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Does wife swapping in the frum community actually exist?

116 comments

wife-swapI was sitting in Baltimore this week when someone brought up some sort of wife swapping ring going on in Pickwick, who told you this was my immediate response, followed with skeptical rants about everyone talking about wife swapping rings without ever having proof.

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard the term “oh that’s the type of place that has wife swapping” whenever someone has disdain for a community and its material practices. It seems that frum wife swapping directly correlates to the material wealth of a community. So Wesley Hills, anywhere in Long Island and parts of North Jersey must have big wife swapping rings.

On other notes, a married women did ask me to have an affair with her recently, and she was wearing a sheitle and had a kid, yes it was very weird, especially when I googled her n ame and came up with her only simchas account for when she had the kid – I was tempted to tell the husband but I let it go (ah the moral dilemmas created by googling someone) I also keep getting phone calls from members of Shaindy.com who think I run their website (my internet phone number gets messages from these people all the time – if anyone knows how to set up a recording please tell me)

But as for wife swapping en masse, I have yet to meet anyone that does this or knows anyone that does this. I think its just one of those things that people “hear of” from someone that heard it somewhere else, just fodder for the shabbos table and to make frum life more interesting.

  • Kesef Kal

    Isn’t cheating an issur de oraysah and an issur derabonon?

    • jason

      u think anyone really cares ? any wifes want a nice guy hit me up

  • Wesley Hills

    I live in Wesley Hills and have never heard of such a thing…of course, if you do confirm it does exist please add my name to the registration list ;-)

  • Anonymous

    I’ve lived in Pickwick for the past 4 years and have never heard of this going on here. I have heard of stories from NY, but nothing ever confirmed.

  • Long Islander

    It exists, its awesome,

    jk.

  • The Real Wesley Hills

    You obviously live on the wrong end of WH… There have been close to 15 broken marriages already caused by swapping and/or cheating. Just go to Young Israel (both in Forshay & WH), Rudinsky’s shul and ask around… there are lots of juicy stories to be heard.

  • dodab13

    in my home town there are two couples who are getting divorced now and remarrying the other’s spouse.I guess they dont want to live in sin anymore

  • Anonymous

    @The Real Wesley Hills please share some of these Juicy stories and whether you have heard them firsthand from the individuals involved or also, just from a friend of a friend etc

  • Seth W

    So my question: Is shaindy.com real? Or is it a joke?

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    Shaindy.com is real, but chances are the person who runs it is the same person behind tefillin date, their traffic rankings are very low – it costs 3 bucks a month and the sex stories on the site were all written by 15 year old yeshiva guys. The site has worse spelling and grammar than mine and that’s a big deal

  • heshy just wants some good stories

    can you set me up with that woman please? ive always wanted to bang a married chick

  • The Real Wesley Hills

    One of the latest casualties… LS & MS from Dutch Village area… if you know who I’m referring to then great, if not, inquire.

  • Been there, Done that

    The frum swinging world is an unfortunate, but very real problem. The question we should be addressing is: Is it a positive thing to expose such behavior in the open world? Frum people are just as human as everybody else, but their sins echo a thousand times more loudly. Just a few crazies can destroy the reputation of an entire people.

    The frum lifestyle is not an easy one. With the intense restrictions and standards we set for ourselves, there becomes more and more of a need for *some* to find an outlet, an escape. What safer than an uninhibited world of sexual pleasure shared with people who are sworn to absolute secrecy for the same reasons you are?

    The real problem is that this is more than a small group, or an isolated incident. We all know of websites, blog sites, and yahoo group sites dedicated to bringing about a more sexually free frum world. I, personally, pray that they continue to keep their world hidden. It’s when people begin to feel that it’s ok, that their behaviors should be acceptable, etc. that we’re in big trouble.

  • http://only-for-stockers.xanga.com/ bitterwater

    Ive heard of a similar case in West Hempsted, but it was with two lesbian women who are trying to recruit more females.

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  • Anonymous

    Apparently in the 5 Towns there’s a group of wives who get together while their husbands are at work (usually with their husband’s knowledge) to hook up with each other, not sure if that’s the traditional definition of “wife swapping” though.

  • former baltimorean

    People are people, regardless of their race or religion. Sex is a basic human drive and instinct, and therefore, yes, wife swapping does exist in the frum community. In addition, contrary to some of the previous comments, it is not only confined to the more upscale and MO communities, it also occurs in the right winged yeshivish and chassidish communities. And while I will not name names of any Chassidic groups, I have heard some crazy stories from a very credible source of group vacations to Miami in the winter, where the level of sharing that took place would cause the preschool teachers of these individuals to blush in pride!!!

  • jelen

    bitter, are you serious? recruiting lesbians? that’s like a black person going around town trying to get white people to “join their club.” both comically ignorant and tragic.

  • Anonymous

    Link to find tefilin please.

  • Anonymous

    It happens in frum communities everywhere. It’s been going on in parts of Toronto for some time now.

    • Anonymous

      Really? Where in Toronto?

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    This has been going on since thousands of years. Exactly why the Torah forbids a man to take back a wife he divorces once she’s been with another guy, otherwise people would be setting up this kind of arrangement more often.

    I don’t know any Jewish swingers, though one of the goyim I worked with and his wife were active swingers. He used to tell me about his perverted life/wife all the time, swore that watching someone else do his wife was the biggest turn on. I was always afraid to shake his hand if I didn’t see him wash it first…

  • Ben Shalom

    Shouldn’t you be fishing Phil?

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Getting there. 2 outings planned this week, then I’ll be up in the mountains on a lake with my dad and kids all of next week. Know anyone that wants to go carping, send them my way.

  • sadlife

    This totally happens in brooklyn and long island, I can verify. very very sad but true. I tried this lifestyle, and these “frum” yeshivish guys are crazy

  • this assinine post is simply to get people to read his SH1t

    FRUMSATIRE just makes the Rabbim sin. He likes to put trashy thoughts in poeple’s minds.

    Isnt it hard enough to fight that yetzer Harah without reading this sh1t and filling our minds with “new” thoughts?

    Everyone would love to have sex with other people’s wives, but we are who we are – JEW WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO ABIDE BY THE TORAH – and not read this utter sh1t.

    Heshy – I seriously hope g-d doesn’t really give it to you. YOU ARE A PUBLIC SINNER AND CAUSING OTHES TO SIN WHEN YOU WRITE THIS CRAP!

    LIFE IS NOT ABOUT HITS TO YOUR “WEBSITE”

    YOU THINK AFTER 120 G-d will say “Heshy – you had a great website!. Its heaven for you”.

    Please stop this shhhhhhit!!!!!!!

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    sadlife, how do you mean? surely the potential interpersonal drama generated by spouse-swapping isn’t unique to those living an otherwise observant lifestyle. Is there something frum guy-specific to which you were referring?

  • Good Chassidishe Girl

    For women it’s a d’oraysa. For men, d’rabbanon – although in other communities it may be mutar.

    I think that publishing something like this is loshon hora about frum yidden. “Here we go… another person with their educated self-righteous opinion commenting on blogs.” Oh-s0-hackneyed. I just think why not be positive. Yechi Hamelech.

  • Good Chassidishe Girl

    For women it’s a d’oraysa. For men, d’rabbanon – although in other communities it may be mutar.

    I think that publishing something like this is loshon hora about frum yidden. “Here we go… another person with their painful self-righteous opinion commenting on blogs.” Yes: Oh-so-hackneyed. But I just think why not be positive, where possible? Yechi Hamelech.

  • Good Chassidishe Girl

    I did not mean to put that twice. The more recent is the intended. Moshiach now.

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Former baltimorean,

    Who were their preschool teachers, Dr. Ruth &? Sue Johannson?

  • http://only-for-stockers.xanga.com/ bitterwater

    bitter, are you serious? recruiting lesbians? that’s like a black person going around town trying to get white people to “join their club.” both comically ignorant and tragic.

    Well yea… apparently from what I’ve heard their little club made a number of women divorce their husbands for their new found lesbian love. I’ve seen these two women and I know one of the women’s son who is tragically hurt by it.

  • Chicago Reader

    I’ve heard about it in Chicago, as well.
    Funny, I can’t even seem to deal with the woman I live with (wife). I can’t imagine having to deal with another woman.

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Chicago reader,

    For some reason, I don’t think they keep them after the swap. I believe it’s temporary, more like borrowing. Again, I’m assuming all this, I might be wrong.

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Bitterwater,

    I don’t think that qualifies as “swapping”. You might want to run this by Sergeant J, our in house glbt expert for further analysis.

  • Anon

    Oy, if this exists, it is so evil — Hashem help us! Not only are they committing adultery, but encouraging their spouses to do so — and think it’s good! What else could be so evil? This isn’t just the yetzer, it’s the yetzer on steroids, backed up by some stupid anti-Torah sexual liberation ideology. Where is their emunah? Read Garden of Peace by Rav Shalom Arush and listen to the CD No One But Him.

    Heshy, you have influence. You’re not so cool that you can’t use your influence for good. If you take your work and infuse it with a passion for holiness and tshuvah, it could be just as funny and relevant — and inspire people too.

    • MadMaxInJerusalem

      You don’t understand the people who do this. There are allot of people who live a frum lifestyle for various reasons, but don’t believe in it *at all*. In the Tel-Aviv / Bnai Brak area there is a whole movement / social club called the Anusim Chadashim composed of people who are publicly Charadie but privately secular.

  • Rabbi

    thwere are alot of miconceptions hear regarding the halacha so let me clarify. It is assur d’oraysa for BOTH A MAN AND A WOMAN to sleep with each othr if the women is married to someone else. It is called “aishes ish”. I dont know where “good chasidashs girl” got her knowledge form. Also, once a married women sleeps with another guy she is “assur l’abal ul’iboyil” That means that she cannot stay married to her husband or marry the guy she slept with. That is “D’oraysa”.
    It’s assur m’dirabbonim for a man to have 2 wifes in the ashkenazic community. It is also illegal in America. It’s called polygamy.
    It is assur D’oraysa for a women to have two husbands.

  • very sad

    I don’t know about hsjhfhfh jhdgxd aswap

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Rabbi,

    Frum people that are in to this sort of thing don’t care about halacha, I can’t see how they can view themselves as frum either, it is a fundamental law and part of aseres hadibros.

    That being said, what happens if they decide to do teshuva? Are they obligated to get divorced?

    • frum swinger

      my wife and i just started to try this and i do care about the halachah to a certain extent – we just make sure nobody is boel her and i am not boel any eishes ish (although i havent had an opportunity with a penuyah either). there is plenty of other stuff to do other than beilah – v’hameivin yavin. yes, everything else is a lav, but we might incorporate some BDSM to get the malkos we need for those lavim…

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    Phil maybe we can make a wife swapping gemach???

  • anon for this

    Actually, the only practice mentioned here that might not be halachically prohibited is that of married women hooking up with each other.

    • MadMaxInJerusalem

      It’s a minor derabanan issur based on the idea that it’s Maaseh Mitzriyim ( an Egyptian Practice ). Basically it’s recommended that you beat your wife if you catch her doing this, but you don’t have to.

      • Anonymous

        i am pretty sure it is a lav d’oraisa

    • Anonymous

      Why is that?

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Hesh,

    Maybe an ex-wife gemach. Damn good way to make some serious $$$. Only problem is that Jewish women tend too talk too much and the men would only use the service is discretion was guaranteed. Anyway, it’s illegal in most states if you plan to charge for the service. Reminds me of Heidi Fleiss.

    Anon, married/unmarried women with each other is out too, drabanan.

  • ALTA COCKER

    Anyone want to swap for my 63 year old size 22 wife? What do you have to offer?

  • I’M A MAVEN

    I’m looking to swap a 1974 Hungarian redhead, low miles, some front and rear body damage and creases all around for a 1980 or newer model. She’s full size and I’d prefer a compact or subcompact that I can fit into.

  • OUT OF TOWNER

    We’re looking to move back to the city. Can anyone suggest communities where we can find this kind of activity where they’d be accepting of newcomers?

  • The Real Wesley Hills

    A famous case in Forshay was SF & TF were married and SF screwed (many times) his wife’s best friend who was also their next door neighbor. Both couples got divorced. SF then married the now ex-best friend, and moved to Pomona. TF is still a single mother with a $$Sugar Daddy$$ who’s married.

  • Lolwut?

    Is this still a doaraysah if you do it with non jews?

  • http://hewhofightsmonsters.blogspot.com/ He Who Fights Monsters

    D’Rabbanan, technically speaking, if you have sex with a non-Jew.

    But let’s keep it within the family, shall we?

    • MadMaxInJerusalem

      D’oriyta according to Rambam.

  • anon for this

    Phil, thanks for the correction. One difference though is that a married woman who sleeps with a man other than her husband is not allowed (it is m’daroysa & may be an issur karais) to sleep with her husband again. I doubt this is the case if she sleeps with a woman.

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Anon,

    No their actions aren’t considred “the act”, so they would still be allowed to stay with the husband. Still, Rambam cautions men to keep their wives away from lesbians.

  • Anonymous

    Its absolutly disgusting and i think that it chiav kores

  • http://religious-pervert.blogspot.com/ ReligiousPerv

    It’s only “Swapping” if all the spouses are aware of and/or participate in the encounters. Most people who swap are comfortable with the situation. Cheating is when the spouses are not aware of the transgression. I know of cheating spouses in Pickwick. But, I’m not sure of Swapping!

  • ——————-

    Lesbians are hot to watch though!!!

  • EYES FOR YOUR WIFE

    I’ve got a young 300 lb wife, I’d like to swap for 2 or 3 thinner (size 2) women. Anyone interested? Brooklyn only

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Perv,

    Checked out you blog, you really are a perv. Anyway, I can’t imagine what swingers see in that lifestyle, especially frum ones.

    How a couple that can even pretend to be frum after willingly participating in that sort of thing as a couple is something I dont understand, unless they are just pretending to be frum to keep each other’s fantasies going.

  • http://religious-pervert.blogspot.com/ ReligiousPerv

    Phil,

    I’m fully aware of my issues, thanks!
    Believe it or not, but, I’ve heard of and met frum guys (and girls) 1000x more perverted than myself. Its a Toeyvah!

  • Low Profile

    The Real Wesley Hills, re TF and SF. I know them both very well. The ex-best-friend-now-wife was not their next door neighbor. They lived around the corner from each other. Get your facts straight. ;)

  • Sneaky Pete

    The Real Wesley Hills, re TF and SF: Who are or were you friends with that was friends with them? It seems your facts are not 100% straight as you left out the 5+ sugar daddies before this one! Also, although he probably did “screw” the best friend, you left out the numerous “screws” she engaged in to get even.

  • THINKING ABOT MONSEY

    If I’d only known what a swining place Monsey was, I would have moved there. Is swapping the norm up there?

  • Rabbi

    phil,

    yes even if they do teshuvah they arfe obligated to get divorced.

    • Anonymous

      not so simple – some say if he used a condom it is not a beilah (but the Maharsham discounts this) – the general heter is that a wife is not believed if she says she did it because she is pasul l’eidus so l’maaseh we allow a couple to stay together even if the woman claims she slept with another man – the bigger question is what if the husband watched?

  • Chitown dude

    I have never heard of any wife swapping in Chicago.

  • The Real Wesley Hills

    Low Profile & Sneaky Pete:

    I know the story first hand, I spent many hours in their house… by the way, around the corner is the same as next door in Monsey/Forshay… you obviously don’t live here long enough… the multiple sugar daddies & the revenge screws was just icing on the cake.

  • I hope…

    …that the servers hosting this shit site gets closed down.

    I mean, what exactly is accomplished besides dirt talk and lashon hara?

    Hesy Fried – you are a piece of shit—— unless you repent and stop this sickness.

    • Judge Yourself

      Why dont you just worry about yourselves. This is the problem with the Jewish community and why so many people are turned off by Orthodoxy. Stop intermeddling into the privacy of other peoples home’s and worry about your lives and your own wives and husbands. Stop telling people what punishments they “deserve” for their actions and judge yourself. You’re clearly here reading this “shit” because you’re interested in it yourself. Its people like you who read every single post then say how disgusting it is, because you’re interested in it too. Maybe you should self-reflect and think about why you’re here. Maybe you should go “repent” for judging someone who posted an article that you dont need to read. Mind your own business and quite frankly, get a life.

  • chevramaidel

    Anyone know where I can swap my husband for a wife?

  • Low Profile

    The Real Wesley Hills. Now I’m just curious about who you are, we probably know each other. ;)

  • Wanna trade

    To all you swappers – I’ll give you my 50 year old wife for 2 20’s. Any takers

  • The Real Wesley Hills

    LP: perhaps we do… we may even be screwing each other’s wives, I guess we’ll wait and see! ;-)

  • Low Profile

    LOL TRWH!! If I were screwing your wife it would make for a far more interesting story since I am a woman, but hey, if she’s into that sort of thing…

  • kissmei’mshomer

    I’ve always wondered why people refer to “wife swapping” and never “husband swapping.”
    It’s one thing for a couple to mutually decide that they would like to have other partners, but it’s quite another thing to view women as interchangeable sex toys.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    If nor for interchangeable sex toys what else can women do? Wait they are incubators as well.

  • kissmei’mshomer

    And cooks and maids, I suppose.

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    la la la :)

  • BiggestFish

    Hey Heshy, thanks for posting this. It is something to be aware of that goes on in our society. After all, if we know our enemy we can defend against him.
    2nd, I learned some halachos today. Could anybody explain why sex with a goy is assur, I would like more details.

    • Anonymous

      if she worships idols it is an issur kareis – other than that it is hard to find an issur against it but the Rambam still says one shouldnt do it

  • Max

    When did Frum Satire turn into Calm Kallahs?

  • The Real Wesley Hills

    LP: Now I’ve got a real hard on… I always told my wife she’s more then welcome to bring a chick home as long as she lets me watch… and then jump in!

  • NewHempsteadReader

    Recently a group of Monsey Rabbis, acting as a bais din, called in a women who was having multiple affairs. They told her to stop. Her reaction? “It takes 2 to tangle, why don’t you call the men in?”. The Rabbi who told me the story said “she’s got a point”

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    The men are just as guilty. Once upon a time they would both be liable to capital punishment.

    If adultresses wan’t to whore around, why bother getting / staying married?

    As for swingers, they are a bunch of pervs and have no place in the frum world (my humble opinion).

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    phil, if they weren’t married, they couldn’t be adulteresses. :lol:

  • saddened

    SF, TF, all the F families, from Forshay, or Park, or Central Monsey, this is just too sad to read about.

    (is this stuff really true? Now I’m thinking about all the F’s I know who got divorced)

  • jenny

    Hell ya it does!

    My husband and I are proof of that.

    Too bad for all you singles out there. Not knowing when the next time you’re going to get some. Ha!

  • ms

    First I’m also curious if sex with a nonjew is really assur, second (I am a woman) a while ago on fbook a guy who wasn’t using some weird name, who apparantly was from lakewood and married with 3 kids, wanted to meet me in a hotel room without exchanging names etc..he said heis wife doesn’t like sex..wtf???…people are seriously crazy!

  • ghottistyx

    and they say Jewish girls give good head. WHERE ARE THESE JEWISH GIRLS? People ask me if it’s true that Jewish girls give good head, I sadly have to say that I wouldn’t know. I’m with Larry David when he said that the dumbest thing Bill Clinton did was thinking that he could just get head from a Jewish girl (yes, Monica was Jewish) with no consequences. In my experience, most of the Jewish girls I’ve been with would sooner join a convent than give a man head.

  • my sister dated hesh

    I can confirm that there is wife swapping in Chicago. It started with rumors then after a while names started popping up as well. mi kamcha yisroel

  • http://religious-pervert.blogspot.com/ ReligiousPerv

    Re: Jenny

    Are you in B-more/Pickwick?
    If so, I go to Bmore all the time and would love to make your acquaintance!

  • 6 inches

    a lady asked her hair stylist what to do about her husband dandruff, she told her to give him head and shoulder. she replied, I know how to give head, how do you give shoulder.

    btw mowser sucks. I hate coming here from my pda

  • ghottistyx

    One time, a married man was terminally ill. His wife went to the doctor to ask if there’s anything she could do. The doctor said “your husband is about to die a very slow, painful death. There is only one known cure: you must give him really good head. Otherwise it’s slow and painful death for him”.

    The wife got home. The husband asked “well, what did the doctor say?” The wife replied “you’re gonna die, and there’s nothing either of us can do about it!”

  • http://welcomebalance.blogspot.com s(b.)

    ghottistyx, it reads like you’ve dated the wrong girls.

  • Hornball

    ghottistyx, the chick in the story musta been Jewish…

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com/ Phils Wife

    There is more than one fisherman in this family. Carping is code.

  • ghottistyx

    @hornball: yes, in most versions of the joke, the couple is Jewish. However, I can assure you that there is a stigma amongst women in general about giving head, especially once they’re married. I’ll stop here before I get too offensive.

    @s(b), indeed my dating life sounds like something out of a Rodney Dangerfield routine.

  • Anonymous

    a married jewish lady a d’rrasu or rabbanan??

  • Anonymous

    is it eishes ish also?

  • Tyler Durden

    Wow. The shit that goes down on this website…

  • http://religious-pervert.blogspot.com/ ReligiousPerv

    Frumsatire,

    I think, was propositioned by the same woman! I had an experience that was, pretty much, the exact same!

  • Rhody

    BitterWater…Real lesbians do not have recruitment drives…I have been dating a married Orthodox Jewish woman for 2 yrs and blame her upbringing for her decisions to marry lest she disappoint her parents..How sad to have told her future husband she was attracted to women and he still married her saying its just a phase, how desparate must he have been to marry a woman full well knowing she was a lesbian…Noone chooses to be Gay, we are born that way and all the religion in the world is going to change what we are..I will continue to love my Orthodox Jewish married lesbian and support her the best i can until she is no longer afraid of what her manipulative controlling husband “THAT KNEW” might do

  • Anonymous

    Ha

  • Anonymous

    What’s the interest rate on an orthodox swap? Can we get a better rate if the couple is not orthodox?

    ha ha

  • frumhockster

    the world is a screwed up place

  • MadMaxInJerusalem

    Everything mentioned here is a d’oriyta prohibition, except lesbianism which is a Rabbinic prohibition. Rambam says in the M.T. that it’s forbidden because it’s “Ma’aseh Mitzrayim”, i.e. it was a practice of the Egyptians. If you catch you’re wife doing it, you get to slap her around, but I don’t remember if you’re allowed to divorce her without paying her ketubah or not. If you want to look it up the term is M’solelet – literally diver. Same root as used for a submarine in modern Hebrew. Machon Mamre is a good place to look stuff up, they have the entire M.T. in both vowelized Hebrew and in English translation.

    For the person who asked why sex with a goy is asur – the isur listed by Rambam as one of the 613 d’oriyta commandments.

    For MS, a woman is required to give her husband as much sex as he needs, in any way he wants it, specifically so he won’t be tempted to go outside the marriage and do things that are assur. By the way, this goes both ways – satisfy each other’s yetzer hara inside the context of marriage so that neither of the spouses are tempted to sin outside the marriage.

    P.S. Rhody: It’s very doubtful that any more than a tiny percentage of gays are born that way, natural selection would eliminate them from the gene pool very quickly. As ancient Greece shows, it’s primarily a cultural thing.

  • justajew

    MadMaxInJerusalem –

    I disagree with your point about gays being eliminated via natural selection. I’m not a geneticist, but there are obviously many DNA-related aberrations or errors that occur during development and beyond – sickle-cell, Downs, many forms of cancer, even near- & far-sightedness. Millions of years of natural selection has obviously not weeded out these errors, as they are not necessarily passed down in our DNA, rather, they are random occurrances that will happen forever unless we manually intervene.

    Perhaps someone with a medical background can shed some light.

  • MadMaxInJerusalem

    justajew: Your argument could be valid if you’re consistent with it. First, all the examples you site are heritable traits, except for downs, and none of them precludes reproduction, except downs ( usually, but not always ).

    The two arguments you could make in favor of HS being inborn and not by choice are:

    1. That it’s genetic and the result of random mutation
    2. That it’s not genetic but a result of environmental pollutants affecting the individuals development ( hormones, or other compound which make their way into the food chain ).

    The problem I have with point one is that if it’s the result of genetic mutation then it’s heritable, and those HS who reproduce do so without the trait being passed on to their children. I personally have family where the man decided after 20 years of marriage and two kids that he was HS. Neither child is HS, nor are any of the grandkids to my knowledge. My understanding is that this is typical. So in my mind this mostly rules out the genetic argument.

    Now point two may be very applicable in our day, and I think may have some validity in a small number of cases. Point one may as well.

    However, the ancient Greek debates on this subject – and this practice was very widespread in ancient Greece – convinces me that in the vast majority of cases HS is the result of personal choices and social / environmental factors.

    Take this for instance:

    Protogenes, one of the youth’s suitors, begins the debate by stating flatly that “genuine Love has no connexion whatsoever with the women’s quarters.” Women are necessary for producing children, he says, but it is impossible for a man to feel more than sexual appetite for a woman, since his attraction to her is based purely on physical beauty. By contrast, a man who falls in love with a boy is interested in the boy’s character and virtue.

    or this:

    Lycinus, whose equal interest in women and boys is probably meant to represent the tastes of the average Greek, does his best to find a middle ground between these two views, but he is clearly more moved by Callicratidas’ argument. “Marriage is a boon and blessing to men when it meets with good fortune,” he concludes in judgment, “while the love of boys, that pays court to the hallowed dues of friendship, I consider to be the privilege of philosophy. Therefore all men should marry, but let only the wise be permitted to love boys, for perfect virtue grows least of all among women.”

    These clearly indicate that in ancient Greece HS behavior was considered a socially acceptable conscious choice for men who were physically attracted to women.

  • justajew

    1. That it’s genetic and the result of random mutation
    2. That it’s not genetic but a result of environmental pollutants affecting the individuals development ( hormones, or other compound which make their way into the food chain ).

    The current understanding of hetero- and homosexuality is that we all exist on a spectrum, and there is a tendency for some to lean more in the HS side than hetero. Therefore, I think both of the above arguments are correct. There is a random mutation/genetic abnormality that gives some people a greater tendency to be homosexual. Whether they act upon that tendency at age 12 or age 50, after 30 years of marriage, is irrelevant.

    Greek society actively encouraged HS behavior, so those on any part of the spectrum (except those who were completely repulsed by it, I guess) were encouraged.

    My understanding is that this is typical.
    I never stated that HS was passed down genetically, but if it’s truly a genetic mutation then I guess it would. Since the vast majority of practicing HS “came out” much earlier – the ones that I know tell me that they were fully aware of their sexuality in their early to mid teens – and do not have genetic children, I don’t know if there’s enough information to know this for certain.