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I davened with a reform minyan and loved it!

239 comments

The title is misleading, because technically there wasn’t a minyan, since there were only about 7 men and twice that in women.

I spent this shabbos at the Isabella Freedman center in northwestern Connecticut, and had a lovely time, partially and I know people are going to bitch and moan right now, due to the fact that Congregation Beth El a reform shul in Park Slope was renting out the retreat center. My friend is the mashgiach there and in the past I had a friend who did the Adamah fellowship (of which I contemplated doing many times – but never could get how I could afford to just not make anything for 3 months)

Growing up frum taught me many things, one of which was the fact that the Reform and Conservative movements were loads of crap and that they were wrong and everything they did was sinful and so on. I have had this concept drilled into my head from all angles, from the yeshiva community, from my family and from my peers, and this weekend opened my mind a little bit.

I have been attracted to open orthodoxy for some time, probably since I heard Rabbi Avi Weiss speak at the University of Albany several years back, but in more recent times because I have been in a exploratory stage (not because I resent the frum community at large – but because my ideals and philosophies are not regarded at all, except for in Israel) I myself have always been the type to join multiple communities and sects rather than just be in one of them, hence the reason I could never become chabad like so many people think I am. I think every community, including Reform, Conservative, Renewal, Egalitarian etc, have something to offer. Am I wrong for thinking this?

In my world, this is complete heresy, I don’t know why? After all, if these groups are wrong and not practicing, “real” Judaism, I should see this and come back home right? Today I experienced my first reform minyan and I enjoyed it immensely. Part of what I enjoyed so much was watching the enjoyment of those davening or connecting or whatever you want to call it. There was a woman playing guitar and lots of singing, it felt great to fin ally go to shul and see everyone participating and everyone happy. Besides for the Carlebach shul or shuls in Israel, it seems that most people see shul as a chore. I was once asked by someone to ponder this question “would you rather be in shul or at work? The fact that I hesitated was pretty startling on my part, but I wonder how many people really enjoy going to shul and actually get something out of it.

Don’t get me wrong, I have been in shuls where I have felt a connection, but that is rare. I particularly am attracted to old shuls which show the survival of Judaism, I love the old shul in Woodridge, NY and most recently I went to a poetry reading at the Stanton Street Shul on the lower east side which kind of felt like one of those shuls where we would go to hole up in during a pogrom. But those weren’t connections through the davening, they were of place, is that counted? What is counted anyway?

I could go all Frum Satire on you and explain to you why these people were enjoying the service so much. They could wear whatever they wanted, I was in shorts and a nice shirt, they didn’t have to daven the whole thing, they sat together (outside of orthodoxy its not really a big deal) and they had good singing rather then rushing through a bunch of prayers with mumbling. In frum shuls everything is so routine and done all the time that we hardly notice, I would be willing to bet that these people rarely make it to shul. No one was talking and the kids present were good and quiet, such a rarity.

Everyone connects on their own level and I connected today, I know some of you may think I am an apikores – which is not really possible because I am an am-haaretz, but still I really enjoyed myself and thought all about Shabbat and the service and all that honky dory stuff.

Then again, am I even supposed to be having a connection in shul? Or is it just this servitude/blind faith, belief stuff that I hear all the time in code words like halacha moshe Mi-Sinai or Takoo?

  • http://twitter.com/joann_betschart Joann Betschart

    I’m glad you had a positive experience at a non-O shul. As a female Conservative Jew-by-choice, I thank you for saying something good about us. ;) I agree — there’s something to be gained from most faiths. Most faiths aim for the same thing, if you ask me — an ordered society with a set of ground rules and accountability. If more of us could focus on that and not on what we call G-d or how we worship, the world would be a better place. /airyfairy

  • Monkeycher

    Orthodox Judaism has a huge problem with the way it views connecting to Hashem. I can’t speak for G-d, but I’d venture to say that He prefers people connecting to Him in a genuine, emotional, slightly less-than-traditional-way in the middle of Connecticut than a robotic mumbling of traditional liturgy in someone’s basement in Brooklyn. Those people who pick and choose their way through a siddur to the tune of a guitar may not be doing exactly what G-d wants, but I’d assume that they’re at least making more of an effort to understand what they’re saying.
    Musical instruments on Shabbos are unheard of in Orthodox Judaism, but they were a staple in the Beit Hamikdash, even on the Sabbath. The shir shel yom was sung each day of the week. Obviously Hashem wants us to serve Him with song and music. The only reason Orthodox Jews don’t worship through music on Shabbos today is because they “may come to fix the instrument” if it breaks. (I can’t say why it’s not done during the week). A lot of the stringencies placed on us by our sages really take the flavor out of Judaism as it was practiced in the Beit Hamikdash. I’d rather not piss off G-d, so I’ll admit that they probably knew what they were doing and so I’m not going to throw away their rules, but it’s tragic that we’re left with a dry, overstuffed form of a religion that should be so much more.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    Spoken like a true liberal, but I kind of want to get into making fun of different sects in Judaism besides orthodoxy and conservative and reform Jews seem like the best targets.

  • http://www.motti36.blogspot.com Motti Wein

    Tagar brought R’ Avi Weiss to speak–glad it made a big impact!

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    Monkey – Is there a reason we don’t use musical instruments now, but used them then?

  • A YID

    The reform Temple that I saw many years ago had music, both an organ and a non Jewish choir. I assume it was to make their prayer services more churchlike, not to copy the musical instruments in the Bais Hamikdosh and the Levyim singing.

  • m00kie

    your connection to g-d is what you make it. it’s not the instruments or the location or the yapping of those around you. any environment can be conducive to connecting once you make the choice to connect -its just easier to follow through on that choice when you’re in a different environment than the one youre used to.

  • ghottistyx

    The Village Temple on 13th st. has a traditional Reform service once a month. I haven’t been, but I’ve been told they actually bring in a pipe organ and everything. Having learned in Jewish History about how the early Reformers were trying to make the Synagogue more like a Church, I’ve been meaning to go sometime, but never have made my way down. Normally, they’re a Liberal Conserv. sect with a female cantor (she’s really nice, we spoke at length during the kiddush), and the world’s only female Dutch Rabbi. The Rabbi, being a bit more old school Conserv. has been meaning to do away with the Reform service, but the members of the congregation like it too much. So yes, the service I went to had the guitar, flute, and cantor. I hate to say that most of the kids there looked completely like it was a task for them to be there; but many of the adults were quite into it. It’s also the first time I’ve seen the Rabbi get into a cab when the minyan was over.

  • Josh

    If non-orthodox shul is so much fun why aren’t there daily minyanim in their temples, why aren’t their children joining in on the ‘fun’, and most importantly perhaps if it’s fun your seeking I suppose after services there are many enterainment venues available. ( for ideas just ask ) can’t sacred not be a total blast yet integral ?

  • Kyle

    Let’s be real, though…Reform congregations (at least those I’ve visited) grill up cheeseburgers after the Friday night service. Sure, Reform has its ups, but let’s not pretend it can offer an enhanced Jewish connection…It may be spiritual, but I’d be cautious in saying it’s Jewish.

  • chosid

    Yiddishkeit gives everyone the opportunity to connect to Hashem. That’s the point. But it’s not supposed to be easy or simple. Change up your learning occasionally and see if you won’t find something inspiring.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    If non-orthodox shul is so much fun why aren’t there daily minyanim in their temples

    There are in all of the Conservative shuls that I have been a part of. And in 40 years I have been involved with quite a few.

    If you don’t daven with kavana then why daven at all.

  • http://www.pricebonus.com/ PB

    Spoken like a true liberal, but I kind of want to get into making fun of different sects in Judaism besides orthodoxy and conservative and reform Jews seem like the best targets.

  • Lakewood Machmir

    Apikores(Whoops I meant Frum Satire)
    How did you like the after shul orgy.Did you shtup the rabbi from the front or from the back?

  • Lakewood Machmir

    When I went to the reform minyan, I shtupped the rabbi from behind. It was awesome!!

  • Puzzled

    I’m very impressed by the display of “religiosity” by a few posters who so ably demonstrate to us the virtues of loving our neighbor. Why, Lakewood Machmir loves reform Jews so much he sleeps with them! What ahavas yisroal!

    For real – how absurd can you be? The inability to differentiate the eating of a cheeseburger from an orgy is one of the least appealing traits of many orthodox. Another is the apparent belief that orgies and cheeseburgers are far, far worse than unethical treatment of others.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    Puzzled – I knew this would be the reaction, I have been told for years that irreligious Jews aren’t really Jewish and are evil people. They are not reform, they are deformed.

  • Eliyahu HaNavi

    Oh boy…reform minyanim are so much fun!

    In all seriousness though, reform services feel exactly like the liberal Christian Protestant services I grew up with (before the whole Judaism thing), but the references to Jesus were removed. I can definitely say I don’t miss that part of my religious life.

    Orthodox services may be a bit more dry, but there’s comfort in knowing you’re doing things according to halakha.

    This is a seperate issue, but my only problem with Orthodox services is the mechitza. I’m a man, so I like praying with a mechitza, as it allows me to more effectively combat my ADD/concentrate on what I’m supposed to. I just wish there was a way to halakhically include the women so that I could still daven with all men and concentrate but the women didn’t feel like they were getting the shaft.

    Can’t wait to see what lakewood machmir has to say about this one…

    • Arel ben Arel

      Eliyahu HaNavi,

      In many old shuls, as well as most sefardic shuls in Israel that I have been to, women simply sit on a balcony, or second floor level.
      It is men who need the mechitza, not women. Women are allowed to look at men all they want, so they are not at all excluded, just shielded from us :-)

  • Ken

    I didn’t even know reformers had minyans. Go figure!

    I had a reform friend at one time. He mainly wanted to talk halacha when he was drunk so when I stumped him, he could just blame it on being drunk. He’s in rehab now.

  • Joy

    Hesh- You can do whatever you want-I asked my father who is a noted talmid chochom (He learns and has a business-gasp!) He told me that it is assur to daven or even to go into a reform or conservative temple.You are not allowed to even answer amen to any of their brachos and if a conservative or a reform person wrote a sefer torah you are allowed to burn it.Before all of you jump down my throat-my father and he spoke to alot of big Rabbonim about this issue as i have conservative relatives when they have simchas we can’t go if they have any services in their temples-this is due to the fact that according to Halacha any thing to do with Refom and conservatives are considered apikorsim!I never said the people who are conservative or reform are apikorsim.I said the whole reform and conservative ideology is apikorsus.This is because it says in the Torah you shouldn’t add/take away.Conservatisim and Reform are kind of their own religon.Do noy yell at me facts are facts so deal with them.I have no problem with Jews who are conservative and reform I have a problem with their ideologies and their beliefs.

    I agree with you that shuls in America on occaion are a bit boring.There is no singing their kiddushim tend to be not so great.I have relatives inSouth Africa and I went there -They know the true meaning of running a shul.The Rav’s speech was uplifting, they have a choir with people who sing on tune,everyone is so warm and inviting, they have a wonderfull milchig kiddush every shabbos after davening, and they are a frum shul.There is no Simchas hachayim in America period.Sometimes I close my eyes and going to shul in South Africa brings back wonderfull memories.

    I am not here trying to be a critic I am bringing you facts!AGAIN I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH CONSERVATIVE AND REFORM PEOPLE AS PEOPLE_I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THEIR IDEOLOGY BECAUSE THE TORAH HAS A PROBLEM WITH IT SO DON”T JUMP DOWN MT THROAT AND MISQUOTE ME! you can do whatever you like it is your life!

  • Ilana

    Kyle- no reform, conservative, or even reconstructionist synagogue i’ve visited would dream of “grilling up cheeseburgers” after services. some who are less observant may eat non-kosher at home, but to bring treyf into a reform synagogue is, at least in my experience absolutely forbidden.

    • Abbushuki

      Ilana: You are sadly mistaken. I witnessed a major American reform temple where they had 3 b’nai mitzvot and a wedding on a shabbat. The afternoon reception using the lobby for the buffet, served shrimp.
      The temple cooks knew absolutely nothing about ‘kashrut’ and there was no hint of any concern in that area. Reform by its nature has no Jewish Law. It renounced it a very long time ago. There is only ‘tradition’. Each rabbi self-decides how much or little ‘tradtion’ he/she wants for their temple, unless the board makes that decision. You may be confusing ‘conservative’ with reform. BTW: Conservative Temples, for the most part say they are kosher: but they nullified rules of their choosing: e.g. OK to cook on Shabbat, for a non-Jew to do all the cooking and that certain wines need not be certified kosher, etc.

      • Hineni

        I would like Abbushuki to provide the name of the Reform temple in which he observed what he claims to have observed and also to explain what he was doing there. It might be nice for him also to explain his problem with 3 b’nai mitzvot on Shabbat — maybe that it’s a sign of Reform’s success?

        Regardless of anyone’s personal opinion of what constitutes authentic Judaism, both the American and the Israeli Jewish communities have “voted with their feet” to demonstrate that it is not so-called Orthodox Judaism, with its inconsistencies, legal fictions to permit that which it has itself declared impermissible, mindless davening instead of meaningful worship, and the list goes on.

        Refugees from Orthodoxy (like me) differ from many of the Orthodox commenters in the blogosphere in that we respect the precept eilu v’eilu divrei elohim chayim. Halacha, from the Hebrew word for walking, suggests that there should be forward movement, and clearly there are many paths to the ultimate destination.

        Abbushuki was probably hallucinating in what he thought he saw (or more likely that some other hallucinator reported to him), but even intelligent and informed people can hallucinate. Too bad he is neither intelligent nor informed.

  • Bsamim Smoker

    I will never say a bad word about non-othodox shuls.I would say about 8 years ago I was in dire straits for some money.I contacted a conservative congragation about my situation, after a pretty easy intervew I got me a %0 interest $5ooo loan with a very liberal repayment plan .I am not bashing the hariedim but keep that story in mind.

  • Kyle

    Fair, Ilana…I’m not saying all reform congregations serve meat with dairy, or that they’re evil. I do think they’re an insult to Judaism, though. In my experience, reform especially has been protestant Christianity without the Christ, Judaism without halakha, a sing-a-long service to facilitate socialization. Perhaps we’ve had different experiences.

  • Bsamim Smoker

    Anouther thing to point out. It seem nowadays the conservative and reform shuls are just basically Intro to Judism 101 and not really heraidi bashing apikorzim. If you want to know about real apikorsim ask your zaydes about the arbit shulah back in old school Poland and Germany .These were hard core Apikores Universities the students o knew TANACH and SHAS cold(arguably better than some contemparary rosh yeshivas)and had very highly intelligent debates that most university professors would envy.
    Lakewood Machmir-Your an ingnorant moron, get off the internet before I rat you out to R’Mattisyahu Solomon.

  • Bsamim Smoker

    and tell your wife were you REALLY were last shabbos.Unless you hold of Pelegesh.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    if a conservative or a reform person wrote a sefer torah you are allowed to burn it

    And people ask why the Temple was destroyed. This sort of narishkeit is a big part of it. I don’t get crazy like some of my friends because I truly don’t care whether some Frum people or all Frum people think that I am a kofer.

    I know far too many FFBs who can’t think for themselves and are unable to go to the bathroom without consulting their rav first.

    How many follow minhagim as if it came from min hashamayim and then point their fingers and cluck their tongues at those who do not.

    To be clear I have many had many positive experiences and have a lot of respect for frumkeit, far more than is usually sent the other direction.

    Intolerant, clannish and cultlike are not terms that you want people to use to describe you and sadly that describes far too many black hatters.

    Say what you want about us but no woman is ever going to be afraid to ride one a bus with us or walk down the street.

    In fact, if there is a problem with some men harassing a woman for not being tzniusdik enough it is probably us who will step into help her.

    We’re not sheep.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    There really are no facts when it comes to how to practice Judaism, halachically or not. Jewish practice is all one big gray area, Joy you actually sound evil.

  • http://www.twitter.com/susqhb Susanne

    Firstly, Kyle, in agreement with Ilana. No Reform shul I’ve ever been to would ever serve cheeseburgers in the shul. That statement is full of crap. They all have some semblance of kosher to their own standards and thats not for me to judge. To each person in their own place.

    Joy said her Talmud Chachim father said we are not allowed to even answer amen to any Reform or Conservative person’s brachos. For real? We can’t say amen to a Jew’s bracha? Yeah, thats the way to bring Moshiach.

    Statements like these are what is turning people away from observance. Pushing them to other denominations. If they think all Orthos think like this, why would they ever want to do more? Be more? Come on people.

  • Bracha

    It’s one thing to disagree with how non-Orthodox Jews choose to practice Judaism. But it’s a totally different thing to speak lashon hara and to be so judgemental about others who are different from ourselves. Show me in our beloved Torah where it says that these things are permitted.

    Sounds like Heshy is all treifed up now that he’s “been over to the dark side”…maybe we should bury him in the backyard until he is kosher again.

  • http://imabima.blogspot.com phyllis

    how can i not put my 2 shekels in here?

    Heshy, I was very impressed with this posting from you (and your comments, especially about Judaism’s gray areas) because I thought it was open-minded, fair, and interesting. I think we all need a chance to step out of our own boundaries and share ideas. Look, let’s be realistic – the ancient rabbis were themselves Reformers when they had to figure out how to maintain a religion outside of the Temple in exile. Judaism grows and changes throughout the generations and what we now consider to be “orthodox” is in fact a multitude of different modes and styles. Even within the frum community, I know, there are differences of opinion about worship, dress, kashrut, etc.

    Some of these comments make me sad – I’m with Susanne and Jack – we all want the same thing in the End – a peaceful, good world, full of humans helping others make the world a better place.

    I guess it gets us all talking out here in the blogosphere, tho, doesn’t it????

  • anon

    The Reform synagogue I attend maintains a kosher kitchen and serves kosher food, and when they’re doing a potluck, they tell you if you should bring a dairy or non-dairy side dish. Probably most of the people do not keep an actual kosher kitchen at home, so basically … if you eat milchigs out, you can eat at the potluck, but if you don’t, you might not want to. But they would never serve cheeseburgers. The rabbi’s position is that you should not eat treif, but if you don’t, that’s between you and G-d, not you and him.

  • anon

    That last should be, … “if you do, that’s between you and G-d …”

  • http://rabbifink.wordpress.com Eliyahu Fink

    It is a beautiful thing to learn from everyone. Chazal teach us: Eizehu Chacham HaLomed MiKol Adam. Frum Jews have a lot to learn from a lot of different people, cultures and religions.

    We can all learn from each other, I hope that reform Jews are also willing to learn from “Orthodox” Jews sacrifices for halacha and commitment to all 613 mitzvos as well.

    We all want a peaceful world, but we are also concerned about our relationship with God.

    God has told us how to achieve that relationship. If there is too much “reforming or reconstructing” of His instructions, we lose the relationship.

    We all need to be careful with regards to our relationship with God, that is what makes us special.

  • http://offthed.blogspot.com offthederech

    I think religion is all evil, so the less you have of it, the better.

    Lakewood Machmir is a complete a–hole.

    Bsamim Smoker, if they give out loans, I just might join a Conservative synagogue myself:).

  • kissmei’mshomer

    This was a beautiful post.
    I know some will argue, “But it’s not what Hashem wants! It doesn’t matter how beautiful it is! Hashem rather something less beautiful done the RIGHT way!”
    I used to believe that too, at least to an extent, but I’m not sure anymore… I certainly don’t think Hashem is very pleased with the way I daven in my Orthodox shul.

  • Puzzled

    Well, in reference to Joy – if the argument is “don’t add or take away” why aren’t many or most (or all) orthodox shuls assur as well? Don’t add to it, don’t depart to the left or the right – but it’s perfectly fine to layer chumra on chumra and denounce anyone who doesn’t follow you. It’s perfectly acceptable, it seems, to find ways to make anything healthy assur – and to politicize kosher certifications. It’s ok to decide that any brand of food that’s health and reasonably priced – Amy’s, for instance – is “not reliable” and to insist that everyone eat expensive unhealthy products with “local, heimishe” certifications. I say if you can’t go into a shul identified with an ideology with addition or subtraction, you can’t go into an orthodox shul.

    What, precisely, has conservative subtracted? What they’ve done is not added what orthodoxy decided to add, and they focus on Torah rather than autocratic rulers. Sounds about right to me.

  • Monkeycher

    Wow, a lot has gone on since I last posted.
    To answer Heshy’s question to the best of my ability, I’ll start off by saying that I haven’t done any research for this, and anything I’m saying is based on stuff I’ve picked up over the years. (Therefore, if you know more about this, feel free to pipe in).
    Since the destruction of the Holy Temple (most sects of) Jews have made sure to keep reminders around of what we are missing. We break a glass under the chuppah, we leave a spot unpainted on our walls, etc. One of the things the sages ruled was that it was inappropriate to listen to music in this post-Temple time of mourning. There are various opinions about to what extent this should be taken, with the most stringent to my knowledge being that in the Old City of Jerusalem today there are usually no instruments with the exception of a drum playing at wedding receptions.
    Putting two and two together, I’d venture to say that playing music during services is along the same lines. Perhaps the sages vetoed the trumpets and lyres of the Temple until it is rebuilt.

  • Mark

    FS – Is there a reason we don’t use musical instruments now, but used them then?

    Of course! It’s because we are more frum than they were.

    1/2 :-) 1/2 :-(

  • Anonymous

    To all those who are insisting that no Reform temple would serve cheeseburgers….

    I grew up Reform. True, I don’t remember any cheeseburgers being served–but nobody had any problem with a brisket dinner with cheesecake for dessert, or (my favorite example) putting bits of bacon in the coleslaw.

    Reform simply does not practice Judaism. Conservative, for the most part, doesn’t either, though I do know some shomer Shabbos/shomer kashrus/etc. Conservative Jews and I consider them observant.

  • m00kie

    kissmei’mshomer – so daven in your orthodox shul the way you think would please Him.

    frumsatire – again i have to say this, but most of the cricitisim you have about orthodoxy relates to ashkenaz, not sfardi. ive never heard of anyone complain that a sfardi shul is dry or boring or disconnected.
    orthodox doesnt equal ashkenaz.

  • Mark

    Joy – This is because it says in the Torah you shouldn’t add/take away. Conservatisim and Reform are kind of their own religion. Do not yell at me facts are facts so deal with them.I have no problem with Jews who are conservative and reform I have a problem with their ideologies and their beliefs.

    The exact same thing can be said (and is said by me) about Charedism. They are constantly adding to the Torah (some of the things they add are good and perhaps even important, but many of the things they add are bad and harmful). Always remember that Yakov didn’t meet Rachel via a shidduch, and nor did many of the Gedolim or the children of the gedolim meet their spouses via a shidduch.

  • CDawnR

    I think it all comes down to the problem of seeing groups rather than individuals. Not all frummies think of reform and conservative congregations as evil. People trying to insulate themselves teach things like this and I think it is very sad because it is hurting all of us.

    Just a note on the kashrut in reform shul debate. In the town I grew up in, it was a known and confirmed fact that they served shrimp in the Temple. Um, I do believe we should draw some lines….

  • amarg

    theres a gay and lesbiene shul in dallas.i think you should go into it undercover and then write an article about it

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    There is no such thing as a reformed shul or minyan. They are temples, and davening there is assur even if you have a minyan of frum people (happened to me, we davened outside).

    They are not considered apikorsim, as they generally haven’t learned enough to be considered apikorsim. Only their so called rabbis should be held responsable.

    I can’t imagine going to a place where the so called rabbi has no problem officiating at an interfaith wedding or calling a goy up to the Torah, things which sadly happen every day.

    The heads of these temples are no better than jews for jesus or other cults that prey on unsuspecting or unlearned mainstream Jews. They cater to the feeling of singing in Hebrew, using Jewish icons such as magen david, kiddush, shabbat candles, yet they preach ideas completely contrary to the Torah. These are all missionary tactics used to draw people in, get them to drop their guard, then sell them a fraudulaent idea.

    I previously quoted the Rambam rulings and sources (in another post) regarding such individuals, where he says it is a mitzva to throw them in a pit and not remove them. Furthermore, in the laws of mourning, he says that when people such as the heads of these organizations die, the family members should throw a party instead of mourning.

    Hesh,

    Nothing funny about attending these places, reminds me of that time you went to church.
    It doesn’t make you any more liberal to attend these, it is simply assur.

    What’s next? A post on how much fun it is to drive to the beachon Shabbos, or maybe how good treif steaks are?

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    Reform simply does not practice Judaism. Conservative, for the most part, doesn’t either, though I do know some shomer Shabbos/shomer kashrus/etc. Conservative Jews and I consider them observant.

    Anon,

    Thank you, that is so kind. I have this warm fuzzy feeling now because I needed your validation. Not that you provide any sort of facts, just a few random remarks.

    That is ok, I consider you to be observant too, but not in a Jewish way. ;)

  • Anon

    Joy is right, no matter how many of you dislike hearing it. Sorry.

    And Hesh, after this one, you have to remove the “frum” part of the website name. It’s totally assur and against halacha to attend a reform temple. Not telling you what to do, but no matter how “spiritual” you feel or whatever, it’s still forbidden.

    I won’t be visiting again, have a nice life.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    Phil,

    Most of us don’t care if you think that we are Jewish.

    You know what is really telling, that no one jumped on this remark:

    if a conservative or a reform person wrote a sefer torah you are allowed to burn it.

    Congratulations, you have joined the ranks of the Nazis, Romans and a bunch of other schmucks who murder all Jews. Yes, all Jews, even those who have a stick shoved so far up their tuchus they can’t see straight anymore.

    Phil,

    You spout off about things like you know what is going on, but you really don’t. Your ignorance is so apparent to those of us who know better it is not even funny.

    Blanket statements like

    I can’t imagine going to a place where the so called rabbi has no problem officiating at an interfaith wedding

    are just foolish beyond belief. There are some rabbis who do that, but it is not the majority or even close to that.

    I know a lot of frum people who claim that they are going to save Judaism but can’t seem to grasp that they are in the minority. And given the nature of the Jewish Taliban looks like they will be that way for a long time to come.

    Watch out Phil, I am going to say a Bracha in your honor. What do you think is going to happen, my Conservative cooties going to make you sick. ;)

  • Homey

    “if a conservative or a reform person wrote a sefer torah you are allowed to burn it.”

    I don’t think that’s true, I think you HAVE to burn it. The anti-Torah venom is inherent in the letters.

    If one decides some mitzvos are just “not for me” and I can pick and choose which G-d given commandments I want, that’s anti-Torah. Sorry Jack, I know the truth hurts and you may not feel comfortable, but that’s a logical fact. You can’t have it both ways.

  • Janet

    Music on shabbat: the Temple, they were allowed to violate rabbinic laws, so that’s why the Leviim were allowed to play music.

    Reform synagogues vary in kashrut standards. There’s actually a debate every year at annual Reform synagogue convention whether to serve kosher or not. If they served kosher meat, that would upset the old style Reform and if they served non-kosher meat that would upset the new style more observant Reform. They get around it by serving fish.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    Homey,

    You didn’t prove anything other than you want to be part of a Jewish Taliban. Dude, that doesn’t bother me. You’re a minority within a minority.

    When the antisemites go looking for Jews to burn they take you, they take me, they take all of us.

    The real truth is that you haven’t a leg to stand on here because if you did you would have provided more than that.

    You want to deal with history, let’s deal with history. Want to live like an Essene, so be it. At least have the integrity to say that is what you are doing.

    Can you provide a logical explanation for why you are Jewish other than you happened to be born a Jew.

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Jack,

    Fact is that anyone going to a reformed temple is supporting the organized destruction of the Jewish religion. I understand most reformed or conservative don’t realize or care that they are doing so, that doesn’t make me have to love what they do.

    I know of many cases that have personally touched our family where we now have cousins that think they are Jews when they actually aren’t. I even know of non Jews that think they are Cohanim! All thanks to the reformed / conservative charlatan’s that took a few bucks to tell them they were Jewish even though they can’t read aleph beis and know absolutely nothing about halacha.

    No wonder our sages viwed these people as worse than idol worshipping gentiles.

    You want to ignore Torah, that’s bad enough. You want to have your friends transgress, that’s worse. But to try to justify you non observance of halacha into your own version of the religion is an open insult to the Torah and our religion, and an invitaion for other deviants such as yourself to join your sick cause.

    Sorry I’m not politically correct enough for your liberated ideas, but Judaism is in peril. Your people contribute to Judaism’s death by assimilation that has spiritually destroyed as many, maybe even more Jews than the holocaust.

    As for justifying that only “some” refomers accepts interfaith marriage, where do “stricter” reformers draw the line? Violating Shabbat in public is just as bad as idol worship.

    When you so called rabbi or rebbetzin picks up a microphone on yom kippur to read from the Torah, they transgress sins that once warranted the death penalty, as did murder, incest and bestiality.

  • Ezra G

    hey i know im late in posting here but i wanted o add my 2 cents.

    i recently learned that back when the zohar was written and kabalah was just discovered that the decree of the age was that no one under 4 could learn it. the logic was that by the age of 40 ppl had learned the rest of the good stuff and their lives and spiritual connection would be enhanced by the zohar. as of late rabbis have said that ppl could learn the zohar when they want because they would not get the full jist of what is being offered and would still have the increased spirituality.

    today i feel the prayer services are the same. music was done away with when we lost the temples because of exile we had to ‘hide’ our practices. but now we should be able to have the music. some ppl will argue thats what the cantor is for. but why not have instruments. i may feel uncomfortable sitting in a circle holding hands and having a kumzits as opposed to my ‘traditional’ service but that’s how i grew up and how i connect to God.

    if i may be so bold as to speak for him for a sec. i feel that God doesn’t want all the arguing and bickering that comes from closed minded ppl, but that everyone should accept other for what they are worth and even if one does not experience their way at least don’t hold it against them. its how they get close to God.

    and lakewood machmir, you are an ass hole, the only thing you may have “shtuped” is yourself, if you are not too dumb to figure it out.

  • Fresh

    Wow, I can’t believe how many of these frummies are clueless towards reform/conservative philosophy.

  • Fresh

    Oh yeah… VIVA LA REFORM/CONSERVATIVE!

  • Mark

    Phil – There is no such thing as a reformed shul or minyan. They are temples, and davening there is assur even if you have a minyan of frum people (happened to me, we davened outside).

    Where exactly do you draw the line of when it is assur and when it is not? I noticed that you didn’t include Conservative here – why exactly?

    Joy – if a conservative or a reform person wrote a sefer torah you are allowed to burn it.

    This is very interesting. I am assuming that you are required to burn it because it wasn’t written by a adequately holy (God fearing) person (which is one of the main requirements for a sofer).

    Now I would like to discuss a real-life scenario (without names or names of places). A sofer in a very frum neighborhood has been writing sifrei Torah for all his life, for many decades, and he appears outwardly to be a very frum, very God fearing person. Much later, it comes to light that, in private, he hasn’t lived his life in a holy manner (and, in fact, has transgressed many of the most major commandments, behavior as bad or worse than any Reform sofer). Must we find all those sifrei Torah and burn them? Why or why not?

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Fresh,

    I’m fully aware of the hypocritical nature of the movement. Here are 2 quotes from the URJ website, both are on the same page within a couple lines of each other:

    1) Reform Jews accept the Torah as the foundation of Jewish life containing God’s ongoing revelation to our people and the record of our people’s ongoing relationship with God. We see the Torah as God-inspired, a living document that enables us to confront the timeless and timely challenges of our everyday lives.

    2) Reform Jews are committed to the principle of inclusion, not exclusion. Since 1978, the Reform Movement has reached out to Jews-by-choice and interfaith families, encouraging them to embrace Judaism. Reform Jews consider children to be Jewish if they are the child of a Jewish father or mother, as long as the child is raised as a Jew.

    So basically paragraph #2 which completely denies what pargraph #1 seems to say, isw now used to fool innocent Jews into believing they are no contradiction to each other.

    I can see how one that is totally ignorant may fall for this crap, it’s almost as silly as the penis enlargement pills the spammers market.

  • Fresh

    Phil,

    I see no other option at this point. I challenge you to gong sau.

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Mark,

    I wasn’t the one that brought up burning the Torah, I don’t think that’s allowed even if a non Jew wrote one. Yes it is passul, might need to be buried like any other shaimos.

    “Conservative” is a very broadly defined term. My accountant is a member of one of the only conservative synagouges in Montreal, turns out they don’t allow goyim to marry or perticipate in the service. Women are allowed to read from the Torah, and the use of the egalitarian siddur is optional.

    By contrast, my in laws attended a conservative synagogue in Houston, where the bar mitzvah boy had a non Jewish mother. The grandmother were called up to the Torah wearing a crucifx necklace. Anything seem wrong with that picture?

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    I should reiterate that I was at a retreat center and there was a reform cong visiting and I sat in on their prayer service, this was done in the room used as a shul, when Manis Freedman visited and when Adin Steinsaltz visits next week – they will use the same room.

    To the person who said take frum out of my name, read the byline. Second off, I probably enjoyed it so much because these were hippie intellectual types rather than old school droning folks.

    But I hope to hit up some more of these type of things so I can make fun of the non-observant crowd some more.

    I would like to know how so many out of town frum Rabbis justify going to the conservative or reform rabbis sons bar mitzvahs and all that jazz.

    By the way, lubavitch girls are way hotter than reform!

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Fresh,

    You’ve been watching to many Bruce Lee flicks, time to attend a shiur, I suggest Shulchan Aruch.

  • cwilliam

    Hesh all this means is that when you come over i now have to serve mevushal wine.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    My dear Phil,

    It is called Reform, not Reformed. That may be a small detail in your eyes but it is significant because it highlights your ignorance of the facts. And though you dislike them, they are important.

    Fact is that anyone going to a reformed temple is supporting the organized destruction of the Jewish religion.

    It is always smart to try and compare your brethren to nazis. In fact I find that using genocide is an excellent tool for convincing people that I am right.


    I know of many cases that have personally touched our family where we now have cousins that think they are Jews when they actually aren’t.

    And I know of more than one Frum male who thinks that he is a mensch but isn’t. What a coincidence. This is fun, let’s continue with the nonsense. Tell me, how long ago did you stop beating your wife and did she like it.

    C’mon Phil, you can do better than this clap trap. Or maybe not. Let’s see what else you have.


    I even know of non Jews that think they are Cohanim! All thanks to the reformed / conservative charlatan’s that took a few bucks to tell them they were Jewish even though they can’t read aleph beis and know absolutely nothing about halacha.

    Oh, so if you can’t read Hebrew you aren’t Jewish. If you know nothing about Halacha, you can’t be Jewish. Something tells me you were the Gadol on your debate team.


    You want to ignore Torah, that’s bad enough. You want to have your friends transgress, that’s worse. But to try to justify you non observance of halacha into your own version of the religion is an open insult to the Torah and our religion, and an invitaion for other deviants such as yourself to join your sick cause.

    Philly, you’re losing it. Facts my friend, how about some facts. I know I haven’t given too many. I am too busy trying to type while my friend Stacey sits on my lap feeding me treif donuts.


    Sorry I’m not politically correct enough for your liberated ideas, but Judaism is in peril. Your people contribute to Judaism’s death by assimilation that has spiritually destroyed as many, maybe even more Jews than the holocaust.

    Dude, I think that you just scored enough points to be entered into the NK Hall of Fame. If nothing else, Shmueli the Satmar king wants to drink some Slipovitz with you.

    As for justifying that only “some” refomers accepts interfaith marriage, where do “stricter” reformers draw the line? Violating Shabbat in public is just as bad as idol worship.

    I didn’t try to justify anything, I don’t need to. I pointed out that you have a flawed argument and that blanket statements are a weak way of debating. Or would you like to say that every Jew is just another Bernie Madoff.

    When you so called rabbi or rebbetzin picks up a microphone on yom kippur to read from the Torah, they transgress sins that once warranted the death penalty, as did murder, incest and bestiality.

    Doesn’t happen in my shul, but that is not the point either. You don’t know what happens because you have never been.

    All you have is the ability to regurgitate what you have heard or been told. That makes you no better than a sheep and as bright as a lemming.

    I told you, you don’t define us. You can call us sick and perverted. I hear the same thing from people about Haredim and the Orthodox in general.

    I don’t tolerate it from them either. You want to be a fool. You want to pretend that you’re something special, go ahead.

    Just remember that if G-d forbid we should find ourselves standing next to each other in a pogrom, I’ll help you because you are a Jew and some am I.

    Sad thing is that I am not sure if you do the same. Take you spear Pinchas, poke us. You’ll feel better.

    Woohoo, now wasn’t that fun.

  • Fresh

    It gets to me when Conservative Jews are labeled “non-observant” as a whole. Sure, there are many non-observant(or less observant) Conservatives out there. But, I’ve also encountered many “Conservadox” that are indistinguishable from the frum crowd.

    And Phil… will do.

  • Mark

    Phil, you didn’t answer the question “Where do you draw the line?” Judaism has strictures, so which specific actions cause Conservative or Reform folks to disqualify themselves in the manner you mentioned above? Is it giving a non-Jew an aliyah? Is it serving shrimps for kiddush? Is it the general hashkafa of patrilineal descent?

    Are all the sifrei Torah written by the sofer I mentioned passul?

  • SF2K1

    Frum Satire,

    Just take it from kids who grow up going to reform places: Reform Services are typically just like protestant churches. The Rabbi reads something, people sing and read responsively, you’re really bored, you’re glad when it’s over and you’re especially glad that your parents won’t make you go back for at least a week.

    Then when you grow up, most of them, while having literally no other connection, will defend it to death as if it was the greatest thing, trashing other forms of Judaism they have never seen, even though they never go to their own reform place.

    The hippie style meet up you went to is usually the exception (a NFTY shabbat type) than the rule.

    So next time you go remember, most of these kids are as willfully ignorant and spiteful of other movements as most frum people I know. Their religion just doesn’t involve as many requirements and they don’t have any legal reasons to avoid them, just ideological determents.

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Jack,

    You were the one that first compared us to Nazis, before I even commented on this post. Now you accuse me of being a wife beater too.

    OK, when you decide to grow up and stop acting like 6 year old girl, you can take your head out of your ass and try to come up with some decent arguments.

    I’m sure you won’t, as nothing about destroying the religion as we’ve known it since Moshe misinai will fly with anyone that calls themselves frum.

    Maybe some acid tripping / smoking hippies or urine drinking buddists might have something more in common with your “liberal” ideas, which can be summed up incouple words, “must be good if it feels good”.

    Wasn’t it you that got pissed last time I mentioned something about a yeshiva hiring a transvestite?

  • Chatzkaleh

    Geez, I can’t belief the storm this great post has generated! Hesh is free to go where he wants and experience whatever he wants. This world is a free world and not a lockeed-up shtetl.
    Hesh is an adult and apparently more open-minded than any of the bigots out here. Go for it, Hesh!

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Mark,

    Where I draw the line is not the issue, it’s where the halachic line is drawn.

    Anyone that violates the major laws such as shabbat or kosher in public in an open manner is automatically disqualified from serving in certain functions. How can one that serves shrimp for kiddush and drives to shul serve as a rabbi?

    As for your sofer, better check with a rav as to the velidity of anything he wrote. Again, I don’t think you are allowed to burn a passul Torah, maybe burial or geniza.

    As for other functions such as a shochet, no one would even consider eating an animal slaughtered by one who trangresses major sins in private, all the more so if they did in public.

  • http://offthed.blogspot.com offthederech

    Phil: I don’t even know where to start (although Jack did a decent job).

    “Only their so called rabbis should be held responsable…The heads of these temples are no better than jews for jesus or other cults that prey on unsuspecting or unlearned mainstream Jews. They cater to the feeling of singing in Hebrew, using Jewish icons such as magen david, kiddush, shabbat candles, yet they preach ideas completely contrary to the Torah. These are all missionary tactics used to draw people in, get them to drop their guard, then sell them a fraudulaent idea.”

    Give or take a few words, and those same words could be used to describe kiruv rabbis, who arguably exaggerate and market Orthodox Judaism to make it appealing to the masses.

    The sad part of a frum person debating religion with almost anyone else is they’re not allowed to question the basic precepts of their faith. It makes it really, really difficult for anyone else to have a discussion with someone who expects, nay DEMANDS that we question and closely scrutinize every belief and thought we hold dear or believe in, while expecting us to allow every one of their beliefs to be completely off-limits. It’s just not cool.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    Phil,

    I typed my last comment slowly so that you would be able to follow.

    This time I am sending an interpreter over. He signs, speaks seven languages and has a tremendous singing voice, even better than Mordecai Ben-David.

    Your arguments border on unintelligible, which leads me to a question a for you. If a plane crashes on the border of Canada and the US where do you bury the survivors.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

    You were the one that first compared us to Nazis, before I even commented on this post.

    Philly, RIF, reading is fun. Read carefully and think about our history. Who burned Torahs. Take your head out of the Gemara and think for yourself.

    The Romans, the Nazis and others have burned Torahs and other Jewish books. When it was suggested that this be done I pointed out the similarity. Do you get it now.

    Maybe some acid tripping / smoking hippies or urine drinking buddists might have something more in common with your “liberal” ideas, which can be summed up incouple words, “must be good if it feels good”.

    That is straight out of the “How to Argue With non-Frummies” for Dummies book. Chapter seven, what to do when you haven’t any facts to support your position.

    Poor Phil. It must be hard to try and out Shammai, Shammai.
    Now you accuse me of being a wife beater too.

    No, she told me you were and she hates that you insist on wearing socks that have holes in them and that awful tie from your Bar Mitzvah.

    OK, when you decide to grow up and stop acting like 6 year old girl

    You ought to be embarassed that a six year old girl pointed out that you are acting like a moronic buffoon.

    I readily admit to having resorted to silly banter and child like behavior. It is kind of fun, especially since you refuse to use facts.

    You haven’t refuted any of my points. You haven’t been to a Reform or Conservative shul. You don’t know what happens in them, just what you have been told.

  • Homey

    Phil,

    While a passul Torah must indeed be buried, a Torah written by a heretic must be burned.

    Jack, you poor soul,

    “You didn’t prove anything other than you want to be part of a Jewish Taliban. Dude, that doesn’t bother me. You’re a minority within a minority.”

    If logic offends you so much, and the truth of the Torah makes all those who adhere to it “Taliban”, then pass me the towel.

    “When the antisemites go looking for Jews to burn they take you, they take me, they take all of us.”

    Umm…Anti-Semites don’t dictate who’s a Jew and who’s not, only G-d does. So just because Hitler would have had many reformed Jews killed who are not legally Jewish (only in their minds because of this new notion they made up called “Patrilineal Descent”), doesn’t mean they’re Jews in the eyes of the Torah.

    “The real truth is that you haven’t a leg to stand on here because if you did you would have provided more than that.”

    The reason why I haven’t provided more than that is because 1) people like you are a waste of time to argue with (why am I doing it now is a good question) 2) it’s such a simple point that it’s a major wonder how large groups (albeit dwindling in numbers) can miss it. And the reason they miss it is because they want this warm fuzzy feeling that Heshy got, that you can be “spiritual” without any effort or sacrifice on your part.

    “You want to deal with history, let’s deal with history. Want to live like an Essene, so be it. At least have the integrity to say that is what you are doing.”

    My history goes back over 5,000 years. Yours goes back around 250. I have the integrity of an unadulterated G-d given Torah on my side, unlike you who alter it to your whims. True, not all those who profess to follow it do, but at least they’re honest enough to admit while they don’t follow the rules, they don’t change them either.

    “Can you provide a logical explanation for why you are Jewish other than you happened to be born a Jew.”

    What do you expect to prove with such a non-nonsensical question that a Reform or Conservative Jew can definitely not answer??? How can they be considered “Jewish” if they change the laws to their liking?

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    Jack,

    You haven’t brought out one valid argument, simply added more childish insults.

    If it makes you happy, go reschedule yom kippur for a Sunday when it’s more convenient, fast until noon and break your fast on takeout fro Burger King, wash it down with some good old yayin Nesech. When you’re done, take the rabbi (male, female or shemale) to your backseat for a quikie before neilah.

    I’m done corresponding with your idiotic, liberal fag mentality.

    OTD,

    Kiruv Rabbis also play on the same factors, only difference is that they are selling Judaism, not some concoted hodge podge put together by a bunch of OTD’s that felt guilty about eating pork and decided to start their own version of the religion so they can pat themselves on the back to feel better about it.

  • http://offthed.blogspot.com offthederech

    >I have the integrity of an unadulterated G-d given Torah on my side

    Homey: I think the basic difference between Orthodox and the rest of it is that Orthodox claim to have received Torah Misinai, while some of the other groups don’t believe that happened. If you’re willing to approach that subject in a calm, rational manner, let me know.

  • http://offthed.blogspot.com offthederech

    >only difference is that they are selling Judaism

    Not true.
    They’re selling truth, happiness, and neverending bliss. Just ask them.

  • Mark

    Phil – Anyone that violates the major laws such as shabbat or kosher in public in an open manner is automatically disqualified from serving in certain functions. How can one that serves shrimp for kiddush and drives to shul serve as a rabbi?

    Right, and I agree. But what percentage of the people in the building have to be disqualified before 10 frum men are not permitted to daven in that building?

  • Homey

    OTD,

    Yes, I claim the Jewish nation received the Torah on Sinai. From what I’ve read, the Reform believe it was “inspired” at Sinai, or something like that. So yes, I readily admit that is a core difference between us.

    Jeez, I used to come here for entertainment, and now I find myself debating.

  • Chatzkaleh

    You claim or you believe? Truth is: we don’t know for sure where har sinai is or where mra”h died. we don’t have the luchos. no eveidence, shvache claim.

  • Mark

    we don’t have the luchos

    Aren’t they in the sub-basement of the Vatican?

    :-)

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    “Can you provide a logical explanation for why you are Jewish other than you happened to be born a Jew.”

    What do you expect to prove with such a non-nonsensical question that a Reform or Conservative Jew can definitely not answer??? How can they be considered “Jewish” if they change the laws to their liking?

    Homey,

    You didn’t answer the question. I suspect that you called it nonsensical because you didn’t understand it or haven’t got an answer that makes sense to you.

    Why are you Jewish? Is it just because you were born a Jew. Is it because you think that it is better than being Buddhist.

    Why?

    It is a legitimate question and if you can’t answer it than you have some soul searching to do.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    I’m done corresponding with your idiotic, liberal fag mentality.

    Thank you Phil for proving my point. You are a true scholar and a mensch. It must be hard to be so angry all the time, let alone frustrating not to be able to answer such simple questions.

    Anyway, since you are not going to communicate with me I suppose that I can declare victory.

    Now on to your alter ego Homey.

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    OTD,

    You are on the right track. There is a significant distinction between believing that Torah came min hashamayim and having been divinely inspired.

  • Yochanan

    Heshy,

    You do realize that the Reform movement is OK with intermarriage and their “temples” are filled with gentiles with names like Kohen and Goldberg.

  • http://offthed.blogspot.com offthederech

    Yochanan,

    You do realize that the frum world is okay with child molestation. And lying to people. And hypocrisy.

  • Fresh

    Yochanan,

    I know they’re okay with intermarriage but could you elaborate on your second comment?

  • anon

    Yochanan means their fathers are Jewish but their mothers aren’t, yet they still have the nerve to go to synagogue.

    Most Reform rabbis will not perform an intermarriage. Some will, but most won’t. But they won’t kick you out for it, and if you raise your children Jewish, they accept them as Jewish. But the child of a Jewish mother who is actually raised Christian would not be Jewish by Reform standards. So it depends on what you mean by “okay with.”

  • Mark

    Most Reform rabbis will not perform an intermarriage.

    But most will “convert” you if you want to marry a Jew. The problem is that “wanting to marry a Jew” isn’t good enough for a valid conversion. A valid conversion requires “wanting to be a Jew” (in addition to a few other requirements).

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    OTD,

    Difference is that frumies aren’t proud of the molesters and liars, nor are they part of their official policies.

    Reform on the other hand, explicitly states their tolerance of interfaith marriages and non Jews being considered Jews if they feel Jewish.

    Just because you have a bad experience with frummies, that doesn’t make all frummies evil.

    However, when a movement as a whole endorses open violations of Judaism and calls itself Judaism, there is something fundamentally wrong with the movement.

  • Homey

    Lol Jack, you didn’t and couldn’t prove a damn thing! Phil stopped with you for precisely that reason. It’s just an endless string of nonsense from you.

    A gentile can act as Jewish as he wants, even adhere to the tenents of Judaism more than many frum people. But if they’re not a legal member of the club, they’re just not Jewish, very simple. Some people are born Jewish and don’t act it, and some people act it (or think they do like Deformed and Conservative in their warped views) and are not Jews at all. Just because they decided to have a vote and change laws given by God to suit their needs and allow Patrilinial Descent, doesn’t make it so in the eyes of God and the Torah. So they can act as Jewish as they please, but it’s just not so. Sorry.

  • http://offthed.blogspot.com offthederech

    >frumies aren’t proud of the molesters and liars

    Can you prove that?

    >Just because you have a bad experience with frummies, that doesn’t make all frummies evil.

    Just because you have a good experience with frummies, that doesn’t make all frummies good.

    FTFY. (fixed that for you)

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    However, when a movement as a whole endorses open violations of Judaism and calls itself Judaism, there is something fundamentally wrong with the movement.

    That only works if it is accurate. Since you have yet to provide any facts we have to assume that it is wrong.

  • Homey

    Jack,

    Lol the reason Phil stopped pandering to your drivel is because he feels you’re a waste of time, NOT because you’re the Master deBater. You haven’t made a single valid point in defense of the Deform movement yet, sorry to break it to you.

    In regards to your other nonsense, being a Jew is more than just “feeling spiritual”. Yes, I was born a Jew (father and of course, mother) and in addition to being one by birth, one must also act the way the Torah demands. Granted there are many frum people who don’t, but at least they don’t try to change the rules to fit their needs. However, if a gentile or a member of the Deformed movement born from a non-Jewish mother (essentially the same thing) suddenly gets up and is as religious as Moses, it won’t mean a blessed thing, because he is missing one simple requirement: becoming a member of the Jewish nation via accepting the Torah and converting according to Halacha. Without a proper conversion, he missed the boat. So while you and Heshy may feel so spiritual during this ceremony, in the eyes of Hashem, it wasn’t a minyan, sorry to break it to you.

    I’ll break it down for you plain and simple:

    1) Jew born LEGALLY Jewish according to Halacha and ACTS as the Torah wants is the True Jew.
    2) Jew born Jewish according to Halacha but doesn’t act like one, is nevertheless a Jew, albeit a sinning one. And his status will change somewhat according to the severity of his sins.
    3) A non Jew according to Halacha that acts extremely Jewish, above and beyond what pious Jews do, is still not a Jew since they lack that fundamental ingredient: Being a Jew halachically.

    And OTD wasn’t the one who mentioned the Torah was “divinely inspired” according to the Deformed movement, it was me. Learn how to read.

    And I’m shocked Heshy would daven with such a minyan. You don’t have to be the biggest lamdan to know it’s totally forbidden, and the fact that you liked it blows my mind. I didn’t realize how far gone you are. But hey, to each his own.

  • Evolution

    I think Orthodox Jews are more likely to have Jewish grandchildren than Reform Jews.

    That is all.

  • Telzer

    Nice.

    Hesh, 90 screeds later, one can readily see why O’s are dour and C/R’s are not: O’s are too busy looking at the liberals and critiquing. The liberals look inward with self-confidence. O’s can learn something here, no?

    BTW, Chasidim that I know are a pretty happy bunch, too. Them that are don’t reis criyah over their co-religionists as witnessed above.

  • Telzer

    …oh, enjoyable post. Thanks.

  • http://imabima.blogspot.com phyllis

    I can’ t believe I’m getting involved in this, I should leave all the peacocking to the boys, I know. But I have to point out…

    Homey said:
    (only in their minds because of this new notion they made up called “Patrilineal Descent”)

    ahem, this is not a new notion. have you read the Torah? Rachel brought along her idols and all that…the lines definitely descended through the abbas….Oh, right, Joseph and Moses married some nice Gentile girls and ended up with patrilineally-descended Jewish children. Ephraim and Menashe, anyone?

    Patrilineality isn’t something new, it’s just something old brought back to light.

  • Anonymous

    Hesh I’m very disaponted that u said there is no single way to follow judisum
    there is a mishna brera and that is the way to live

  • Mark

    Evolution – I think Orthodox Jews are more likely to have Jewish grandchildren than Reform Jews.

    My father worked with many Reform and Secular Jews. They would often say “My grandfather was a Rabbi”, and my father would reply “My grandson will be a Rabbi”.

    phyllis – Patrilineality isn’t something new, it’s just something old brought back to light.

    Ideally all Jews could get together and declare that patrilineal and/or matrilineal descent is sufficient to be a Jew. But it’s not going to happen one way or another until Mashiach comes.

    B’mherah B’yamenu.

  • upset

    There really are no facts when it comes to how to practice Judaism, halachically or not. Jewish practice is all one big gray area, Joy you actually sound evil.

    hesh im very disappointed in u for saying that its a very ignorant thing to say and goes against all ur beliefs and Joy is just stating the facts

  • http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/ Jack

    Lol the reason Phil stopped pandering to your drivel is because he feels you’re a waste of time, NOT because you’re the Master deBater. You haven’t made a single valid point in defense of the Deform movement yet, sorry to break it to you.

    Homey,

    Your incessant need to use pejorative and derogatory terms is all the proof anyone needs that you haven’t a leg to stand on here. Don’t care whether Freshwater Phil replies or not. Not here to convince you or him.

    In regards to your other nonsense,
    Sure, ask you to think and it is considered nonsense. Better to be a sheep and a lemming and blindly accept what is spoonfed.


    being a Jew is more than just “feeling spiritual”. Yes, I was born a Jew (father and of course, mother) and in addition to being one by birth, one must also act the way the Torah demands. Granted there are many frum people who don’t, but at least they don’t try to change the rules to fit their needs. However, if a gentile or a member of the Deformed movement born from a non-Jewish mother (essentially the same thing) suddenly gets up and is as religious as Moses, it won’t mean a blessed thing, because he is missing one simple requirement: becoming a member of the Jewish nation via accepting the Torah and converting according to Halacha. Without a proper conversion, he missed the boat. So while you and Heshy may feel so spiritual during this ceremony, in the eyes of Hashem, it wasn’t a minyan, sorry to break it to you.

    Homey,

    Didn’t ask you to explain what it takes to be Jewish. I asked you if you could tell me why you are Jewish. It is a harder question than just regurgitating lessons you have been taught.

    And OTD wasn’t the one who mentioned the Torah was “divinely inspired” according to the Deformed movement, it was me. Learn how to read.

    Ok, Homey. You really got me with that one. Where do you want me to mail your certificate.

    You’re no different than Pat Robertson or anyone else who claims to have had some sort of private conversation with Hashem. Just another nutjob who is terrified of being exposed.

    Like I said, I don’t lose any sleep over whether you think I am Jewish or not.

    All I know is that you are a minority within a minority. Without the rest of us you are doomed. Your birthrate isn’t going to support us all in the long run. So like it or not you’ll be forced to accept us.

    In the meantime I have to respond to the emails I got from some of the lurkers here who want to know if this is a real discussion. More than one said that if the people here are representative of Orthodox Judaism they want nothing to do with it.

    Good Job, homey. Give me your address and I’ll send you a Dale Carnegie book called How to Win Friends and Influence People.

  • chosid

    Phil,

    No Jew today, regardless of observance or affiliation, could possibly qualify to be an apikoris. This is the position of the Rebbe if I’m not mistaken. I’m sure you know what level your learning has to be on to even qualify as a true apikoris. Their beliefs are undoubtedly kefira however and you’re basically right it’s better to daven in a mosque than in their buildings. None of the Rambam’s horaos would apply to modern day freiacks however. If you hadn’t already figured it out, none of them know that what they’re practicing is complete shtus and narishkeit.