Imposing Torah law is no harder than imposing the current laws. Obviously, you can’t enforce most laws such as the death penalty without a real beis din, but that doesn’t mean that it should be accepted.

If we have no probelm sending tax evaders and drug dealers to jail, or giving fines for traffic violations, why not impose the same for people that break Torah rules?

In regards to moral equivalence, why is a gay guy any better or worse than one who is incestous? In theory if a guy and his mom are willing, who is to say they are “sicker” than 2 men? For that purpose, who is to say that any hetero’s a morally better than gays?

Simple answer: The Torah.

As far as teens geting married, it really all depends on the society they live in. While it may not be advisable for 13 year old boys to marry 12 year old girls in 2009, it certanly isn’t halachically wrong. If a responsable 25 year old guy or even a 50 year old guy wants to marry a mature 15 year old girl, who’s to say that it’s morally wrong?

Regarding rape in halacha, It’s one of those laws I simply don’t understand, you might want to check with a rabbi. I don’t see how the guys punishment of having to marry his victim helps the victim in any way. Why would she want to be stuck with her attacker?

Aside from that, he does actually have to pay for certan things, such as emabarrassment, pain, doctor fees, etc, just as any other person that causes physical damage to another, as outlined in hilchos nezikin.

As far as what “Hashem thinks”, now mortal can even begin to understand. The same question can be posed to every event, i.e. what was he thinking during the holocaust, or how one who desecrates Shabbos a worse punishment as a murderer, etc.

Phil, thanks for your responses. I disagree with you on several points, including your assertion that (1) Israel should be ruled by the principles of halacha rather than democracy – when Mashiach is in charge, things can be different, but I do not see how we can impose the Torah on individuals (2) the fact that the Torah gives the death penalty for things like necrophilia, bestiality, and homosexuality means that they are all “equal” or that individuals who engage in such behaviors or morally equivalent and (3) the fact that the Torah does not forbid teen-adult relationships means that they are morally “okay,” particularly in a culture where teens are not expected to be fully developed emotionally and ready for adult life.

Another random observation on the point related to assuming moral equivalency based on punishments prescribed in the Torah:

-The Torah does not call rape an “abomination,” nor does it prescribe the death penality. However, I refuse to believe that Hashem thinks that gays are worse people than rapists.

(I imagine that you will counter this argument by saying that no one advocates rape as an “alternative lifestyle.” That does not mean that rape is any “better,” just that society can more clearly understand the observable harm and detriment caused by rape.)

Step back even further. Democracy means not able to have a “Jewish” state.

I’l start by answering your last question first, as it will give you a better perspective of where I’m coming from.

I (and frum Jews) believe in Torah as God given and the absolute truth.

I believe Israel should be run by halachic rule only, as it will be in the time of Moshiach. To have secular courts in Israel that go against the Torah is an abomination.

Now that we’ve established the grounds for how things should be, we can tackle your issues:

The Torah doesn’t differentiate between these types of sins, except for the type of death penalty involved for perptrators that were witnessed and warned. If I remember correctly, gays were stoned, others strangled, etc.

Following these rules, gays would be illegal, anyone transgressing would likely do so in hiding, and would definitely not be parading around in women’s clothing proclaiming their preferences.

As to the relatioship aspect, King David loved Jonathan to the point where their love for each other was considered the epitome of love, and is used in Pirkei Avos as an example of lasting love. Obviously, there was no hanky panky going on there.

The fact that gays might be “in love” or just out for a one night stand is irrelevant when it comes to halacha. Besides, who is anyone to judge which is better or worse? If anything, two men in a relationship is worse than a gay one nighter, because they plan their sins and repeat them often.

If the Torah permits marriage between older and younger people, even under the age of bat mitzvah, who is anyone to dispute it?

Many people of same age marriages get divorced, and many with wide age gaps stay married. What makes Americans that judge legal age as 21, more moral or higher than Canadians that use 18, or African countries where teenage parents are the norm?

Once we throw out the norms defined in the Torah, what makes anything wrong?

Should we now have parades for incest, bestiality, rape and masturbation as well? Once we’re at it, add parades for all categories of sinners, such as people who don’t keep Shabbat, respct their parents, thiefs and murderers.

Bottom line is that gays wrongly think they should get some type of “special” treatment. While some societies accept them, the Torah doesn’t. So naturally, they become offensive to Torah observant Jews when trying to flaunt their deviant sins and lifestyle in the Holy Land.

If it’s the latter, I can understand that bestiality and homosexuality are “similar” in the sense that they are both mentioned in this parsha and both are related to taboo forms of sex.
But as I’ve said, they are very DIFFERENT in that homosexuality is not just about sex, but about developing a relationship with a human being, and is therefore much harder to expect a human being to “control” it. BTW, I am still curious as to your response to this point. I don’t believe you have addressed in any of your posts the fact that homosexuality is not just about sex but relationships.

As for the teenage issue: Do you actually feel that two consenting adults of the same sex is WORSE than an adult being in a relationship with a teenager? Yes, the line between 17 and 18 is unclear. Yes, the Torah does not specifically forbid relationships with teenagers. But I don’t think that making statutory rape illegal and homosexuality legal is a sign of an “up-side-down” society. It’s a sign of a society that’s more concerned with a possibility of direct, observable harm and exploitation and less concerned about the possibility of a form of “spiritual harm” that is far more difficult to observe or believe in, especially if you do not believe in the Torah.

Also, you say pride marches should be “illegal.” On what grounds? Should be abolish the separation between church and state?

No it wasn’t easy, I guess it’s a matter of willpower and how fed up you get with smoking. Key is NEVER to bum one or have a drag, that’s a sure way to start again.

Anyway, as evil as Joe Camel was, I still think he was a cool cartoon character. The fact that they banner him instead of cigarettes is truly ridiculous.

As I and many others find gays (especially flamboyant ones) more offensive than smokers, and definitely more offensive than Joe Camel, I feel that these types of sick parades should be illegal, even more so in the holy city.

People that have bad eyesight get corrective lenses or operations to help them see. They don’t expect the world to triple the size of all print so they don’t have to do that. I expect sexual deviants to correct themselves, not the other way around.

Forbidden relationships (incest, homo, bestiality) and idol worship are the specific sins that cause Jews to be driven out of Israel, Parsha Acharei Mos says so clearly.

SB,

I did smoke for 10 years or so, quit 7 years ago. I’m referring to cigarettes.