I have to tell you the truth, when my meal partner from Ascent in Tzfat told me that the people we were eating at had a bunch of children with disabilities I wanted to change meals, I wasn’t in the mood of some awkward meal with special needs kids screaming in my ear and coughing up their medications on me, no thank you. Then he had to tell me that the food wasn’t too great either, man was I pissed.
The father of the house dropped by Ascent to pick us up, and we added two extra people to the meal. In Israel everything is beautiful according to some people, but I try to keep my cynical side on at all times, trying to break the hippie craziness that permeates everything.
We walked down the hill, when we passed the Ari Mikvah I started to get worried, I sure as hell hoped we weren’t going all the way down the hill. My shirt was sticking to my back and I listened with half an ear while the host told us about all the kivarim (burial grounds) of toadyism in the area. I never could get into it at burial grounds, it may be the crowds, or it may just be that we aren’t really sure if anyone is buried there and we may just be praying to a slippery marble floor. To me, praying at a grave requires some cave where people die if they walk too close.
We walked down and down and kept going until we finally made it to level ground, we were halfway to the valley floor by the time we got to the place we would be eating. Let me remind you all, that I had this vision in my mind of terrible food and kids throwing up on me, so the long walk wasn’t helping.
Suddenly 3 kids appeared in the street and ran up to hug their father who was walking us down the block, they were retards all right, but they weren’t coughing up blood or medicinal residue. We got into the house, which was super small and could see that there was no room for all of us, it kind of reminded me of my times going to the Machlis house, which was totally because of the girl factor. I was uber pissed at Ascent for giving us eye candy and then separating us for the meals, isn’t Lubavitch kiruv all about the women anyway? I always felt that Lubavitchers invited all the Jewish hotties into the fold so they could attract more people, kind of like Abercrombie and its hiring process.
The table was set and the chairs ranged from piano benches and stools to something that looked like a kids shtender. Then they started stacking the challah tray with tons of challah and worst fears were coming true right before my eyes. You see folks, in Israel poor people have something called the challah course, they have one big vat of humus or Mabucha and tons of challah, then they usually serve some dark meat chicken and half way through the chicken you realize that the kids aren’t eating anything because the guests got the good food. Nothing spells awkward like a bunch of special needs children, not enough room for the guests and one big challah course, I started to panic.
My fears went into code red when a Yemenite woman from down the hall brought more bread over, but they were soon gone as they started serving the drinks, if there was only going to be challah, there would only be water too, but that wouldn’t be the case. No sooner than the drinks came out, did multiple salads, and a bowl of very good soup appear. Suddenly I was happy, albeit a little curious what the story with the hodgepodge assortment of disabled children sitting around the table.
We didn’t have to wait long to hear what I can only describe as a gut wrenching story which made me want to run into the bathroom and cry my brains out and then ask for teshuva for thinking all of my selfish evil food thoughts as I was walking down the hill and regretting every step.
All of the children besides for one are adopted, 7 children in a tiny apartment, I noticed that two kids sleep in the living room. The hostess told us all about the sad fact that in Israel many people, including Charedim would leave their disabled children in the hospital and many of them would wind up in institutions. She told us of her organization which has a database of families who want to take children who are left in the hospital. She told us of the sad fact that Charedim are told by their Rabbis more often then not that they should leave the child in the hospital because its too hard to raise so many children as it is, she showed a lot of disdain when talking about her fellow Charedi families that had so little compassion for their own children.
It seems that their poverty is voluntary, as while they lived in Alaska they were working steady jobs, now the host learns in yeshiva while I am not sure what the wife does. Whatever it is, I was completely changed from one meal, she told us that giving birth to a child with down syndrome was the greatest blessing for their family that could ever happen and the women she has convinced to take their child home have all come back and told her that bringing a child with disabilities into their home changed their lives and helped their marriages like nothing else before.
I wonder what would happen if these people actually believed that disabled people are on a much higher madreiga than us mere mortals they may change their minds.
I was seriously crying inside during the entire meal, I didn’t get thrown up on and I learned some valuable lessons.
I have no idea what I would do if my future wife gave birth to a child with disabilities, but the thought of leaving my child in the hospital has never occurred to me, I have heard of other cases like this in the states. Rabbi Bomzer who is the Rav Hamchshir and Chaplain in Albany, NY told me that he visits with Chassidic children in the hospitals and institutes in the area because many families need to hide their children so the “normal” one’s can get a shidduch – its all about the shidduchim eh?
By the end of the meal I and I am sure my fellow Ascent meal-mates felt that we were in the presence of some very holy people, I kind of wanted to ask the host for a bracha, but was too embarrased to.
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{ 83 comments… read them below or add one }
Hesh, I thought I was going to have to kick your ass in responding to some deeply inappropriate remarks about special needs (btw…refrain from the word “retard”) but I am pleased to see that you were able to put others before your self and you got to see how good it feels
If you want to see special needs in Israel in a truly happy environment go to Shalva in Yerushalayim (www.shalva.org) and you will be happy to know that there are those in Israel beyond isolated families who care for those children who need more compassion than typical.
Proud of you, Hesh!
“She told us of the sad fact that Charedim are told by their Rabbis more often then not that they should leave the child in the hospital because its too hard to raise so many children as it is, she showed a lot of disdain when talking about her fellow Charedi families that had so little compassion for their own children.”
Some families leaving thier children in the hospital, I can believe – both Chareide and non-religious. MOST Chareidim leaving disabled children in the hospital – “more often than not” – “advised by their Rabbis”? THAT I cannot believe.
Enough with the Chareidi bashing all the time, geez.
It is actually encouraged by most Rabbanim that if a pregnant woman finds out that her unborn child is down syndrome or has some sort of difficult disability they should terminate the pregnancy. Even if there is no harm to the mother.
Actually Anon – this women runs an organization – I can get your her contact information. She told us that it was the Charedim that were the biggest issues because of their situation as it is. She herself is Charedi and tries to convince her fellow Charedi counterparts of the goodness in keeping their children.
I am not bashing, I am simply stating the facts.
About this guy with special needs children:
Are these his biological children? If yes, that means he and his wife knew that something was wrong with their genetic codes after the first kid. Yet, they still decided to have more kids.
Or perhaps him and his wife adopted special needs kids. That I can really admire.
Whoops, I missed the key paragraph saying all but one of the kids is adopted.
Wow.
“She told us of the sad fact that Charedim are told by their Rabbis more often then not that they should leave the child in the hospital because its too hard to raise so many children as it is, she showed a lot of disdain when talking about her fellow Charedi families that had so little compassion for their own children.”
That’s what really irks me about this have-as-many-children-as-possible attitude. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve met some beautiful and warm double-digit families. And those families tend to have the financial means to support all those kids.
However, it seems that some people go through 9 kids on while living on the edge of poverty. The, the 10th comes with Down’s Syndrome, and all of a sudden, they realize they can’t afford the child.
Quality not quantity.
Please change your title. It sucks.
“Rabbi Bomzer who is the Rav Hamchshir and Chaplain in Albany, NY told me that he visits with Chassidic children in the hospitals and institutes in the area because many families need to hide their children so the “normal” one’s can get a shidduch – its all about the shidduchim eh?”
Wow, so much for being rachamim bnei rachamim.
I’d personally rather marry someone whose brother or sister is retarded than someone whose parents abandoned their brother or sister.
Totally Imaginary:
“Oh, your mom left you’re little brother at the hospital cuz he was retarded? Dogs are better at parenting than that.”
Girl – your comment proved that my title worked.
> I wonder what would happen if these people actually believed that disabled people are on a much higher madreiga than us mere mortals they may change their minds.
They’re not. People have this idea that people with cognitive disabilities are holy and special. It is not special when feeding himself bits of bread is an accomplishment for a forty-year old man. Being born with your brain not working right isn’t qualitatively different than being born with your legs not working right. It’s just very sad.
Where in Alaska are they from?
G3 – haven’t you ever heard of people coming back to earth to fix something they messed up in their previous life. Like in my previous life I was a mime and didn’t talk enough so I had to come back as a comic.
They lived near Fairbanks.
G3 – The point is they already did so much in their previous lifetime(s) that all they have to do is what they are capable of. Their mission is way closer to completion than ours.
Thanks. I was trying to figure out if I know them. It’s not likely.
Just as there is an entire spectrum of Autism disorders, there are many, many degrees of Downs Syndrome. Some children with Downs are incapable of almost everything, while others function fairly well, considering. I had a friend in high school who was in the work study program for students with Downs Syndrome, and she was perfectly capable of carrying on a conversation with me, or playing basketball in gym class.
Wow from Fairbanks, Alaska to Israel talk about climate change!
Just I little joke to cheer things up:Pharoh says to Joseph”I had this dream 7 skinny cows 7 fat cows and I’ve asked all my wise men and no one knows what it means!!!!”Joseph says back”OK Pharoh, just chill out don’t have a cow”
My name says it all…heshy-u are a prick.
I don’t cAre how the story ended…did it HAVE to start that way?
Its all about the hits…you prick.
> haven’t you ever heard of people coming back to earth to fix something they messed up in their previous life.
Sure. It’s a wonderful bit of Hindu theology.
> The point is they already did so much in their previous lifetime(s) that all they have to do is what they are capable of. Their mission is way closer to completion than ours.
First, how do you know that? Maybe they’re disabled because they were horrible sinners in their previous lives, and this is their punishment. Secondly, that should apply to anyone born with a disability. Yet it is disproportionately applied to those who have cognitive difficulties.
i have no patience reading other peoples comments but.. Its sad that people in america hide their children.. i myself met a guy who’s brother was def and scared if we got married my kids would be def.. turns out he didn’t want what I wanted but still.. if you knew your future wife’s sibling was down syndrome and it could happen to you.. you might not even consider her.
I also never knew about the charadim leaving their kids in the hospital.. I went to a hasc concert a few years ago and this man with a down syndrome kid stood up on stage and said how hashem blessed him because he knew he could handle it.. he was proud and honored.. and these people leave their kids like the blacks leave their kids in the dumpster.. ok maybe not that bad but still… its your child.. i can’t imagine.
“Girl – your comment proved that my title worked.”
I find your title offensive. I don’t think that it sucks that my aunt has down syndrom.
… I would rather say: Down Syndrome haters and any other kinds of racists suck.
“I find your title offensive. I don’t think that it sucks that my aunt has down syndrom.”
I think it should change because it focused on the negative. Why not something along the lines of “My eye-opening experience with Downs Syndrome kids”?
I’m assuming half of the point of the post is to piss everyone off and make them think that Heshy is mean and insensitive and then see how his viewpoint was changed…
Yochanan – I’d personally rather marry someone whose brother or sister is retarded than someone whose parents abandoned their brother or sister.
But that is just the point. Many, perhaps even most, people in that community would prefer neither of your choices. But the first one they know about, the second is hidden and they will not know (unless someone in the family slips up and mentions it someday, but families who abandon their kids are usually very tight lipped about it), especially before marrying into the family. Then afterward, it’s too late, because being divorced is worse on the shidduch hierarchy than having someone disabled in the family.
G*3, how do you know it’s a punishment?
And I don’t think Jews believe in reincarnation, or coming back as someone else, but I might be wrong.
We do. It’s called a gilgul.
> how do you know it’s a punishment?
I don’t think its a punsihment. I was just pointing out that that’s as much a possibility as the “they’re this way because of how holy they are” option.
> We do. It’s called a gilgul.
Which doesn’t show up in Jewish sources until the middle ages. Unless you assume that the Zohar really was written by Rabbi Shimon bar Yochia, which is rather unlikely.
G*3 – Huh? Yeah. Doesn’t mean it’s not true. The longer golus has gone on the more has been revealed…
“Sure. It’s a wonderful bit of Hindu theology.”
Really? I never knew the Ari was a Hindu. Hmm, interesting.
all bachurim on the internet should get off it’s dangerous for a bachur and if you want me tell to you a dvar torah just write in the message box 1
“But that is just the point. Many, perhaps even most, people in that community would prefer neither of your choices. But the first one they know about, the second is hidden and they will not know (unless someone in the family slips up and mentions it someday, but families who abandon their kids are usually very tight lipped about it), especially before marrying into the family. Then afterward, it’s too late, because being divorced is worse on the shidduch hierarchy than having someone disabled in the family.”
Yeah, I get it. I wouldn’t know since it’s a secret (hint, hint). But, I’ve thought of some ways that might get the truth out of them:
1-Make up a story of a friend with Downs Syndrome baby. Ask their suggestion.
2-Ask “Don’t you have another son / daughter?” and check for sweaty palms and such.
I am probably the most informed of anyone posting/commenting here so far on the chareidi community as regards Down syndrome. Not only do I have a sassy teen (who happens to have Down syndrome), but I am one of the organizers of the Israeli Orthodox Down syndrome organization.
First, FRUM SATIRE, I have often wondered if your blog was one of those in the Jewish blogshpere worth “following”. I wish I had, so I could stop in protest. Your title is EXTREEMELY offensive. (Note that your post got caught by google’s “Down syndrome alert”, so expect a lot of further protests….) Do you not realize that many readers see the title, and say to themselves after reading it (or the title plus 2 or 3 lines), “Yeah, it sure does…”, and click on to something else, and never read your follow-up?
I am really furious that as my daughter is happily frying herself some pancakes, you have the stupidity to write such hurtfull comments. You may have a higher IQ than she does, but I think you are seriously lacking in common sense and decency. She is making the world a better place. Are you?
1. I am very familiar with the family who was written about in this article. HOWEVER, In ISRAEL at least, it is NOT true that “MOST” give up their children with DS for adoption.
ALMOST ALL chareidi parents in Israel who have children with DS take the child home. Most who do not (and they are FEW indeed) have some other factor involved in addition to the “big family” matter. We have many families with HUGE families who take the baby home, and manage, and manage well.
In the cases where the child is not take home, the child is sent to foster/adoptive homes.
I would like to point out that those “cruel” parents who do not take the child home were not cruel enough to abort him. So those of you crying crocidile tears and enjoying bashing the frum, can shut up if you would abort….
2. It is a lie that chareidi rabbis advocate abortion for DS. You are thinking, probably, of a mizrachi rabbi who said he would “stand behind” couples attempting to have more children (meaning he would sanction abortion in case the fetus had DS.). (See my reply to HIM here:)
http://beneaththewings.blogspot.com/2009/05/stand-behind.html
3.RE: “It is not special when feeding himself bits of bread is an accomplishment for a forty-year old man.” Excuse me, G*3 , where do you live? On the moon??? Even a person with SEVERE retardation can eat bread, easily. Please see: (and the point below, too):
http://beneaththewings.blogspot.com/2008/09/perhaps-its-infectious_7780.html
http://beneaththewings.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-look-what-ricki-is-studying.html
4. 95% of people with Down syndrome have mild or moderate impairment. Severe retardation is only in about 5% of the cases, most of which are cases of DS along with a secondary condition.
5. Rabbis who tell a couiple to give the child up for adoption are usually responding to the way in which the question was asked. I only know of one Rabbi (Vishnitz) who routinely advocates adoption, and even in Vishnitz we have parents who kept their child. (They never “asked”.)
There is a woman in the Shomron that also has housed several of these children, and I heard her speak once. According to her many of these babies are from staunchly secular home. Yes, most secular Israelis test for DS, but the preliminary tests are only a screening process that is not 100% accurate without amnio. Also, there are other conditions that are not tested for.
I wrote about therapeutic abortion in the religious zionist community on my blog:
http://www.amotherinisrael.com/2009/05/08/abortion-in-the-religious-zionist-community/
girl — it’s all about shock value and page hits when it comes to Heshy. “My eye-opening experience with Downs Syndrome kids” doesn’t quite deliver that same “satirical” kick.
The title may be offensive, but that what makes this article works.
Hesh’s realization at the end is so much more powerful because it is unexpected, given the cynical nature of the title and opening.
Excellent post.
Shevers I think you are the only one that understood the point of it.
Of course she did. She’s very understanding of difficult men.
Thank you Rickismom for trying to educate people, especially Hesh, about individuals with Down Syndrome and other special needs.
I’ve lost respect for this blog.
Please try to stop using the R-word. It is hurtful and disrespectful to people with special needs and should not be used.
Glad this got picked up by Google Alerts.
rickismom // Jul 8, 2009 at 2:35 am :
2. It is a lie that chareidi rabbis advocate abortion for DS. You are thinking, probably, of a mizrachi rabbi who said he would “stand behind” couples attempting to have more children (meaning he would sanction abortion in case the fetus had DS.). (See my reply to HIM here:)
It IS true that chareidi rabbonim encourage abortion if the child is DS. When you were expecting your child with DS, did you know beforehand? Did you ask what you should do?
Well I did! When I was 3 months pregnant the doctor thought my baby was DS and advised that I take the amnio test to confirm. While I waited to take that test I was scared, nervous, horrified and any other adjective in the book! I had gotten married 3.5 months before that and was 20 years old and scrared as hell. I asked several “chareidi” rabbonim what to do incase the test results were abnormal and ALL said they ENCOURAGE me to abort! I was shocked at the answer because I was under the assumption that frum jews dont do that. But I was wrong!
End of the story is the tests came back normal but 3 months later the baby didnt make it.
Sad story but luckily I didnt have to make such a decision. It is a hard decision but encouraged by rabbonim.
MS- Like most shailos, it all depends on whom you ask.
G3- Eastern Philosophies, like hinduism, are mostly based on Jewish and pre-Jewish mysticism. The concept of Gilgulim is almost universally accepted by frum thinkers.
rickismom- I too am a parent of a special needs child. I never considered having him live anywhere but at home. But at the age of 21 he decided he wanted to live in an Ohel-Bais Ezra home a few blocks away, and has been enjoying it ever since. Please understand that the title of this blog is “Frum Satire”. To expect anything other than fun being poked at every aspect of frum life, including those less fortunate, would be a waste of time. I was therefore pleasantly surprised with the way Heshy turned this post around. He seems to me to be maturing, and I for one, am proud of his growth. A year ago, he would not have considered someone like his hostess being holy, which she no doubt is, much less think about asking her for a brocho. If the author of Frum Satire can grow in his spirituality, then there’s hope for the rest of us!
> Huh? Yeah. Doesn’t mean it’s not true. The longer golus has gone on the more has been revealed…
You mean the longer Golus has gone on the more we have absorbed from other cultures…
Anyway, that would be in direct contradiction to the concept of hiskatnu hadoros
> Really? I never knew the Ari was a Hindu. Hmm, interesting.
Very funny. The Ari was a kabbalist, and a lot of kabbalah seems to have been influenced by Eastern religions.
> Excuse me, G*3 , where do you live? On the moon??? Even a person with SEVERE retardation can eat bread, easily.
New York, since you asked so nicely. I can’t speak to your experience, but I’ve been working with the MR/DD population for almost ten years now, and while it’s true that self-feeding is something that most can manage, I have met individuals who were infants in adult bodies. It’s heartbreaking.
> Eastern Philosophies, like hinduism, are mostly based on Jewish and pre-Jewish mysticism
Hinduism predates Jusaisim.
“The Ari was a kabbalist, and a lot of kabbalah seems to have been influenced by Eastern religions.”
So because something “seems to be” you disqualify it?
People, ease up. This blog isn’t called Frum Satire for nothing!
The title caught my eye and I read this article because of it. I was certain that a title like that would lead to an opposite conclusion and wasn’t disappointed.
I have a 2 year old DS son. He’s awesome! They just don’t come cuter than <a href="http://www.lipkinfamily.com/winter09/pages/IMG_5897.htm" this “normal” or not.
My wife and I both worked at HASC many years ago and can appreciate the humor, off color though it may be.
Someone mentioned Shalva. You should definitely visit if you have a chance. It’s an amazing place.
> So because something “seems to be” you disqualify it?
Disqualify it? No. Take it with a grain of salt.
Rickismom-
Thank you!
Put it this way, if I hadn’t used that title there would not have been this discussion.
Trust me if I wanted hits I know how to get them, I like Richard Pryor, but don’t have the balls to go that way yet and I leave the Holocaust humor up to Sarah Silverman and Larry David.
I read the comments and went back and reread the post, and except for a few un-pc words I can’t understand what the fuss is about. This is a really nice post about some apparently amazing people.
Thanks, Rickismom, and all the other folks who added their input from the front lines (so to speak). Hesh, you hitswhore, you’re lucky you turned this post around. I’m glad you learned something about what’s holy (and everything else, too). That one’s a keeper.
you blow frum satire…you blow real bad.
Hesh, I had no doubt that you would end up being impressed.
At Ida Crown there have been two (?) special needs kids on the wrestling team for a few years now, one of which has DS. Having been the former manager of the team, I have been able to see the incredible effects of having them on the team:
1) for the kids themselves:
To be included in a sports team as a full member who wears the singlet, gets a letter jacket, practices, and even wrestles against members of teams from other schools gives them an incredible sense of achievement and inclusion. I think all too often special needs children are separated and put in a corner, but this is a super cool way for them to be integrated and to learn a lot about the sport!
2) for the non-special needs wrestlers:
It’s one thing seeing them interact and wrestle with people they know and who they feel comfortable with. But when I see someone they have never met before, a strong wrestler from another school wrestle them, oh so gently, letting themselves be pinned but not without making the special wrestlers work for it, it reminds me that good exists, even within the “macho, gruff” sports world. it really is incredible to see.
Still, when the following appears on Google Alert:
Down Syndrome sucks!!! | Frum Satire | Jewish Comedy
By Frum Satire
down-syndrome I have to tell you the truth, when my meal partner from Ascent in Tzfat told me that the people we were eating at had a bunch of children with disabilities I wanted to change meals, I wasn’t in the mood of some awkward …
Well, anyone who sees that and DOESN’T read the entire article is left with a negative impression, and even worse, that Judaism supports that negative impression.
To the writer, it is satire. A way to get hits.
To my daughter it is living day-to-day with people who stare at you (do any of you have an idea what that is like, to be stared at everywhere you go?). It is living with a society where people erroneously think that you can not do anything at all. [Like the idiots who reach over to "help" when she is pouring a drink (which she can do quite well, thank you, since age two when we spent two weeks and about 12 liters of milk learning the task), the people in offices who ask me what is her name, rather than asking her, etc ad nauseum)]. And even living in a society that thinks that you are a burden, a mistake, a financial drain. Even the “Oh these kids are so sweet” remarks drive her crazy. She is not “these kids” She is Ricki.
So feel good, Mr. Frum Satire. You have your hits. And the people who saw the title and didn’t read further, have their negative impressions. Thanks a lot.
By the way, I wanted to add that today most people are aware that while Down syndrome is a genetic condition, it is not an inherited one, so it is general NOT a problem with shidduchim. (And if the other side doesn’t want us because of our special needs child, either they are either VERY stuck-up , or unwilling to hear the scientific facts. In either case, we simply sigh with relief that WE were saved from a bad shidduch. Who would want to be inlaws with such bigots? Not me!)
rickismom
That’s the right attitude for Shidduchim in general. If they don’t want your kid for stupid, inane reason, then it’s a good chance that you don’t want to be involved with a family like that anyway.
Fixed my link
I have a 2 year old DS son. He’s awesome! They just don’t come cuter than <a href="http://www.lipkinfamily.com/winter09/pages/IMG_5897.htm" this “normal” or not.
I’ll keep trying…
I have a 2 year old DS son. He’s awesome! They just don’t come cuter than this “normal” or not.
Rickismom, I am a reader and admirer of your blog, and I since I’m not coming from your POV I wouldn’t presume to disagree with what you have to say. But if you look at archives of FrumSatire, you’ll see that 58 comments is not a lot — there are A LOT of posts that are a lot more controversial that have A LOT more comments — and presumably a lot more hits. I really don’t think this was done for the hit count. And as I commented above, I enjoyed the post.
I have you on my blogroll and haven’t visited for a while. I must admit, I was a bit ‘wtf!’ at the title and the beginning part of your post, but read until the end (you usually end in style, imho). I’m glad I did and glad that you had a change of heart – nice one.
I took part in a charity bike ride event the other weekend and some of the participants were Downs Syndrome teenagers. My abiding memory was of one of these boys whooshing past me up hill on his own bike and punching the air as he got to the top of a very long hill. His Dad was absolutely beside himself with pride.
rickismom – And the people who saw the title and didn’t read further, have their negative impressions.
The people that look at the first 2 lines of a post and stop and make their judgment, are perhaps [some of] the same people that look at Ricki briefly and think “those [DS] kids” rather than “hey, that’s Ricki” or “I wonder if she wants to play”, or something else normal and usual.
“Judging a book by its cover” applies to blog posts as well as people.
rickismom – By the way, I wanted to add that today most people are aware that while Down syndrome is a genetic condition, it is not an inherited one, so it is general NOT a problem with shidduchim.
And in general, there are a lot of ignorant people out there.
I’ve seen this “bad for shidduchim” malady among many people that are extraordinarily good otherwise. I think it’s a kind of community pressure that is just so strong, and so widely accepted, that even the best people sometimes get caught up in it. Me? My idea of shidduchim is to keep everyone out of it except for the man and the woman in question. Yes, including the parents (who are almost always the source of shidduch troubles).
rickismom – In either case, we simply sigh with relief that WE were saved from a bad shidduch. Who would want to be inlaws with such bigots? Not me!
Hmmmm, this is “punishing” someone just because one or more of his/her parents are bigoted. It’s not nearly as bad as rejecting someone who has a sibling with DS, but it’s still bad (because DS is not a choice, while bigotry is, though maybe not entirely due to educational and cultural background, but still it isn’t the person in question, but rather is the parent[s]).
I would not drop a shidduch of a child for his parent’s closed-mindedness. But if I haven’t met the person yet, because his parents won’t agree, I have little else to judge on. I have more than one out-of-the-box type of spouse for my children. In fact, I’d say thank heavens that some of my offspring’s spouses had what Bnai Brak feels is a “defect”, because that enabled them to consider us*, and I am VERY PLEASED with the results.
(* our being normally not considered a good catch has nothing to do with Ricki)
* * * *
I want to say that my remarks were not meant to totally disqualify the post. There was a lot of good there, and I think it takes a bit of courage to own up that pre-conceived notions were wrong. I only wanted to point out:
1. What I believe are untrue/misleading/uninformed information in the post and comments
2. protest the title, because despite its advantage to the poster (which he himself admitted), people DO make quick judgements, and that title is frankly insulting , demeaning, and hurtfull. Would he DARE write about Michal Jackson,
“Gee, the Jackson n-gger could play!” or,
“The Jackson N-gger SUCKS”
I DOUBT it.
Tov. Sorry. Erase the Jackson sentences. I went too far
My G-d, how people can take the time to read the posts on a site called ‘Frum SATIRE’ and then get all bent out of shape because it can be written with ‘bad taste’!
Please, grow up and get over yourselves.
> But when I see someone they have never met before, a strong wrestler from another school wrestle them, oh so gently, letting themselves be pinned but not without making the special wrestlers work for it, it reminds me that good exists, even within the “macho, gruff” sports world. it really is incredible to see
Yeah, a lot of people with MR live in an artificial world. I know a teenager who got a job this summer as a messenger – and someone is being paid to drive him around and help him with his deliveries. If you or I applies for a job for which we needed someone who is paid more than our salary to help us do it, well, what do you think would happen.
I’m not so sure this is better than finding something that he would be truly competent at.
> To my daughter it is living day-to-day with people who stare at you (do any of you have an idea what that is like, to be stared at everywhere you go?).
I used to go places with guys who were obviously different all the time. When people stared, I waved. A lot of kids waved back. The adults usually ignored me or looked away.
The worst is when people would come over and ask, “So what happened to him/her?”
RE Jobs:
Most people with DS can work at decent jobs, with a bit of imagination/training. Many need a “job coach” for the first few weeks, to help them learn the job, fiqure out solutions for difficulties that pop up, etc.
PROBLEM:
In America, the waiting list for a job coach is so long that the young adult can spend ten years twiddling his thumbs.
In Israel, the job coaches are provided by organizations that provide housing. So the young adult who wants to live at home or on his own can’t get a job coach….
Tesya I don’t do anything for hit count. Hits and comments are usually in no relation. At a certain point I stopped caring about hits and hardly looking at my stats. The first two years I looked at stats – now its a once every few weeks thing.
In the blogging world you can get a lot of hits but to get the average time on page up to 4.5 minutes – that is impressive.
To the person that hates my blog – that’s great but why don’t you make a normal educated comment that proves tome your over 14?
Ricksmom – if anyone would visit my blog and read only half of the post they would think I am anti-Semite – but then again the points of these posts are the comments and discussion that follows – at least that’s what the people who just sent me to Israel and Spain think
I’m with Lipken.
a. people who work with “retarded” people or live with them and/or love them sometimes use the word “retarded.” I learned that from members of my family.
b. your comments about wanting to have switched houses before because of the disabilities annoyed me a lot more than your stupid sensationalist title. The fact that you even have it in you to think that way to begin with is sad to me.
c. DS kids and adults are great. I was really offended by the push by one of my ob/gyns to get tested for it. I didn’t care. Would never do anything about it. It isn’t TaySachs where the child will suffer and die. For goodness sakes. I realize now that most non-Frum people abort DS kids. That, to me, is pathetic. The magazine “Downs Syndrome Amongst Us” is excellent. It only comes out once in a blue moon, but is just so well-done.
d. as to the Gilgul thing which members of my family talk about, I hate that talk. I don’t presume to know whether my DS family member is a “special Neshama” or not. I just love her and will always be there to help take care of her. We should all get away from that frummy Gilgul/special Neshama talk. We don’t know anything concrete about it.
Oh and ftr, it is true that in some Chasidic circles, parents of DS kids are advised to adopt them out. In Litvish/Heimish circles, aborting is not at all supported. As with any other Sheyla, the Rav takes into account the person asking. Believe it or not, not all Rabanim are idiots and sometimes they know quite well that emotional strain can ruin a person’s marriage or delicate state so they will advise accordingly, same with birth control. It is case by case. None of us ever go around screaming our private Teshuvos so the rest of us don’t know what we have indeed been told. I will get on a soapbox, though, and say that if a family is functioning well and a mom is functioning well, then aborting a DS baby or any baby that will not have a painful and short life seems wrong and definately shouldn’t be encouraged en masse. The Shidduch thing, I don’t even care about. I am so over that whole ridiculous system as should 95% of the Orthodox population. It is corrupt, broken, and just disgusting.
> I don’t presume to know whether my DS family member is a “special Neshama” or not. I just love her and will always be there to help take care of her. We should all get away from that frummy Gilgul/special Neshama talk. We don’t know anything concrete about it.
Well said.
Downs Syndrome is an impairment, so how does it not “suck”? It’s not like he said “Kids with Downs Syndrome suck”. However, the picture of the baby might lead others to believe that he think so.
Utubefan said “a. people who work with “retarded” people or live with them and/or love them sometimes use the word “retarded.” I learned that from members of my family.”
There’s a difference between “retarded” and “retard”. The first is a medical term. The second is an insult.
http://www.down-syndrome-facts-and-fiction.com/mental-retardation.html
“Ritard”, however is short for “ritardando” and refers to immediately slowing down in a piece of music. It also gets great laughs in an elementary school band class.
Ricki’s mom, how warped is it- you think abandoning a living child is LESS cruel than aborting it before it ever came into the world????
“I would like to point out that those “cruel” parents who do not take the child home were not cruel enough to abort him. So those of you crying crocidile tears and enjoying bashing the frum, can shut up if you would abort….”
For further reading:
Expecting Adam by Martha Beck
Expecting Adam is an autobiographical tale of an academically oriented Harvard couple who conceive a baby with Down’s syndrome and decide to carry him to term. Despite everything Martha Beck and her husband John know about themselves and their belief system, when Martha gets accidentally pregnant and the fetus is discovered to have Down’s syndrome, the Becks find they cannot even consider abortion.
No, Ido not think that carrying a baby to term and letting some nice family adopt him is as cruel as killing him. We are not talking about subjecting someone to a cruel terrible life.
By the way, Lipkin, your son looks great!
“Expecting Adam” is a very interesting book. Anyone in the Tel Aviv area who wants to borrow can borrow from me. 579-4996
MS post #3 “It is actually encouraged by most Rabbanim that if a pregnant woman finds out that her unborn child is down syndrome or has some sort of difficult disability they should terminate the pregnancy. Even if there is no harm to the mother.”
What do you base this on? Do you know MOST RABBANIM?
Rickismom and MotherInIsrael, thank you!
and Heshy, thank you for realizing at the end how good these people are; you also need to understand to have more respect for Down Syndrome and other special needs kids: “retard” is a word that is NOT used in my daughter’s home (I have a 9 yr. old grandson with D.S. and he is a blessing), and it (in my opinion) is inappropriate in your post’s context.
You need to remember, there is satire, and there is crudeness. Know the difference.
they happen to be my second cousins. they have an amazing story! they were in alaska when they had their downs baby, she read that if there are 2 downs kids together they develope better so she adopted one. they needed to find a place where they could live with acceptance and the husband traveled to chicago where there was a kibbutz type place. they advised him to go to israel where they would be accepted. he started his geirus process and they moved to tsefat. there he wasnt sure what to do next. he started looking for daycare for his son. he went from one to the next and no one helped him. one day he was comming home dejected and his son ran into a shul where the rabbi picked him up put him on his lap and started teaching him the aleph beis. this rabbi finished the husbands geirus and helped the family integrate. since then the wife started visiting the downs kids in the hospital. she fell in love with one girl that was left behind and adopted her. ever since then she continues visting the children and raising awareness. they are indeed a special family. she is my fathers first cousin and i too was wary when visiting but they are the most amazing ppl you will ever meet.
as for rabbi on abortions, there are some rabbonim who have publicly supported abortions ONLY when there have been a danger to the mother and in the first trimester. otherwise it is a case by case situation. i dont even take that test because either way we will deal with it and love that child.
Let’s see if we can’t push this post over the 100 comment hump. This way, the next time Heshy rolls out the members of this vaunted club he will be forced to confront his shameless exploitation of special children for personal kicks (and page hits). Hopefully he would have matured a tad by then and acknowledge his serious lapse in judgment.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/retarded for those of you who feel the need to not be ignorant. Now Heshy we have met and.I know you thrive on shock value,but despite all that I must insist that you Title this story differently. B’hatzlacha Rabah in all your Future and present endevours.