I was sitting in Baltimore this week when someone brought up some sort of wife swapping ring going on in Pickwick, who told you this was my immediate response, followed with skeptical rants about everyone talking about wife swapping rings without ever having proof.
I cannot tell you how many times I have heard the term “oh that’s the type of place that has wife swapping” whenever someone has disdain for a community and its material practices. It seems that frum wife swapping directly correlates to the material wealth of a community. So Wesley Hills, anywhere in Long Island and parts of North Jersey must have big wife swapping rings.
On other notes, a married women did ask me to have an affair with her recently, and she was wearing a sheitle and had a kid, yes it was very weird, especially when I googled her n ame and came up with her only simchas account for when she had the kid – I was tempted to tell the husband but I let it go (ah the moral dilemmas created by googling someone) I also keep getting phone calls from members of Shaindy.com who think I run their website (my internet phone number gets messages from these people all the time – if anyone knows how to set up a recording please tell me)
But as for wife swapping en masse, I have yet to meet anyone that does this or knows anyone that does this. I think its just one of those things that people “hear of” from someone that heard it somewhere else, just fodder for the shabbos table and to make frum life more interesting.
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Isn’t cheating an issur de oraysah and an issur derabonon?
I live in Wesley Hills and have never heard of such a thing…of course, if you do confirm it does exist please add my name to the registration list
I’ve lived in Pickwick for the past 4 years and have never heard of this going on here. I have heard of stories from NY, but nothing ever confirmed.
It exists, its awesome,
jk.
You obviously live on the wrong end of WH… There have been close to 15 broken marriages already caused by swapping and/or cheating. Just go to Young Israel (both in Forshay & WH), Rudinsky’s shul and ask around… there are lots of juicy stories to be heard.
in my home town there are two couples who are getting divorced now and remarrying the other’s spouse.I guess they dont want to live in sin anymore
@The Real Wesley Hills please share some of these Juicy stories and whether you have heard them firsthand from the individuals involved or also, just from a friend of a friend etc
So my question: Is shaindy.com real? Or is it a joke?
Shaindy.com is real, but chances are the person who runs it is the same person behind tefillin date, their traffic rankings are very low – it costs 3 bucks a month and the sex stories on the site were all written by 15 year old yeshiva guys. The site has worse spelling and grammar than mine and that’s a big deal
can you set me up with that woman please? ive always wanted to bang a married chick
One of the latest casualties… LS & MS from Dutch Village area… if you know who I’m referring to then great, if not, inquire.
The frum swinging world is an unfortunate, but very real problem. The question we should be addressing is: Is it a positive thing to expose such behavior in the open world? Frum people are just as human as everybody else, but their sins echo a thousand times more loudly. Just a few crazies can destroy the reputation of an entire people.
The frum lifestyle is not an easy one. With the intense restrictions and standards we set for ourselves, there becomes more and more of a need for *some* to find an outlet, an escape. What safer than an uninhibited world of sexual pleasure shared with people who are sworn to absolute secrecy for the same reasons you are?
The real problem is that this is more than a small group, or an isolated incident. We all know of websites, blog sites, and yahoo group sites dedicated to bringing about a more sexually free frum world. I, personally, pray that they continue to keep their world hidden. It’s when people begin to feel that it’s ok, that their behaviors should be acceptable, etc. that we’re in big trouble.
Ive heard of a similar case in West Hempsted, but it was with two lesbian women who are trying to recruit more females.
Apparently in the 5 Towns there’s a group of wives who get together while their husbands are at work (usually with their husband’s knowledge) to hook up with each other, not sure if that’s the traditional definition of “wife swapping” though.
People are people, regardless of their race or religion. Sex is a basic human drive and instinct, and therefore, yes, wife swapping does exist in the frum community. In addition, contrary to some of the previous comments, it is not only confined to the more upscale and MO communities, it also occurs in the right winged yeshivish and chassidish communities. And while I will not name names of any Chassidic groups, I have heard some crazy stories from a very credible source of group vacations to Miami in the winter, where the level of sharing that took place would cause the preschool teachers of these individuals to blush in pride!!!
bitter, are you serious? recruiting lesbians? that’s like a black person going around town trying to get white people to “join their club.” both comically ignorant and tragic.
Link to find tefilin please.
It happens in frum communities everywhere. It’s been going on in parts of Toronto for some time now.
This has been going on since thousands of years. Exactly why the Torah forbids a man to take back a wife he divorces once she’s been with another guy, otherwise people would be setting up this kind of arrangement more often.
I don’t know any Jewish swingers, though one of the goyim I worked with and his wife were active swingers. He used to tell me about his perverted life/wife all the time, swore that watching someone else do his wife was the biggest turn on. I was always afraid to shake his hand if I didn’t see him wash it first…
Shouldn’t you be fishing Phil?
Getting there. 2 outings planned this week, then I’ll be up in the mountains on a lake with my dad and kids all of next week. Know anyone that wants to go carping, send them my way.
This totally happens in brooklyn and long island, I can verify. very very sad but true. I tried this lifestyle, and these “frum” yeshivish guys are crazy
FRUMSATIRE just makes the Rabbim sin. He likes to put trashy thoughts in poeple’s minds.
Isnt it hard enough to fight that yetzer Harah without reading this sh1t and filling our minds with “new” thoughts?
Everyone would love to have sex with other people’s wives, but we are who we are – JEW WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO ABIDE BY THE TORAH – and not read this utter sh1t.
Heshy – I seriously hope g-d doesn’t really give it to you. YOU ARE A PUBLIC SINNER AND CAUSING OTHES TO SIN WHEN YOU WRITE THIS CRAP!
LIFE IS NOT ABOUT HITS TO YOUR “WEBSITE”
YOU THINK AFTER 120 G-d will say “Heshy – you had a great website!. Its heaven for you”.
Please stop this shhhhhhit!!!!!!!
sadlife, how do you mean? surely the potential interpersonal drama generated by spouse-swapping isn’t unique to those living an otherwise observant lifestyle. Is there something frum guy-specific to which you were referring?
For women it’s a d’oraysa. For men, d’rabbanon – although in other communities it may be mutar.
I think that publishing something like this is loshon hora about frum yidden. “Here we go… another person with their educated self-righteous opinion commenting on blogs.” Oh-s0-hackneyed. I just think why not be positive. Yechi Hamelech.
For women it’s a d’oraysa. For men, d’rabbanon – although in other communities it may be mutar.
I think that publishing something like this is loshon hora about frum yidden. “Here we go… another person with their painful self-righteous opinion commenting on blogs.” Yes: Oh-so-hackneyed. But I just think why not be positive, where possible? Yechi Hamelech.
I did not mean to put that twice. The more recent is the intended. Moshiach now.
Former baltimorean,
Who were their preschool teachers, Dr. Ruth &? Sue Johannson?
bitter, are you serious? recruiting lesbians? that’s like a black person going around town trying to get white people to “join their club.” both comically ignorant and tragic.
Well yea… apparently from what I’ve heard their little club made a number of women divorce their husbands for their new found lesbian love. I’ve seen these two women and I know one of the women’s son who is tragically hurt by it.
I’ve heard about it in Chicago, as well.
Funny, I can’t even seem to deal with the woman I live with (wife). I can’t imagine having to deal with another woman.
Chicago reader,
For some reason, I don’t think they keep them after the swap. I believe it’s temporary, more like borrowing. Again, I’m assuming all this, I might be wrong.
Bitterwater,
I don’t think that qualifies as “swapping”. You might want to run this by Sergeant J, our in house glbt expert for further analysis.
Oy, if this exists, it is so evil — Hashem help us! Not only are they committing adultery, but encouraging their spouses to do so — and think it’s good! What else could be so evil? This isn’t just the yetzer, it’s the yetzer on steroids, backed up by some stupid anti-Torah sexual liberation ideology. Where is their emunah? Read Garden of Peace by Rav Shalom Arush and listen to the CD No One But Him.
Heshy, you have influence. You’re not so cool that you can’t use your influence for good. If you take your work and infuse it with a passion for holiness and tshuvah, it could be just as funny and relevant — and inspire people too.
thwere are alot of miconceptions hear regarding the halacha so let me clarify. It is assur d’oraysa for BOTH A MAN AND A WOMAN to sleep with each othr if the women is married to someone else. It is called “aishes ish”. I dont know where “good chasidashs girl” got her knowledge form. Also, once a married women sleeps with another guy she is “assur l’abal ul’iboyil” That means that she cannot stay married to her husband or marry the guy she slept with. That is “D’oraysa”.
It’s assur m’dirabbonim for a man to have 2 wifes in the ashkenazic community. It is also illegal in America. It’s called polygamy.
It is assur D’oraysa for a women to have two husbands.
I don’t know about hsjhfhfh jhdgxd aswap
Rabbi,
Frum people that are in to this sort of thing don’t care about halacha, I can’t see how they can view themselves as frum either, it is a fundamental law and part of aseres hadibros.
That being said, what happens if they decide to do teshuva? Are they obligated to get divorced?
Phil maybe we can make a wife swapping gemach???
Actually, the only practice mentioned here that might not be halachically prohibited is that of married women hooking up with each other.
Hesh,
Maybe an ex-wife gemach. Damn good way to make some serious $$$. Only problem is that Jewish women tend too talk too much and the men would only use the service is discretion was guaranteed. Anyway, it’s illegal in most states if you plan to charge for the service. Reminds me of Heidi Fleiss.
Anon, married/unmarried women with each other is out too, drabanan.
Anyone want to swap for my 63 year old size 22 wife? What do you have to offer?
I’m looking to swap a 1974 Hungarian redhead, low miles, some front and rear body damage and creases all around for a 1980 or newer model. She’s full size and I’d prefer a compact or subcompact that I can fit into.
We’re looking to move back to the city. Can anyone suggest communities where we can find this kind of activity where they’d be accepting of newcomers?
A famous case in Forshay was SF & TF were married and SF screwed (many times) his wife’s best friend who was also their next door neighbor. Both couples got divorced. SF then married the now ex-best friend, and moved to Pomona. TF is still a single mother with a $$Sugar Daddy$$ who’s married.
Is this still a doaraysah if you do it with non jews?
D’Rabbanan, technically speaking, if you have sex with a non-Jew.
But let’s keep it within the family, shall we?
Phil, thanks for the correction. One difference though is that a married woman who sleeps with a man other than her husband is not allowed (it is m’daroysa & may be an issur karais) to sleep with her husband again. I doubt this is the case if she sleeps with a woman.
Anon,
No their actions aren’t considred “the act”, so they would still be allowed to stay with the husband. Still, Rambam cautions men to keep their wives away from lesbians.
Its absolutly disgusting and i think that it chiav kores
It’s only “Swapping” if all the spouses are aware of and/or participate in the encounters. Most people who swap are comfortable with the situation. Cheating is when the spouses are not aware of the transgression. I know of cheating spouses in Pickwick. But, I’m not sure of Swapping!
Lesbians are hot to watch though!!!
I’ve got a young 300 lb wife, I’d like to swap for 2 or 3 thinner (size 2) women. Anyone interested? Brooklyn only
Perv,
Checked out you blog, you really are a perv. Anyway, I can’t imagine what swingers see in that lifestyle, especially frum ones.
How a couple that can even pretend to be frum after willingly participating in that sort of thing as a couple is something I dont understand, unless they are just pretending to be frum to keep each other’s fantasies going.
Phil,
I’m fully aware of my issues, thanks!
Believe it or not, but, I’ve heard of and met frum guys (and girls) 1000x more perverted than myself. Its a Toeyvah!
The Real Wesley Hills, re TF and SF. I know them both very well. The ex-best-friend-now-wife was not their next door neighbor. They lived around the corner from each other. Get your facts straight.
The Real Wesley Hills, re TF and SF: Who are or were you friends with that was friends with them? It seems your facts are not 100% straight as you left out the 5+ sugar daddies before this one! Also, although he probably did “screw” the best friend, you left out the numerous “screws” she engaged in to get even.
If I’d only known what a swining place Monsey was, I would have moved there. Is swapping the norm up there?
phil,
yes even if they do teshuvah they arfe obligated to get divorced.
I have never heard of any wife swapping in Chicago.
Low Profile & Sneaky Pete:
I know the story first hand, I spent many hours in their house… by the way, around the corner is the same as next door in Monsey/Forshay… you obviously don’t live here long enough… the multiple sugar daddies & the revenge screws was just icing on the cake.
…that the servers hosting this shit site gets closed down.
I mean, what exactly is accomplished besides dirt talk and lashon hara?
Hesy Fried – you are a piece of shit—— unless you repent and stop this sickness.
Anyone know where I can swap my husband for a wife?
The Real Wesley Hills. Now I’m just curious about who you are, we probably know each other.
To all you swappers – I’ll give you my 50 year old wife for 2 20’s. Any takers
LP: perhaps we do… we may even be screwing each other’s wives, I guess we’ll wait and see!
LOL TRWH!! If I were screwing your wife it would make for a far more interesting story since I am a woman, but hey, if she’s into that sort of thing…
I’ve always wondered why people refer to “wife swapping” and never “husband swapping.”
It’s one thing for a couple to mutually decide that they would like to have other partners, but it’s quite another thing to view women as interchangeable sex toys.
If nor for interchangeable sex toys what else can women do? Wait they are incubators as well.
And cooks and maids, I suppose.
la la la
Hey Heshy, thanks for posting this. It is something to be aware of that goes on in our society. After all, if we know our enemy we can defend against him.
2nd, I learned some halachos today. Could anybody explain why sex with a goy is assur, I would like more details.
When did Frum Satire turn into Calm Kallahs?
LP: Now I’ve got a real hard on… I always told my wife she’s more then welcome to bring a chick home as long as she lets me watch… and then jump in!
Recently a group of Monsey Rabbis, acting as a bais din, called in a women who was having multiple affairs. They told her to stop. Her reaction? “It takes 2 to tangle, why don’t you call the men in?”. The Rabbi who told me the story said “she’s got a point”
The men are just as guilty. Once upon a time they would both be liable to capital punishment.
If adultresses wan’t to whore around, why bother getting / staying married?
As for swingers, they are a bunch of pervs and have no place in the frum world (my humble opinion).
phil, if they weren’t married, they couldn’t be adulteresses.
SF, TF, all the F families, from Forshay, or Park, or Central Monsey, this is just too sad to read about.
(is this stuff really true? Now I’m thinking about all the F’s I know who got divorced)
Hell ya it does!
My husband and I are proof of that.
Too bad for all you singles out there. Not knowing when the next time you’re going to get some. Ha!
First I’m also curious if sex with a nonjew is really assur, second (I am a woman) a while ago on fbook a guy who wasn’t using some weird name, who apparantly was from lakewood and married with 3 kids, wanted to meet me in a hotel room without exchanging names etc..he said heis wife doesn’t like sex..wtf???…people are seriously crazy!
and they say Jewish girls give good head. WHERE ARE THESE JEWISH GIRLS? People ask me if it’s true that Jewish girls give good head, I sadly have to say that I wouldn’t know. I’m with Larry David when he said that the dumbest thing Bill Clinton did was thinking that he could just get head from a Jewish girl (yes, Monica was Jewish) with no consequences. In my experience, most of the Jewish girls I’ve been with would sooner join a convent than give a man head.
I can confirm that there is wife swapping in Chicago. It started with rumors then after a while names started popping up as well. mi kamcha yisroel
Re: Jenny
Are you in B-more/Pickwick?
If so, I go to Bmore all the time and would love to make your acquaintance!
a lady asked her hair stylist what to do about her husband dandruff, she told her to give him head and shoulder. she replied, I know how to give head, how do you give shoulder.
btw mowser sucks. I hate coming here from my pda
One time, a married man was terminally ill. His wife went to the doctor to ask if there’s anything she could do. The doctor said “your husband is about to die a very slow, painful death. There is only one known cure: you must give him really good head. Otherwise it’s slow and painful death for him”.
The wife got home. The husband asked “well, what did the doctor say?” The wife replied “you’re gonna die, and there’s nothing either of us can do about it!”
ghottistyx, it reads like you’ve dated the wrong girls.
ghottistyx, the chick in the story musta been Jewish…
There is more than one fisherman in this family. Carping is code.
@hornball: yes, in most versions of the joke, the couple is Jewish. However, I can assure you that there is a stigma amongst women in general about giving head, especially once they’re married. I’ll stop here before I get too offensive.
@s(b), indeed my dating life sounds like something out of a Rodney Dangerfield routine.
a married jewish lady a d’rrasu or rabbanan??
is it eishes ish also?
Wow. The shit that goes down on this website…
Frumsatire,
I think, was propositioned by the same woman! I had an experience that was, pretty much, the exact same!
BitterWater…Real lesbians do not have recruitment drives…I have been dating a married Orthodox Jewish woman for 2 yrs and blame her upbringing for her decisions to marry lest she disappoint her parents..How sad to have told her future husband she was attracted to women and he still married her saying its just a phase, how desparate must he have been to marry a woman full well knowing she was a lesbian…Noone chooses to be Gay, we are born that way and all the religion in the world is going to change what we are..I will continue to love my Orthodox Jewish married lesbian and support her the best i can until she is no longer afraid of what her manipulative controlling husband “THAT KNEW” might do
Ha
What’s the interest rate on an orthodox swap? Can we get a better rate if the couple is not orthodox?
ha ha
the world is a screwed up place
Everything mentioned here is a d’oriyta prohibition, except lesbianism which is a Rabbinic prohibition. Rambam says in the M.T. that it’s forbidden because it’s “Ma’aseh Mitzrayim”, i.e. it was a practice of the Egyptians. If you catch you’re wife doing it, you get to slap her around, but I don’t remember if you’re allowed to divorce her without paying her ketubah or not. If you want to look it up the term is M’solelet – literally diver. Same root as used for a submarine in modern Hebrew. Machon Mamre is a good place to look stuff up, they have the entire M.T. in both vowelized Hebrew and in English translation.
For the person who asked why sex with a goy is asur – the isur listed by Rambam as one of the 613 d’oriyta commandments.
For MS, a woman is required to give her husband as much sex as he needs, in any way he wants it, specifically so he won’t be tempted to go outside the marriage and do things that are assur. By the way, this goes both ways – satisfy each other’s yetzer hara inside the context of marriage so that neither of the spouses are tempted to sin outside the marriage.
P.S. Rhody: It’s very doubtful that any more than a tiny percentage of gays are born that way, natural selection would eliminate them from the gene pool very quickly. As ancient Greece shows, it’s primarily a cultural thing.
MadMaxInJerusalem -
I disagree with your point about gays being eliminated via natural selection. I’m not a geneticist, but there are obviously many DNA-related aberrations or errors that occur during development and beyond – sickle-cell, Downs, many forms of cancer, even near- & far-sightedness. Millions of years of natural selection has obviously not weeded out these errors, as they are not necessarily passed down in our DNA, rather, they are random occurrances that will happen forever unless we manually intervene.
Perhaps someone with a medical background can shed some light.
justajew: Your argument could be valid if you’re consistent with it. First, all the examples you site are heritable traits, except for downs, and none of them precludes reproduction, except downs ( usually, but not always ).
The two arguments you could make in favor of HS being inborn and not by choice are:
1. That it’s genetic and the result of random mutation
2. That it’s not genetic but a result of environmental pollutants affecting the individuals development ( hormones, or other compound which make their way into the food chain ).
The problem I have with point one is that if it’s the result of genetic mutation then it’s heritable, and those HS who reproduce do so without the trait being passed on to their children. I personally have family where the man decided after 20 years of marriage and two kids that he was HS. Neither child is HS, nor are any of the grandkids to my knowledge. My understanding is that this is typical. So in my mind this mostly rules out the genetic argument.
Now point two may be very applicable in our day, and I think may have some validity in a small number of cases. Point one may as well.
However, the ancient Greek debates on this subject – and this practice was very widespread in ancient Greece – convinces me that in the vast majority of cases HS is the result of personal choices and social / environmental factors.
Take this for instance:
Protogenes, one of the youth’s suitors, begins the debate by stating flatly that “genuine Love has no connexion whatsoever with the women’s quarters.” Women are necessary for producing children, he says, but it is impossible for a man to feel more than sexual appetite for a woman, since his attraction to her is based purely on physical beauty. By contrast, a man who falls in love with a boy is interested in the boy’s character and virtue.
or this:
Lycinus, whose equal interest in women and boys is probably meant to represent the tastes of the average Greek, does his best to find a middle ground between these two views, but he is clearly more moved by Callicratidas’ argument. “Marriage is a boon and blessing to men when it meets with good fortune,” he concludes in judgment, “while the love of boys, that pays court to the hallowed dues of friendship, I consider to be the privilege of philosophy. Therefore all men should marry, but let only the wise be permitted to love boys, for perfect virtue grows least of all among women.”
These clearly indicate that in ancient Greece HS behavior was considered a socially acceptable conscious choice for men who were physically attracted to women.
1. That it’s genetic and the result of random mutation
2. That it’s not genetic but a result of environmental pollutants affecting the individuals development ( hormones, or other compound which make their way into the food chain ).
The current understanding of hetero- and homosexuality is that we all exist on a spectrum, and there is a tendency for some to lean more in the HS side than hetero. Therefore, I think both of the above arguments are correct. There is a random mutation/genetic abnormality that gives some people a greater tendency to be homosexual. Whether they act upon that tendency at age 12 or age 50, after 30 years of marriage, is irrelevant.
Greek society actively encouraged HS behavior, so those on any part of the spectrum (except those who were completely repulsed by it, I guess) were encouraged.
My understanding is that this is typical.
I never stated that HS was passed down genetically, but if it’s truly a genetic mutation then I guess it would. Since the vast majority of practicing HS “came out” much earlier – the ones that I know tell me that they were fully aware of their sexuality in their early to mid teens – and do not have genetic children, I don’t know if there’s enough information to know this for certain.
i just pray to god almighty, if i ever have any zechus, please dont let my child marry a child from wife swaaping parents
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