The title is misleading, because technically there wasn’t a minyan, since there were only about 7 men and twice that in women.
I spent this shabbos at the Isabella Freedman center in northwestern Connecticut, and had a lovely time, partially and I know people are going to bitch and moan right now, due to the fact that Congregation Beth El a reform shul in Park Slope was renting out the retreat center. My friend is the mashgiach there and in the past I had a friend who did the Adamah fellowship (of which I contemplated doing many times – but never could get how I could afford to just not make anything for 3 months)
Growing up frum taught me many things, one of which was the fact that the Reform and Conservative movements were loads of crap and that they were wrong and everything they did was sinful and so on. I have had this concept drilled into my head from all angles, from the yeshiva community, from my family and from my peers, and this weekend opened my mind a little bit.
I have been attracted to open orthodoxy for some time, probably since I heard Rabbi Avi Weiss speak at the University of Albany several years back, but in more recent times because I have been in a exploratory stage (not because I resent the frum community at large – but because my ideals and philosophies are not regarded at all, except for in Israel) I myself have always been the type to join multiple communities and sects rather than just be in one of them, hence the reason I could never become chabad like so many people think I am. I think every community, including Reform, Conservative, Renewal, Egalitarian etc, have something to offer. Am I wrong for thinking this?
In my world, this is complete heresy, I don’t know why? After all, if these groups are wrong and not practicing, “real” Judaism, I should see this and come back home right? Today I experienced my first reform minyan and I enjoyed it immensely. Part of what I enjoyed so much was watching the enjoyment of those davening or connecting or whatever you want to call it. There was a woman playing guitar and lots of singing, it felt great to fin ally go to shul and see everyone participating and everyone happy. Besides for the Carlebach shul or shuls in Israel, it seems that most people see shul as a chore. I was once asked by someone to ponder this question “would you rather be in shul or at work? The fact that I hesitated was pretty startling on my part, but I wonder how many people really enjoy going to shul and actually get something out of it.
Don’t get me wrong, I have been in shuls where I have felt a connection, but that is rare. I particularly am attracted to old shuls which show the survival of Judaism, I love the old shul in Woodridge, NY and most recently I went to a poetry reading at the Stanton Street Shul on the lower east side which kind of felt like one of those shuls where we would go to hole up in during a pogrom. But those weren’t connections through the davening, they were of place, is that counted? What is counted anyway?
I could go all Frum Satire on you and explain to you why these people were enjoying the service so much. They could wear whatever they wanted, I was in shorts and a nice shirt, they didn’t have to daven the whole thing, they sat together (outside of orthodoxy its not really a big deal) and they had good singing rather then rushing through a bunch of prayers with mumbling. In frum shuls everything is so routine and done all the time that we hardly notice, I would be willing to bet that these people rarely make it to shul. No one was talking and the kids present were good and quiet, such a rarity.
Everyone connects on their own level and I connected today, I know some of you may think I am an apikores – which is not really possible because I am an am-haaretz, but still I really enjoyed myself and thought all about Shabbat and the service and all that honky dory stuff.
Then again, am I even supposed to be having a connection in shul? Or is it just this servitude/blind faith, belief stuff that I hear all the time in code words like halacha moshe Mi-Sinai or Takoo?
- Reform Rabbi thinks tailgating will boost temple attendance
- Should someone stick to one community?
- Rabbi Sara Hurwitz is the first orthodox woman Rabbi – is this wrong or just against the status quo?
- I went to my first Egalitarian minyan and it was interesting
- The Mission Minyan: If Orthodox and Egalitarian were possible
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I am loving the comments, however I am sure that reform, conservative and all the non-orthodox sects bad mouth orthodox Jews as well. They just may be more PC about it.
It seems to me that the debate going on in this thread is doomed to name-calling and circular reasoning, and that no good can come out of it. Why is this so? Because the orthodox argument boils down to:
1. Any movement which denies Judaism is bad
2. Reform and Conservative do not practice Judaism
3. Thus, they are bad
This is all well and good, but this isn’t what the argument is about as far as the R and C are concerned. For us, the debate is about 2 itself. The O hold that we don’t practice Judaism based on the practices of the movement. To this we say – yes, our movement does permit driving to shul on Shabbos (not sure how you’re supposed to get home though.) But this doesn’t prove your point, all it proves is that we don’t practice orthodox Judaism, not that we don’t practice Judaism. We believe that what we are doing is Judaism. We deny the principle that our patriarchs made horrific mistakes in meeting wives at wells rather than through shadchans. We do not accept that Jews in the desert wore black hats and kaftans. We believe that elements of the halachic system grew out of OCD tendencies on the parts of certain rabbis, and others grew out of desires on the part of rabbis for social control. But the orthodox claim a monopoly on what Judaism is and label the rest of us as not practicing Judaism because we don’t accept their definitions. Judaism existed before the SA, and always had strains besides the one you have followed. The orthodox insist, though, on ignoring any halachic literature that was not absorbed into a particular strain of historic development – then deny that there was any historic development at all. We believe that you are stretching and twisting and misrepresenting verses to make your points, and that the Talmud is not always inherently logical.
I personally do not accept autocratic rule. If the Talmud were a straightforward, ruthless application of logic, that would be nice. However, I do not accept “my father said so” as an argument, or “I received it as a tradition.” Sorry.
however I am sure that reform, conservative and all the non-orthodox sects bad mouth orthodox Jews as well.
This is true. Mostly we complain that the Orthodox are very judgmental and look down on anyone who doesn’t do things exactly like them.
Phyllis,
It’s nice to see an argument formed logically and without name calling (signs of not being one of the boys,
).
Just to point out, your examples are all pre-Sinai. The halacha derives from the Torah commandment on not taking “their” daughters for our sons:
You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son, for he will cause your child to turn away from after Me and they will worship the gods of others then the L–rd’s wrath will burn against you, and He will destroy you quickly.
It was understood from the grammar of the verse that the “he” in “he will cause your child to turn away” is the father-in-law, meaning the non-Jewish household. This is the source for matrilineal descent.
There are numerous examples of things done pre-Torah that were then prohibited. Example – it is prohibited for a man to marry two sisters…but Jacob married Rachel and Leah.
OTD,
I can prove the fact that halacha forbids molestation, halacha clearly forbids sex outside of marriage, as well as any type of sensual touching that will lead to it.
Lying is forbidden, lo teshakru + genevas daas.
I never claimed that all frummies are good. I know plenty that are totally rotten. However, Just because they aren’t following the law, that doesn’t make the law bad. That would be like blaming the street light for turning red while I’m speeding through it thereby causing an accident.
Phyllis,
The reason the children of Moses, Joseph, etc. were Jewish was because their MOTHER also became Jewish. CDawnR is right about the verse that teaches us that Judaism goes after the mother.
Jack,
I answered your question about my lineage. Now please tell me yours-is your mother and maternal grandmother Jewish?
Chosid,
Never claimed that anyone was an apikores, rather some of these so called rabbis probably fall under the category of mumar, one that turns their back on what they know is the proper path, aka OTD.
I realize most congregants don’t know any better and have the tinuk shenishba status, but I do know that some of the conservative rabbis have valid or close to valid smicha. When they choose to officiate under the refomed or conservative movement’s umbrella, they are denying the truth of the written and oral Torah.
Valid or close to valid smicha? Just who has valid or cloes to valid smicha today?
Maybe the conservative rabbis with intensive training in Talmud and halachic sources understand something about those sources, then? If you’re going to allow that they understand halacha, then what standing do you have to write them out for having a different pshat than your rav? Is the Rav also apikorsus or mumar for allowing one to enter a conservative shul or sit on a board with conservative rabbis, or for trying to build a Beit Din with orthodox and conservative rabbis?
Puzzled,
I’m obviously not reffering to smicha as in the smicha given in the times of the sanhedrin.
I wouldn’t go to any beth din that uses a conservative/reformed rabbi as a judge. If they truly understand halacha, and continue to serve as rabbis in areas that defy the laws of prayer, i.e. mixed seating, no mechitza, etc, they are mumarin of the worse kind as they are not only sinning themselves, but causing the public to sin as well.
The most lenient of poskim in the orthodox world R. Moshe Feinstein, ruled against davening with mixed seating, and against davening in synagogues that didn’t use a valid mechitza for a number of reasons.
Then again, if reformed temple services don’t even qualify as davening, they probably don’t need a mechitza to begin with, and not being allowed in their so called minyan is probably due to maras ayin.
Check your local Rav for details.
>Lying is forbidden, lo teshakru + genevas daas.
I never claimed that the law is bad, or that frummies are evil, btw.
Yes, you have a wonderful (though strict) set of laws that regulate your behavior, if followed correctly. Most other people don’t, and I could see why that might give you a sense of moral superiority. However, you and I know that many people take liberties with those laws, and often pick and choose which to follow, and at which times. I don’t think it’s our place to judge anyone else. For example, should I judge someone who davens once a day, instead of three times? Someone who eats rabbanut, and not just badatz? someone who uses plastic tablecloths on shabbos? I think you’d agree that in general, it’s a good practice to live and let live. And that includes people who practice a different version of your religion, or, I would hope, someone that practices no religion at all, like myself.
OTD,
I’m all for live and let live even if I know that I’m supposed to rebuke people for not following. I unfortunately have many family members that don’t follow the program, and even borderline atheists, as my parents are bt’s and so is my wife.
I don’t claim to follow all the laws myself either. I understand nobody is perfect.
However, when a group decides to throw 3000+ years of tradition down the toilet in order to make themselves feel good about their non observance, you can bet that I’ll have something to say about it.
They have caused millions of unsuspecting innocent Jews to sin and continue to do so, just as the Jews for jesus and similar groups have. By sanctioning interfaith wedding or accepting any that feels “Jewish” as a Jew as their official policy reads, they have destroyed millions of souls, not to mention gone against the fundamentals of the Torah, all the while parading around as “rabbis”.
No you can begin to understand why we aren’t allowed to attend these temples or weddings where the groom or bride was “converted” under non orthodox auspices. They are truly a tragedy, people sit shiva when this happens in frum families.
Phil: I’m not going to sit here and argue with you all day, as I don’t consider myself an expert on Judaism.
One thing I don’t like about your approach to non-Orthodox people is that the reason for their worldview is “to make themselves feel good about their non observance.” I don’t know how you can presume to know their reasons for anything.
In any case, if you can prove, in a rational, scientific manner, that your way of life is the correct way to live (hint: appeal to tradition won’t work), we may listen to you. Until then, you may have to concede that religion is a matter of opinion, or personal choice.
I grew up reform and have become more traditionally observant on my own ( I would say more religious, but nothing hurts my reform mom’s feelings more than being accused of not being religious) Reform in interesting, and yes more open in lots of ways than orthodox Judaism. The problem I have is how much is left out of REform Judaism. Things are simply not taught. Five years ago if I had been told that I had to keep Shabbat or get shot, I would get shot because I had NO IDEA what keeping Shabbat meant. I think once someone has information, they should be able to choose what they like. I just don’t think its a good idea for Reform shuls to pretend that important factors in Judaism don’t exist (like keeping Shabbat). But the guitar is nice, isn’t it??
Happy Shavuot to all!
Ah man Phil, ah man…
I really hope this fella’ doesn’t rep the mainstream O view.
… because you’re really harshing my mellow.
Also Mr. Downer,
The R/C movements don’t just exist so they can water own Judaism and “feel good” about themselves and have a good ol’ time. The R/C movements developed as a response to serious inquiry and reasoning. Hashem gave us brains so we should be allowed to use them without fear of being chastised by our fellow Jews.
So YOU don’t think that what they are practicing is real Judaism. Well sorry buddy but 73% of Jews in America have reached a different conclusion than you have. They musn’t possess the superb infallible intellect of a gentleman such as yourself.
Fresh, take it easy on the shrooms.
Fresh,
Sorry to interrupt your buzz, isn’t it a bit early in the day for that sort of thing anyway?
99.9% of the world doesn’t agree with us to begin with and never did. Avraham was the only believer in his time. 80% of the Jews in Egypt didn’t believe and weren’t saved either. Just because you live in an assimilated country, doesn’t mean you’re right.
Like I said, the vast majority don’t know any better, it’s all they have been taught from day 1.
I can imagine that orthodox Judaism is a harder to sell to people with all our restrictions. It’s simply easier to say, hey we have no rules, just good times, girls and ganja. Join us and you’re still a good Jew.
To hard to walk to shul? Drive.
Kosher too expensive? McDonalds is around the corner.
Pretty shiksa finds Judaism too complicated? No problem, marry her the way she is and have a merry chrismuka.
You know what Dr. Phil, you make some good points actually. But tell me, what do you think of conservative-Conservative Judaism?
>Like I said, the vast majority don’t know any better, it’s all they have been taught from day 1.
You still have to prove that they would accept it if they were shown the “truth.” Maybe only 1 in 100 of the people who try out kiruv places become BTs? But that’s okay, because, like Avraham, very few people see the truth.
It makes about as much sense as me saying you’re not a Seventh Day Adventist because you don’t know any better.
YOU may as well become christian if all you care about is mixed seating, dressing casually and nice singing. I would recommend a Gospel church for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FRUM SATIRE,
I’m not blaming you because like you said, you must be an am haaretz when it comes to certain issues. anyways regarding playing music in shul, the reason why we don’t do so is becuase music (especially live music) was banned after the destruction of the bais hamikdash. YOu can find many sources on this including a gemarah in mesechta gitin I believe on daf zayin or ches. So, why do people still listen to music today? Because there were a few rabbonim who matired it for certain circumstances (ex. one person I belive reb moshe ,gave a heter for listening to music to help you work). Rav Sheinberg said that we can listen today because many people are depressed and they need it. In short, we should avoid listening altogether especially in shul which is equating it to the bais hamikdash during galos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeshiva dude: Use a few more exclamation marks, and we’ll take you even more seriously.
Fresh,
I can’t answer that because I don’t know what the definition of conservative is. Here in Montreal, most synagouges (over 100) are M.o, Orthodox or Chassidic. There are only 2 reformed, 2 conservatve and 1 reconstuctionist. So as you can well imagine, our “conservative” is borderline m.o. I still wouldn’t daven there simply due to the fact that there is no mechitza.
I know of a so called conservative place in Houston that called non Jewish women up to the Torah. That would never happen in the consrvative synagogue here as far as I’m told by one of their members who happens to be my accountant.
OTD,
No you’re jumping to another religion, which is a completely different discussion. We’re talking about authentic Judaism which Jews believe was given to Moshe at Sinai. He was given the oral Torah which was passed down verbally until Rabbeinu hakadosh who decided to write it down in the Mishna as people were being dispersed and weren’t able to attend the mass yeshivas of 10,000 students. Then, cam the amoraim, rishonim, achronim, etc., all the way until the rabbis we have today. The one thing they all had / have in common is their acceptance of the law, not shredding it and not adding to it (unless it was a safeguard which is permitted).
A “few” years ago, along come a few guys with a “new” idea and try to change tradition. J,c, did the same thing, we all know where it lead.
Phil,
There are “half mechitzas” in some Conservative shuls. Would you daven in a Conservative shul is they had a mechitza on shabbes even if you knew people drove there?
*… in a Conservative shul that has a mechitza
Phil –
First, if you’re not talking about real smicha, what are you referring to when you say “valid smicha”? In other words, what is the operative difference between having valid smicha and not? A learned person without smicha can answer shaylos (ok, maybe the answer won’t be accepted, but the same can be said of the average guy with smicha without shimush.) There is no special privilege attending to having “valid smicha” – even someone ordained as a dayan does not have rabbinic authority in monetary matters today. So what’s the distinction you’re making between valid and invalid in terms of current smicha?
Second, I realize you wouldn’t go to such a beit din, but I want to know if you consider The Rav to be an apikorus for trying to build one. Certainly he’s not an am haaretz and he knows what’s he doing, right? So was he an apikorus, and by extension, is anyone with RIETS smicha before 92 or so invalidated? Is the majority of Young Israel now assur?
Yes, Rav Moshe was the most lenient orthodox poseik on many questions, but clearly not on this question. The Rav was far more lenient on these kinds of issues. He allowed one to go to daven on one’s own and then go to a conservative shul to hear kaddish and kedusha on shabbos if it was the only shul in 20 miles and there was a minyan present, or at least so I’ve heard.
On your other points, it seems to me that you’re not that familiar with conservative rabbinic literature. The pshat you’re referring to is halachic writing, not “feel good” writing. Yes, they wanted a certain conclusion ( to allow driving on shabbos) but an orthodox poseik often wants a certain conclusion too, and this doesn’t invalidate their having reached it. Have you read the teshuvah? Do you have specific objections to it (I do, by the way, and I don’t drive to shul, I daven alone because I don’t have a shul within walking distance.)
Your comments about throwing away 3000 years of tradition are well taken. Be aware that the opinion of a right-wing conservative Jew is that this is precisely what the orthodox are doing – throwing away 3000 years of evolution of halachic practice in favor of a rigid view of “closing of generations” that has no precedent outside of the specific texts that invoke it. The Torah says “go to the judge that will be in that time” not that once a generation is closed there can be no argument. The oral law was not recorded until the Mishnah to keep it tied to the unity of Torah Judaism, and many of us believe that problems began when we began writing specifically halachic works not tied to Torah itself. This is where the rule of God was abandoned for the rule of rabbis.
Yes, the verse about adding and subtracted has been understood to allow safeguards – by those introducing safeguards. So, too, we understand it to allow and require what we do. The conservatives also don’t shred the law – what makes the conversation so hard is misrepresentation of our position.
By the way, is this one reason for making it assur to enter a conservative shul? This way, people will have no way of knowing what conservative practice and teachings are, and rather than engaging the debates will simply give answers like “they don’t do Judaism there?” I know that if I wanted to maintain autonomous rabbinic authority, I’d be certain not to allow my followers to hear critiques of it.
This is really the issue – we believe that all can understand the law, and can determine if a rabbinic statement makes sense or not. The orthodox accept rabbinic authority uncritically, and do not allow rabbinic reasoning to be checked. This opens the door to abuse – when Lord Acton made his famous observation, he was referring to Papal infallibility, not to government. Some sects of orthodoxy have developed a theory of rabbinic infallibility, probably borrowed in part from Catholicism.
Becky, next time you’re offered {random thing} and {getting shot} I advise you to choose the random thing.
Jack,
Still waiting for your answer if your mother’s mother was Jewish (on her mother’s side). I’m sure you think you “bested” me with your oh so “brilliant” arguments, but I’m curious to know.
“In the meantime I have to respond to the emails I got from some of the lurkers here who want to know if this is a real discussion. More than one said that if the people here are representative of Orthodox Judaism they want nothing to do with it.”
Oh wait, you’re probably still responding to the myriads of emails of your admirers…lol!!!
But please don’t respond tonight because it’s a Jewish holiday. Unless, of course, you’re not halachically Jewish, then it doesn’t matter, and it’s fine.
And BTW, this quote from you, “Your incessant need to use pejorative and derogatory terms is all the proof anyone needs that you haven’t a leg to stand on here.” quite aptly applies to you, as anyone call well see. I didn’t call you any “pejorative” or “derogatory terms”. The fact that you accuse me of that shows YOU have no argument at all and you’re trying to insinuate you DO by saying I am calling you names. Sure I dissed your “arguments” or whatever you want to call them. You have provided ZERO proofs or logic to any side at all.
Unfortunately, you lack depth, substance, and (I suspect) a brain. Pick up a book once in a while.
Phil:
>No you’re jumping to another religion, which is a completely different discussion.
No, I’m not. I’m just saying that for you to say the only reason someone doesn’t agree with you is because they’re ignorant, is ridiculous. It had to do with your statement, and nothing to do with religion. Here’s a non-religious example then: “the only reason you don’t like turkey feet is because you’ve never tried it.”
But you know appeals to tradition shouldn’t work. You rattling off stories, whether from your parents, teachers, etc is no different than a Reform person doing the same. Are we looking to get at the truth, or to make fun of our opponents?
Puzzled,
By Smicha, I was referring to what process an orthodox, yeshivish or chassidish person goes through in order to get a smicha, dayanus, etc., not the “ordination” given by reform.
I’m not very familiar with consevative Judaism, so you’re right about not knowing exactly what the movement stands for. What I do know, is that there are things forbidden and contrary to what I’ve learned and believe in, that are acceptable to conservative rabbis and synagogues, which is why I reject them.
I’m not familiar with any heter for davening conservative, nor for going there for kaddish, kedusha, Torah reading, etc. I never had the need as there are 20+ real shuls in walking distance from my house.
From what I’ve read (from a lubab rabbi), one isn’t allowed to attend a shul without a mechitza even if it’s rosh hashana and he has nowhere else to daven or hear shofar. Again, this is his opinion, theiere are probably poskim that are more lenient.
Whether or not I would walk in to a conservative minyan is not the issue, if really you want to know, ask a COMPETENT Rav.
Anyway, to both you and Fresh, this post was originally about a reformed service Hesh attended, the negative comments to it all came from true Jews that know the destructive nature of what reformers stand for by their own
admission.
I never heard of any heter to attend a reformed service of any sort. I was specifically advised not to attend a wedding of a family member that married a conservative convert, despite the rift it may cause in the family. The rabbi knew the so called convert, who doesn’t practice anything more today than he did before he converted, and knew the entire conversion was total BS and done to please the parents of the bride who aren’t religious in the least bit.
These have been the bulk of my experiences with both movements, Where one starts and other ends is a very gray area.
Anyway, wishing all of you a good YomTov. As we celebrate the giving of the Torah, let us merit to know the true ways of the Torah speedily in our days.
OTD,
I was trying to be melamed zchus on people that have the tinuk shenishba status. I didn’t invent this concept, it is brought down by many, including the Rambam and Lubavitcher Rebbe.
It would be far worse to accuse them of being Apikorsim, apostates, etc.
I can’t believe Phil is still going at it. Why don’t you step away from the computer and go do some kiruv for your less observant brothers and sisters instead of sitting on your ass berating them.
>I was trying to be melamed zchus on people that have the tinuk shenishba status.
How generous of you.
Wouldn’t you say most people are tinokos shenishbu? Most people who were raised Reform tend to stick with that. Same with Orthodox, and Conservative. Same with Catholics, Protestants, and Hindus. How do we know you’re not a tinok shenishba, Phil?
Happy Shavuos.
What is the central idea in Judaism?
Developing a relationship with G-d.
How do we do this?
We do what G-d tells us to do.
The Torah contains these laws and the Oral Law enables us to understand.
If you believe that the rabbis have manipulated the Torah, then how do you know anything is from G-d?
What guidlines exist that help you figure this out?
There needs to be some kind of guide book to help us understand the Torah since many of the mitzvot are not quantified within it.
I grew up Conservative and I went to school with many other Reform and Conservative Jews. The vast majority had little to no connection. If asked to choose between Shabbos or Kashrut or and hard mitzvah and being like any other American kid, they would choose the later every single time. Where is Judaism without commitment?
Stunned that the comments from those espousing what many of us might think of as the most traditional practices include such vulgar suggestions. Who you are, how you feel inside, and what you say reflects on all of Judaism and most particularly on the sect that you purport to defend.
Seems many people here share the same shoe size as everyone else on the planet, since these people seem to know enough about everyone else know not only whether they behaving correctly or incorrectly, but also exactly why they do so and how valid their reasons are.
My life is much simply now that I have only one pair of shoes I claim to know what it’s like to walk in. They’re my own.
I think an appropriate time to worry about burning a sefer torah would be when confronted with said sefer torah and the dilemma of what to do with it, not when looking for a way to prove a point in a debate.
I think an appropriate time to decide how one will respond to a person of a different sect and his religious practices is when one has a need or desire to interact with such a person.
Putting my Jewish hat on for a moment, I think the correct way to use halachos that require alienation and condemnation is when they become relevant to one’s life, not when they can be wielded to denigrate one’s fellow man.
I have to admit to being a bit puzzled (hence the name) by some of the comments that have gone up since I was away. Phil responded to me by clarifying what he meant by smicha, without answering my point that there is no set of privileges and so on associated with the title today, leading me to wonder why he considers it relevant whether or not a Conservative rabbi has a valid smicha.
Phil, I also wonder when you say that your opposition to Conservatism stems from them allowing practices your teachers don’t allow. Would you act the same way towards an orthodox rav who poskins differently from yours? Do you think it is assur to go into the shul of a rav who poskins certain issues more leniently?
Adina, I struggle to understand your point. Is it that the rabbis are never wrong because, if they were, that would make decisions difficult?
I wonder if anyone here ever played “telephone” in elementary school. If you did, and you still insist that the Talmud reflects an unbroken chan from Moses and is therefore correct whenever an appeal to tradition is made, I think you’re suffering from some level of cognitive dissonance. Is it not more reasonable to see the Talmud as the work of pious, dedicated rabbis struggling to understand an ancient text, together with the contents of notes from long-ago lectures?
Puzzled,
My opposition is to conservative Judaism stems from their blatant disregard for basic halacha. It’s that simple.
I wasn’t the one to come up with the unboken chain from Moshe misini to the Mishna. I’ts clearly stated in the pirkei avos and re-iterated by other halachic authorities. Our basic beliefs of standard rules such the specifications of tefillin, laws of kosher, shabbat etc., all stem from the same source.
OTD,
We just might all be tinokos like you said. I believe that if we are, we should try to rectify the situation as much as possible by learning.
Boy this thread went epic. Epic bull pies in alot of ways, but thats to be expected. I pretty well suspected that some folks wouldnt count me for their minyan but now I know for sure. Don’t amount to a hill of beans though.
So here’s a question for the knowledgable frummies: if the oral law was recieved at Sinai, then how can there have been conflicting opinions recorded and how is it that minority opinions got recorded separately? If “these and these are the words of the living God” there cant just be one right way it seems to me. As far as X000 years of unchanged history, well all the history books seem to say different. But I’m far from as educated as some here so what do I know?
“There really are no facts when it comes to how to practice Judaism, halachically or not. Jewish practice is all one big gray area”
Now that there is about the smartest, most true thing said here.
Today I went to my step niece’s Bat Mitzvah. Was a thing of beauty and she did amazingly well. They do things a bit differently at this shul than at ours back home, but thats to be expected as well. Tomorrow we head to NYC, shame I wont be there long enough to check out NY style Shabbat though.
Ah, I see, we know that the Mishnah is correct and without blemish because it is so written…in a Mishnah. Now it makes perfect sense. As you well know, there is no self-serving reason for a group to affirm it’s own correctness.
But your opposition to Conservative Judaism comes from disregard for halacha. Yet you haven’t been able to provide an example of disregard for halacha. All you’ve given us is examples of how your opinion differs, unaccompanied by an argument that the Conservative position is actually outside of halachic consideration.
Rabbi Soloveitchik held that cholov stam is forbidden, Reb Moshe ruled that it was permitted. Was this disregard for halacha, or an honest thought process coming to a different conclusion? I expect you hold it to be the later. On what basis do you not extend this consideration to Conservative rabbis? Again, the reason can’t be the outcome, it has to be in the process. But you haven’t even read (I think you said) the teshuvot that you object to. So how would you know?
Chris – the official position is that there is no disagreement in the Talmud on any matter that was transmitted as a tradition from Moshe. The matters that are subject to disagreement in the Talmud are the rabbinic enactments, and the laws learned out from the Chumash by the application of the 13 principles. On these, we say eilu v eilu in principle, while the halacha follows the minority opinion.
As for later disagreements (tefillin, for instance) both sides are aware that the other position existed in the Talmudic age, the disagreement is about 1-whether it was put to a vote and a halacha decided and 2-what the halachic decision was.
Jack,
I answered your question about my lineage. Now please tell me yours-is your mother and maternal grandmother Jewish?
Homey,
Occasionally I have to deal with real life. I am a Litvak from Vilna. I can go back generations, mother, grandmother, great grandmother, great great grandmother all MOT.
You can bang on your drum all day and insist that you won the argument. I never cared about convincing you or Philly.
Neither one of you provided any substance, just a lot of intolerant rhetoric. And as I said I received quite a bit of feedback about you and your fellow’s behavior.
Perhaps it doesn’t bother you, but the general theme was that you guys are ignorant bigots and poster children for what not to do.
You don’t know much about the R or C movements. If I mentioned the Pittsburgh Platform I am not sure that you would know what I was talking about.
I am not defined by you, makes no difference whether you think I am a Jew or not. If I really thought about it I’d probably feel sad for you. It is good to use your brain and question what is spoonfed to you.
Orthodox Judaism in all facets is a minority within a minority. I know from experience that not all Torah True Jews share the same provincial perspective as yours. They understand that it is better for everyone if we all work together.
All that being said, I don’t believe that Torah is min hashamayim. Doesn’t make sense to me. Divinely inspired is far more likely.
Anyhoo, you are a real peachy fellow and I certainly appreciate the incredible insight that has been shown here.
Be well Homey, you and your pal the fake fisherman are a real hoot.
I think it’s pretty awesome you wrote about this. I’ve wanted to go to a Reform temple for the longest time, but just don’t have the opportunity like you did. If I’m ever somewhere for Shabbat where it’s available and my wife won’t murder me for going, I’m going to check it out.
Thanks
At what point in time did the rabbis start making it up as they went along? How do we figure out what G-d wants? The reason there can be different opinions is that there are different situations which need different answers. One seemingly small detail can make all the difference.
Puzzled,
The example I’m referring to regarding the conservative movement’s disregard to halacha is mixed seating / no mechitza during davening. Again, this is under the assumption that the given conservative rabbi doesn’t perform fake conversions to conduct invalid marriages, as in cases I know of mentioned above.
With the reformers, they actually have the nerve to state it as part of their charter.
It’s really that simple, I don’t see why you’re still puzzled.
As you seem to enjoy my stories about conservative rabbis, here is another one. I attended a friend’s wedding about 4 years ago. He’s not religious and his bride’s family is affiliated to a conservative synagogue in the US. During the Chuppa, the rabbi had them take vows. Not only is this a totally non Jewish tradition that has no place under a chuppa, but the most important day in their lives which is considered like Yom Kippur fror the groom and bride, is the worst possible time to have them make vows, regardless of whether they will keep them or not.
To add insult to injury, we then go to the banquet which was a non kosher event. They had one kosher table for the few frum people in the crowd, this clown of a rabbi didn’t even have the decency to eat at the kosher table.
Adina – At what point in time did the rabbis start making it up as they went along?
Since the “beginning”. The halacha, at least to a certain extent, definitely had to change somewhat with time. For example, with the advent of electricity, someone had to define under which category it fell. Someday, maybe soon, smart houses (i.e. you enter a room, lights come on, it heats/cools as appropriate, etc) will have to be placed into a category. It will probably be assur when those are optional, but when it becomes standard, it will stop being assur. Just like running water in homes stopped being assur at some point.
Heshy, this is my first time commenting on this site, so …
You wrote:
Besides for the Carlebach shul or shuls in Israel, it seems that most people see shul as a chore. I was once asked by someone to ponder this question “would you rather be in shul or at work?
You were impressed by the fact that most of the people at the retreat found it to be enjoyable.
I want you to do a thought experiment for me.
Imagine that you walk in to 770, on a Friday night, where there are 600-800 people, and you selected out the two dozen that are most passionate about Yiddishkeit, and brought them, for a weekend, to your retreat area. Don’t you think that they would deeply enjoy davening for hours, learning and giving brilliant Shiurim, and farbrenging?
Of course they would.
But, you walk into 770, and you see the hundreds of people that don’t have that same passion, as well.
I promise you that if you went to the home congregations of these 20 reform Jews with whom you spent a weekend for a Rosh Hashanah service, when reform Judaism mandates that everyone comes to shul, the misery quotient will be far, far, far higher than it is in an Orthodox Shul.
My point is: Your comparing apples to oranges when you (Someone that is located close to the bottom of the passion index in an Orthodox community) compare the Orthodox experience of your circle with the reform experience of a group of people who are, by definition, at the top of the passion index in a reform community.
It will probably be assur when those are optional, but when it becomes standard, it will stop being assur. Just like running water in homes stopped being assur at some point.
Mark, you’re making stuff up again…
You really have to cut that out…
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should be silent.
Michael, just for the record, everything I post comes straight from my own brain. Therefore, please consider everything that I say as made up by me. Thanks.
That said, I wonder how someone went to the public well, filled a skin and carried it back to their home on shabbat without the problem of carrying from a reshut harabim to a reshut hayachid? Or perhaps later how one went out to pump water into the pipe that would bring it to ones home? Now we have a faucet with water pressure behind it, which all agree is permissible to use on shabbat.
Maybe the chachamim (like Michael) here can comment on how the rulings on electricity were made over the last 100 years or so. And perhaps shed some light on how smart homes will be handled in the future.
if a conservative or a reform person wrote a sefer torah you are allowed to burn it.
JAck you said
Congratulations, you have joined the ranks of the Nazis, Romans and a bunch of other schmucks who murder all Jews. Yes, all Jews, even those who have a stick shoved so far up their tuchus they can’t see straight anymore.’
excuse me why in the world is everyone misquoeting me-When I said that sefer torah of a Reform can be burnt I never meant for anyone to barge into a reform temple and burn their sefer torah.What I was refering to was if you get a reform/conservative siddur/sefere torah that you know was made for sure by a conservative or a reform place you are allowed to burn it throw it away it is not considered Kadosh-
I am sorry if you don’t like what I said but Halacha is Halacha don’t misquote me call your rabbi
Sorry, Mark,
You said that running water in houses used to be assur, and then it stopped being assur at one point. Nothing that you said in your follow up comment bails that out.
When you make your attacks on Chareidi Judaism, or the Halachic process, you need to use actual facts, not stuff that you pull out of your brain.
If you can’t do that, you should post a disclaimer at the beginning of every post: “All facts in this comment are made up from whole cloth, or they are distortions of things that I think I once heard in a class when I wasn;t really paying attention.”
When you make your attacks on Chareidi Judaism, or the Halachic process, you need to use actual facts, not stuff that you pull out of your brain.
I don’t think I am attacking anything. Sometimes I might point out that I don’t believe Charedism to be authentic Judaism, and I certainly don’t attack the halachic process. I noticed that you ignored any of the questions. That’s telling to me and others that are willing to learn from discussion. I also clearly admit that I am not among the greatest of lamdans!
I’m glad you had a good experience.
You think the Stanton looks like a hole in the wall now.. you should have seen it before!
Lakewood’s comments were uncalled for. Joy’s were extremely harsh.
For those of you who want to argue that traif is never eaten in a Reform shul or function. I’m sorry, but you are all wrong. I was at an MJE class one time on bar/bas mitzvahs. There was a little competition going on who’s food was more traif. Most of the people has things like shrimp, lobster and clams at their coming of age.
I’m with Puzzled at #36 to some extent. I really do thing the chumros are out of control. My rabbi doesn’t allow me to filter water on Shabbos, but everyone else does, including Orthodox rabbis.
Listen I know Conservative Jews who are shomer kashrus and Shabbos and I know “Orthodox” Jews who aren’t. There are a lot of labels flying around.
Phil,
As for conversions, there’s a lot of messed up going on with conversions and that’s across the spectrum. I recently saw something disgusting happen with an Orthodox conversion. She got away with it. Anyhow, the point is that it’s not just the Reform movement converting people inadquately. Sometimes, the rabbis turn a blind eye, sometimes they don’t know how insincere a candidate really is.
I know people on here think that I’m judgemental about these things. Actually, the majority of people I know converting are very good. However, there are some that are not.
Mark,
I suppose you think the Orthodox rabbis don’t convert people for marriage? Enter EJF. They tout that this is what they do.
Holy Cow, this was long… and I didn’t even READ it. I just skimmed it.
Michael
Comment #147 was very well thought out and intelligent. It answered a lot of questions I have about religion sociology and politics.
thank you
Phil
Once again you be gettin me laughin on the floor.Maybe if you was black you wouln’t be gettin them “penis enlargment” spam.You know they only tryin to help you out bratha.(just kiddin)
My rabbi doesn’t allow me to filter water on Shabbos
If you have a whole house filter, does he permit it? What about the small filter that is often present at the end of the faucet?
I suppose you think the Orthodox rabbis don’t convert people for marriage? Enter EJF. They tout that this is what they do.
It’s very rare, and the Orthodox generally follow all the strictures of conversion. I looked at EJF’s website and interestingly enough, right on the front page, one of the Gedolim they mention is a very close relative of mine. Since they are converting people that are already married, why would you say that they are doing it to enable a marriage, after all, they are already married?
Phil, suppose you have a chicken with damage to some part of the chicken. You take it to a rav, and he says it’s kosher, so you eat it. If he says it’s not kosher, you don’t eat it. If he says it’s not kosher and you’re required to bomb the village it was born in, you find a new rabbi. As much as you might think you don’t apply critical thinking to the pronouncements of the rabbis, you do, and not doing it is not a virtue.
Now, certain derivations look just silly to me, and look like clear cases of social engineering relying on a tenuous link to the text. Mechitza is one of them. Nonetheless, again, conservative Judaism doesn’t argue this way. Rather, they have a halachic argument as to why it is not required.
By the way, I recall Satmar disagreeing strongly with Reb Moshe on artificial insemination. Do you agree that it would have been offensive for a rabbi who disagreed with his position to say things like “Reb Moshe doesn’t care about halacha – it’s too hard to have children the natural way, he says go ahead and do it in the manner of the devil”? This just isn’t the way to disagree with halachic reasoning. Yet it’s what you want to do vis a vis conservatives.
On practices in conservative shuls – not everyone who affiliates with a conservative shul is conservative. Not every rabbi is necessarily conservative. JTS has internship locations with housing that is not in driving distance of the shul, requiring the student to drive to his internship location on shabbos, and to drive past other shuls. This is forbidden in conservative halacha, and a student who accepts such an internship cannot be considered a dedicated conservative Jew. Some rabbis drive to their shuls past other shuls. Even if not, a person who moves into a town is expected to move in walking distance, so a rabbi who moves into a town to work there and yet drives to shul is also violating the halacha. There are orthodox rabbis who don’t follow halacha either, or even worse, who twist halacha to justify horrific actions. I don’t need to go into details.
I think a big confusion about conservative Judaism is thinking that the average observance level of attendees defines the halacha of the group. How many people park 2 blocks away from the orthodox shul? How many come home after shul and start cooking and turning lights on? This in no way means that orthodox halacha permits this.
Puzzled,
Now you’re really sounding puzzled. Bombing a town where a non kosher chicken came from? Comparing the Satmar Rebbe and R. Moshe Fienstein to the conservative movement?
We’re talking basic halacha that one learns in elementary school. How does the movement allow fake conversions? How does the movement allow changing the siddur and reffering the “holy one blessed be HE as blessed be HE/SHE or IT? How does the movement allow men and women to mix for davening, especially when most of the women have their hair uncovered?
I’ll tell you how. It’s called throwing halacha in the garbage to suit your needs, aka “progressive thinking”.
These few feeble minded individuals feel that they have the mental capacity, knowledge and authority to ovveride everything the Chazal have built over the past 3000 years.
Who are they? What significance do they have?
None whatsoever! That’s exactly why they created the movement.
I’m not saying all Chassidim or Orthodox Jews are perfect. Many are far from it. Simple difference is that people that don’t follow are sinning, whereas in the reform and conservative movements, when people don’t follow, the law is changed to suit their deviances.
I’m not saying all Conservative or Reform Jews are perfect. Many are far from it. Simple difference is that people that don’t follow are sinning, whereas in the Orthodox movements, when people don’t follow, they demean those that are honest in their practice to suit their deviances.
Telzer,
Cute, but I would like to see where that’s written in the official policy of Orthodox Judaism or the Shulchan Aruch.
By contrast, if you visit the reform or conservative movements web sites, you’ll clearly see what I’ve stated as the official movement policy.
Dear Puzzled,
I would challenge with your doubt “that observance level of attendees defines the halacha of the group. ” This is adequately proven and documented (“The Debate over Mixed Seating in the American Synagogue”, Jonathan D. Sarna for example). This is most evident in C&R where the tail does wag the dog. But it is also naive to assert that this does not occur in O at all. At best, one could argue that change in O is more glacial so that it is not perceptible. This is why O guys can shrug off agunos but also _can_ figure out great legal fictions such as how to bypass the prohibition against charging interest and convince you that it is in harmony with ‘halocho’.
The only comparison is that there can be honest disagreements about halacha. In the case of Satmar/Feinstein you’re perfectly willing to acknowledge this. Yet in the case of the conservatives, you immediately jump to “anyone who comes to a different halachic conclusion from me is simply ignoring halacha.”
On the chicken, my only point was that no one can, or should, uncritically accept the words of the rabbis.
The movement does not allow fake conversions. Clearly, we don’t do any conversions that we consider fake. Can we guarantee what is in a person’s heart? Of course not. All we can demand is that they tell us at the time of conversion that they intend to keep the mitzvot. That’s all the orthodox can do as well.
The siddur is not holy writ, and there are multiple texts. Clearly, we don’t know what the Great Assembly wrote.
I would guess that the movement allows men and women to mix for davening either because it does not accept the derivation of mechitzah, or because it knows of a heter in the Talmud, just as the Mishnah allows women to read from the Torah but says “such is not our custom.”
The issue really is, as you point out, whether or not one accepts autocratic rule of the rabbis. We believe that the law is understandable.
Puzzled,
Again, you’re equating halachic geniuses with conservatives. You seem to feel that anyone and everyone is on a level high enough to define Judaism and religious practice when you state the the law is “understandable”.
Well, let me ask you this: If the human brain is “understandable” to great neurosurgeon’s, does that mean that we should allow “Joe plumber” to perform brain surgery?
The Torah’s wisdom is endless. Great rabbis who had more knowledge in their toenail than most modern rabbis combined spent their entire studying it to various depths, and still couldn’t always come up with definite answers.
Now you expect people, who in comparison to these rabbis wisdom aren’t even apes, to render judgements and refute what these great rabbis had to say?
What qualifies any non observant sinner to make such judgements or statements?
In regard to fake conversions, I’m referring to any conversion done for insincere purposes (such as marriage) or where the convert clearly isn’t planning to keep Shabbat, kosher or other major laws. How much more fake can you get?
I know of cases where the clowns that call themselves conservative rabbis converted such individuals. I ask you, what purpose did they serve, besides fooling the convert and the families into believing they are Jewish? God forbid, the kids will grow up thinking they are Jewish and might actually marry other real Jews. Of course, according to them, who cares? Everyones Jewish if they feel Jewish, right?
In regards to mixed seating, all religious shuls over the centuries followed the mihag, which dates back to the beit hamikdash. Futhermore, a married womans uncovered hair is considered ervah, which would forbid anyone in sight of it from being allowed to daven.
After 3000 years, along comes Joe putz that has the nerve to call himself a rabbi, and decides that “we” don’t need this law anymore because it’s “outdated” and we liberals don’t believe in segregation.
Where do you draw the line? Are you now going to replace shechita with lethal injection because it;s more humane? Or maybe Shabbat with Sunday so we can watch the playoffs? Once you’re at it, get rid of matza, whole wheat pitas are easier to eat and digest.
What I’m getting at is that these reformed and conservative rabbis are “nobodies” and have no valid authority in Judaism. So they’ve decided to make their own bootleg copy where they can have authority and do as they please.
Reminds me of those clubs we had in first grade. Everyone wanted to be in the “cool” club. When the nerds got rejected, they made their own nerd clubs.
Phil – Even if you believe that the Reform or Conservative movements are damaging to the Jewish people, I think that you are wrong to attribute intentionality to the rabbis of the movement. Do you really think that Reform rabbis wake up in the morning and ask themselves, “What am I going to do to destroy Judaism today? How many innocent people will I convince are Jewish even though I know that they are not? What can I do to intentionally subvert Halacha to make it easier for me?”
Is it not more likely that they are devoted individuals who would like to help Jewish people find God and have simply come to a different conclusion that you have? Perhaps even the “wrong” conclusion?
I think the problem is not so much that you are fixed in your beliefs. Most of us are. The problem is that you can’t even imagine why someone who is well-meaning and knowledgeable would come to a different conclusion than the mainstream Orthodox.
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” – Aristotle
I always wanted to bang a reform rabbi (female only)
Kissme,
I don’t believe their intent is to destroy Judaism on purpose, but in essence that’s exactly what’s happening.
If I believe the tructh of the written and oral Torah, how do you expect me to accept that anything contrary is nothing but a bunch of lies?
Following that logic, should I then believe that perhaps the idol worshipping hindus or suicidal muslims might be right or have valid points?
Detracting from the law is 100% forbidden. Adding to it is only permissible in very specific instances, namely “building a fence around it”. When people calling themselves rabbis decide to detract from halacha, it is a clear sign that they aren’t following it, especially when it comes to basic fundamentals.
I realize we can go on endlessly debating this. In the long run, opinons are like assholes: everybody has one.
Hornball,
Get in touch with Jack, he might be able to hook you up.
Phil, you want me to accept your characterization of rabbis of the past and rabbis of the present on faith. Do you have any evidence as to why I should believe in this difference in wisdom?
The difference between a neurosurgeon and a plumber is that the neurosurgeon has undergone a specific course of study to do what he does. So has a rabbi. Then you ask why I should accept a conclusion reached by an unobservant person. First, that’s assuming exactly what you mean to prove. Second, I think R’Meir addressed that question.
Get in touch with Jack, he might be able to hook you up.
Philly, I am touched that you thought of me. Now if only you’d think about your wife some more. While you are out fishing so is she.
Joy,
Book burning is wrong. There is no excuse, period, end of story.
Hornball
I know an old wrinkled 93 year old female reform rabbi with a loose bladder and STDs, if you want to do “mitzvah night” with her she’s all yours(especially if you like cottage cheese)(sorry to all you folks that didn’t eat dinner yet,I just had to)
I heard the Pro-Reform argument that the problem othodox have with musical instuments on shabbat is that we might come to fix them if they break (wich all agree is assur,).It was argued that this is too far fetched of a scenario to ordain a rabinic decree, thus dismissing it as “silly”.True ,there is such a rabbinic decree ,however I believe the debater was misinformed of the halachic definition of “fixing”.”Fixing”an instument INCLUDES FINE TUNING IT THE SLIGHTEST DEGREE(i.e.tightening strings on a guitar)a situation VERY PRONE to occur during the course of playing an instrument.
“I don’t believe their intent is to destroy Judaism on purpose, but in essence that’s exactly what’s happening.”
To be frank, the tone of some of your posts suggests that you believe that the Reform rabbis are intentional destroying the Jewish people. Using terms like “charlatans,” saying that the Rambam would want them thrown in the pit, and saying that their families should throw a party when they die implies that you believing they are actively deceiving people.
Whether or not you’re correct in your estimation of the Reform movement’s impact on Judaism, I think it’s problematic to assume evil intent on any side.
“If I believe the tructh of the written and oral Torah, how do you expect me to accept that anything contrary is nothing but a bunch of lies?”
Of course if you believe it the written Torah, you will disagree with anything that is anti-thetical to the written Torah, or at least what is considered anti-thetical by the Orthodox mainstream. Nowhere did I say you had to agree with the Reform position.
“Following that logic, should I then believe that perhaps the idol worshipping hindus or suicidal muslims might be right or have valid points?”
Again, I never said you had to agree with everyone or even think that everyone has a valid point.
Incidentally there is a big difference between suicidal Muslims and idol-worshipping Hiindus or Reform Jewis.
“I don’t believe their intent is to destroy Judaism on purpose, but in essence that’s exactly what’s happening.”
To be frank, the tone of some of your posts suggests that you believe that the Reform rabbis are intentional destroying the Jewish people. Using terms like “charlatans,” saying that the Rambam would want them thrown in the pit, and saying that their families should throw a party when they die implies that you believing they are actively deceiving people.
Whether or not you’re correct in your estimation of the Reform movement’s impact on Judaism, I think it’s problematic to assume evil intent on any side.
“If I believe the tructh of the written and oral Torah, how do you expect me to accept that anything contrary is nothing but a bunch of lies?”
Of course if you believe it the written Torah, you will disagree with anything that is anti-thetical to the written Torah, or at least what is considered anti-thetical by the Orthodox mainstream. Nowhere did I say you had to agree with the Reform position.
“Following that logic, should I then believe that perhaps the idol worshipping hindus or suicidal muslims might be right or have valid points?”
Again, I never said you had to agree with everyone or even think that everyone has a valid point.
Incidentally there is a big difference between suicidal Muslims and idol-worshipping Hiindus or Reform Jewis. I don’t think you mean to compare them, but just sayin’.
Puzzled,
Just as a Neurosurgeon undergoes training, so too, the rabbis of yesteryear received smicha from generation to generation dating back to Moshe Rabbeinu.
Once this real smicha stopped and Jews were dispersed, the general rabbinic knowledge level sank. There were a few exceptions to the rule, such as Rashi and Rambam to name a few. Read their works in depth an you’ll begin to understand their vast amount of wisdom and knowledge.
Today’s rabbis dont compare, all the more so when you’re referring to so called reformed rabbis, who’s ordination isn’t worth the paper it’s written on in a smicha context. They’ve hijacked the terms. I think they should be referred to as ordained ministers of reformed Judaism or some other fruity name of that sort.
Again, I’m not saying that all this is being done with evil intent, nevertheless, it’s still being done.
The Rambam is a good example, actually – how many people wanted his books banned for his importing of goyish, idol-worshipping philosophers?
As regards smicha from Moshe, again, did you ever play telephone as a child? Do you really want to make correct transmission over generations the rock-bottom of your religion?
(Furiously scribbling) Wow, I’m getting so many leads, this is great!!!
Thanks for the lead Philly, but I think this same-gender business with Jack will kind of get between us (in more ways than one) so I’m going to have to pass with you. But do you know any hottie female rabbis? It always seems like they’re librarian-ish. And Bsamim Smoker, the 93 year old chick (or aged hen really) isn’t for me, so I’m going to pass on her and Jack.
Puzzled,
I’m not aware of the Rambam “importing idol worshipping philosophers” not sure what you a referring to. Some Rabbis banned the Mishneh Torah because he didn’t state his sources. They were worried about people taking his rulings out of context, so they forbade his study without the underlying talmudic texts.
The “broken telephone” is far better than what you’re proposing, i.e. rewriting anything to suit your needs. Besides, I don’t think they had much trouble with their “phone line”.
Besides, I don’t think they had much trouble with their “phone line”
You can’t afford to think that they did because it would rock your world and completely destroy your ability to believe.
But what if they got some of it wrong. It is not that far fetched. Things happen, people lisp, mutter and mumble. Things get misunderstood and mistranslated.
:faints in shock, landing on the grave of gensfleisch gutenberg:
I think the numbers say it all – Reform, Conservative, and unaffiliated Jews assimilate at extremely high rates, making Orthodoxy the fastest (and only) growing sect in Judaism. Who is right or wrong, or what is the best Judaism becomes irrelevant over time since the victor writes history. And in this case, it’ll be the Orthodox Jews. Victory at a huge price, though – millions of Jews lost to assimilation.
Phil, really, you aren’t aware of anyone objecting to the Rambam borrowing from Greek philosophy? You never noticed that his philosophy comes from Aristotle?
Now, the idea that they had no telephone problems is odd, to say the least. The Mishnah was compiled from scrolls written by students. The Gemorrah routinely responds to textual problems in the Mishnah by saying “oh, well, maybe the Mishnah mixed up which tanna said what…if we reverse them it all makes more sense.” So it seems the Gemorrah had less faith in the transmission than you do.
@Puzzled: This is why, I’m told, that many Yeshivot out there consider the entire first book of the Mishne Torah, “Sefer Mada” to be bittul torah. Sure, there are some important sections, such as hilchot teshuva, but a good deal of it is discussing Aristotelian science (or his take on it, he changed around the parts that blatantly contradict Judaism, esp. his Metaphysics). One of my favorite Rabbis said that he once was reading through Hilchot Teshuva when a Sho’el U’mayshiv slammed it shut and told him it’s bittul torah. He asked “if it’s bittul torah, then why did the Rambam include it in his Yad Chazzakah, his treatise on halakha?” The Sho’el U’mayshiv looked taken aback for a second, and then answered “just don’t read it…”
But as far as the stuff that he lifted from Aristotle, much of that comes in the Moreh Nevuchim. Or even goyyish studies in general: much of his reasons for doing mitzvot are some backlash against Avodah Zara in one form or another. He said that he’s studied Avodah Zara practices from around the world, and worked out a system on how many mitzvot are simply to keep us away from Avodah Zara practices. It is argued why in the Mishne Torah he says that we should not question mitzvot, and why in the Moreh Nevuchim he attempts to give reasons. The best answer I’ve heard (and I forget whose it was) is that the Mishne Torah gives the real halachik answer (that in truth we don’t know), but the Moreh is him attempting to preach to a less frum crowd by saying “if I had to give a reason to do mitzvot, this is how I’d go about doing it”.
And yeah, of course his philosophy would rely on Aristotle. At the time, many goyyish philosophers did. He wouldn’t be the first Jew to systemize such a philosophy (I think Philo of Alexandria was). But Rambam has a more overtly lasting effect on the halachik world than Philo. Philo, at best, was a possible influence on some of the early Kabbalist (cf. Gershom Scholem, “Kabbalah”, which I am currently in the middle of, who discusses at length the similarities between Kabbalah and neo-Platonism).
Puzzled,
The only I know of where the Rambam mentions Greek ideas is regarding astronomy, which wasn’t necessarily one of his strong points.
Again, Im not famialiar with all of his writings, only Mishneh Torah.
The gemara was written 300 years after the last of the “broken telephone” chain were gone. That is why you start seeing arguments and confusion. Still, they all had one thing in common: The observance of the law, not the blatant disregard for it from the movement this post is about.
Thanks ghost. That was informative.
Phil, I think our conversation is about out of steam. I can’t think of anything else to say to the continued “disregard” arguments.
Why are there no hot reform rabbis? Maybe someone should do a post about that?
This is my first visit to this site. I chose a fascinating thread to start with. I am not sure we are the greatest people in the world because we are having this debate online and not with bombs, or among the worst, because of unbelievable sinat chinam on every side of the argument.
making Orthodoxy the fastest (and only) growing sect in Judaism
That is not entirely accurate and highly questionable.
That is not entirely accurate and highly questionable.
I have to agree. If you include non-Jews in the Reform (since “everyone” is welcome), then they are the fastest growing, and second largest next to unaffiliated.
Who’s taking the orthoprax census, and who will say they never have a moment of doubt? :devil:
Hornball
Why don’t you just ask your local Reform rabbi.I’m sure you can work out some kinda deal like: you blow my shofar I blow your shofar.
Hornball,
Back when I was in upsate NY in yeshiva about 20 years, we walked into a reform place one Friday night, their rabbi was hot. Of course, we were 16 and in a boys school at the time, so anything with a miniskirt was hot. Still, she must have been in her 30s and dressed to kill. She saw us and invited us in. We were temtped, but declined and left as some of the fummer guys started with the “we’re not allowed to walk in” thing. Talk about an effective outreach program
Phil,
It’s true, when you’re a 16 year old bocher, you’re so desperate you’d bang a plant. But still, maybe she still retained some of her looks? She was probably a MILF back then (now she may be a GILF ( or more accurately, a RILF )).
Bsamim, you may be onto something there! I like the way you’re thinking (i.e., perverted)!
Will your grandchildren be Jewish? If you are Orthodox, most probably. If you are Reform, Conservative, or unaffiliated, most probably not. The intermarriage rates don’t lie. http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/WillYourGrandchildrenBeJews/
@Puzzled
I was just reading today about Sa’adya Ga’on doing the same thing in his day to the prominent Muslim philosophy.
Some would say that the closest thing today’s generation had was J.B. Soloveichik with his PhD in Hermann Cohn’s neo-Kantian ethics. Of course, the YU contingency will insist that despite this, his shiurim were pure, straight up Brisker torah, he would refuse to discuss any limudei chol in his shiur. Rabbi Herschel Reichman once told me about a time that The Rav’s own son in law, Rav Aaron Lichtenstein, tried bringing up a poem by Milton during shiur. The Rav paused for one second, said “maybe”, and then continued what he was saying, practically disregarding the Milton. From what Rav Reichman said, The Rav would normally be glad to hear about Milton, but not during shiur.
welcome to the post denominational future!
(Sarna and Lamm can go on their demographical debates until they’re blue in the face… but I predict these labels will be largely irrelevant to the next generation)
dude check out the carlebach minyan by the kotel or tzfat davening doesnt have 2 be rigid
Anonymous – that’s my point, why do I have to travel 6000 miles to daven?
wow 200 comments totally unexpected
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