I don’t actually know what is causing the shidduch crisis, but it definitely isn’t the separation of the sexes. I am constantly hearing from older folks with kids who are in the parsha complaining about the fact that all the separation nowadays is preventing people from meeting each other.
The argument is usually centered around older folks memories of socials and mixers and tons of opportunities to meet members of the opposite sex. I am all for this stuff as well and I also don’t think they should just be billed as singles events – singles events strike me as too serious – but still these people blame separation of the sexes for all the singles.
If this were so, one would think that the frummies would be having a way harder time finding mates than their modern orthodox cohorts, but its not the case. Take a look around the upper west side, Washington Heights or any other singles community which are usually made up of people who grew up in coed environments and its not any better than of those who grew up separate.
I have a twin post of this coming up that is a little funnier – I just had to vent.
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I’m with you.
You really think that when 100 singles are at a wedding, and don’t even sit next to each other, that its not helping the shidduch crisis?? Are you serious?
It’s pretty pathetic that probably the best singles mixer possible is always separate seating.
Hashy, I think you are confused. Among MO co-ed circles, it is perfectly acceptable (and even preferable in many cases) to get married in mid to late 20’s. Just because MO co-ed folks don’t get married in huge numbers before that doesn’t make it a “shidduch crisis” on par with the Charedi shidduch crisis (that anyone, especially girls, that aren’t married by 22-24 are “washed up” marriage-wise).
nope don’t agree on this one. healthy coed interaction is important for creating marriages and for general societal harmony. singles “events” are a start, but ultimately it’s creating a society which is comfortable with itself.
the issues in the UWS are a result of poor cross-gender interactions for younger folk
Z I agree with you 100% and have written and talked about it many times – I think its insane that weddings are separate (but frummies do not feel comfortable sitting together I have heard) I am talking about in general – in the communities that genders do not hang out with one another and so on.
Mark – the shidduch crisis is not about people in the lower 20s – I am talking about the singles in their upper 20s and 30s
Extreme separation of the sexes is definitely a huge issue in the frummie community, and while I wouldn’t heap all of the blame on one issue, I think that it definitely contributes to the problem. What do you say on a date when you’ve grown up without looking at, much less speaking to, the opposite sex at all?
Regarding Modern Orthodox singles, they do mingle far more, but I think the issue there is that much of the Upper West Side crowd just isn’t interested in getting married. They’re content to date and have fun and aren’t necessarily looking for anything serious (or not yet, anyway.) This isn’t everyone, of course; I know some singles on the Upper West Side who definitely do want to get married, but from what I’ve heard, a lot of them don’t.
here you go again talking about znus.whats your full name and your mothers name I want to make a mishibarach for you cause your sick in the head.why don’t you suggest having a singles orgy , nu why not ,if your going against mesoyrah you minus well go all the way.
The running joke I’ve heard about UWS is that over there, Seinfeld is not just a TV show, it’s a pastiche of the UWS singles scene. Just listening to them discuss the people they’ve dated in the last year, I feel like I’m listening to:
“she eats her peas with a fork one at a time”
“she’s got man hands”
“he’s a close talker”
“he’s a body painter”
“she’s a low talker”
“she’s too much like me”
“nah, it just didn’t work”
and all the other Seinfeld-worthy excuses.
I’ve been asked more than once how I ever expect to get a shidduch. I just shrug and go “anyone who has the word shidduch in their vocabulary probably would not be interested in me anyway”.
lakewood machmir
uh excuse me!Some of us ladies would like to marry a guy that could support a family not just (supposedly)learn in kollel the whole day.See thats my big problem with people like you!There is no problem with a singles social and if your too lakewoody for that you probly don’t know how to make money anyway.
Avigail
see the shulchan aruch wich says that in the times of the bais hamikdash they used to have shomrim in yershulayim during yum tiv when jews were oileh regel, to stop both married and unmarried women and men from socializing.Now if they had you hire shomerim to patrol the streets because maybe men and women would socialize.Al achas kakama vkamah kal vchomer ben bino shel kal vchomer are social events assur where men and women a muchan umizuman for go after thier hearts.
FS – the shidduch crisis is not about people in the lower 20s – I am talking about the singles in their upper 20s and 30s
Right. That’s my point! In the MO circles, it is entirely acceptable to marry in late 20’s or even 30’s. Heck, I married in my early 30’s and my wife married in her late 20’s!!! There’s nothing wrong with marrying after one has a profession and a decent job for a while.
Could have fooled me. In MO circles, I got several hints that I might be “too old” at 25. And my friends who were just a bit younger were quite terrified about their prospects. Definitely, I think it’s a more intense beast in the ultra-Orthodox world.
Writing my “Shidduch Resume” and I ran across this post.
Now I know your arment:”singles sociales are tachlis”.Babamayses!!!unless your parents know your going and have checked out every single guy there to make sure he is frum and they know what time your coming back etc…Any fair minded person knows deep down that singles event (as my rebbe puts it)”shemkt fun znus”=”smells from lust”
Moray V’raboysay!!!!Wake up.Every bar daas knows exactly what machovos goes through a mans head when he even sees the word “singles event” .Ladies- those men are out for your bodies.Men- stop being over”lo sasuru acharei levavchem vacharei einaychim”!!!!!!!!!!!
I used to work with goyim who went to singles events.This guy comes into the office and his friend jokingly says”so Todd did you get lucky last night”.Humm, why didn’t his friend say”so Todd did you find a nice lady you could marry last night”.To be fair these were goyim, but I’m sure a similar remark would be made amoungst yiddin as well.Moray v’raboysay you can’t argue on human nature
I used to think the shidduch crisis represented a prime opportunity for me to meet people. After all, a surplus of 20-something women sounds good to a 20-something man. However, I just can’t make myself toe the line, and women who find themselves “trapped in the shidduch crisis” would be entirely uninterested in someone who takes Nietzsche’s questions seriously, who alternates between full acceptance of the Brisker methodology and complete skepticism, who is uncertain about rabbinic authority, and who favors a naturalized approach to ethics. Those are the biggies – next to them my libertarian politics practically blend in. I wish I could live as a frum Jew without questions, but I can’t. I keep a kosher home, I keep shabbat, I learn, I daven – but I’m more conservative in philosophy than orthodox, and that’s when I’m not just going through the motions. The so-called shidduch crisis means nothing to me, therefore.
Shtate in the tochacha in this weeks parsha (Bechukosai26:27-29)”If dispite this you don’t listen to me and behave toward me with casualness,i will behave toward you in casualness 7 times greater than your sins.YOU WILL EAT THE FLESH OF YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS!!!!”(not very gishmack).watch out g-d doesn’t play games
Regarding the Upper West Side, it is simply a dysfunctional community. Even the young married folks that live there contribute somewhat to the dysfunctionality. And it isn’t a new thing, it was dysfunctional back in the 80’s when I was single and dating in NYC. At this point, any reasonably informed single should already know not to move to the UWS if they are serious about getting married. Heck, by 1988/9, I had already reached the point that I would rarely accept a date with someone that had lived on the UWS for more than a few months. What was the point? I was looking to get married, not just to date, hang out, become part of the chevra, etc for a few years.
Some have accused the Katamon single community of being similar to the UWS, and it is to some extent, but many more singles from the Katamon community end up getting married, and the older ones tend to move elsewhere unlike the UWS.
Oh my god, does anyone know if it really says that in the bible?!
lakewood, you’re a nut and you’re extremely chutzpadick to your grandparents and great-grandparents, etc. In their villages and cities in Europe, they allowed the boys and girls to socialize when appropriate. Only the very wealthy would use shadchanim as such.
I love this guy who is he?
hesh- I think we need a new category…
Shocked-no worse than jonathan swift’s “a modest proposal”.
“lakewood machmir // May 11, 2009 at 1:04 pm
here you go again talking about znus.whats your full name and your mothers name I want to make a mishibarach for you cause your sick in the head.why don’t you suggest having a singles orgy , nu why not ,if your going against mesoyrah you minus well go all the way.
”
Lakewwod Machmir: if I give you my name, can you daven for me to have an orgy too? Thank you in advance.
In exchange, I will daven that someday you learn proper grammar and educate yourself past the third grade level. Then you can stop embarrassing yourself.
Party Jew
Wake up!!Don’t you smell the smoke of Gehhenim burning from under you.Do teshuvah before it’s too late.Moray V’raboysay!!!!!!”shuyvivin El hashem elokaychem” you can do teshuva ad yom moysoy
@Shocked
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction: jealous and proud of it [cf. "the second commandment"]; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak [punishing generations for sins of grandparents? cf. commandments again]; a vindicitive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser [arguably kibbush ha'aretz]; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror.”
–Richard Dawkins, “The God Delusion “, p. 31
[square brackets my interjections]
Reading lakewood machmir’s posts, I have no choice but to glance at the Dawkins in my hands and go “amen”. Don’t take my word for it, don’t take lakewood’s words for it, don’t take anyone’s: open the book and see for yourself. “Hafach bei ve’Hafach bei dekulah bei”, chazal once said. It’s all in there. In the end, only YOU can decide for yourself if this is the lifestyle you want to lead for yourself.
Before anyone here starts threatening me with cherem (I’ve had my share), just know that I’m no ‘Frum Dawkinsite’. My biggest contention with him is that I admire a person who actually uses their faith for the possitive, to bring light in the world. I only contend with (a) those who are just going through the motions but don’t fully believe (me for many years), and (b) the so-called ‘wahabbis’ of any religion, be it Jewish, Christian, Moslem, or even atheism. I believe that there’s a place in gehenom for people who use their religion to bring others down, and I only hope that when I’m sent there I have a good view of them.
I end with one last quote from Chazal. “De’ishtamsesh be’taga chalaf”. Loosesly translated from aramaic, whoever uses the torah for personal gain will only lose. Ha’mayvin Yavin.
I’ve been to mixed family events (weddings and such) and I’m surprised that there’s a shidduch crisis. There are so many good hearted, hard working young people out there!
Maybe as human beings, we are just looking for perfection and as human beings no one is perfect. However, I do not feel that keeping young people separated is going to be of any help. They are always going to compare a potential match to the idealised version in their minds rather than to real human beings.
Ghottistyx
Apekores!!!!!!!!!Achutzpah,You think just because you know some Mishnayos Avos your an educated intellectual.Guess what buddy your a min(heretic) and it’s mutar to say loshan horah about you because your not in the category of “Amechah”
I pray for you 3 times a day in V’lamalshinim
“Lakewood Machmir // May 11, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Party Jew
Wake up!!Don’t you smell the smoke of Gehhenim burning from under you.Do teshuvah before it’s too late.Moray V’raboysay!!!!!!”shuyvivin El hashem elokaychem” you can do teshuva ad yom moysoy
”
Machmir: I will gladly join you there, and watch you burn in the center of it all for committing the greatest sin imaginable – Using the Internet.
Party Jew
I have a heter to use the internet, it’s called kiruv.However most people use the internet to be moytzi zerah lavatalah while looking at ervah.
I have a heter to use the internet, it’s called kiruv.
Ummm, I hate to break it to you, but your kiruv technique isn’t quite working. Unless you are trying to be a fire-and-brimstone Baptist and being mekarev to their religion.
However most people use the internet to be moytzi zerah lavatalah while looking at ervah.
Ahhh, so now we know what you do in your spare time!
Thank you lakewood machmir, I needed that laugh. Is that really the best you can do?
Here’s one more for you. “Lo Tisnah et Achicha Bi’lvovecha”. I’m sensing plenty of sin’ah in your posts. Until you learn to be more accepting of those who have a different weltanschaung as yourself, don’t wonder too much why moshiach hasn’t come yet. One hint: anything I’m guilty of at the worst meritted 70 years of galus, but sin’as chinam meritted 2,000 years and counting.
Don’t think I hate your ilk. If ever you came to my house for shabbos, I’d invite you in, but I’d still make sure you get the cold cholent.
kiruv…. . You couldn’t mekarayv a thirsty kindergartener to eat a popsicle on a 100 degree summer afternoon!
Lakewood Machmir
I respect your passion for jewdism.Your heart and soul are in the right place.One request Rabbi.Please translate the hebrew phraseology you use.Not all of us have a yeshiva background.Much respect.
Thank You
BT
Yasha Koyach(thank you).I will try to trasalate from now on.as the rosh yeshiva( head of yeshiva)zol zai gezunt shtark(may he be well)once said”is nit da kup tzu mach a mentch abur da heartz(its not the intellect that makes a man it’s the heart). .BT ,what words didn’t you understand?Have you ever been to lakewood for a shabbos?
what does-”moytzi zerah lavatalah while looking at ervah”.
“However most people use the internet to be moytzi zerah lavatalah while looking at ervah.”
Isnt that why God created the internet? Back in the good old days, we had to walk all the way to the corner store to buy the porn. Even though we did trade with our fellow Yeshivah students, and many of the fine Yeshivahs and Camps maintained an un-official library, there was still not the same variety that you can get nowadays on one of the countless wonderful sites that have been opened to serve us.
I imagine that God took pity on us, suffering in Golus, and declared “let them watch porn, and may it be in a variety which was unheard of since the beginning of time”.
I suspect that you may be one of those Jews who still believes that its better to deny the internet, deny porn, and just do like the more Orthodox Jews do, which is to use prostitutes for your outlet. I believe that God may have invented the internet to help people like you avoid STDs.
Lakewood machmir rocks – I myself believe in full blown coed everything – does anyone remember the coed naked shirts of the early 90s?
that means “masterbating while looking at porn”
ok so now your blocking me, whats the problem are my posts too contraversial
Let’s something straight guys I love all jews,but people who spew apikorsus are soynei yisroel
ghottistyx
I do apologize if I came off too shtark, but please,I beg you, do teshuvah, lemaan Hashem
Frum Satire( aka Heshy)
You’ll have plenty of time to do all these interesting things with your wife once you get married(afer she’s been to the mikvah,of course).But chas v’shalom even touch an unmarried woman, is an issur(im not saying d’oraysah,but an issur)
How does that follow? How does my willingness to openly question God, et al, make me ‘one who hates Jews’? (assuming we have the same definition of ’soynei yisroel’, I’m translating it literally). My problem is not with the people who practice, it’s with the practice itself. Remember, my attacks are not against you personally, but against your approach, however noble your hislahavus may be.
Yes, I remember those Coed Naked shirts, they were fun. I used to have “Coed Naked Firefighting: Find ‘em Hot, Leave ‘em Wet”.
and I apologize if I wrongly come across vitriolic. I find myself sounding like Acher, saying “the gates of teshuva are open to all except for ‘Acher’”. At the moment, I have chosen the lifestyle of the ‘Acher’. If the path shall open its way to me, I just may traipse down it.
Machmir: It sounds like you are just impersonating a frum Jew because what comes out of you is cornier than corny. Almost like amnon yitzchak’s “do you know how hot it is in hell?”.
In the case of you not impersonating: is this yourr (forgive the pun) crusade against those who do not wish to be shadchened at age 20?
Personally, I think guys have problems going out with a girl who is better educated and has a good job. Because we, yeshiva boys, were not really encouraged to have a proper education and job. Rabbonim should wake up and better think about what to answer after 120 years when they are asked: “what did you do for all these girls that wanted to marry non-kolelniks”?
that does remind me”al don es chvercha ad shatgiyah lekomh”who know’s where I’d be(or if I’d be) if I where in your shoes.Anyway I think I was yotzeh”hachach tochach es amisechah”now I better start worrying about “lo sisa alav chet”.BT if you want to experiance a shabbos like no other.Come to Lakewood. I sat in the Yashan 2 rows from the back on th left side. just ask for Yerchum.I don’t want to say my last name, people might make prank phone calls to my wife.
See you there
My bet: Frum Satire is Lakewood Machmir (wouldn’t be the first time someone pretended to argue with himself). Maybe this is part of his next post.
Yashan is Bais Medrash Gevohah’s main Bais Medrash on 7th St between Private way and Lawood Ave
It would be too much of a pain for me to comment on my own blog under other names – I would have to log out and log back in every time – I wouldn’t take the time.
SF2K1
I am not Notsofrum Satire.Whoops, did I say “Notsofrum Satire” I meant “Frum Satire”
Hi, I am from the Future.
the way to spot a fake post:”Lakewood Machir with STDs from a Prositute “My name is not “Lakewood Machir “it’s “Lakewood Machmir”
If you’re close when you should be far, you’ll be far when you should be close. There are countless perfectly happy “charedi” (whatever that means today) families where that couple were the first relationship of any kind between a man and woman.
Follow what it says in pirkei avos to not speak to opposite gender unless necessary and you’ll go far in this regard.
Here’s your answer: Adult Youth Group. Not adults dating kids, just instead of NSCY or USY, make it NCSA or USA. Take the money that organizations are spending on singles events and create fun community events for unmarried adults in whatever age groups they break them down into and take the pressure off. Is there a difference between unmarried and single? It doesn’t use the word single. I guess some could argue that this might lead to people in the middle of divorces attending, but it would also open the door to young widows and widowers (if they felt up to attending). I don’t know. The idea of going to a singles event is eh, but if it was a no-pressure adult version of social events designed for folks to make friends with other folks, I might be inclined to go. People aren’t unaware of being attracted to each other. This would just take the guesswork out of wondering if people are single. Just a thought …
chosid – There are countless perfectly happy “charedi” (whatever that means today) families where that couple were the first relationship of any kind between a man and woman.
Are you saying that Adam and Chava were Chassidim???
Taka its a davar poshut and anyone who is from the West Side knows that it is asur to date girls from there as they are not b’chezkas of besulos, v’hameivin yuvin. Tefillin dates were invented by there.
Lakewood guy is doiresh emes, but most are too shvach to hear it with the proper oznayim. BE MEKABEL THE EMES FROM WHEREVER YOU HEAR IT!!!!
UMAIN YEHAI SHMAI RABBA is the emes’dika pshat
“b’chezkas of besulos, v’hameivin yuvin.”
Does that basically mean their morals aren’t as upstanding as those of the women in black hat towns?
Why didn’t my comment post?
Is this the yeshiva world?
Screaming religious people sound the same, regardless of what they believe, whether it’s sangre de Christo or be mekabel the emes. The louder the volume, the less likely folks will be to listen. So much fun on the subway, I must admit. ((hellfire subway preachers))
no, wtf, it’s a computer glitch. that happens sometimes here. this is not ywn, nor is it vin.
I’m sorry for wasting your time. I just can’t come to terms with my horrible internet porn addiction, so I came here to fend off the guilt by yelling at other people about it. It’s gotten so bad that even midgets with whip cream is not enough to get me off anymore. I’m gonna go join an SA (sexaholics anonymous) group now. Thanks for your understanding!
True story:
I was set up with my husband on sawyouatsinai. I rejected his profile. Then I met him in person at a singles event. Now I’m happy with him.
ghottistyx
and in the frum world the mothers of the boys and girls make these excuses for them and they never meet.
The problem with shidduch crisis is that everyone is told to get married so much they don’t want to. My friends from HS, college and otherwise growing up are all married with kids. (thanks to facebook, I’ve found many of them).
The reason why they don’t get married on the UWS is because they having too good a time sleeping with each other and laying around in Central Park together on Shabbos and going clubbing together… who wants to add in responsibility to that? Why change diapers when you can party?
Lakewood:
What’s Amechah? and why can you say lashon hara then? You do realize you can repeat anything posted here anyway because it’s an internet site and if someone says something in a room of however many people or more, it’s fair game. Internet would qualify for that.
Surprise, surprise… I’m another person who belives in shomer negiah.
And Heshy, just so you know, because I know you think I became too religious,
1) I used to be fire and brimstone Baptist.
2) I was practically shomer negiah when I started my conversion. I used to do handshakes and high fives and stuff like that.
Michal, my boyfriend is Catholic, but he won’t convert. What can I say to him to get him to convert so that I can marry him?
No snip no sex
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SHIDDUCH CRISIS WHATSOEVER!!!!
Especially for those people who believe in a concept called “mazel”. You must do what you can and hashem will take it from there and carry out your pre-determined destiny. Additionally, you may be right that there are slight problems for those who are ugly, family issues, disabled e.t.c, but the people who fit that description throughout history have all faced the same problems as we do today. Therefore, to lable this as a crisis is nothing more than ridiculous!!!!!!!!
Today people are more aware because of the internet. There is no crisis
Whacked out..
I chose to convert because I find the Jewish religion right for me. I don’t want to believe that HaShem became a human. I like the idea of Shabbos.
If he’s already been circumsized medically, he will have a pin prick which is supposed to be less painful.
I don’t know what else to tell you. Actually, we don’t believe in pushing people to convert who don’t want to. Maybe you should find someone Jewish. There are a number of sites out there. There’s JDate, of course. Frumster and SawYouAtSinai both have versions for the lesser affiliated.
Michal – 1) I used to be fire and brimstone Baptist.
Hmmm, that’s the second time someone brought this up on this thread
Actually was showed a picture/graph lately that explained the crisis.
(this might have been said earlier but i’m not reading all 69 comments, sorry)
It’s because of the age difference people marry.
If men get married at age 25 and women at age 18 then it is not going to line up.
for example if there are 1000 people in this year’s “group” then 11000 in the next year’s group, then 1200 in the next and they line up asymetrically due to age, then you have a “gap”. (100 girls left over each year in this particular example)
One “solution” recommended is to have men marry only women of their age. We’ll see how that goes lol.
And yes, men who convert have to do a “pin prick” In fact MANY BT men also have to do this b/c their childhood brit was not kosher. It really only hurts for a few days, the most painful part being the disinfectant they usually use.
Where was it in the Talmud that it was said a man should learn a trade, plant a vineyard, build a house and only then look for a wife?
This rush to get married and churn out babies at twenty means that we are creating a generation of Jews with no survival skills, little chance at economic self-sufficiency and just about no hope of entering marriage as mature, responsible, emotionally secure adults. That isn’t good for the next generation of Jews. It isn’t good for them, and it isn’t good for our future. A guy who is too young to order a beer, with an education consisting only of theology and religious law in an insular environment is in no way prepared to financially and emotionally support a family.
A girl at the same age is perhaps a little more mature, but she’s not prepared for anything except producing babies and the most dead-end sort of work. If her marriage fails, and given these arrangements the cards are stacked that way, she will have to support several children with no skills and no prospects of finding another husband.
Don’t bother quoting Hebrew at me on this one. I’m not terribly concerned with what your rabbi thinks or how long you think I’ll spend in Hell over this opinion. I’m more worried about our future as a people and our ability to function as happy, productive Jews in a world where we are a tiny minority with numerous enemies. Navel-gazing won’t save us. Denying the real world will not save us. Hoping that Moshiach will come and save us didn’t work for shit in Germany and won’t save us now. It is up to us, and that means we must first make our families solid, functional and self-supporting. Anything else is ethnic suicide.
If that means that the increasingly insane chumras and the current fad of “shomer negia” have to retreat from the psychotic into the merely neurotic or (Heaven forfend!) the actually sane that’s a sacrifice we should be willing to make. The Tallitban might not like it. G-d grant the Modesty Squads should suffer a collective fatal attack of apoplexy before they beat up another grandmother for not sitting at the back of the bus or pour acid on another little girl’s face. It will be better for the Jews and for Judaism.
God allowed the Nazis to take control because so many Jews were leaving Orthodox Judaism and intermarrying.
These were working citizens, not criminals, with job skills.
yeshiva dude wrote:
Wow. You’ve accomplished a minor miracle here. You got me to admit that Mohammed was wiser than a Rabbi. When one of his friends said “You told me to trust G-d. I trusted Him, and my camel still wandered off,” he said “First tie up your camel. Then trust in G-d.”
Or if you’d like it a different way which doesn’t include Muslims here’s a story:
A Rabbi was known far and wide for his piety and faith. No matter what he put his faith in the Almighty.
One day the town he lived in was warned there would be a flood. He didn’t forbid his congregation from leaving. But he announced that he would trust in the Name.
After everyone had left the police drove by and said “The flood is going to be here soon. Let us give you a ride.”
He replied “I put my trust in the Master of the Universe, not men.”
The waters rose, and he was forced to climb up to the second story of his home. As he looked out the window a boat came by. The rescue workers said “Rabbi, you’ve really got to come with us. The waters aren’t anywhere near cresting.”
He replied “Hashem will save me.”
A few hours later he was perched on top of his chimney, and the flood was still rising. A National Guard helicopter came by. The Guardsmen sent down a ladder and said “Rabbi, if you don’t come with us you’ll drown! This is your last chance!”
He said “No matter what you do it’s in the Almighty’s hands. The Master will not abandon His servant.”
A few minutes later he drowned as his house was washed away.
The Rabbi awoke in front of the Heavenly Court and asked “What happened? I had faith. I trusted that You would save me.”
The Lord of Hosts said “Schmuck! I sent you a warning, a car, a boat and a helicopter.”
Former Teacher,
What a load of lies and self-serving bullshit.
Tell it to the Satmar and other Chassidic dead who listened to their navel-gazing Rabbis and didn’t leave when they had the chance. Tell it to their dead Rabbi (may his name and memory be obliterated) who knew and cut a deal with Hitler to save his own cowardly, worthless hide. Tell it to the little babies torn out of their mother’s wombs and shoveled into the ovens. If your pathetic excuse for a deity would do that he wouldn’t be worth cursing let alone worshipping.
I w0rship the just and loving G-d, not your idol.
Former teacher – God allowed the Nazis to take control because so many Jews were leaving Orthodox Judaism and intermarrying.
Who in the hell do you think you are to know what God does and doesn’t do? The Nazis murdered ALL Jews, pious, heretic, and anything in between. They murdered those that worked hard, those that hardly worked, and those that learned all day. They also murdered non-Jews that happened to have some Jewish ancestry.
Jews are commanded to NOT rely on miracles. Sure we give great thanks to Hashem when they do occur, but we cannot rely on them. That means that we need to first and foremost rely on ourselves, and to ensure that we can protect our own people (yes, including maintaining an arsenal of the best weapons and ensuring that our enemies don’t acquire anything equal or better).
I daven every day that Mashiach will come immediately, but I don’t stop my life and count on it. Thank God, it’s “former” teacher for you, so you don’t continue to pollute students minds with such nonsense!
A. Nuran (a.k.a moron!!),
You are indeed from the dummest cliche artists I have ever met. That story you just wrote about which wasted my time as well as everyone else here’s on is one of the oldest dummest stories that everyone in the world uses. Additionlly it shows me that you have zero skill when it comes to reading comprehension and anylization. What I was trying to say was not that hashem will just do everything for you while people like you just sit on their asses and complain their not being answered. To the contrary!!!!! I explicitly stated you bumbling dousche bag that “You must do what you can ” before saying that hashem will take care of the rest. So the next time you write up a 500 word essay of nonsense, perhaps you should actually put some thought into it before wasting our time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A. Nuran,
Rabbi Meir said: if a man doesn’t teach his son a trade, it’s as though, he taught him to steal.
Kiddushin 82a
I heard that story about the flood with so many variations. I’ve hear 3 boats and a helicopter, 2 boats and a helicopter… etc.
I actually blogged about this. I called it, “controversy ahead: who should work?”
A. Nuran,
It looks like this phrase, “First build a house and plant a vineyard” is in Sotah 44a or maybe Sotah 24 something.
Michal, thanks very much for the references.
yd, I make a good living doing very difficult analysis and making sense out of obscure documents.
If you are, in fact, a yeshiva student I suggest that you go to your teachers for some extra tutoring in logic and rhetoric. Or make some time to visit the Nizkor Project dedicated to the victims of the Shoah. There is an excellent section on logical fallacies. I particularly recommend the entries on “personal attack” and “ad hominem” with an option on “ad hominem tu quoque”.
Yeshivah dude -
There is no crisis what rock have you been sleeping under.Oh woops I forgot ur a boy.How about telling that to girls sthat have been back from seminary for 5 years and they can’t get a normal boy to date, because they are not “Yichusdik enough, rich enough…”
Everybody always says there is no problems no crisis until they are the one with the problem.There isn’t a crisis when 18 year old s aren’t married.It’s a crisis when i can give you lists of thousands of girls from the middle/upper 20-’s -60’s that are not married not because there picky but because they have been rejected because their last name isn’t _______, or because their father isn’t the Jewish version of Donald trump.
The boys have these rediculious lists-they think that they are Moshe Rabbeinu the II what is so great about them?(I am refering to the Yeshivish dating system) I am fed up.If you read any of my other previous posts you will see how frum girls are so degraddaed and humiliated in this shidduch system.
Lakewood Machmir-I am what you would consider to be a typical Bais yaakov girl-I don’t suggest singeles always mingiling.However by a wedding there are so many bochurim and single girls why can’y they meet for just dessert with supervision.Its nuts! Maybe a boy will see a girl that his mother said no to because his mother thought that she wasn’t pretty enough.However,maybe the boy will think that she is pretty and will want to date her.It is only because of his warped mother that this boy is not dating this girl!
Mothers of bochurim that are in the parsha-Don’t even get me started on that topic-all I want to say on that topic for now is most mothers of boys have a lot of clapping al chet to do when it comes to Yom Kippur!
Yeshiva Dude, take a look at The Nizkor Project dedicated to the memories of the victims of the Shoah. There is an excellent section on logical fallacies. I particularly recommend the sections on the Personal Attack, the Ad Hominem with an option on the Ad Hominem Tu Quoque. The knowledge will serve you well in your future academic career.
And by the bye, YD, your fatalism would do the Arabs proud. If doing something stupid hard enough doesn’t work it’s “The will of Allah”.
A saner approach would be to change what you’re doing when it leads to bad results. Denying that there is a problem and redoubling one’s efforts is simply crazy.
a. nuran, mark, do either of you have blogs?
This post as EVERYthing!
-hellfire preachers
-Jews bickering
-a “crisis”
What more could you ask?
Couple things I wanna say:
The hellfire thing is really better done by Southern Baptists. They’ve been practicing and have the script down pat. I didnt spend the last year or so studying, changing my diet and lifestyle for worn out old tricks like that. (Side note, Michal bas Avraham having been a Baptist explains a few things…)
As far as young people not getting married goes, thats also considered a big problem in Japan. The birth rate is dropping like a stone and surveys show young adults here have no interest in marriage. I’ve got no first hand experience with this Shidduch crisis, but from what I’ve read there are some parallels with the situation here.
Young adults who avoid marriage seem to have often grown up where their lives were economically far better than their parents at the same age. They seem to have been relatively spoiled as children and are essentially delaying the transition to full adulthood. Its a glorified version of the Peter Pan syndrome.
The second part where I see things similar is the widespread unrealistic expectations of young adults in terms of potential mates. By setting the bar too high they can avoid as above while blaming the situation on others.
Finally, Japan also has some to lots of segregation of the sexes in childhood. From what I’ve seen this really does often lead to a complete inability to relate as young (or full) adults.
(does this reply put me in the doctoral thesis category?)
About the “pin prick” thing? It aint always a pin prick, it might be a small scalpel incision. The only pain I experienced was the injection of the local anesthetic and it healed pretty quick. The pain of the shot was about the same as the shot you get at the dentist.
They give you a shot, DOWN THERE?
OUCH!
I’m so glad I’m a woman, no wonders why most men aren’t running to convert…
MbA,
It wasnt so bad honestly. I’ve had far worse shots at the dentist. As far as healing went I was “back in the saddle” within 48 hours.
(REALLY long response to other topics seems to be stuck somewhere)
Joy, I understand the concern and the cause for complaint, but what are you going to do about it? It seems that one simple solution is to date guys who are typically themselves rejected for being “too modern.” Speaking for myself, I couldn’t care less about a girl’s family lines or money – I’m just looking for someone who doesn’t freak out that I read philosophy,went to college, and own a tv.
Joy – It is only because of his warped mother that this boy is not dating this girl!
No! It is only because of the warped system that he isn’t dating her. The disrespect you show your great-grandparents (hakedoshim) is amazing – they met their spouses the usual way, by permitting boys and girls to socialize when appropriate, and here you are attempting to be frummer than them, in a false made-up-halacha way. To me that is gravely disrespectful. Try to remember how Yakov found his wife Rachel. The worst thing of all is that this made-up-system is causing great harm to people, can anyone imagine that Hashem really wants us to have such a cockamamie system that not only doesn’t work, but causes harm?
Puzzled,
I am with you on that. I feel your pain, but I can’t say too much because I’m one of those crazy girls with a secular education wanting to graduate law school before I get married. Yay for philosophy and TVs! :-p
Well, Sarah sounds like a great match for me…at least after law school.
Hahaha well by the time I graduate law school I’ll be on the verge of that “shidduch crisis old maid” phase of life.
Yes, well, I for one wouldn’t mind a wife over the age of 18, seeing as how I’m 27 now.
Former Teacher, A. Nuran, Mark:
A rabbi I know said (or perhaps was quoting someone else) : “There were 6 million reasons for the Holocaust and I don’t know any of them.”
A rabbi I know said (or perhaps was quoting someone else) : “There were 6 million reasons for the Holocaust and I don’t know any of them.”
I find that statement to be disgusting. It implies some sort of “blame” or individual reason be placed on each of the 6 million murdered Jews. I find it hard to believe that a serious Rabbi would say such a thing.
I don’t think that was his intention. He was saying that in response to religious Jews who say, with an air of arrogance, “The holocaust happened because people weren’t frum.”
I don’t think that was his intention. He was saying that in response to religious Jews who say, with an air of arrogance, “The holocaust happened because people weren’t frum.”
I don’t know any religious Jews that say that! Frankly, I am not sure I would consider someone who said such a thing to truly be “religious”. Who said it? Any links to reporting of such statements?
Mark-
You said The disrespect you show your great-grandparents (hakedoshim) is amazing !
Uh excuse me I am from the “yeshivish circles’ boys who share my hashkafa in life would never dare to meet me in the ways that you suggest.If I would do your suggestion anyway then people will think that I am a bum! Don’t come to me with you shouldn’t be dating those kind of boys when 99% of frum yeshivish boys date this way!
I agree that the shidduch system needs to be changwed and I wish that things are the way they are!
The stupid lists the boys have like I’m some prize cow on the market!
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