I can sort of understand rioting because shabbos is being desecrated, but rioting because a child abuser was arrested is completely insane, and a huge chillul Hashem in my opinion. I literally couldn’t believe my ears when I heard about the latest Charedi riots, you have to have some respect for your government, if not complete chaos erupts.
With that said, what on earth could be done about it? I mean, if they agree to these peoples demands they are saying that violence works, but if they don’t the violence continues. Then again, if they burn down their own neighborhoods should they really care? Oh and where are the calls from Rabbis for the madness to end, it appears that everyone supports this madness.
I would hate to think what would happen if a man was arrested, what about if a Rabbi were arrested oy?Where are the gedolim?
-->
{ 48 comments… read them below or add one }
There ARE times for Hafganot, demonstrations. However, the Gedolim NEVER sanctioned violence. How can a Jew rationalize throwing stones, or worse, at another Jew? Seems there are too many people with too much time on their hands, and looking for excitement. Maybe they should show a free movie (Ushpizin maybe?) in a park somewhere to get them off the streets.
Absolutely disgusting!
You know, two years ago, a rabbi was arrested for basically hitting his son until his son died. Or in terms too harsh for charedim to hear – KILLING his son.
When he was arrested, there was the same exact reaction!
I think they just riot every summer!
sadly, sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
Boomie – Movies are ASSUR!!!
What if you call them SRATIM?
Even R’ Lazer Brody seems to agree on this one:
“As an eyewitness, I saw amazing police restraint in the face of provocations from Haredi-looking riff-raff. Since no rabbis that I know of condemned this violence, which is a tragic defamation of Hashem’s name, I’m on record in today’s lesson from minute 1:03.21 to minute 1:07.10 totally condemning the rock-throwing and explaining how serious the offense of intramural hate is. The demonstrators in no way represent Torah Judaism. Lawbreakers should go to jail. They only perpetuate Diaspora and suffering.
Hashem, we need Moshiach now. ”
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/proper-priorities.html
Yeah I’m also trying to figure out what exactly they are rioting for. The right to starve ur children?
Your post is a bigger Chillul Hashem. The religious Jews must be the ones who are wrong. The secular government must be right. Why are Jews the biggest anti-semites? There is another side that is being reported.
From http://www.vosizneias.com/35098/2009/07/16/jerusalem-rioting-intensifies-over-charedi-mother-arrest-welfare-office-evacuated/
The woman’s family claims the child has cancer and that his skeletal appearance is due to chemotherapy treatments, a claim vehemently denied by doctors, who have said that since the mother’s arrest, the child’s condition has improved and that he has begun to put on weight.
Dudu Zilbershlag, the family’s media adviser, told Army Radio on Thursday morning that they had medical documents proving their claim and would reveal them in a matter of hours.
From: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/36977/VIOLENCE!+Violent+Rioting+in+Chareidi+Yerushalayim+Due+To+Arrest+Of+Mother+-+UPDATED+10:15PM+IL.html (Comment 12)
personally know this nice woman . . . this child was hospitalized eight months ago the child didn’t eat well and was loosing weight, they diagnosed her with cancer r”l, and treated her with chemo therapy. Now they found out that it’s not cancer. (Most probably, this whole story is a cover-up, not to focus on them, for misdiagnosing and treating her all this time with chemo.) . . . she had suspicions that something is cooking, the were watching her with “seven-eyes” but what could she do. Unfortunately, the long-awaited time came as can happen many times, a child moves from side to side, one tube slipped out, they ran in with such a vengeance, they finally caught her. She wants’ to kill her child…. They said “we are already watching you several weeks on the hidden TV, now we got you.” They didn’t even want to hear her reply, the entire hospital staff was suddenly there, laughing at her as she cried,
Dude you are taking the two biggest chillul Hashem sites and trying to call me out based on complete propaganda – showing me I am a chillul Hashem based on news sites that are illegaly copying articles – editing real news and spreading their right wing craziness is completely ridiculous.
It’s never okay to riot.
Protest maybe, but riot?
The whole idea is contrary to Judaism. Damage property? Injure policemen?
Seriously, WHAT IS THE HETER?
You got a beef with the government do what everyone else does, file an appeal or sue the government.
STOP THE RIOTING!
You say there’s never a call for violence. Ok, I agree. But I don’t exempt someone from that statement just because they wear a badge and work for the government. I don’t know the facts of the case, and neither do most posters on here, I’d guess. I do know that claims that the medical system screwed up make sense in a country with socialist medicine. I do know that media reports tend to be biased. I do know, from the time I spent working in the medical field, that a child can look horrible because they’re sick, without their parents being abusive.
This is not, from all appearances, a case of a woman locking a child in a room and refusing to feed him. It is a tragic case of a sick child, with multiple surgeries. I’d expect such a child to look sick. I’ve seen skeletal looking children (when I worked in interfacility transport and went out in the middle of the night to bring cancer patients to the hospital) with very dedicated, concerned parents.
Can’t give in. Can’t crush them.
Obvious solution – Unilateral withdrawl.
It’s quite sickening. Once again purportedly ultra orthodox jews make a mockery out of Judaism while their “gedoilim” stand idly by. WTG morons!!
“showing me I am a chillul Hashem based on news sites that are illegaly copying articles – editing real news and spreading their right wing craziness is completely ridiculous.”
Sorry but Haaretz seems to be missing that side of the story, although they do mention past hospitalizations. The sites I’ve quote are reporting the other side also, similar to what Haaretaz is reporting. But they are Right Wing so I guess that means they have to be wrong.
“Seriously, WHAT IS THE HETER?”
Protecting a child abuser certainly wouldn’t be. Maybe the people living in that neighborhood and who know the woman know something we don’t.
There is certainly more going on here than meets the eye. Maybe we should wait see what happens, maybe even wait to see the result s of the investigation. Why so quick to condemn? It’s the goy’s job to spread blood liables.
Anon:
It is never okay to Riot. Even if there is more to the story.
anon – I’ve seen the same stories on Jpost and Ynet as in Haaretz.
Also the police claim to have tape of her taking out a feeding tube while at the hospital.
Maybe folks claiming bad things about the hospital are right. Maybe not. Meanwhile is rioting the right way to approach it?
This stuff always happens, and I think it has to stop. We had a child molester living in our community until finally one boy stepped up and said something. Turns out the molester had been living in another country working at a school and the Rabbi there found out he had been molesting boys there but didn’t want to say loshon horah or take him to the authorities, so he bought him a one way ticket out of the country. So that he can go and molest children somewhere else?
There has to be a line where the community has to deal with the fact that not speaking loshon horah abt a person has limits and people who starve their children and other horrible acts must be punished.
Instead of rioting, all the charedim should be saying tehillim for this sick child. And why in some articles is it a boy and some a girl?
Also, when someone has Munchausen’s-by-proxy, even those closest to the person don’t know. A hospital would never let a child with chemo who was that skinny and sick go home.
This is another example of mental health services being covered up in charedi communities and individuals not getting the services they need. Poor family.
If they want to fight and distroy so badly, join the damn army
VIN and YWN do not report – they lie frequently and cover things up and I nor anyone I know has respect for them. Copying news articles from other sites and editing them for your readers is not reporting – its stealing.
Anon:
first no matter what they shouldn’t riot. All these “grownup jews” are like my 2 year old nephew. They throw a tantrum if they don’t get their EXACT way. GROW UP!!!! Act MATURE and maybe some things will get done. If they don’t then people will just let them scream and yell and won’t do anything.
Second, why would we listen to the family over the police/Doctors/Nurses. These professionals have nothing to gain, besides saving a child and everything to lose (being ridiculed, harassed, besmirched, threatened, etc…)
The family has everything to gain. I’d rather listen to thrid party individuals who have NO REASON TO LIE!!
> Can’t give in. Can’t crush them.
Obvious solution – Unilateral withdrawl
You know, that just might work. What would happen to a country where most citizens sit in the bais medrash all day?
> It’s the goy’s job to spread blood liables.
And now we can safely ignore you.
At least one rabbi I’ve read has spoken out against the riots:
“The demonstrations in Jerusalem today took place right outside our Yeshiva. You can hear the shouting in the streets in the background starting at about minute 52:00.
As an eyewitness, I saw amazing police restraint in the face of provocations from Haredi-looking riff-raff. Since no rabbis that I know of condemned this violence, which is a tragic defamation of Hashem’s name, I’m on record in today’s lesson from minute 1:03.21 to minute 1:07.10 totally condemning the rock-throwing and explaining how serious the offense of intramural hate is. The demonstrators in no way represent Torah Judaism. Lawbreakers should go to jail. They only perpetuate Diaspora and suffering.”
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2009/07/proper-priorities.html
These people are behaving like animals and should be treated as such. Throw them into jail and let them scream in there. They do not represent any kind of Judaism and do not stand for the torah. They are out of the pale and should all be put in cherem.
I just want to mention one thing – I have never been a huge fan of a lot of the craziness that goes on in Geula, but I think that during the Three Weeks, Jews should refrain from insulting other Jews if at all possible. I don’t think that violent riots and vandalism are ever the answer, certainly not in a case where the facts are not known as in this case… However, I am also very disturbed by the recent wave of virulent anti-Haredi comments being spread online, most of them written by other Jews, especially at a time when we are remembering the great unholy power of Sinat Chinam amongst ourselves.
R Gold: The charedim are the ones brewing the sinas chinam, They are to blame for all of it. They are being mevazeh the streets of our holy city and we should stand up and scream for them to stop. Yes, we find ourselves in the three weeks and it appears these animals are trying to re-enact the churban by setting the city on fire we should not stand for it and we should loudly and vocaly protest it. NOT IN OUR HOLY CITY!
HonestlyFrum: Maybe you’re right, but why stoop to that level? Unless by talking about it you are somehow contributing to the solution, all the gossip and negativity on “our” (read, non-Haredi Jews) side is just exacerbating the problem…
I feel like such a hippie talking like this (sooo not like me!), but there you have it.
OK someone wanna help me out with my ongoing education and tell me something good about the charedi? All I ever hear is bad stuff.
anonymous: “obvious troll is obvious” as they say on the internets these days.
Can someone tell me which way is the mikva? All of this tumah is making me pasul. Lai ti di lai lai lai! Yum biddy bim bum bim.
Crazy Jewish – I don’t see any reason I wouldn’t presume that the family is more trustworthy than the state functionaries at the hospital. Do you know how much out and out lying I saw by medical professionals, in a country where health care is at least nominally in the market? It would be far worse when the state controls healthcare, as it does in Israel.
Puzzled – That may be true.
However, if indeed the facts are what is being reported, I think it is harder getting a multitude of people (I am including the various Doctors, Nurses, attendants, police, etc…) to keep to the same basic story with very little (or no) PERSONAL gain (I emphasize personal because there will always be people out for themselves) without someone from any of the institutions coming and refuting the claims than a family covering up their skeletons.
Puzzled – Honestly answer this, in a trial, which would you believe more, the arresting police officer or the individual who is on trial.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8154093.stm
Here is my answer to this entire situation
• Impose a curfew starting before arvit that stops after sunrise
• Padlock the local betmidrash or perhaps just stop paying for its upkeep.
• Place the rabbi of the community under house arrest forbidding visitors until he denounces the rioters and reproves them.
• The arrest of any rioters will result in the rioter not receiving any government checks for assistance for the rest of his life
• Draft X amount of people from the community each time there is a riot.
• Rioter dress code to spot trouble makers… I suggest red shirt with a yellow baseball cap and purple pants.
frum satire,
I sure hope what yousaid about VIN and YWN is 100% accurate cause if not, you’re the one spreading B.S.!
What I meant to say is that if you’re not accurate then it would be the quintessential case of Motzei Shem Ra.
@Chris_B
One attribute I admire about Chareidim: they don’t beat around the bush. Unlike some of the more liberal sects of Judaism I grew up with, they are less likely to give you a “well, that’s not generally done…” or “not reccomended…” or “well, you have to understand…”. Chareidi halakha, like their garb, is black and white assur/muttar.
Of course, I would never become Chareidi myself as I find that at the cost they tend to “chumra hop” too much for my taste. But in the words of Scarface, “[they're] always honest–even when [they're] lying”.
If you ever get a chance, I would recommend spending a shabbos in Me’ah She’arim, Ge’ulah, or B’nei B’rak to see for yourself. I’ve spent my share. Also, one of my favorite Rebbeim in my Yeshiva was a Chareidi. I’ll be the first to stand up and say that I find a lot of their beliefs redundant, but I still respect their unrelentlessness to an extent.
Final note: not all Chareidim are bad people. Even during my anti-religious phase, I’d still cringe when people sang “Chazeirim kol Chareidim, ve’nomar Amein”. I’ve got family who are Chariedi, and even though I’m openly OTD at the moment, we still love each other.
The Torah is compared to Ohr, and when you burn garbage it emits Ohr.
@ghottistyx
Thanks for the info. I pretty much doubt I’ll be going to Eretz Israel any time soon and while it might be interesting to spend Shabbat in such a place, I might not be welcomed. Me and wifey are CJ gerim and dont apologize for that fact (thats a whole nother issue).
Well crazy, now that would depend on what each said, and what else I know about them. In general, I tend to trust the person who is accused more – which is the basic assumption on which our criminal justice is (in theory) based. That’s why the prosecution must prove their case, not the other way around.
However, keep in mind that I’m not exactly saying that the medical functionaries would lie, or that that’s what I’m worried about. What I’m worried about in this case is not so much lying as it is misunderstanding, miscommunication, a sensationalist media, and policemen who are not , and are not supposed to be, medical professionals. Since the medical people aren’t policemen, they assume “well, better to be on the safe side if we’re not sure…” – especially in a socialized system, and the police who aren’t doctors say “the doctors say he looks awful – sounds like a clear case of abuse to me.”
I think that judging each riot as an individual case is not the correct thing to do. It may sound appear to make perfect sence to say that it is more justafiable to riot in the name of Shabbes that for this Child Abuser, but that is not the issue. The issue is that the Charedim are apposed to the government full stop and any excuse for a riot has been taken up in recent times and that is all the title ever is an excuse for a riot.
The state should sponsor air conditioners for these hotheads, maybe they’ll cool off.
@chris_b
So there’s something they’re not machmir about: the commandment to not taunt a ger (basically, it is forbidden to remind one of his/her past). So long as you’re with someone who is comfortable there, it should be okay.
I give it to the Yeshiva I went to in Israel. They used to take us on excursions into Me’ah She’arim when they were located in the Old City. When the Yeshiva moved to Beit Shemesh, they started spending a weekend in B’nei Brak. I’ve got stories about both places. Just a couple of quick ones:
The shul they used to take us to in Me’ah She’arim was a group called Karlin-Stolin, who notoriously shout davening on the top of their lungs. My yeshiva decided to pick one that really had an externally quaint custom. So when davening was over, they had us all split into small groups and have a Friday night meal with a member of the community. The man I was sent to, very sweet man. The whole way home we conversed (in Hebrew), I was mostly asking him what it’s like to grow up in Me’ah She’arim. For a guy who shouts davening, he was really quiet. We get to his house. There were about 15 people crowded around his small table. He begins by asking (still quietly) who wants to make kiddush. Then, he stands up and shouts on the top of his lungs “YOM HASHISHI!!!!” I wasn’t ready for that one at all. To this day, I still do a show-stopping impression of this one.
Later that night, my Yeshiva got to have a private tish with the Rebbe, who was in his early 30s but already considered a huge talmud chacham. He then did a Q/A session. I broke the ice by asking why some chassidim wear streimls and some don’t. He just shrugged and non-challantly answered “if you want to wear a streiml, you wear a streiml; if you don’t want to wear a streiml, you don’t wear one.” Later, someone asked him the difference between the various sects of Chassidim, between Chabad, Breslov, Viznitz, Bobov, Karlin-Stolin, et al. To that one, he joked “Lubavitchers don’t wear streimls.” And oh, Shabbos rocks were brought up, but he adamantly blamed it all on Neturei Karta, claiming that most mainstream Chassidim have nothing to do with it…
Final funny anecdote: the next year, when my Yeshiva did a shabbos in B’nei Brak, the Shana Aleph was put up in Viznitz, but the Shana Bet were put up in Karlin-Stolin. I had gotten separated from my group, so I was wandering around their dorms all alone. A group of bochurim saw me, and started trying to help me out. None of them spoke much English, so I ended up conversing with them in my very Americanized Hebrew. One of them, apparently the class clown of the bunch asked me “America’i?” (trans. loosely “are you American?”) I nodded my head. The dude smiled at me and said “NBA! Michael Jordan!” With a look in his eyes like he’d been dying to say that all his life but had never been exposed to someone who knows what that means. The next words out of his mouth were “Ata Makkir Bill Clinton, nachon? Eh, mah koreh im Monica?” (trans. “you’re familiar with Bill Clinton, right? What’s going on with Monica?” The year was 1999, it was still fresh in peoples’ minds). And I was thinking I came to B’nei Brak to get away from the Americanized culture, and here this guy was grilling me about the NBA, Michael Jordan, Bill Clinton, and Monica Lewinsky!
Hesh,
Why do some haredim and settlers riot? Because they know that rioting brings results. The learned this from our Palestinian cousins.
They saw the rock-throwing youths of Nablus and Ramallah, and the autonomous state that they were given, where Israeli Jews are forbidden to enter.
Those who supported a Palestinian state now see that other angry groups within Israel are using the same tactics to undermine the government.
Very interesting point, Sergey.
Most of the ‘dayanim’ & ‘rabbis’ of today are men who are ROTTEN. To their core.
They all refuse to deal with a CHILLUL HASHEM.
OH nO! That’s out of their remit! They start sprinting the 100 metres when they hear that.
And these so-called ‘dayanim’ & ‘rabbis’ we have allowed in have no AHAVAT YISRAEL. They are quite simply: poisonous SCUM.
When the top is ROTTEN, the rottenness filters down to everyone else.
Draft them!
Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher’ of Torah) or a ‘dayan’ (‘judge’), or a ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) should be doing so Voluntarily. Out of his pure love for Hashem and the Torah. And his Ahavat Yisrael.
If he refuses to do community work voluntarily, and wants and accepts payment for everything he does, such a man should not be leading a community. He should get a job and earn a living. He can collect milk bottles or clean the windows. That is what is called ‘earning a living’.
Torah is learned, studied and taught: out of Love. Voluntarily. But the ‘rabbis’ have turned the Torah into their ‘Profession’, from which they earn money.
We are commanded in the Shema to:
‘LOVE Hashem, your G-d, WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with all your soul and with all your might.’
‘VE’AHAVTA et Hashem Elokecha BECHOL LEVAVECHA uvechol nafshecha uvechol meodecha.’ (Devarim, Vaethanan, 6:4-5)
Is the ordinary man or woman PAID to pray to Hashem, or to say some words of Torah? No. Has veshalom! But the rabbis are. These men can give ‘lovely’ shiurim that they have rehearsed. But they would not give a shiur without being paid for it.
The true hachamim and rabbis of old, all actually worked at proper jobs and professions.
Wake up! Even a little child could have worked this out. These salaried men can never truly stand for the Torah, because in a case of conflict between a correct course of action according to the Torah, and the rabbi or rav’s pocket – his pocket and position will always prevail.
Pirkei Avot: (2:2)
“Raban Gamliel beno shel Rabi Yehuda HaNassi omer: yafeh talmud Torah im derech eretz, sheyegiat shenaihem mashkachat avon. Vechol Torah she’ein imah melacha sofa betailah ve’goreret avon. Vechol haoskim im hatzibbur yiheyu imahem leShem Shamayim……”
“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabi Yehuda HaNassi, said: It is good to combine Torah study with a worldly occupation, for working at them both drives sin from the mind. All Torah without an occupation will in the end fail and lead to sin. And let all who work for the community do so for the sake of Heaven………”