Comments on: What do you think of women’s prayer groups?

By: Puzzled

Puzzled — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:24:30 +0000

Ok, I never saw it in the text, so I may have misspoken. I think the point still comes through, though. Isn’t there a mishnah where a tanna said burning dinner is a sufficient reason for a man to divorce his wife? My point is simple – just because something is halachically permissible doesn’t mean it has to be socially accepted.

By: Yochanan

Yochanan — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:22:09 +0000

Puzzled,

I thought the “rule of thumb” was from an English Common Law, or whatever they call it.

I’ve also heard that the Rambam said that a man can’t personally beat his wife, but can get the Bet Din to do so.

By: kissmei'mshomer

kissmei'mshomer — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:15:05 +0000

Puzzled – I’m confused. It sounds to me like you’re saying that we should avoid women’s prayer groups for the same reason we avoid strip clubs and hitting wives with small objects?
Now I’m sure you’re not quite comparing women’s prayer groups to strip clubs and wife-beating. I’m assuming that you’re stating that since we readily accept that the same “halachic but not hashkafic” means that we just plain shouldn’t do certain things, why is it so hard to accept that we just should avoid women’s minyanim?

To me it seems MUCH MORE CLEAR why strip clubs and wife-beating should be avoided by decent people, in that is much clearer how a person is being directly harmed.

I disagree with your opinion that strip clubs re not demeaning to women. I am sure that there are strippers and exotic dancers who will tell you that they find their vocation liberating and empowering. Maybe there are some clubs where that it the case for such women.

But I highly doubt that the environment in most strip clubs embrace women as strong, independent individuals who are celebrating their sexuality because it makes them feel good and powerful and have the freedom to do with their bodies what they wish. It seems far more likely that the men are viewing them as their sexual playthings who are there to make MEN feel powerful. I also highly doubt that the men in these clubs respect these women very much.

So while I can understand that people oppose women’s prayer groups to do certain hashkafos (which I personally disagree with), it seems as though the hashkafa which would lead a person to avoid strip clubs and wife-beating is more clearly universal and more founded in basic decency. By contrast the hashkafa which opposes women’s prayer groups seems more dependent on one’s understanding of Jewish beliefs rather than on fundamental compassion.

By: Puzzled

Puzzled — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:40:42 +0000

Is anyone really willing to seriously argue that whatever is halachically permitted ought to be socially and culturally acceptable? What should I do with the Rambam ruling that it is permissible to hit one’s wife with a stick smaller than one’s thumb – should I get angry at haredim for saying we shouldn’t engage in this practice even though it isn’t forbidden?

By: Miriam Tzipora

Miriam Tzipora — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:11:32 +0000

That’s precisely the problem – halachically, it’s allowed. But socially/culturally/in practice…not so much in certain circles.

By: BT at Work

BT at Work — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:31:48 +0000

I heard a shiur last night on tzitzis, and why women shouldn’t wear them, and it sort of relates. It’s brought down from Moses Isserles and the Ba’er Hetev that because the tzitzis aren’t even mandatory for men – they only have to wear them when wearing a 4 cornered garment, and nowadays no one would wear it except for to voluntarily go out of their way – so for a woman to voluntarily take on something that is already voluntary it is a sign of haughtiness. Like they are saying “look how pious I am!!”, so they’re doing it for all the wrong reasons.

So I would think that If women are davening together just to be equal to men then it’s problematic.

But I would also think that if they get something spiritually out of davening together, they would just daven together in the women’s section of the shul while the men are davening. Why have their own little group?

By: Frum Satire

Frum Satire — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:49:39 +0000

It is allowed – the whole point is that there isn’t anything wrong with it but Charedim bitch and moan whenever a woman does anything that takes her away from the kitchen and baby making duties.

By: Shalom, NJ

Shalom, NJ — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:19:21 +0000

Perhaps it is somewhat similar to the Nazir, who gave a Korban Chattat (Sin Offering) after his time as a Nazir. The requirement of a Korban Chattat, of all korbanot, shows that while one may take on the stringencies of being a nazir if one felt the need, it wasn’t the preferred way of behavior. Likewise, if some women feel the need for a womens prayer group, it’s allowed, but not the best way for people in general.

By: Miriam Tzipora

Miriam Tzipora — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:03:23 +0000

As an egalitarian, I think it should be allowed, just as men’s prayer groups are allowed. But I also think it should not be necessary.

While women are not commanded to daven or wear talit/tefilin, we should be allowed to take on those mitzvot if we want to. I also think that men who take on the child-rearing role, either because they are widowers, divorced, or just stay at home dads, should be exempted from the time-bound commandments.

Fair is fair.