On Love and Marriage
By Schwartzie
I remember the day in ninth grade when my rebbe was faced with the awkward task of explaining the concept of anal sex. “Ah, boys,” he told us, “lets say you have some thieves, and they want to rob a house.”
Biah she’lo c’darka, or, relations that occur not in the normal way, is an important concept when considering the finer points of the acquisition of a woman through intercourse- you know, the transaction.
“Now normally,” he continued, “the thieves would go in the front door and in that case they would have access to all the rooms in the house. But if the thieves had occasion to use the back door of the house- for whatever reason- they would only have access to several rooms. Would you say that the house was partially robbed, or is it considered a complete robbing?”
Indeed, is it considered a complete robbing? I don’t remember the maskana, but I can tell you one thing- the lock on that back door is certainly a little harder to crack than the one on the front door.
Explaining this sort of thing, I suppose, is one of the hazards of teaching the mesechta on marriage to a bunch of heretofore sheltered yeshiva boys, some of whom had never heard the particulars of how sexual intercourse is supposed to go (my cousin Yaakov told me when I was seven and he was ten and my parents being reformed hippies and avid Doctor Spock readers had no qualms about filling me in on the details- which, by the way, scared the shit out of me.
“What if it gets stuck?” I remember crying as I imagined some sort of zipper between a girl’s legs). I always wondered what my rebbe, obviously a talmid chacham, was thinking when he chose to teach us the most explicit of all the mesechtos of the gemara (though I hear that Gittin is pretty heavy, too. Go figure). “A woman can be acquired in three ways,” the mishna says, “through money, a written document, or sexual intercourse.” And contrary to popular belief, Chazal are no prudes.
We learned about everything- I’m talking about ALL the varieties of lo c’darka- you name it. We learned the minimum quotas for how often a man is required to provide satisfaction to his wife. A sailor has to do it once every six months, due to the nature of his job. A merchant, once a week.
Not surprisingly, rabbis are required to pleasure their wives every day (and twice on Friday nights). We learned the law for every contingency. I remember there was another time when the question arose whether a couple were considered married if they chose to consecrate their marriage through the act of sex but they stop halfway through.
What means halfway through? Before the man finishes (can all the ladies in the house say “That’s so chauvinistic”). Anyway, rebbe gets up there to explain all this to us, you know, how to tell when intercourse is considered over and so on- as if we couldn’t figure it out ourselves- and he’s turning red again, and his words are coming out real fast on account of he’s pretty nervous, and, after sending out the boy whose parents forbade him from learning this sugya, chas v’shalom, he says quickly-
“Um, you see, if you are moving a couch from one room into another, boys, and you put the couch down halfway through, is it considered to be in the first room or the second room?”
So some kid raises his hand and asks which room the couch is further into, and then rebbe says that it doesn’t matter, and the kid asks why, and rebbe says that he can’t explain the mashal any further because of darchei tznius.
In eleventh grade after being thrown out of that yeshiva and several others, I found myself in the day school back home, where the rebbi asked my class to decide which mesechta we wanted to learn. It didn’t take me long to convince the class which one. I remember putting my previous knowledge of Kiddushin to good use when I asked some detailed questions- which relied on several m’forshim- involving myself, the rabbi’s twin daughters, and a can of whipped cream.
The rabbi fielded the questions with surprising aplomb, leveling his well-put answers evenly at me. I don’t remember the rabbi losing his cool that year (the sole exception being the time he told us that he liked to collect old and unusual things, to which my friend yelled “Like your wife?).
This in spite of all the perverse comments my friends and I threw in between lines of gemara. I still find myself calling him from time to time, asking more serious questions that have a real impact on my life. And as a character whose mind is steeped in filth, having a rabbi who actually picks up the phone when I call is really something to be thankful for.
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{ 78 comments… read them below or add one }
“like your wife?”—-
CLASSIC!
Which school teaches Kiddushin in 9′th grade anyway?
Not surprisingly, rabbis are required to pleasure their wives every day (and twice on Friday nights).
Totally untrue
i remember a naive young sheltered friend of mine ,asking the rebbi:biya shloh kdarko – what he walks out of the room backwards?!!
Yeah, I knew some stickler would call me out on the fact that rabbis don’t have to do their wives twice on Friday night. I’m pretty sure the gemara says rabbis should do it once a day, though. Whatever. Relax a little. We’re on frumsatire. Fact doesn’t play into this much.
This was totally snarky and well-written. great job.
My school actually had to bring in someone not on school staff to discuss sex and sexuality in 8th grade. God forbid we could discuss real issues with our rabbeim.
For once I agree with Sergeant J, the line is a killer.
We all had a blast with those gemaras, kidushin and gittin are both in the lubavitch yeshiva roster. I wonder if it’s a way to get otherwise non interested teenagers into actually learning something.
Your rebbis walked right into those lines though, the ones we had didn’t get into any details at all, they already knew that we knew exactly what they were talking about. Still, I had fun playing dumb a few times just to watch them try to squirm his way out of being explicit.
oh man I wish I knew about the rabbi once a day thing .. I would have soooooooo went for a rabbi!!
just kidding.
“What means halfway through? Before the man finishes” so anywhere from 30 to 40 seconds?
wow.
this post taught me a lot.
Once a week, on Friday night is recommended for rabbis.
No one here is being a stickler, but I’m sure many people who have no clue about Jewish Law will assume you are talking from experience, when in reality you are talking out of your ’shelo kedarka’.
Love the post! Way funny! I so remember learning about anal sex in 9th grade too! Think that was because the whole yeshiva was always studying the same thing. My rebbe was a bit more direct, although the term ass never came up.
darkah – you rock
Reuven- I thought you were going to say that you learned about anal in 9th grade because the whole yeshiva was doing it.
And Heshy- you’re a lo k’darkah.
What about the yevama case, where the man falls off the roof with an erection, and falls into the open legs of his sister in law, BY MISTAKE…
As they stay on the intarwebs: “pics or it didnt happen”
Do have a scouce for the halachah that a rabbi is obliged to pleasure his wife every day and twice on friday night?I always thought it was one time a week friday night?But then again I’m not a rabbi, but my dad is, and it would sure explain why I have so many siblings.
How many time a week you supposed to pleasure yo woman if you is a food stamp recipient?Oh while we on the subject of black people Ricky Henderson was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame yesterday.Mazal Tov!
Bsamim:
It is all in the Shulchan Aruch.
Although for the American chevra R’ Moshe paskened twice a week across the board.
Heshy with all your travels you’re kind of like a sailor so if you ever find a wife it will be once a month!
Heshy with all yout=r travels you’re kind of like a sailor so if you ever find a wife it will be once a month!
Have you yourself tried it?
Shaina Maidel
Heshy got a mouth of a sailor.Does that count.
Soul Bratha
The amnswer is never.Because once a woman finds out your in food stamps she’ll never have sex with you anyway.
Talking about sex. I never got those hippie chicks who burned their bras in the ’60s as a political statment for the Womens Liberation Movement.Anyone who watched those protests just thought those girls were sluts.
Bsamim,
I know of of rabbis on food stamps with many kids. I don’t think they were produced by immaculate conception.
I’VE MET SOME PEOPLE THAT SEEM TO BE THE RESULT OF ANAL SEX!
Yay- Surprise-yet another dumbass post by the king of assholes.
Just to be clear as I never learned this stuff since we females had cooking and sewing while the boys were in gemara class, so anal sex is assur?
Well now that you’ve gone and elected me king of assholes Jimbo, I guess you have to do whatever I tell you. In fact, everyone does. Everyone here is a rectum. Just not as sore as Jimmy. Yay!
TO – Just to be clear as I never learned this stuff since we females had cooking and sewing while the boys were in gemara class, so anal sex is assur?
Someone (respectable) once told me that all sex between spouses is fine. I didn’t quite believe him then, and still don’t, but I’ve never seen it discussed in detail anywhere.
Just saw this extremely stupid youtube clip, remind me of the title of this post. All the gay lovers will probably enjoy this one, can’t believe the friggin thing had over 23 million views:
Check: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGkxcY7YFU
TikunOlam – it’s sodomy and not very appealing anyway.
I guess it must have appealed to some people, seeing that they practiced it. Probably the first birth control method to be used.
Phil, garlic was probably the first effective form of birth control.
Anal sex? Not so much. Where do you think lawyers and brokers come from?
TikunOlam Nedarim 20b (I’m not mistaken) says a husband can do whatever he wants to his wife including this.
Can I please just say that I really love all of Schwartzie’s posts and if I weren’t in a serious relationship I would have a total crush on him? I’m being serious; hysterical stuff.
how about the gemorah in sota that asks, “how do you know it was semen maybe it was the white of the egg”?
@ Shmelke – you might want to take one of those adult ed courses on human sexuality.
@Phil – you might want to write “practice” instead of “practiced”
@ Chris – please tell me this assumes the wife’s consent or you are going to give me reason 2861 for not to being frum anymore.
Rambam says anything goes between husband and wife as long as no sperm gets wasted.
Shulchan Aruch disagrees and places more restrictions on positions and general conduct during the act.
Personally, I’m all for the Rambam’s approach, though I doubt it’s accepted as the mainstream approach. Frum people already have enough restrictions when it comes to these things, placing too many chumrahs leads to infidelity and abuse such as we see in the heimish world way too often.
Phil – Rambam says anything goes between husband and wife as long as no sperm gets wasted.
Is swallowing considered to be wasteful?
Chris – Nedarim 20b (I’m not mistaken) says a husband can do whatever he wants to his wife including this.
I didn’t check the gemara, but I am assuming that the statement is more like “… can do whatever he wants for his wife” since the obligation is on the man to satisfy his wife, not the other way around.
Mark,
Still trying to figure that one out. One the one hand, it’s full of protein and nutrients, on the other, some find it disgusting which might render it close to non kosher.
Ask your local rav.
Reminds me of that joke about Chelsea Clinton not having any siblings because Monica swallowed them
If it were assur, there probably wouldn’t be a hava amina that it could be used to get married.
Ha ha. But it’s a serious question, more generally stated as “is ejaculating anywhere outside of the vagina considered to be wasteful?”
Also, the kashrut point is interesting. I think I’ve read that breastmilk is non-kosher to anyone except a baby. Maybe the same could be applied to semen, that it is non-kosher to anyone except ones wife?
Mark,
As usual, I’ll start by telling you I’m no rabbi, not even close.
I did do some research on halachic acceptability of birth control. Condoms are a big no-no, sponges aren’t as bad, pills are best. All this because it’s “derech biah”. So anything outside the proper hole is out, according to most opinions.
As for breastmilk, it’s kosher parve and permissible to drink, but the rabbis cursed a grown adult that drinks it “straight from the tap”, calling them “worse than a lizard”.
Following that theory, if ones wife aquired a taste for it, she might be better of drinking it as a shooter.. or maybe a milkshake.
OO
That’s two eyes wide open in fright.
And I thought the local public schools covered much… evidently not…
I’m going to be shuddering for days…
Suitepotato, when we say that the Torah (written and oral) covers everything in life, we mean it!
Why is it that every time this perverted shwartzie dude writes a post it has to some how tie into mocking the Torah? Oh wait……he said he got kicked out of multiple yeshiva’s. That explains everything!
For all those searching for answers on sex and halacha, have you tried CalmKallahs.com? Here’s a good link:
http://www.calmkallahs.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=157
Phil, why should some finding it disgusting make it non-kosher? It seems to me that the only effect would be to make it non-forbidden, if it otherwise were, or to remove the din of basar, if it otherwise had it.
There is a very nice book available in English on birth control, called Birth Control in Halacha. (When my mother saw it on my desk, she asked my friend “is he finally dating someone?”) It goes through history, philosophy, then through the halachic sources. Much depends on the mishnah dealing with moch and its many readings.
Cholov isha – I’ve wondered if one could start a line of kosher parve real cheeses using this.
While anal sex is permitted as is indeed stated in Nedarim 20b (you had it right), however, you’re not allowed to make like a squirrel and bust a nut in the hole. It’s kinda like a tease to ride the Hershey Highway, but yet never be able to arrive at the destination…
I’m told that in chassidishe yeshivos they don’t learn Maseches Kesubos (which is WAY more explicit than Kiddushin, Gittin, and Nedarim).
While it says in Nedarim you can do what you want, there’s a dissenting opinion over there worth looking into…
I think she can swallow when she’s pregnant but many hold that you can’t look at the privates. Honestly, I think it depends on which circles you run in. MOs get more freaky than FFBs and everyone knows if you marry a virgin who’s religious… well, she won’t let you do anything.
Does anyone know, I heard you can only have relations at night by low light. Is that true or is that just BP types? It was a guy from Monsey who told me this.
HESHY IS AN A-HOLE
TikunOlam,
From the way the translation read, I’m thinking it wasnt with consent but there was no indication of a context of force either. Google it for yourself or find a text and AYLOR. I’m hardly an expert on halacha.
Mark,
No, it really wasnt “for”. But hey I’m not the author or translator, just relaying what I found.
Phil,
Question then becomes what does “wasted” mean? Even taking into account the laws of nidah and peak fertility times, even in the case of “normal” intercourse, most sperm is in fact “wasted” from the biological point of view.
MbA,
if looking at parts is assur then all the more reason to keep some blindfolds handy in the bedroom. Which leads to another question, if men cant look at lady parts directly, how will they ever find the little man in the boat, a key point to fulfilling their obligation of satisfying their wives?
Chris – No, it really wasnt “for”. But hey I’m not the author or translator, just relaying what I found.
I checked the gemara earlier and it doesn’t say “le-ishto”, it says “be-ishto”.
meaning what Mark?
Well, “leishto” would mean “to his wife” and it doesn’t say that. “beishto” means something else, but I don’t quite know how to translate it. Literally it means “in his wife”, but that doesn’t make sense to me, the only discussions I see translate it as “with his wife”. I don’t really understand it properly, maybe Phil (or someone else more knowledgeable than I) can help explain further.
Actually, I don’t have a job. Writing these posts is therapeutic for me. Also, I love Judaism and don’t care about being expelled from yeshivos. Getting thrown out got me hand jobs and blue jeans, and that was fine with me. I love Hashem and every Jew, and I also love doing certain aveiros, but bottom line- I love a good laugh, so please try and enjoy it with me.
Puzzled,
I was once told that food deemed as “disgusting”,wasn’t permissible to eat. It was in reference to a kashrut question I asked the OK kosher people.
As far as breast milk and business, I had this great idea of putting lactating Chassidish ladies to work at home. Just hook them up to pumps, put the milk in the fridge and sell it online or mail order, as their is a huge market for breast milk among the rich people that prefer it to formula, yet don’t want to nurse.
Problem is, that selling breast milk is illegal in Canada, and I would likely have problems shipping across the border. Too bad, I had it all planned, including medical / drug testing, dry ice shipping, etc.
Chris,
Lot’s of stuff is technically wasted, such as in pregnant, menopausal and infertile women, yet all is permissible under the “derech biah” thing, loosely transalted as “the nature of intercourse”.
What’s out, is anything squirting outside the right hole.
Comment Number52
Just anouther emotional unintelligent comment.Why is having a job or not having a job valid proof or evidence for Hesh not to write this post .All you did by spewing right wing propaganda is proove yourself a dumbass.If you have an intelligent argument,
with valid proofs, let’s hear it .If not ,your just stupid.
Phil
That leaves us with a puzzle then. Did the husband in Nedarim 20b commit averah and if so why is the wife told that backdoor action is OK?
Chris,
The women in nedarim 20b were impliying doing the act missionary style and the husbands turned them over, the actual text says that they “set the table” and the husbands “overturned” it.
Not necessarily backdoor action, could have been doggie style or woman on top.
According to that gemara, anything goes, no mention of any seed wasted, etc. Example given is that when a person buyd a piece of meat or fish, he has the right to eat it in whichever ways he wants, roasted, salted, etc.
All this was in response to the previous daf which states the stringencies of R. Yochanan ben Dhbai, which aren’t accepted by the chachamim.
So the shulchan aruch must have other sources for it’s prohibitions, unless it’s just enforcing a stricter view which would seem out of the ordinary, as it usually would say something like “some have a custom to”, etc.
Anyway, this is first time I learned that daf, so you see, somthing good came out of this twisted discussion.
Phil,
My Rabbi explained that one as definite backdoor action example as what is permissible and what isnt between husband and wife. Point being that what is mutually enjoyable is permitted as long as its not a confusion of life and death.
Chris,
With all due respect to your rabbi, I saw “lav davka”, I’ve heard different translations.
Remember the context, the previous page list the stringencies of Rabbi Yochanan, including not looking at or kissing the spot, in addition to not having the woman on top.
The consensus in the sugya was that anything goes as long as you’re not fantasizing about anyone else during the act, and it’s fine for people to have stringencies such as R. Yochanan did, he claimed doing otherwise would pose certan risks to kids coming from those unions.
Phil
You surely have better access to the texts than I since I have to rely on snippets I find here and there in translation and dont have the formal education on how to read them either.
Chris,
That’s where the good side of the internet comes in. http://dafyomi.org has the traditinal text and provides english translation audio. Just click on any masechta, then the pages number, then “go”.
Once you are on the page, choose your audio type and follow along (as best you can) as the guy translates the text into english line by line with some references to Rashi and other commentary.
Thanks for the tip!
I have a friend who got permission to use a condom because she didn’t want to use the pill, because she wants to be able to have more children.
Just out of kuriousty, i wonder how many people in this thread are married/single?
Chris_B, there are many ways to navigate without vision.
are there religious women who are pervs and also good mothers/wives
So if you have sex but don’t marry, does that mean that Hashem has a chuppah waiting for you in the world to come?
macky,
I been married for quite a long time
s(b.)
this I’m well aware of, see above
Schwartzie-
Love love LOVE your posts! Hilarious, truly.
Great article.
According to the gemara in gittin, anything goes al pi halacha but “medically” (we’re talking talmudic medicine here) most of this stuff causes problems.
Coward,
That was before KY was invented…
anonymous coward, the superstitious pre-scientific twaddle which passes for talmudic medicine deserves to be consigned to the history books and the folklore departments of academic institutions. Anyone who actually takes that stuff seriously needs psychiatric evaluation. He or she is delusional or gullible to the point of pathology.
Seriously.
No joke.
And while we’re at it, the rest of the stuff that passes for science in the Talmud, the Shulan Aruch and so on deserves the same treatment. Lice are not spontaneously generated from sweat. Mice are not created from mud. Cats don’t have poison in their claws. Looking at your wife’s hoo-hah won’t cause birth defects. Reciting magical incantations won’t cure diseases. The Universe is about fifteen billion years old, not six thousand, and the Earth travels around the Sun. At least Maimonedes would have said “I went with the latest scientific knowledge of my day. I’m not surprised you know more now than I did then.”
OMG that was awesome!!! so funny!! brings back memories from 9th grade in mesivta,the uncomfortable rebbi,the extremely smart and curious kids….