I went into a lot of churches in Spain, but not once did I think I was entering a house of worship – to me they were just huge cool looking museums. Then I posted the following video (see below) and it created this huge discussion on You Tube about whether or not a Jew can go into a church.
I shot the following video in this big cathedral in Barcelona. I walked in and to my joy there was this choir singing all my Jesus favorites – so I sat in a pew and watched for over an hour.
Be sure to click on the video and see the discussion happening on You Tube itself.
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{ 68 comments… read them below or add one }
dude, amazing grace is my favorite song, i love it, i wish lipa would make jewish words to it so they could play it at my funeral!!
oh yeah, and as for the whole going into the church thing, when i was in boston, i went into the old north church, the church in which paul revere lit the candles in the steeple to alert the bostonian’s of the british’s arrival, and please, when i entered the church, all that i was thinking about were the hostorical aspects of the building, not of any of the three parts of the trinity.
The concern is that it will “look like” you have decided Christianity is a better religion than Judaism.
I’m serious.
“all that i was thinking about were the hostorical aspects of the building”.
Ahh, so if while I’m eating bacon all I’m thinking about is the historical aspects of pork than it’s ok? Give me a break.
A Jew can’t go into a church? Please. Rabban Gamaliel went into the bath of Aphrodite.
I am sorry to burst everyone’s bubble I asked a well noted talmid chacham and a Jew is not allowed to enter a Church!
uh, TRS, equating eating pork, a doraysa, with entering a church, a possible takonas chachomim, is quite flawed logically. and He Who Fights Monsters, yes, i think that there is a vast difference between entering a run of the mill chuch, were there might be a problem of maris ayin, and entering a historical church, were everyone knows why you are entering the building.
Seems very reasonable to tour a church while in Spain. Also seems reasonable to make a video while there, like you did. Very TOURISTY thing to do!
‘Amazing Grace’ is a beautiful song and is unlikely, in and of itself, to lead Jews off the path merely by taping/listening to it. ‘Amazing Grace’ doesn’t mention Jesus, the Trinity, etc.. How could it impact any Jew in a negative way?
The way some people are carrying on it’s as though there is a fear of catching invisible ‘Christian Cooties’ and being defiled for life just by entering a Church!! Bunch of superstitious nonsense.
Please, people! The sky is not falling because he made, and posted, this video.
There is nothing wrong with a Jew going into a church. Entering a church will not turn you Christian, it will not convince you that Christianity is superior to any other religion, etc. etc. Forbidding Jews from entering churches is no better than those mosques that don’t allow non-Muslim visitors inside. Synagogues, at least in the States, are always open to whomever might like to enter, correct? We Jews are not supposed to be so exclusive.
And in Europe, especially, a lot of those churches – and Christianity in general – all completely tied up in local and continental history. To deprive yourself of the ability to enter one is to deprive yourself of a piece of world history. And that’s no good.
Joy,
Anonymous authority is anonymous.
former baltimorean,
That makes reasonable sense.
well its kind of controversial. I always thought you couldnt enter because they are a trinity. But I guess if its just a museam.. ??!
I grew up in a city full of churches (not in Spain, but close) and we never went into them no matter how tempting and despite the fact that many of them function mainly as museums these days. In school we learned about the works of art hanging in these churches but were never taken there obviously.
Alix Hecht – you can’t enter a church because Christianity functions as a trinity?
I’m confused. Are there some mystical superpowers floating around in a church’s air that I’m unaware of? Will the act of entering a church simply convince you to worship idols or other human beings?
See how little sense that makes?
What about those Rabbis that give tours of the Vatican?
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/717344/Rabbi_Dovid_Gottlieb/Entering_a_Church
Former baltimorian- if you listen to this drasha, you will hear that it is an Issur D’Oraysa.
He quoted a whole lot of rabbis, who were just human beings and therefore fallible. The only actual textual sources he quoted dealt with whether or not Moshe would daven near any kind of idols. Most Jews who enter churches these days do not do so to pray. Also, according to this guy, not only can you not enter a church, neither can you live in a city with a church in it. And it’s impossible to live in a city with no church in it, at least in the States. So this guy’s lecture is irrelevant.
The issue stems from the fact that you are not allowed to enter a place of idol worship. Many say that the trinity constitutes idol worship as they are worshiping multiple gods. The problem with this theory is that Jews would have much more to worry about than going into churches if Christians were idolaters (ie can’t do business with them).
I find it interesting that there has been less UPROAR on your blog about you sitting in a church for an hour than there was about you attending a “reform” minyan.
Bracha – I find it interesting that there has been less UPROAR on your blog about you sitting in a church for an hour than there was about you attending a “reform” minyan.
Now that is an excellent point!
Can you feel the achdut?
Nice vid.
While I am not expert, on the subject I think the Rambam, says that going into a church is a problem because of the fact that Christianity is avodah zorah. Because of the Yaska (Jesus) thing, and the trinity ect.
In chapter of Hilchot Avodas Kochavim ViChukoseihem, (Minsha Torah), its states (1st mitzvot) Not to show interest in the worship of false gods; also. mitzvot 30. To destroy false gods and all their objects of worship.
It seems that part of forbidding people from entering certain places is a fear of people seeing what other religions or denominations actually do (instead of what we say they do) and that they might then decide to change religions. How about a little confidence in our own beliefs?
Former Maryland man: I wasn’t equating pork to church, I was making fun of the ridiculous argument that “I feel or believe something” somehow equals it being ok.
Lena: if you don’t believe what the rabbis say then how do you believe what the Torah says?
TRS – I don’t happen to believe much in any of it, but that wasn’t my point.
Your question, in its current formulation, makes no sense. When you’re looking to decide what a religion truly advocates, you should disregard all of the human noise and go straight back to the very original texts (which in this case are the Hebrew Bible).
Any position advocated by a rabbi is simply a position, an opinion, an interpretation. Rabbis are human and therefore fallible and we shouldn’t be basing what is right and wrong on what they say.
Exactly my point. There’s no way of understanding what Judaism truly advocates without the “human noise” because it makes very little sense without that human noise.
According to you, we should never listen to anyone wiser than us, because they are fallible?
The human noise is just a cloud full of opinions and interpretations, handed down over the ages by human beings. Rabbis aren’t perfect and rabbis are not in communication with G-d, if there is one. All they have to go on are the same sources that we have. They read the same words that we ourselves can read on our own. They have no abilities beyond those that we ourselves also have.
So no, I don’t consider any rabbi as being wiser than myself or having a better ability to read or make decisions than do I.
So why should I blindly assume that someone else’s judgement is correct?
And I might remind you that rabbis disagree with each other all the time. So what do we do then? We go back to the original sources and decide what is right and wrong for ourselves.
Who says the Torah is correct? Who says the Torah is really the word of G-d? Maybe Moses made it up?
So you really think you’re smarter (or as smart) as every other person in history? How about Einstein? Or Isaac Newton?
Read this by R. Jeremy Rosen: http://www.jeremyrosen.com/halacha/entering_churches.html
Main points are that:
a. The law banning entry to a house of worship is predicated on the assumption that it is pagan. The Gemara in Avodah Zara strictly forbids trading with “akum” for three days before their festivals, and going into their houses of worship. Tosfot on the first daf (Assur) asks why in the Medieval Europe in its time these laws banning trading were being disregarded.
Amongst the answers is that of “eyvah”, a Talmudic principle that requires us to maintain good relations with those we live amongst, regardless of their religion.
b. Then there is the statement in Chullin 12b that idolaters outside of Israel are not real idolaters, but are merely following customs without understanding what they are doing.
But Tosfot, itself, concludes that we are no longer dealing with idolatry as understood in earlier times.
c. Rabbeynu Meiri of Posquieres, on the other hand, declared that any religion that had a system of law and ethics (mugdar b’nimussim) was not pagan (Beit HaBechira on Bava Kamma 113a,b).
Similar views to the Meiri’s are expressed by later authorities. The Maharal of Prague (ShoT 24), the Tifferet Yisrael (Avot 3.14), and the Noda Biyehuda (in the introduction to Hitnatzlut HaMechaber) all declared that Christianity was not idolatry because it accepted the idea of Divine revelation.
Lena, while I don’t disagree with your points in general, I tend to think it’s a bit odd to say that the rabbis are not any wiser than ourselves. After all, just looking at the basics, I don’t have the Tanakh memorized, and I can’t pull up a verse on demand, or compare a point I make to the rest of Torah to look for contradictions. Could I get to that point? Of course. Do I require that what the rabbi says be understandable to me before I accept it? Of course – which means that once he’s explained the point, I’ll compare it to what I do know to look for contradictions, then ask about them. If the rabbi is dead and I’m looking in a book, I’ll look for someone who agrees with him to explain it to me.
On disagreements – I don’t think it’s true that the only or best way to react is to go back to the original and decide what makes sense. There are whole books explaining the methods of choosing which position to follow for halacha l’meise.
I agree that rabbis are fallible, and I do believe that the Talmud and the meforshim are the work of men struggling to understand a text. But as a later person, my obligation is to look at theirs before choosing mine.
Not all Christians believe in the trinity as it is presented by the Catholics. Some believe that Jesus is the Messiah and in the Ruach HaKodesh the same way the Messianic Jews do; but they don’t necessarily identify with it if they do not have a Jewish connection.
Lena,
I was recently in Jerusalem (a city with churches, by the way) and heard an interesting shabbat sermon by a conservative Rabbi at the Fuchsberg center.
He argued (presumably for effect) that it was terrible that we give Tanach’s to our children because that is not the text on which Judaism is based. He pointed out that Judaism is NOT a torah centered religion, but rather a Talmud and rishonim centered religion. When you want to know about eating meat and milk, we don’t follow the literal text of the torah, we follow the halacha given in the Talmud (even us conservative Jews).
That is really what makes us “Jews” and not karaites, samaritans, christians, essenes or other sects which split off.
If we followed your logic about relying upon the original sources, we do not find the 39 types of labor prohibition in the Torah or tanach, we have minimal kashrut requirements directly in torah, and even the prayer services are inferred from torah, not directly commanded.
Puzzled – what makes the rabbis wiser? That they are more familiar with the writings of other rabbis than we are? So what?
I agree that it’s ok to agree with another rabbi’s position as long as you actually agree with it and you can back it up with something. What I dislike is he hive mentality, in which people accept what their rabbi says simply because he said so. And there are plenty of those.
But I disagree completely that you must look at rabbis’ writings in order to choose your opinion. You can use a rabbi’s argument to augment yours, but I don’t think that your opinion should have to be based on that of another person who has the same textual sources open to him that you do.
ConservativeSci Fi – I live in Tel Aviv. I’m aware that Jerusalem has churches.
If that truly is your opinion of Judaism, then it isn’t a religion, is it? It’s a set of rules built by a few human beings based on their interpretations of an ancient text.
“If we followed your logic about relying upon the original sources, we do not find the 39 types of labor prohibition in the Torah or tanach, we have minimal kashrut requirements directly in torah, and even the prayer services are inferred from torah, not directly commanded.”
And what’s wrong with that?
TRS, I specificaly mentioned that I used the logic of “all that i was thinking about were the hostorical aspects of the building”, in relation to entering a Church, an aspect which is not cut and dry as to the whether or not it is assur al pi halacha to enter, of course I would never use the logic of “I feel or believe something somehow equals it being ok” in relation to clear cut issurim, thats why your equation between eating pork and the issue being discussed was non-sensical.
Lena, a couple of points. First, in addition to a knowledge of rabbinic writings, the example I gave originally was knowledge of Tanakh. If you know the entire Tanakh, which I don’t, you avoid interpreting a verse in a way that contradicts other verses. I don’t have all the verses available in my head, and I know that, in attempting to understand what a particular verse or section means, I don’t read through the rest of the book, looking for contradictions. If I knew the whole thing by heart, I think I’d give less foolish explanations.
On your second point – Torah study is not the only field in which it makes sense to know the explanations given previously – in fact, it’s true in every field of study. If you don’t learn the arguments that have been presented before, you have failed to take advantage of living among other human beings. It’s like deciding to make up claims about ethics and not thinking it’s worthwhile to read what was written previously on the subject. When we read philosophy, we don’t just learn that Kant liked the categorical imperative – we also learn all the arguments given against it so that we don’t say “I also like the categorical imperative” without first thinking through the objections. It’s even more true with Torah, though, since earlier generations are closer to revelation.
If only Shuls were like this, maybe I would go more often
Jews shouldn’t go into churches because its just plain gross. Even having to go into a church basement for a civil meeting or vote gives me a creepy feeling that makes me want to leave asap. These places definitely have auras or something to them. Don’t ask me to explain though, just how I feel.
I’m not a even a Jew and I won’t enter a church.
Aside from the ‘avodah zarah, there are often human remains so the place is like a graveyard. Even if a yisra’el could enter, a kohen could not.
I wish I had a little more knowledge about the halachic issues at hand, but since I don’t I’ll keep quiet on that. I will, however, say that comparing walking into a church to eating non-kosher, committing adultery, killing people, or whatever other serious issurei deoraisa you can think of, is completely ludicrous. There is no way that just walking into a church is the equivalent of idol “worship”. This seems like simple logic to me, but feel free to prove me wrong. The rabbonim may have outlawed it due to other reasons (such as “maaras ayin”, which obviously doesn’t apply when walking into churches that are now museums), but I am only speaking of the comparison between walking into a church and committing issurei deoraisa, which I think is patently ridiculous. I also agree with the commenter who pointed out that people make much more of a stink over “Heshy goes to a reform minyan” than they do over “Heshy goes into a church”. It really is a sad state of affairs (I can hear the rebuttal now: at lest wen u wak in too a churc u no its farkakt, butt u tink refom iz a reel shul).
Dude, the rabbinic prohibition on gentile remains was applied only to touching them, not to being in the same “tent” as them. The “tent” prohibition is only for Jewish remains.
It is absolutely 100% prohibited for a Jew to walk into a church. Like was stated earlier; If going into a reform shul is prohibited imagine how much worse it is to go into a church!!! This past weeks parsha was about how the Jews steeped to such low levels and worshiped “Ba’al Pe’or” and now you go strutting your behind into a church!? DOG!!!
It seems to me, yeshiva dude, that Heshy neither bowed to idols nor had sex in public with Midianite princess. He went into a church which had been turned into a museum, and he didn’t worship there. Can we get a little perspective?
Puzzled,
Listen up dumshit!!! Not only is it completely prohibited due to the fact that just merely being there may LEAD to serving avodda zora (similar to the reason why we follow shomer negia), it is certainly prohibited on account of Ma’arus Ayin alone (doing something that may in itself not be prohibited, but the mere fact that it LOOKS prohibited and may cause others to speak badly about you). I hope that I enlightened your peanut sized brain Puzzled!!!
Puzzled,
Oh yes, in regards to what you said “He went into a church which had been turned into a museum”, maybe you should excercise your brain more often and reread what he wrote “to me they were just huge cool looking museums.” meaning that it was not actually turned into a museum only that he was looking at it from that perspective you moran!!!!
Its funny to imagine some of these comments being typed and the commenter. I get some hilarious but unflattering mind movies.
Well yeshiva dude, I would have went in either way. But that’s the level of observance I am at. If there are Rabbi led tours of the Vatican, some random church in Barcelona can’t be too bad – also the choir rocked.
The other churches I went into definitely had some prayer going on, I kind of like whole wafer thing, if only they gave hazelnut flavored wafers to embody christ..
Yeshiva dude, what’s the halacha about calling someone “dumshit” or accusing them of having a “peanut sized brain”? What about how it LOOKS to say such things? What if it causes other people to speak bad about you?
Hesh,
The sound you got this time was VERY good. Usually I cant bear to watch your vids because of the bad sound quality. If anything I’d say this is due to the acoustics of the room. A room like that can make even a medium good choir sound great. It amazes me how cathedral builders who lived hundreds of years before the science of architectural acoustics existed could *consistently* make places that sounded so good!
@ yeshiva dude
“Listen up dumshit!!! Not only is it completely prohibited due to the fact that just merely being there may LEAD to serving avodda zora (similar to the reason why we follow shomer negia)”
WOW. You suck at analogies. Shomer negia is a logical barrier between man and his natural and god given temptation for women. And yes, even Heshy has this temptation (unless he’s gay, but that’s not for me to know). On the other hand, I don’t think Heshy, nor anyone else, has any temptation to start worshiping Daddy, O Junior, and the holy spook, and walking into a church is not going to exacerbate a non-existent temptation. Please stick to gemarah, which you may have some skill at, and leave the analogies to those who know what they are talking about. Oh, and read my blog. When I say “eyekanspel”, I’m poking fun at “dumshits” like you, who cannot.
Oy Vey! Many churches too! How could you? How off the derech do you think you are now, Hesh? Do you even consider yourself still on the derech? Oy.
DAMN your comment system Heshy. I wrote and submitted a comment a few hours ago, and since I didn’t see it posted I tried to post it again right away but it wouldn’t post, claiming it was a duplicate post. But the post never showed up. Grrrrrr….
@ Esty
Do you have a brother named Chaim?
Frum Satire,
I seriously pitty you if you would have went in anyway, even if you knew that it was prohibited. Oh, and regarding those rabbinic tours to the vatican, are they led by Rabbi Jessica?
Mark,
Your right, perhaps I should have relaxed on my language use, but someone that sticks up for people clearly doing the wrong thing do not deserve any pity.
eyekanspel,
I really see how well you write and survived the “yeshivish education system”! (god is spelled with a capital G braniac!!). I myself was writing very quickly (as I am right now) and didn’t check over every word I wrote, similar to the way Heshy writes this blog. Oh, and in regards to Heshy and judging from his response to me and past things that he has written; I’m definately not that far off with assuming that his entry to a non Jewish house of worship may LEAD to him worshipping idols (yes worshiping can be spelled with two p’s).
Dude you are a wreck. The only thing you could find to poke fun at is the fact that I didn’t capitalize god! Let me just look at your last post. Pity has one “t” not two. The contraction for you are is “you’re” not “your. You know what, there are too many mistakes in that one post, so I’m going to stop now. Get a life dude. From the bad spelling to the old “Rabbi Jessica” jab, your post REEKS of the type of yeshivish writing that pisses me off. Learn to argue with logic instead of with insults.
eyekanspel,
The mere fact that you dedicate your free time to analyzing stupid spelling mistakes is extremely pathetic and shows that you’re the one that should get a life. Your ambitions are pathetic. Your objective in life is pathetic. Even worse, your attitude is pathetic. Dude!!!! wake up to reality, people make typing errors when they comment on a dumb blog. This is not a college essay you lowlife!!!! Quit psyco-analyzing every spelling error I make just becuase I have the word “yeshiva” in my name. To prove your whole philosophy wrong, I’ll have to reitirate it again for you; Heshy is not “yeshivish” and yet he makes countless spelling errors, so why don’t you go spend the rest of your pathetic life analyzing and spell checking his blog. Seriously, you’re the one who should get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yeshiva dude,
According to the most recent edition of the NYT Writers Style Guide:
Protip: The Firefox browser has built in spell check. If you see a red line under a word in your comment, just right click for a series of suggested spellings!
I may supprise americans to hear, as they have no government apoined relligious position in the U.S, but when the Archbishop of Canterbery was appointed the British Chief Rabbi and leader’s of other relligions attended the cerimony in westminster Abbey, would this happen if a Jew could not enter a Church?
Hesh,
You know good and well that going to church is forbidden, especially when they are singing songs about jc.
The fact that you were in Spain is even worse. Did you ever hear about the inquisition? Millions of Jews were expelled, robbed and tortured to death in the most horrific ways by the institution you visited.
In your place, I would have pissed on it with true Jewish pride!
Well said, Phil.
lol @Chris_B
yeshiva dude, your comments do not merit a greater response than the following lines.
.
ALLAH THE ALMIGHTY IS ALREADY ON EARTH!!!!!
Please stop in http://manaalmahdi.wordpress.com
Please refer to someone incharged fitted whatever doctrine you are. This is an exceptionally distinguished essence fitted all mankind.
Thanks.
Krulayar
this protest i participated in was organized in a church… we spent roughly one hour in the basement talking about How to Respomd to the Cops. somehow, i dont think god minds
The sign of The Almighty’s arrival: A face in the sky video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIsZ9bXqhxA
“to my joy there was this choir singing all my Jesus favorites” lmfao!
A Jewish Person (whether of Sephardi or Eastern European origin) is not allowed to go into ANY church. Every church, is quite simply, a place of idolatry. A church is a place of Avodah Zarah.
If a person has gone into a church, he/she must do Teshuva to Hashem quickly.
A person must similarly do Teshuva to Hashem if he/she has been inside any other place of idolatry e.g. a Buddist temple/Hindu temple/Sikh temple/Greek temple/buildings of any other kind of foreign worship.
These are all places of Avodah Zarah. They deny the Sovereignty of Hashem, the One G-d, and Creator of the World.
If any Jew is a “Freemason,” this too is based upon Avodah Zarah. He/she should stop going to such a place, and associating with “freemasons.”
Hashem, our G-d, is a very “JEALOUS G-D” who demands “EXCLUSIVE WORSHIP.” (2ND Commandment of the Asseret Hadibrot.)
Teshuvah is very great and regarded very highly in Shamayim. A person should seize the opportunity to do Teshuva to Hashem right now, while “the Gates of Teshuva are open”. By doing a true and sincere Teshuva to Hashem, the brachot (blessings) from Hashem will come into a person’s life, and obstacles will begin to shift.
The Jewish People is a “Holy People.” “Am Kadosh.” We are so holy, that Hashem says to Moshe Rabeinu, in the Parsha of Yitro:
“Now, if you surely listen to Me (My Voice), and you keep My Covenant, you shall be to Me the most beloved TREASURE among all nations, for all the world is Mine. And you shall be to Me, a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and a HOLY NATION.” These are the words that you must relate to the Children of Israel.” (Yitro, 19:5-6)
We are referred to as being Hashem’s special “Treasure.” We are a “Holy Nation,” and so holy, that we are to emulate the Cohanim, who are of a much higher stature than the rest of the Jewish People. One day, we will all be on the level of a “Kingdom of Priests.”
The Benei Yisrael must follow the example of the true Kohanim. We should emulate the Cohanim in our daily lives, to make this into a reality.