lightly, a joke and an embarrassment to education (complete with the pages in my text book that deal with evolution being stapled together, not to mention child molestation and physical abuse). However, there are other things to consider. First of all – the yeshiva system has come a long way. There is a greater focus on education now then there used to be. Second of all you obviously have no concept of the budget that a yeshiva/beis yaakov has to keep up with. Any business man will tell you that the biggest expense in a business is payroll. A Yeshiva is no different. Plus the rent/mortgage that has to paid and the fact that all those people on payroll are entitled to make a living. I am involved somewhat in two different institutions and let me tell you these dinners are absolutely vital to the institutions that hold them. Let me finish by saying that something needs to be done about the rising tuitions. And if/when you figure out the budget of a yeshiva keep in mind that not everybody (and thats an understatement) is paying a full tuition (and some arent paying at all). Again – i am a big fan but this is an important issue and a very serious one for many people – and when writing a post like this – be careful because youre striking a nerve with people, like me, who struggle to pay their bills and their tuition. Finally – keep up the good work – the Jewish people need to laugh – and you do a very good job of that!
Heshy, wrong direction. Last time I checked, Albany was not the Eternal Homeland of the Jewish People.
All Jews must come now.
Dani K, sorry to hear about your displeasure with your iPhone. Puff, puff, life’s rough.
Feel free to send it my way. I could sell on the black market in Israel, and live off of it for a month.
This is something I really worry about. The choices are expensive schools with loust educations that teach the kids the bnei Yisroel crossed the yam suf in striemels (or black hats – though I’ve only seen pictures of the former) or REALLY expensive schools with good academics where getting less than an “A” is tragedy.
I’m always amazed at how many families of 6…7… 8 or so kids survive on only one income because mom wants to be “home with the kids”. Yet somehow they can afford late model Siennas and Suburbans, own homes, etc. Why do some mothers get to opt to stay at home at the expense of so many others — now I have to work not only to pay my kids’ tuition, but theirs’ too. And I’m still called to volunteer at school — these stay-at-home moms should be required to volunteer to offset the cost of their kids education, which they’re not paying.
This will only work if you live in an area with good public schools. In LA, they’re horrible and the system is bankrupt as well.
And day/yeshiva tuition is 10-15,000. High school is 20,000. They have to compete with the secular public schools that a lot of Jews go to.
This is also something I know a lot about from my work in the Jewish community-Steve is absolutely right. Another huge expense is insurance.
This is a touchy subject so tread lightly and read up on other communities, not only NY.
Steve – I know nothing about yeshiva tuition, I never paid it and don’t intend to for some time – but I just sat down and wrote this off the cuff and decided to start the discussion and enter some humor into it.
my kids go to public school and are all, B”H frum. In my very humble opinion, frumkeit comes from the HOME – and yes, it is wonderful when kids learn hebrew and can daven and read chumash, etc., but if PARENTS took the time to do the mitzva of V’sheenantam L’bonecha, the kids would get what they need. If kids see parents davening, they daven. If kids see parents who are tznius, they too will be tznius – EVEN in public school. And don’t tell me that slutty behavior, drugs, and everything that is in public school is NOT in the yeshivot too. Guess what guys, it IS! So let’s fund NCSY and send all the yeshiva kids to public school. And teach parents to REALLY parent kids the Torah way!
Heshy, you say in Albany you pay 5k a kid. When I was in HS in brooklyn I went to a fairly good chareidi school and my parents paid 5k. I also went to college without any scam credits.
Sounds like the Jews need to come up with a good homeschool program.
E Fink – 1 – you say you read the “readers write”, do you read the chinuch roundtable? Last week, my father suggested we bring the old school kehilla system back. Basically a 5% tax would be placed on the sale of kosher meat and the money would be pooled and divided amongst the yeshivos per capita. This is a great idea and there is no good reason not to do it. The relief would be tremendous for the schools.
* If you run the numbers, the relief is nowhere near “tremendous”. Though it is a good idea (however, before you know it, other organizations will be clamoring for a piece of the communal tax pie).
* The money, just as today, is still coming out of the community, thus no real relief overall.
My opinion, like any business (or other organization) in the world, the only way to achieve real relief is through cost cutting (and good bill collections).
We just heard yesterday that one of the day schools here in South Florida is closing its doors immediately due to lack of funding.
I also plan to send my kids to public school. I went to public school, and from 1 year at yeshiva in Israeli, I seem to know more than some guys with 13 years at really good day schools.
The real problem is that a big part of public high school is the extracurricular activities, nearly all of which meet on Saturdays. If there isn’t a large enough contingent of frum kids, your kid will feel left out. They would miss getting to participate fully or at all in theatre, newspaper, debate, math team, and sports, but you would need to find a way to improve their chances for college admission.
But K-8 there is no problem other than food and whether to let your kids go to classmates’ birthday parties on shabbat. The food situation isn’t even that bad because lots of kids have allergies and can’t eat the food served elsewhere either.
Hesh-
“I have no legitimate children”
So you have illegitimate children?
“I’m sending my kids to public school.”
When my family arrived in America, my folks initially considered sending me to a yeshiva, but the yeshiva thought that I wouldn’t fit in. My folks were offended, and chose public school instead.
My brother and I went to public school, from kindergarten to college. I gradually became observant, he remained secular. Public school is not for everyone.
I was fortunate that my hot female classmates found me unattractive, and my lack of athletic skills kept me off the sports teams. (except bowling in junior high school) The exclusionary cliques were a true nightmare. Instead, I painted and read books.
Like a typical Yid, books became my friends. I became observant and married a Yid. Most of my Jewish education came from my grandparents and local shul.
Sort of like how most American Jews were brought up a half century ago. Public schools on weekdays, and Jewish learning on weekends.
On the flip side, I met alumni of Jewish schools who went OTD. I found it ironic.
Nevertheless, I believe that a Jewish education must remain the priority, even if it means making aliyah, for the sake of affordable tuition.
great post! how very poignant it is. and I love the last line about child molestation- it always comes down to child molestation.
This might sound slightly harsh, but as some of the posters have mentioned, a large percentage of the students at yeshivot aren’t paying full tuition.
Perhaps one way of dealing with this issue would be to encourage people to try and obtain better-paying jobs. Now, don’t all jump at me saying that as it is people are being paid a lot and still can’t afford it, and those that aren’t paid a lot are doing the best they can.
Frankly, many people have the option of going to school for a profession that pays more but isn’t nearly as satisfying and they choose to instead go for a profession that they will enjoy.
You can’t have it both ways. If you want your kid to have a yeshiva education, then give up on doing something you enjoy. Suck it up. Do something with miserable hours and lead a somewhat miserable life, because, you know what, you gotta give up on something.
It bothers me to no end when I hear parents who have chosen to go the non-profit route, or who have chosen to do something “satisfying” and who then complain about costs and expect other people to flip the bill for them.
Heshy, I respect your decision to send your kid to public school because you don’t have the sufficient resources to send him to Yeshiva. But are you really serious about that? You are quite obviously a talented person who, with some more education and interest in working hard, can likely make enough money to send your kids to a decent yeshiva. If it is important to you, then suffer a little and get a job, or go back to school where you can increase your opportunities.
If, however, you choose to maintain a lifestyle that is more satifying to you — blogging and travelling — then take the responsibility of your decisions and don’t send your kids to yeshiva where others will have to subsidize your children’s education.
Make no mistake, I am certainly not decrying your lifestyle choice. I think it’s great that you are using your talents. But realize, you can’t have it — or shouldn’t be able to have it — both ways at the expense of others.
Sergey I was wondering who would spot my subtle humor in that – and your comment is hilarious.
Sergei – When my family arrived in America, my folks initially considered sending me to a yeshiva, but the yeshiva thought that I wouldn’t fit in. My folks were offended, and chose public school instead.
When my grandparents came to America, my dad was 12 years old. They immediately enrolled him at Torah Vo’Daas where everyone (including the Rebbeim!) made fun of his Hebrew (his proper Hebrew as he was born and grew up in Eretz Yisrael), made fun of his clothing, made fun of his blue-collar father, made fun of him being a Yekke, and generally made him miserable in as many ways as possible. He lasted there less than a month and then was switched to public school.
Sergey, kol hakavod for catching Heshy’s faux pas about children.
Yep. Gotta make aliyah.
Oh, one more thing. In my high school, a group of students (myself included) organized a Jewish Club.
It was similar to Chabad and Hillel in its mission to educate, eat kosher, and bring Jews together.
But the club was only as strong as its members. Most Jewish students in my schools were apathetic, and uninterested in attending club meetings.
Uh, working Dad – exactly who do you think is going to staff these days schools in crisis if we don’t have people to teach at them/administrate them; i.e. the people that have chosen to do something more “satisfying” with their life.
Working dad, I work in sales – you think clicking on google ads pays my bills? I have a nromal job just like the rest of you – I just sit at a desk all day and have access to my blog.
Brad,
I agree with your sentiment. And, in fact, almost every school I know of has a program where they provide free tuition, or at least cheaper tuition, to parents who work in chinuch. I look at that as part of their benefits. Which is why, although salaries for Rabbeim and yeshiva teachers are low, they actually make quite a bit more money than they say: For example, if a Rebbe in a yeshiva has 7 children (certainly not unheard of) and they are able to send all these kids to yeshiva for free, without paying taxes on that benefit, they are effectively making an additional $100,000 a year. Yes, that’s right, $100,000 a year. Remember, yeshiva tuition isn’t tax deductible. So, if they were working as a lawyer or doctor, they would be paying approximately $15,000 a year per child plus at least 35% in taxes on that income, which is equivalent to at least $20,000 a year per child.
Wait, I just realized, its much more than $100,000, it’s actually $140,000 per year. Wow. I thin I’m going to switch professions immediately.
Working Dad –
Your example works only for top level administrators, because regular staff and teachers certainly don’t recieve those benefits.
Additionally, your framing of this conversation certainly implies that you look down on educators. As a parent as well as someone who works in the Jewish community, I can tell you perhaps one of the largest reasons some of these institutions fail is because parents still think that Jewish educators are glorified babysitters.
If you believe Jewish education is important – and you clearly do if you’re posting about this – perhaps you might consider changing your attitude about the people you entrust your children to over the course of a 9 hour day. I’m sure they’d be thrilled if they found out you think the work they are doing in educating children is not a “real” job.
Mark:
But it ensures that the schools get their due first and the fancy tzedakas get their’s second.
Brad,
I respect your position, and I agree that I probably do not have the best attitude toward educators.
However, at the same time, it is important to note that a job in the public sector or in education often offers a better quality of life than other jobs which earn more money. Educators have more time to spend with their families, and are able to be there when needed.
I don’t have a problem with the fact that I’ve chosen a more difficult career option that will make it more difficult for me to enjoy some of life’s pleasures.
Yes, educators, and others don’t get paid as much, but they should stop making it sound as though they are martyrs for a cause. Other people, with less satisfying jobs, often work much harder and spend less time with their families in order to be able to pay tuition.
I think its fine for people to be in fields that are more satisfying, and they certainly are “real” jobs (note that you used the term “real” job; I would never have used that term), but don’t expect others to cover for you when they make the sacrifices that you don’t want to make.
Working Dad is right. This problem is only going to get worse in the yeshivish world because the schools aren’t producing students who are capable of getting advanced degrees and high paying jobs. How many doctors or engineers do you think will be produced by these schools? Most of the non-modern Yeshivas teach the minimum (or even below) legal amount of secular studies. On the other hand, there are millions of other students and parents in public and private schools clamoring for more AP classes and such.
(continued) This will make Jewish people poorer and the expensive tuition system less sustainable.
Working Dad –
Perhaps it works differently in the East Coast, but I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that non-profit employees and educators get to spend more time with their families than do people in other fields.
Perhaps some part time teachers, sure. But youth educators in particular (especially in informal education, like youth groups, synagogues, etc) often work ridiculous hours, many weekends (and sometimes Jewish holidays if there are programs that need to be run!) .
I agree that griping is not a solution to any problem. And believe me, I’m not a fan of these haredi families with 12 children that drain public resources and don’t give back to society.
The term quality of life is subjective. If you’re making 250k a year and have to come home at 9 PM every night and miss tucking your children into bed and having a life with your spouse…well, I could easily say back to you “that’s the decision you’ve made in not choosing a more ‘satisfying’ occupation.”
Yeah, I won’t send my kids to public school… and while I had a wonderful/diciplined home school experience, my wife doesn’t want to home school at all.
It takes a lot of emuna and bitachon for me to send my kids to day school and yeshiva… I just don’t have the chedder. We’ve looked at moving to Israel, but I don’t want us to be a burden when we go over there, I want us to be help… and not sucking the life out of the state by taking the $25-40k offered for aliyah.
Good post.
if the parents cannot afford to pay tuition it is because they went to yeshiva and are working as a mashgiach for $11.75 an hour, off the books no benefits (after 3 raises).
Sounds like a good time to make aliyah… then u could get creme de la creme Jewish education with little or no cost!!!
have an easy fast
E Fink – But it ensures that the schools get their due first and the fancy tzedakas get their’s second.
But it doesn’t because as I mentioned every organization will clamor for money from the fund (just like they do with Federation funds that are communal in nature). And I hate to say it, but in many respects, our schools are “fancy” tzedakas!
@ Interesting to note,
I think your wrong… while that maybe be the case in some places, in others it’s not so. I had a 4 year education at a university gaining a degree in mechanical engineering. Still not getting paid much, so I switched to sales for my company who manufactures night vision.
Unfortunately in this market, with unemployment being so high, it is extremely hard to get a good paying job.
Whenever I go over to my friends, who are married and are having children, for a meal or just to hang out this topic undoubtably comes up. It always comes out to how the Yeshivahs are building such campuses (like YDT in Far Rockaway, which has taken out $32,000,000 loan backed by munuicipal bounds) and still have the “chutzpah” to increase tuition every year to extravagent amounts. It comes out usually that a school should be run like a business. If someone does not pay you, you do not continue services to that person or heap their expenses on others (however this isn’t a viable option in the “frum” community).
In the end there really is no “perfect” solution and some, maybe a lot, of what are deemed to be “extras” will eventually have to be cut.
I’m going to have to agree. The tuition is out of control. I don’t think I could afford to have kids right now.
It does strike me as extremely odd that the tuition is sky high and yet the teachers are routinely paid a month or two late (if at all) and they receive little to no benefits. Plus the schools are always hitting up parents for money. If there is a class project you’d better send little Chani to school with an extra 50$ or else she cannot make a bird feeder out of a paper towel roll (which you must also provide) and peanut butter. Where is the money going? They can’t all still be paying off mortgages? (Unless it’s on the principles swank new house).
Sure some kids go for free but not as many as you’d think. My parents could have really used a tuition break and they did not receive one. Not only that, the bais yakkov would not release my transcript so that I could get a scholarship to college until they cleared up a small balance on the bill. Many other bais yaakov’s won’t release transcripts to schools other than Touro college these days. You must go to Touro and transfer out if you want to go to a non segregated college.
Add all this to the non quality education and you’ve got a system that is seriously broken. I’d like to see a school that actually taught some english subjects and paid its faculty on time. Perhaps then I would not mind the exorbitant tuition.
Unfortunately, it is a self perpetuating system. I am one of the few girls from my class who is even thinking about a career. Of those six or seven girls maybe three chose something that will pay well. Everyone else bought the party line that college was evil and is becoming a yeshiva teacher (no training required for that job) or getting fake credits so they can rip off the state of NY by pretending to be speech therapists. They all want to marry learning boys (read: no income) and have zero means of paying the exorbitant tuition they will need to pay for their nine children to go to yeshiva.
I don’t think public school is the answer and would not send my children there. (My sister is a public school teacher. Let us just say you need to be in the right district to get any education from the public school system). The charter school system, while imperfect is at least a step in the right direction. I wish more people would embrace it.
Kosherbride –
Are you serious about BY not releasing transcripts to schools other than Touro?
Disgusting!!
crazy jewish Has a good point there. If the buildings cost so much, imagine how much maitanence is! And its not sexy to pay for something that doesn’t get you a big plaque, so they all go broke.
One word…. VOUCHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, we save the city of NY approx $25,000 for every child we send to yeshiva!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Theres no solution. Just make Aliyah!!!
Yes Brad I am serious. There are several Bais Yaakov’s that refuse to give you a copy of your transcript and will not send one to any school but touro. It is incredibly sad.
G-d Bless Heshy for bringing this crisis and others out from hiding. There is a HUGE difference between observance and religion.
I am a divorced guy and my marriage mainly broke because of these issues. I felt I was married to someone who needed to be so very observant, but in no way religious. Also, they didn’t care to learn anything, but rather wanted to observe everything blindly. After all isn’t that what the torah preaches?
Heshy brought up a great point with Kashrut. Why is everyone all over the symbol instead of looking into the ingredients as well. If it lists whole grain rice as the only ingredient then who cares if its triangle K. Also, there are many politics that go on (Bernie Madoff type stuff, sorry if that offends those who are idealists) that we the individual don’t hear about. Does anyone know what happened with Streits matzos and why they were pulled off the shelf a week before passover?
Yeshiva is a place where one should send their children to be brought up religiously. Get the correct values and a great education. First off, the education has become terrible. I’ve had the opportunity to go to public school for a couple of years and I can therefore formulate a response like this. Many of my friends have the mentality of “why do I need to know who the Vice President of the US is?” Why because you live in a world and you should know what is going on. That is why!
Not only is Yeshiva an arm and a leg, but it offers, unfortunately so in many cases, a fear based outlook on being religious. I grew up thinking if I brake shabbos I will be killed. On the other hand I should have been taught, in yeshiva, the beauty in having a day of rest.
If this is not enough of a deterrent, how we treat our Rabbayim and teachers, women who give their lives and souls to educate our spoiled children, speaks volumes. If raise or malkie teach in public school, then after 20 years they have a pension to live off of. However, women today have finally realized after 20 years in Yeshiva they have nothing to live on. What is wrong with us. We can’t support and give a pension to those women who bring up our kids? We can’t show them gratitude? From what I understand if a teacher after 20 years gets a thank you card its a big deal. What kind of values do we have today?
Furthermore, how often have you seen as I have, that a teacher reprimands the wrong kid and pays a price for it. Yes, it was the wrong kid, because his father has “money” and we all know in NY that “money = hshm.” Of course we bow to the dollar bill. After all it does preform miracles.
Yes, my marriage failed because of this. I married a women who wouldn’t address these issues and said “oh well we will deal with it and Yeshiva is more important than the education our kids get.” Do you know that after 2 years in Yeshiva I learned one thing and that is that Yeshiva starts when you leave. Yes, people it about us as parents. We bring the kids up. We bring them up with the right values or in too many cases wrong ones. We should tell them if their teacher punished them they must have done something wrong. NOT the sick way of “oh well let me find out why the teacher had the nerve to yell at you, didn’t they get my monthly donation.”
This is vulgar. When we start to act like the appropriate parents, get involved in the yeshiva, HONOR, yes people for g-d sakes we should honor our yeshiva teachers – the women and the men for dedicating themselves to our children. Our children, who are born today, with the knowledge that they are g-ds gift to the world even though they have done nothing to earn that title. Once we do these things then Yeshiva’s will flourish and we will not only need to but want to send our kids to such fine institutions. And I for one would spend every cent I ever make and sell the clothing on my back to send my child to such a school.
Frum Satire is talking real, not satirically.
Torah learning should be done more recreationally than doing it 5 hours a day and 2.5 hours of homework a night and paying $20,000 – $30,000 more per year to do it. I came away having less respect for Judaism because I was subject to learning rather than doing it in a more engaging and relaxing environment. Except for Hebrew, I probably did not come away with any skills from the Judaic coursework. Paying a Rabbi $100 a week for an 1-2 hour lesson about torah values and mitzvot will pay off in the long term than cramming for a final exam about how to do shechita. Tuition cost in my day was $15,000 – $20,000, but it came at a tremendous cost in that I could not travel to Israel.
It was only when I traveled there during my sophmore year in college that my Jewish spirit was reinvigorated for the first time since my Bar Mitzvah. That’s why my charitable donations go to Israel-centric charities and not to yeshivot here – the broader Jewish world needs to feel stronger and have better access to the roots of our spirituality. Had I not gone to Israel on Birthright, a tuition bill of $150,000 over a 12-year career would have been flushed down.
I also believe that the dual curriculum ultimately damaged my ability to explore extra-curricular activities which would have fostered my creativities to shape my ambitions better. I am happy where I am now, but nothing came of my education where I was inspired to do more with my like afterwards (except for my senior year “NYC Blazing” course, which turned me on to a career working with NYC properties).
IN the end, I would send my kids to public schools and supplement it with trips to Israel which would foster better pride and understanding of our people’s makeup. Hebrew, I’ll just upload Rosetta Stone and I can help them learn from there.
Yeshivot charge high tuition, knowing that the overwhelming majority cannot afford the cost. Then they can judge each family one by one and suck the most money they can out of each one. It is really just a form of price discrimination / market segmentation. Is it dishonest? – yes. Is it rare? – no. Almost every college in the US does the exact same thing!
Generally, speaking, the frum community does not deal with money objectively, but based on perceived need. Let me give you an example I faced firsthand. When I was a teacher, I received less than most others, not because I was any less qualified, although I was a rookie, but because I had no wife and kids at the time. Another teacher in my position with a wife and kids would get a lot more. The frum community always mixes “tzedakah” with compensation.
This entire “system” allows a few connected people to play god with the money of so many others. From an economic point of view, it leads to less economic efficiency, nepotism, and bland mediocrity.
I agree with Jonny. Everything is based on a combination of perceived need and who you are.
In our crumbling yeshiva, teachers kids got to attend free of charge. Some of these teachers retired years ago, but somhow passed on this benefits to their grown kids that don’t even work there. Regardless, the grandkids attend for free.
The tuition discounts are set by the woman in charge. People she gets along with and family get better deals than others (I got along with her very well).
Then you have all the corruption at the top. A couple weeks ago, one crook of a rabbi at the “top of the food chain” just sold himself a residential building owned by the yeshiva at half price of market value, still not sure how he justified that.
Thank God I’ve pulled my kids out for next year!
Heshy is a complete douch-bag.
He doesn’t give a shit about the tuitions we pay, he just wants his fucking hits.
He gets off on seeing more and more comments as well as writing the word “molestation”.
The truth is, I know someone who used to joke about molesters a lot…and it turns out HE WA ONE. He is in prison now.
Seriosuly-google how many times this asshole uses the word “molest” and “molester”…not too mention “sex”.
Heshy- fuck yourself.
Dude you crack me up
Now if only he would use the term “molest” in a sentence with me…ahhh..
SEX!
Har har har
i love the posts where i can almost HEAR you ranting them
Heshy molested my neshama. With his penis. Just kidding, with his blog.
You’re right, sometimes the tuition can be ridiculous. However, you failed to mention the fact that most yeshiva’s (excluding Israel seminary) give tuition breaks to those who need it. Additionally, a good reason to send your children to a yeshiva despite the “crappy” education is simply to keep them Jewish and religous. If you don’t like regular yeshiva education (like my good friend eyekanspel) then quit bitching and send your kids to a modern yeshiva braniac!
A buddy updated on her FB recently that a yeshivah application asked the make and year of her family’s car. Is this for real? Was she joking?
Shwartzie:
That was fucked up.
Ariella:
I would’ve wrote something sarcastic like: We ride an elephant to work.
Ariella,
This is quite normal if you ask for tuition assistance.in adition to your tax returns and assesments, they ask about all the property, cars and cash in the back that you own. They also ask about things like vacation budgets, etc.
Ben Yehuda,
So they should be allowed to parasitize fellow Jews, never defend the State which defends them from terrorists and avoid doing productive work their entire lives?
Screw that noise.
Jews in America need a leader. Bottom line our education stinks and something really, really needs to be done. When we go back in the Jewish history, you can all see why we survived: Great leaders + education + kids = yesterday and tiny sparks of present which we are about to loose…
But what about the future, what is happening to us?
Instead of talking about the high tuition, why don’t you talk about rabeims low salaries?
if teaching payed as much as any decent job, it wouldn’t be such a sacrifice, and you would get more quality people teaching. As it is, every other person is paying something less than full tuition. Do the math, in the yeshiva I went to I would guess five kids in the class payed full tuition, and all the rest less than half. In a class of 25 kids, that’s barely enough to cover a 35-40k a year for the rebbe, some salary for the english teachers and you still have overhead and maintenance. A Rebbes son.
Eli – Do the math, in the yeshiva I went to I would guess five kids in the class payed full tuition, and all the rest less than half.
There’s the problem right here. We need to have everyone paying full tuition to have enough money for quality rabbeim/teachers. The people that can’t pay, can’t afford this kind of education. Just like they can’t afford other luxuries.
Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher’ of Torah) or a ‘dayan’ (‘judge’), or a ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) should be doing so Voluntarily. Out of his pure love for Hashem and the Torah. And his Ahavat Yisrael.
If he refuses to do community work voluntarily, and wants and accepts payment for everything he does, such a man should not be heading a community. He should get a job and earn a living. He can collect milk bottles or clean the windows. That is what is called ‘earning a living’.
Torah is learned, studied and taught: out of Love. Voluntarily. But the ‘rabbis’ have turned the Torah into their ‘Profession’, from which they earn money.
We are commanded in the Shema to:
‘LOVE Hashem, your G-d, WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with all your soul and with all your might.’
‘VE’AHAVTA et Hashem Elokecha BECHOL LEVAVECHA uvechol nafshecha uvechol meodecha.’ (Devarim, Vaethanan, 6:4-5)
Is the ordinary man or woman PAID to pray to Hashem, or to say some words of Torah? No. Has veshalom! But the rabbis are. These men can give ‘lovely’ shiurim that they have rehearsed. But they would not give a shiur without being paid for it.
The true hachamim and rabbis of old, all actually worked at proper jobs and professions.
Wake up! Even a little child could have worked this out. These salaried men can never truly stand for the Torah, because in a case of conflict between a correct course of action according to the Torah, and the rabbi or rav’s pocket – his pocket and position will always prevail.
Pirkei Avot: (2:2)
“Raban Gamliel beno shel Rabi Yehuda HaNassi omer: yafeh talmud Torah im derech eretz, sheyegiat shenaihem mashkachat avon. Vechol Torah she’ein imah melacha sofa betailah ve’goreret avon. Vechol haoskim im hatzibbur yiheyu imahem leShem Shamayim……”
“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabi Yehuda HaNassi, said: It is good to combine Torah study with a worldly occupation, for working at them both drives sin from the mind. All Torah without an occupation will in the end fail and lead to sin. And let all who work for the community do so for the sake of Heaven………”