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Are folks who believe the Rebbe is the moshiach really Apikorsim?

lubavitcher- rebbeI have always wondered about the Meshichists (messianic chabad movement that believes the Rebbe is the messiah) as many of us have. Chabad is infamous because of it and I have heard many people say outright that they wouldn’t have anything to with chabad because of it. I have even heard some folks say that Lubavitch is the closest thing to Judaism we have – I take offense to all this – being a big fan of chabad and understand their pain, since most of them are not of this belief (just because they are addicted to their rebbe – doesn’t mean they all believe he is the moshiach). An article today on Vos Iz Neias is likely to be filled with hateful comments – one must wonder how long the friendly attitude of the non-chabad world lasted after the terrorist attacks of Mumbai – the article is about this Rabbi who takes an open stand against Meshichists in his book in which he calls them Apikorsim.

Are people who believe in the Rebbe being moshiach really Apikorsim?

I always thought that to be a true apikores you had to know all of torah and then go against it, what about all the folks who just believe because their parents believe? Does this Rabbi Menashe Klein really think that everyone of this movement is brilliant enough in torah and be going against it?

My other issue is this: No one has ever actually been able to tell me if believing a dead person is the moshiach is against halacha. I have a couple of meshichist acquaintances and although they insist I get hammered via fabrengin before they tell me the reasons – they tell me their is halachic and scripture based backing to their decision (I have learned that anything can be backed up if you skew translations or ideas) but no one has ever actually told me that its against the torah.

I have heard all the arguments against believing the rebbe is the moshiach – which are all tirades which end up being anti-chabad as a whole and never really informed. I was at the Rebbes funeral, but one meshichist told me that they switched the bodies and that Charlie buttons is Eliyahu and that the Rebbe is hiding out in 770 somewhere – I should note that this Rabbi was kicked out of chabad and practices witchcraft and abuses drugs, so maybe he wasn’t the best person to talk about this sort of thing.

I have heard the flipside from a chabad Rabbi wishing not to be mentioned – he said that chabad is a cult (hew was born into it) and that 99% of chabadnicks believe in the rebbe being the moshiach in some way they just don’t admit it (I doubt this) and his superiors hate him for it because he is a freaking shliach with dissenting opinions.

I myself would never become chabad just because I personally don’t believe in being part of one group, I don’t agree with any one group that much – I just think chabad does the best job at what they do – yes there are problems such as the one listed above – or is it really a problem?

I wonder if anyone will take the meshichist friendly side?

Please try to keep this sane – don’t be hateful – be smart!

{ 253 comments… add one }
  • mg May 7, 2009, 6:29 AM

    I dont see the big deal, its really clear in Sanhedrin (last perek, cant remember the daf), every talmid in the time of the gemora believed his rebbe was moshiach, and they came up with pesukim to justify it. (one of the yeshivas had a teacher named menachem, but thats besides the point)

    On the other hand, It’s hard to find a jewish person alive who didnt respect the rebbe, and its clear that he was into moshiach, (especially in the nuns) Theres no doubt that some people take it too far, the rebbes’ main message was to spread yiddishkiet, I dont see where they decided this was the required method, but thats not my issue.

    If you can look past the crazies who think that the rebbe is hiding out under 770, you realise that the rebbe clearly said in the 50s (after he succeeded the previous rebbe) that the previous rebbe was moshiach, and also that he was alive in a physical body … how? no idea, but due to the respect i have for the Rebbe, I wont say that it’s incorrect, he said alot of things that i dont understand, this isnt the first or the last. (Just btw the rebbe went to the ohel of the previous rebbe at the very least monthly, even though he clearly said that he was alive.)

    • michael February 18, 2010, 6:08 PM

      daf 98 amud bais

  • Tuvia May 7, 2009, 6:29 AM

    I do agree that I could never be Chabad. I definitely do not believe that the Rebbe is moshiach, however I love Chabad and the things they do. They are such a welcoming and amazing group of people. They always try and help anyone, no matter who it is. How can you say something bad about a group like that.

    On a separate note, I got an email yesterday from Chabad for the “emergency funding drive” and the click to donate link was broken. It took me to a page that didn’t exist haha.

  • fakewoodnj May 7, 2009, 6:31 AM

    I am just glad someone stood up to these crazies but I wish he had been a little less harsh

  • jorge May 7, 2009, 7:00 AM

    Meshichistim claim to get their haliachic proofs from the Rambam, Laws of Kings. A quick look at those chapters in the Rambam show easily that the ‘proofs’ selected therein are highly out of context, and eclipsed by other sure halachot which render it impossible for the Rebbe, Z”l, to be mashiach. Its a tragic and overexposed movement in an otherwise praiseworthy group.

    • Anonymous September 22, 2011, 8:06 AM

      explain why it’s impossible.

  • mg May 7, 2009, 7:00 AM

    jorge, can u give a few examples.

  • Jack In The Box May 7, 2009, 7:03 AM

    The dead are dead 4ever.

  • Frum Satire May 7, 2009, 8:22 AM

    Elvis never died

  • Some Jew May 7, 2009, 8:38 AM

    You don’t have to know the whole torah to be an apikorus. Rav Brisker ZTL said nebach an apikorus is oich an apikorus–an apikorus due to unfortunate circumstances –no fault of his own–is still an apikorus. Most tinok shenishba fall under this category; they don’t know better so they don’t get olam haba, but they don’t get punished either.

    To be an apikorus, you either have to disagree with the 13 ikarim intentionally or unintentionally; or you have to disagree with something outside the 13 ikarim the torah says intentionally.

    You can also have beliefs that are apikiorus without being an apikorus…if you disagree with the torah unintentionally (because you are too dumb or ignorant to figure it out) but still believe the 13 ikarim; you are not a defacto apikrous although your beliefs are. Most mesichistim fall in this category. You can still count them in a minyan, and they can still make kiddush for you etc. However you still have to stay far away from their teachings since they are teaching and preaching anti-torah apikorsus material and should protest when they are misinforming the ignorant.

    Elokhistim–those really wild chabadniks who think the rebbe is Hashem incarnate are defacto apikorsum since this conflicts with the 13 ikarim. Those can not be counted in a minyan, etc.

    • shmuely February 28, 2012, 8:38 PM

      if you justify the lubavitcher dogma ( elokhist or meshichist) as being jewish, wouldn’t that make ‘messianic jews’ jewish just as well? where do you draw the line? The only difference between the Rebbe followers and jesus’s first jewish followers are really….only 2000 years.

      • michael February 28, 2012, 9:08 PM

        Lubavich keep all torah and mitzvos behidur!
        Unlike other groups you mentioned.

        • shmuely February 28, 2012, 9:37 PM

          I did some research, and apparently, according to the book of acts, the first talmidim of jesus kept torah (if you believe this account or what the talmud says on the matter) and made sacrafices in the temple when it still stood. when goyishe sympathizers wanted to be in on it, they ruled that the gentiles had to keep the 7 noachide laws but nothing else. The only thing is, all of those 1st century ‘meshichists’ died off/were persecuted by a beit din and whats left is a bunch of gentiles trying to merge jewish teachings with pagan ideals. what would it look like if the gentile sympathizers and friends of lubavtich tried to ‘convert’?

  • Chanief May 7, 2009, 8:43 AM

    I liken the meshichistim to radical islamists. They make all the noise, they get all of the attention, and they give anyone else in that group a bad name. I don’t think they are apikorsim, they’re just crazy. What can you do with crazy?

    I was raised Lubavitch and am not what one would consider Orthodox anymore. But I have a lot of respect for the good Lubavitch does. You would think, having rejected that lifestyle, that I would have a reason to bash them. To the contrary, I adore them. I think that Lubavitch does more for the Jewish world community than any other organization/group, johnny-come-lately kiruvniks especially. I think a lot of the hate stems from out and out jealousy of Lubavitch’s success, hot women, and independent minds. The meshichistim are the excuse people use for expressing their hatred for Lubavitch. They can start out small by bashing the obvious crazy and then move on to what they really hate, Lubavitch in general.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a shame that meshichistim are able to cast a shadow on the good of Lubavitch, but such is life.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:09 PM

      ur not even frum so u probaly havent learned the sichos yet still u talk what a CHUTSPAH

  • fakewood May 7, 2009, 8:55 AM

    Said R. Na’hman: If Messiah is among the living he is a man like myself, of whom it reads [Jer. xxx. 21]: “And their leader shall be of themselves, and their ruler shall proceed from the midst of them.” Said Rabh: If he is among the living it is our holy rabbi, and if he was from the death it was Daniel

    perek yud aleph of sanhedrin.

    if anyone bothered to read what he said you will see he was saying that people who believe the rebbe is ALIVE are apikorsim. nothing to do with moshiach. furthermore all off this was already said by reb yoel kahn years ago. he basically quoted him.

  • fakewoodnj May 7, 2009, 8:55 AM

    Said R. Na’hman: If Messiah is among the living he is a man like myself, of whom it reads [Jer. xxx. 21]: “And their leader shall be of themselves, and their ruler shall proceed from the midst of them.” Said Rabh: If he is among the living it is our holy rabbi, and if he was from the death it was Daniel

    perek yud aleph of sanhedrin.

    if anyone bothered to read what he said you will see he was saying that people who believe the rebbe is ALIVE are apikorsim. nothing to do with moshiach. furthermore all off this was already said by reb yoel kahn years ago. he basically quoted him.

  • Tevye May 7, 2009, 8:55 AM

    I have to say that the Meshichist side is very dangereous. I am a BT coming from the orthodox Messianic branch. A lot of Messianics base there position’s validity on how the Meshichist still have a place within Judaism. It won’t go anywhere, but it represents Judaism poorly.

    However, I really respect chabadniks and study with a few on a regular basis. They are a very good group of people.

    The role of Moshiach is to also be a prophet, correct? Torah teaches us the disqualifications for a prophet… if what he says doesn’t come true. So, is there anything that the Rebbe, z”l, say that didn’t come true? Seems like that would be the easiest way of disproving it.

    • michael February 18, 2010, 6:14 PM

      Good point!
      all Rebbes prophecies have come true with amazing precision!
      So def. a valid prophet!

      • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:12 PM


  • Some Jew May 7, 2009, 9:02 AM

    Rabbi Aharon Feldman, dean of the Ner Israel Rabbinical College wrote “…it is clear that [messianists] are ignorant of Torah, thus, it is impossible to rely on their decisions in Torah matters… One who believes that amongst all those who have ever lived, the late leader of the Chabad movement is the best candidate to be our redeemer shows that he lacks any understanding of Torah values. The rulings of such a man cannot be relied upon in any matter of Torah, and a fortiori he cannot serve as a leader or Rabbi.”

    Rabbi Aharon Feldman makes a clear distinction between the “Mishichists” and the “Elokists”. He rules that it is forbidden to associate with Elokists under any circumstances due to their heresy and they cannot be counted for a Minyan. He rules it is also forbidden to support the mishichists in any way that lends credence to their messianic beliefs though they are not strictly heretics.

    Rabbi Zev Leff stated, “The concept of a dead Moshiach who comes back to be Messiah is not a Jewish concept.” Also, “To daven [pray] in a shul [synagogue] where the majority have crooked ideas about Yiddishkeit [Judaism] and recite things that have no place as part of the davening [prayer], better not to daven in a shul like that.”

    Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg, a rosh yeshiva of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel, told an enquiring student (even before the Rebbe’s death) that he should pray alone rather than in a Chabad synagogue because “they pray to a different deity”.

    January 17, 2000, the Chief Rabbinate of Israel released the following announcement: “Individuals who are undesirable in the eyes of rabbinic scholars are exploiting the signatures of Rabbis and turning the simple faith in the coming of the Messiah into propaganda whose end cannot be foreseen. One must be careful and warn people that one must believe in the straightforward faith that the Messiah will come as our Rabbis have taught us, and anyone who adds diminishes.”

    The Executive Vice President of the Orthodox Union, Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb stated “The belief [messianism] is certainly not mainstream Judaism, and in the eyes of many is a blasphemy to Judaism.

    • Chaim April 22, 2013, 1:27 AM

      I am not a Lubavitcher but I would like to make note that Rabbi Aharon Feldman has come out against even the normal Lubavitch movement before.

  • fakewoodnj May 7, 2009, 9:06 AM

    you just quoted people who called lubavitch apikorsim when we started the kiruv.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:10 PM


  • prili May 7, 2009, 9:08 AM

    Wow, well put Chainef! I’m with you all the way.

  • Puzzled May 7, 2009, 9:22 AM

    If I understand correctly, it seems that to claim that mesichists are outside of Jewish thought, one would have to go against R’Aaron. My teacher had smicha from the Rav, so I tend to lean on the Rav and R’Aaron when I don’t have a solid opinion on the matter.

    Where do we learn that an apikoris is someone who denies any of the 13 articles? I’m not challenging, I’m asking, because that seems odd to me. There was plenty of opposition to the Rambam, both on writing articles of faith and on the content of his articles. What was the halacha before the Rambam?

  • ghottistyx May 7, 2009, 10:09 AM

    My first exposure to the controversy was in the summer of 1993, while the Rebbe was still alive. That summer I went to Camp Regesh in Moonsey. My best friend there was Chabad (long since gone off the derech). I spent many a shabbos by him. At the time, he was my Lubavitch friend, and most of what I know about Chabad was from the weekends I spent by him. I recall that his stepfather used to make us take our tefillin off during Aleinu and hurry out of the shteibl they davened in and would never tell us why. One time, I peeked in the window and heared the kids–who were standing in front of the aron–reciting “yechi adoneinu…” and the adults repeating after them. My friend’s stepfather grabbed my arm and hurried me away. He would not explain why. I rescently asked my friend about this, and he had nothing to say (he and his stepfather weren’t close).

    The closest thing I’ve seen to a persuasive argument against meshichism is David Berger’s book “The Rebbe the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference”. He starts out with a nice history of meshichism. Once he started blaming the ENTIRE movement and calling for denunciating of Chabad as a whole until it disowns itself from meshichism, I put the book down and never picked it up again. I actually have been in the presence of people who refuse to drink wine with a Chabad hechsher because it’s “yayin nesach”.

    One can liken them to the early Judeo-Christians; to the Sabbateans; or even to those who believe that Elvis, 2Pac, Jim Morrison, or Jimmy Hoffa never died. But I ask what halakha, if any, they violate. I know that a false messiah, like a false prophet, is supposed to be put to death, but does this include those who believe in one? Why can’t we include a possible eilu v’eilu here? Unlike Shabbetai and Jesus, these meshichists are not calling for people to stop following halakha. If they were, there would be reason to actively disown them–aside from possible implications of avodah zara (which some say 770 has become).

  • Phil May 7, 2009, 10:25 AM

    Check the old posts for more yechi arguments. Bottom line is the Rebbe once wrote a letter that I have in a book (Letter and the spirit), specifically stating that according to the Rambam, none can call anyone moshiach until he rebuilds the beis hamikdash in it’s place. So anyone that claims to follow the Rebbe’s teachings, should adhere to this reasoning.

    Very sadly, many Lubabs in big communities such as the one I live in, will gobble anything said in the name of the Rebbe. A few weeks ago, the yeshiva my kids attend had an emergency fundraising / etortion meeting with the parents. The guy in charge had the nerve to imply that the Rebbe said that each family being mosar nefesh by donating $2000 will bring moshiach. I walked out at that point.

    An interesting side note on informers, apikorsim, and apostates (off the derech):

    The Rambam views them as worse than gentiles, basically says they should be shoved into a pit and left there, do not have a portion in olam haba (hilchot edut, chapter 11). I doubt we can lump the yechi crowd into that category, as much as I would sometimes like to.

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:31 PM

      The Rambam does not say the beis hamikdash must be built in it’s place, but in his place, meaning moshiach. The Rebbe explains that the Beis Hamikdash is a reference to the Mikdash Me’at in Bavel, the House of the Nasi, meaning 770.

  • AS May 7, 2009, 10:25 AM

    To believe in a false moshiach is definitely apikorsis. One of the Talmidim of the Node B’Yehudah was faced with an interesting shaileh that shows this. They had a Sefer Torah that was written by someone, who had been a follower of the false moshiach Shabsai Tzvi, but they did not know whether or not he wrote it while he was a follower of Shabsai Tzvi or while he was not a follower. The difference was that if he wrote it while he was a follower, then it would have a din of being a sefer torah sh’kasav bo min yisaref (A Torah that was written by an apikores must be burned). If he wrote it while he was not a follower, then it would be kosher to use. If I recall he poskined to burn it even though it was only a safek, but you see that following a false moshiach is a form of kefirah.

    Almost every single opinion on this topic says that Moshiach will come from the living, not the dead. There is 1 opinion that says he can come from the dead (I forgot who). I don’t know why you would possibly want to rely on a daas yachid (lone opinion) in this situation. Even if you do rely on the daas yachid, why would the Lubavitcher Rebbe be the Moshiach over, say, Moshe Rabbeinu or the Avos or the Tannaim, Amoraim, Rishonim, etc. The Rambam writes that Rebbe Akiva new that Bar Kochba was a false Moshiach when Bar Kochba died. Meaning, death of the “moshiach” was the determining factor in knowing that he was not really the moshiach.

    I love Chabad. They were mekarev me. Most of them are definitely not moshichists. I have had many conversations with them on this topic. Most regular Yeshivishe poskim consider consider regular Chabadniks to be perfectly acceptable yidin. I had Chabad witnesses at my wedding, under the presence of very significant poskim in our community. I have spoken with multiple poskim on this issue and Chabadniks are not automatically considered moshichists. The ones that are openly moshichists are highly questionable. Their exact halachic status is very questionable. I was told not to daven in a Chabad shul (non-moshichist) where the Baal Koreh was a moshichist. In many communities now Chabad has split up over this issue because the 2 points of view are incompatible with each other – and rightfully so.

    • michael February 18, 2010, 6:21 PM

      sdei chemed says clearly that moshiach could come from the dead.
      I am not aware of any other posek (beside ner yisroel guys & company) that proves that moshiach cannot come from the dead.
      if you have any sources i would like to know.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:16 PM


      • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:34 PM

        were Moshiach to be Moshe Rabbeinu (which it can’t be, for his is no scion of David) or David Hamelech himself, how would you recognize him? Chazal teach that in every single generation there is a man fit to be Moshiach, someone in the generation whom every one recognizes as a great Torah scholar and of great personality.

    • Chaim April 22, 2013, 1:33 AM

      Reread the Rambam it says when he was killed for his sins he was not moshiach.

  • Orthowatch May 7, 2009, 10:28 AM

    The Lubavs who aren’t Meshichists shouldn’t be feeling any pain. The comment wasn’t directed at them, only at the ones who think the Rebbe is still alive and is Mashiach.

  • Chaviva May 7, 2009, 10:29 AM

    If these folks are like the Sabbateans or Judeo-Christians or anyone else, then eventually they’ll just be laughed off the face of mainstream and fade into a small unbelievable group of people, right? But that hasn’t exactly happened yet, and I think that’s what’s troubling. I think that the Lubavitchers who DO NOT believe these things are in a sense enabling those who do.

    The rebbe was never anointed, was he? I mean, mashiach means anointed one.

  • Chaviva May 7, 2009, 10:36 AM

    Oh, and FYI: I love Chabad. Chabad on campus made me a home when I started in graduate school. I love the rabbi and his wife and their kids, and I love Chabad.org. I’m not a hater, I am just someone who had to leave a Shabbaton in Crown Heights halfway through because I was intimidated and freaked out by the rebbe being EVERYWHERE.

  • ipitythefoo May 7, 2009, 10:45 AM

    I have friends who are Lubavitch, I also have friends who are Lubavitch and believe the Rebbe is Moshiach. I see no way that any Jew can suggest that these people are Apikorsim. My community has ALOT of ‘anti’s’ and moshichists- both are looked down upon by the MO and Yeshivish circles. Even other chassidishe people look down on the Chabadnikim. Its really a sad situation of Sinat Chinam in my opinion. We have to learn that there are 70 ways to follow the Torah. Moreover, if you do believe Moshichists are 1,000,000 % wrong you should try to help them see truth, not simply put good people and Yiray shamayim in cherem.

    WITHOUT A DOUBT Chabad is bringing the light of the Torah to multitudes of Jewish neshamas – I think that this psak was intended to distance the mainstream from a group that much of the Jewish world views as radical, but instead of accomplishing that its just reflects poorly on the institution of Chabad. It will also further the (c”v) degradation of the Rebbe himself, who some feel the need to belittle because of the mistakes of his chassidim.

    By nature I’m a lover of all Jews, we need to spread Torah by showing the world the good in ourselves and trying to correct the flaws in Judaism with loving kindness and self appraisal.

    Finally, I think there is also a large problem in MO and Yeshiva communities where people don’t speak about moshiach enough. This topic has become taboo in Bais Yaakovs and shuls of that nature, because it’s somehow related to being ‘misinformed’ or too ‘chassidish’. maybe the Rabbanim should address that too.

  • Tevye May 7, 2009, 10:48 AM

    @ghottistyx, you said:

    “Unlike Shabbetai and Jesus, these meshichists are not calling for people to stop following halakha.”

    Your right that the meshichists aren’t calling for everyone to stop following halakha, but your premise is wrong… at least for jesus. Look at Messianics today… look at Beit Emmanuel, they have a nice mikvah. Look at FFOZ, they have built a little yeshiva and it is looking nice. They aren’t studying the scriptures from a Christian perspective, they are studying it from Rabam, Rashi, Chofetz Chaim, Akiba, etc… does that make them legit?!

    If they claim someone is messiah, whether or not they keep halakha, means that they’ve removed themself from Judaism… because Messiah hasn’t been proclaimed yet. In this regard, the Meshichist and Messianics are the same.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:23 PM

      i dont understand didnt u ever here of miyad where the rebbe says clearly that it means dovber (rebbe rashab) yosef yitschok (frierdiker rebbe) and moshiach shemenachem shmoi for all of you who learn gemmorah its pretty simple if u put the fact that the rebbes name is menachem and that the previous rebbes names were dovber and yosef yitschok, and it seems to be going down in order of lubavitch rebbes it seems pretty clear that the rebbe is referring to himself
      yechi adoineinu moreinu verabeinu melch hamoshiach leolam voed

  • AS May 7, 2009, 10:57 AM

    The moshichist topic really has nothing to do with sinas chinim. It’s a halachic shaileh, plain and simple. Believing in a false moshiach is apikorsis – that’s a halachaic point, not sinas chinim. Could the Rebbe be the moshiach is a matter of halacha, not sinas chinim. Are moshichists apikorsim is a halachic question for gedolei poskim to answer. I asked the question to 2 very big poskim and they both refused to answer the question because they felt it was for the gedolim only to answer, again nothing to do with sinas chinim.

    When different groups with just different approaches in yiddishkeit hate each other (say, yeshivish and Tzioni and Chabad and chasidish) that is sinas chinim. But apikoris is something that we must stand firmly against.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:26 PM

      unless u think what the rebbe said is false then there is no apikorsis and i dont think anybody will argue with me that if u disagree with the rebbe it is apikorsis

  • fakewoodnj May 7, 2009, 10:58 AM

    s0 according to you 2 big poskim refused to answer you. when a rabbi refuses to answer it means its not such a poshut answer.

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:37 PM

      or he is ignorant in the mattter

  • AS May 7, 2009, 11:07 AM

    Agreed, it’s not so pashut whether or not Lubavitch Moshichists are apikorsim, but the point was that it’s a point of halacha , not sinas chinim. And in general believing in someone that we know to be a falsh moshiach is a form of apikorsis.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:28 PM

      pshita but the rebbe is not a false moshiach

  • fakewoodnj May 7, 2009, 11:09 AM

    it is sinas chinam because most people who go of on lubavitch did it also in europe and when they started kiruv and then by the tefillin campaign and by shluchim. they are a bunch haters. i curse them all that they should have lubavitcher einiklech.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:29 PM


    • Anonymous April 22, 2013, 1:35 AM


  • Phil May 7, 2009, 11:16 AM


    Apikorsim are defined by the Rambam (hilchot teshuva, chapter 3) as people that deny the Torah, deny the prophets, or maintain that God is not aware of man’s actions.

    Mumorim (apostates) are categorized in the same chapter as people that turn their back on Jewish observance.

    Both categories are passul as witnesses, and as I previously mentioned, should be shived into a pit and not taken out according to Rambam.

    Do you actually believe that the yechi rabbis that keep all or most of the other mitzvos fall into either one of these categories?

  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 11:32 AM

    Regarding AS’s remark, the followers of Shabbtai Tzvi had other strange ideas in addition to thinking he was mesiach. Those issues would have likely been the issue at least in part in such a situation.

    Thinking a certain person is mesiach when they aren’t might be ridiculous. It might be stupid. It might be crazy. But there’s nothing about it by itself that makes a believer an apikorus. Being meshuganah is not the same as being an apikorus.

    There are however, somethings that some mesichistim due which are more problematic. Some of them seem to pray to the Rebbe. This is obviously not ok. But many chassidim all sorts seem to pray to dead people. So if one is a mitnagid then this all looks more or less the same. A very tiny minority of mesichistim have ideas about the Rebbe having some sort of divine essence. This is almost certainly assur and the elokistim are clearly ovdei avodah zarah. But simply believing the Rebbe is mesiach does not make on an apikorus. It is hard to argue that such a belief violates halachah. And even if such a belief does violate halachah, violating halachah by itself does not make one an apikorus.

  • me123 May 7, 2009, 11:34 AM

    every lubav every where (and all chassidim in gen) believe that their rebbe is moshiach, there is no argument on this. (and no contradiction in torah either) Within the lubav circle the issues lie in whether to spread this fact or not….

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:39 PM

      If G-D told you in a dream that tomrrow Moshiach would come and his name was ploni ben ploni, wwhen you woke up, wouldn’t you want to tell the whole world?

  • fakewoodnj May 7, 2009, 11:37 AM

    you are wrong wrong wrong and misguided. that is a meshichist lie.

  • Some Jew May 7, 2009, 11:43 AM


    It’s not so much what happened beforehand…None of the content of the 13 ikarim are debated; it’s just there was some debate as to how many one had to believe in to get olam haba. Since rambam, it was pretty much accepted by all of klal yisrael and became a halacha that all 13 are now required; so that is the halacha l’masseh for klal yisrael. I am not aware of any opinion of chazal since then that say otherwise.

  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 11:44 AM

    me123, I know many lubavitchers. I’m not generally a fan of chabad but I’ve met only a tiny fraction of them who are mesichistim. Many of them thought he might be mesiach when he was alive. But after he died they shrugged and moved on. And I’ve never, ever met a non-lubavitch chassid who thinks that the Rebbe was mesiach. Given that many chassidic groups don’t get along with the Lubavitch (the most obvious example being the long-running Satmar-Lubavitch feud) the idea that they all think that the Rebbe is mesiach is simply ridiculous.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:33 PM

      yeshoua do teshuva u should fast for 40 days for saying such untrue things

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:42 PM

      Firstly, since when does ‘dying’ disqualify someone from being Moshiach?
      Secondly, anyone who says that the Rebbe is Moshiach will automatically be classified a Lubavitcher, so how can a so-called non lubavitcher say the Rebbe is Moshiach.
      Thirdly, Rabbi Solovaitchik personally signed the psak din declaring the Rebbe as Melech HaMoshiach.

      • mENACHEM Mendell April 22, 2013, 1:39 AM

        I have seen the Psak in many places and want to know if it is possibe to get a copy posted in the comments for the public to see.

  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 11:47 AM

    Some Jew, the notion that Klal Yisrael can decide halacha collectively is one thing. Are you claiming that what we decide here actually can effect what happens in the world-to-come? Does that seem either reasonable or just to you?

    (Incidentally, note that being an apikorus is a distinct issue from anything related to olam habah. The Rambam thinks that someone being an apikorus has direct halachic implications in the here and now. It doesn’t have much to do with what happens in heaven)

  • me123 May 7, 2009, 11:49 AM

    i was saying that every chossid believes his OWN rebbe is moshiach, satmar believes their rebbe is moshiach, etc, That is the way of chassidim. unless you can prove me wrong, I dont think there is someone that would call himself a chossid and say that they dont believe their rebbe is moshiach. You can tell me all day how im wrong and lying but until you can find a real lubav that says outright ” i dont believe the rebbe is moshiach…..”

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:34 PM

      the hes not lubavitcher

  • fakewoodnj May 7, 2009, 11:55 AM

    why do i need to say that i dont belive cant i just not be sure. i havent heard a decent argument from either side. and i am a chossid of lubavitch.

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:44 PM

      Learn the Sichos of 5751-5752 and then say that you’re not sure. (By the way, learn every single one of them)

  • Z May 7, 2009, 11:57 AM

    Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
    From the writings of the Rambam

    1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
    2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
    3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
    4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:38 PM

      1 is it not considered nevuah when a mother knows what to name her child im sure when ur mother gave u the name z(eah) it was a nevuah
      2 the rebbe is still alive
      3 how can this be if moshiach will live forever i think u misinterpreted that part of rambam and y would he die after techiyas hameisim

      • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:41 PM

        4 first of all the rebbe comes from the tsemach tsedeks oldest son reb baruch shalom (this is on the rebbes fathers side reb levi yitschok). the tsemach tsedeks father and mother both came from david hamelech i know this to be true because the tsemach tsedek is my grandfather as well

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:49 PM

      1) Where does it say that Nevuah is only in Eretz Yisroel?
      2) The reason Bar Kochba waas disqualified as the Moshiach is because his mission (in his generation) was to tdefeat the Romans. Since he was KILLED (and perforce failed in his mission, because the romans killed him), his Dor was obviously not fit for Moshiach.
      The Rebbe’s mission was to bring Yidden closer to Yiddishkeit, and spread the news of the Redemption, and ultimately redeem the Yiddin. his ‘passing’ has not halted his mission in the least

  • Some Jew May 7, 2009, 11:58 AM


    See my previous post where I said none of chazal since rambam dispute it which is enough to say it is accepted defacto by klal yisrael.

    Regarding Olam haba–see Rambam’s 24 categories of people (M.T. Tshuva 3:6f) denied olam habah—the apikorsum/koferiem are clearly part of that list.

  • me123 May 7, 2009, 11:59 AM

    its ok to be not sure if the rebbe is alive or not , thats the whole reason for fighting in lubavitch!!!! but for a chossid to say hes not sure if his rebbe is moshiach , could mean one of 2 things, either he didnt learn, or hes not bottul to his rebbe……

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:41 PM


  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 12:01 PM

    me123 , that’s simply ridiculous. Most chassidim don’t believe that. Many might think that their rebbes have potential but that’s a separate claim (and there have been chassidic rebbes who have been kohanim. They can’t possibly be mesiach)

    And many lubavitchers have said outright that they don’t think the Rebbe is mosiach.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:43 PM

      then they cant be lubavitchers

      • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:50 PM

        and they haven’t learnt a word of what the Rebbe, Chazal, the neviim etc. have said

  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 12:03 PM

    Some Jew, so then are you claiming that minhag klal Yisrael can decide who gets olam habah?

  • fakewoodnj May 7, 2009, 12:03 PM

    so your calling me not a chossid because you have learnt so much chassidus. you have no understanding of a connection of a chossid to his rebbe especially in lubavitch which was always different than the poilisher.

    number 4 is not true, he is a descendant paternally. so i have to diqualify evrithing u say as being doubtfull unless i look it up and i dont have patience for that at the moment.

    • mENACHEM Mendell April 22, 2013, 1:43 AM

      The Rebbe said clearly he is a descendent of Dovid Hamelech.
      You say you have no patience for truth so in essence you are saying you are here to fight.

  • Some Jew May 7, 2009, 12:07 PM

    Also Joshua,

    Rambam concludes the 13 articles with:

    “And when the person will believe all these fundamentals and his faith will be clear in them he enters into the nation of Israel and it is a mitzva to love him and to have mercy on him and to act to him according to all the ways in which God commanded us regarding loving your neighbor. And even if he did all of the sins in the Torah due to desire of the emotions, and from his physical aspect’s conquering him, he will be punished for his sins, but he still has a share in the world to come and is among the sinners of Israel. However if he rejects one of these fundamentals he leaves the nation and is a denier of the fundamentals and is called a heretic, a denier, etc., and it is a mitzva to hate him and to destroy him (financially – not physically to kill him. And not to steal either). And regarding him it is said (Psalms 139) “Behold will not the enemy of God be my enemy?””

  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 12:08 PM

    fakewood, all claims of descent to the Davidic dynasty for pretty much everyone are at best questionable.

    In any event, the rest of m123’s list isn’t so off although I get the impression that #3 is more of an idea that Rambam had that most others don’t think. The other issue is that Rambam more or less thinks that someone can only be a potential mesiach. According to him, we only conclude that some is mesiach if they do everything they were supposed to.

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:52 PM

      A Chossid believes his Rebbe. The Rebbe Rashab (the fifth Lubavitcher Rebbe) unequivocally stated that all the Rebbeim (including the Tzemach Tzedek) where ben lben to David hamelech.

    • Chaim April 22, 2013, 1:46 AM

      I can give you name after name to the GRA who has said he is from Rashi who is from Dovid Hamelech so if you dont beleive the GRA maybe we should not count YOU as a frum Jew.

  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 12:09 PM

    Some, that doesn’t answer the fundamental question. Do you think that minhag klal Yisrael decides who gets olam habah and who does not?

  • mg May 7, 2009, 12:10 PM

    I think people are missing the point. Chabad as a movement, on both sides of the aisle believe that the rebbe was an incarnation of moshe rabainu. Just like when moshe spoke it was G-d speaking from his throat, similarly with all 7 rabbeim.

    Our rebbe stated that we were the last generation, the seventh is the generation of moshiach.

    So you ask, does believing that the rebbe is moshiach constitute apikursus?? Clearly these people dont fit into the same category as those who followed shabsai tzvi, for 2 reasons. 1) the rebbe was never disproven as a candidate for moshiach and 2) It doesnt say anywhere that moshiach must be from the living, rambam says he has to have affected the majority of jews of the current generation, which the rebbe clearly did … theres no solid proof that moshiach cant die b4hand.

    The fact is that all this talk of apikursus is apikursus, theres no solid proof of any of the following is apikursus
    – believing that your rebbe is moshiach
    – believing that moshiach can be from the dead
    – believing that the rebbe was the moshe rabianu of our generation

    All you are doing is making false assumptions and trying to hang a large part of lubavitchers on it.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:46 PM

      emes emes emes

  • Some Jew May 7, 2009, 12:13 PM


    Since it is the halacha, yes

  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 12:16 PM

    MG, so now incorrectly someone saying someone else is an apikorus makes the first person an apikorus? That’s going to probably make pretty much everyone an apikorus. The bottom line is that disagreeing about halacha doesn’t make one an apikorus.

    Now, as to the rest of your comment, if you are relying on on Rambam, Rambam explicitly says that the mesiach needs to be a military leader. So, um yeah. Moreover, your comparison to Shabbtai Tzvi is ill-informed. One could just as well try to make the same claims about him. It isn’t at all clear how he was “disproved” the real problem with his followers was the other beliefs they adopted.

    Incidentally, thinking that anyone other than Moshe has the status of Moshe Rabeinu really is apikorsus.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:48 PM

      apikorsus and the rebbe headed tsivos hashem so he was a war leader

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:54 PM

      The Zohar clearly states there is an extension of Moshe in ever generation.

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:54 PM

      Perhaps you are so wise that you can call R’ Shimon Bar Yochai an apikorus!!!

  • Phil May 7, 2009, 12:29 PM


    All chassidim think their rebbe is the “nossi” of the generation, just as in the yeshivot of bavel, each thought their Rosh Yeshiva was “the man”, sometimes even thought he was mashiach.

    Point is that most of you are misusing the word apikores, as per the Rambam’s definition I listed above.

    At most, you might be able to call the yechi guys “am haaretz”, however I know of a few dayanim that are yechi followers. Other than the yechi thing, these guys have more halachic knowledge in the findernail than all the readers of this site combined.

    As much as I can’t stand the yechi movement and am forced to listen to some of the “nutjobs” spewing their brand of reality, I don’t have any ill feelings towards them, nor do I doubt their sincerity or devotion when it comes to other aspects of religion.

    Most yechis are very militant and vocal about the beliefs, which is why people tend to think all lubabs are messianic Jews. If the Anti yechis were as vocal, people would know better.

    It’s knid of like the blacks. People see rappers gloryfying crime, grugs, etc., then tend to lump all blacks into the same stereotype. Why? Because they are the most vocal / noticible faction. Just because a rapper wears his pants around his ankles, does that mean that Obama does too?

  • Joshua Zelinsky May 7, 2009, 12:51 PM

    Phil, saying someone is a nosi is distinct from claiming that they function like Moshe. I agree that much of this thread isn’t using the term apikorus as Rambam would use it. It seems like many people use it to mean “beliefs I don’t like.”

  • SF2K1 May 7, 2009, 1:01 PM

    MG, and the fact that the Rebbe can in fact be wrong doesn’t matter (despite his deification)? I haven’t heard many others warning us that this is the end generation, nor and indicators of it. When this generation passes by, because we are clearly no where near ready for moshiach, what will chabadniks say? Jesus said that he would return in the lifetime of his followers (then concocted reasons for his delay, claiming a generation ment more than his lifetime, etc), and the xtians are still waiting. Same will happen for Chabadniks who understood that lhavdil the Rebbe was going to resurrect immediately as Moshiach.

    In 40 years, I guarantee we’re only going to see more Christianized yechi Chabad understanding of why the Rebbe failed to resurrect from the dead as Moshiach.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:50 PM


  • offthederech May 7, 2009, 1:41 PM

    Those who believe the rebbe is moshiach are crazy, not apikorsim.

    Arguably, people who believe yeshiva should not include secular education are also crazy.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:50 PM

      ur name says it all

  • dude May 7, 2009, 2:34 PM


    just wondering about that last line….
    you do know that the rebbe was a big advocate for that… is he crazy?
    just wondering.

  • Phil May 7, 2009, 2:42 PM


    Here we go again with misquoting the Rebbe. He said that it’s preferrable for kids to wait until 9 years old to start secular studies, would love to see one person show me where is supposedly said it’s forbidden.

    Lubavitch yeshivas (Tomchei Tmimim) all offer some sort of secular program, even if they are optional and of the lowest possible caliber. I personally got fed up with this and some other issues this year, and my kids are switching scools for next year.

  • Homey May 7, 2009, 4:30 PM

    There’s nothing wrong with thinking your Rebbe is Moshiach. That is, until he dies and you still think so. Then you’re not only wrong, but also plain nuts.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:52 PM

      until he dies …………………………….

  • Annon May 7, 2009, 6:34 PM

    There is a difference between believing that the Rebbe is still alive (- and btw there is such a concept that Tzadikim still keep Mitvahs after they pass away, hence some believing that He is alive to an extent), and believing that the Rebbe is Moshiach.

    I’m gonna stop right here, coz it’s late and I don’t have time to write more now….

  • mg May 7, 2009, 7:03 PM


    believing that the soul of moshe rabainu manifest itself throughout the generations is fine, mordechai has that soul, and so do the rabeim according to chabad doctrine … or atleast thats what ive been brainwashed to believe, where does it say otherwise??

    I’m not a crazy, but i can appreciate where they are coming from … you sort of have to learn a slew of sichas and maamarim to even begin to see whats going on, its very insolent to wholesale ignore the rebbe just because you heard that a few people think that he’s alive (and they are talking metaphorically anyways)

  • y merm May 7, 2009, 8:23 PM

    i could just see heshy becoming a big lub

  • Anti-Meshichist May 7, 2009, 9:10 PM

    1. All those who believe that the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe was G-d, a manifestation of G-d, or in any way omniscient or omnipotent are memushad l’avoda zara. They worship false idols. Their shechita cannot be used. Their Torah scrolls have no kedusha. Luckily, not very many people are like this. Unluckily, most chassidim of all sorts believe that their Rebbes are very holy. This is problematic, as most Orthodox Jews have no patience for god-men, but this is more related to the Mitnaged-Chassidic split in the times of the Vilna Gaon than the issue at hand. I’m uncomfortable with some aspects of chassidus, but right now we will ignore it.

    2. All those who believe that the Rebbe did not die are being foolish. All evidence points to his death. Uncertainty regarding his death relates more to the nature of knowledge than any solid proof. Foolishless is not heresy, but it reflects badly on the person. It is analogous to belief that Elvis was alive. You would think less of someone that told you that Elvis was still alive. Similarly, those that believe the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe to be alive are foolish, and thus not to be trusted with leadership positions.

    3. Those that believe that the Rebbe is dead but may be resuscitated as the Moshiach run into theological issues. Simply put, the Moshiach must start and finish the geula. The Rambam says that there are many things a person can do so that we can (without being foolish) consider them the Moshiach, but if they die they are to be considered one of the many righteous Kings of the Davidic line. Those who persist in believing that the deceased is the Messiah are going astry.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 8:56 PM

      ill keep my ”avodah zora” and bring moshiach closer everyday and u stay in galus where ur obviously very happy

    • mENACHEM Mendell April 22, 2013, 1:56 AM

      The main Dr. after the Rebbe;s heart attack impersonally told me that when the Rebbe spoke the first Maamar after the heart attack he flat lined which would seemingly mean he was talking as a dead man. obviously what Dr.s see isn’t necessarily correct.

  • Motti Wein May 7, 2009, 11:41 PM

    One of the main things which separates Judaism from Catholicism is that we believe every Jew is holy and there aren’t different levels of us in our connection to Hashem. While our rebbeim are more learned than we are and we go to them for shaylos, there’s nothing per se which they can do and we can’t.

    That being said, unfortunately we all have today elevated our rebbeim to a Pontiff-like level where they are infallable and can do no wrong. Hence the cover-ups of all the sex abuses and other crimes commited…

    Today every group views their leader in such a light. Whether it’s a chassideshe rebbe or a litvishe rosh yeshiva, it’s hard to find a group that deep down does not look up to their leader in such a way; Chabad happens to be the most outspoken.

    While it’s easy to knock these Moshiachniks, we should realize that (1) we don’t know for sure who Moshiach is and (2) we’re all the same with our own rebbeim.

    Let’s continue doing whatever we do but respect those with different viewpoints. Then will Moshiach come and sort everything out!

  • to MR Chanief // May 8, 2009, 2:06 AM

    thank u thank u Chanief //

    i must have read 300 – 500 comments from this and other sites
    your comment hit it right on the head
    as they say

  • Soul Bratha May 8, 2009, 4:52 AM

    “It’s knid of like the blacks. People see rappers gloryfying crime, grugs, etc., then tend to lump all blacks into the same stereotype. Why? Because they are the most vocal / noticible faction. Just because a rapper wears his pants around his ankles, does that mean that Obama does too?”-Phil
    Thanks for dispelling a streotype that has plagud the African American Community for years.By the way not all of us likes fried chicken and watermellon either.

  • ghottistyx May 8, 2009, 5:09 AM


    As I finished submitting my last comment I realized a major flaw in my argument: there is a different between Christianity as proposed by St. Paul (nee Saul of Tarsus) and the actual beliefs of Yeshua himself. Indeed, many of his immediate followers were probably following halakhic Judaism to some extent. In fact, it is my understanding that Judeo-Christianity professed to be a form of Judaism that only believed in Yeshua being the Messiah. Of course, most of my knowledge of these proto-Christians comes from Milton Steinberg’s historic fiction “As a Driven Leaf”, so it may well be inaccurate.

    I’m not directly familiar with either FFOZ or Beit Emmanuel, so I looked them up. Sounds like several ‘meshulachs’ I’ve argued with, including one who was reasonably versed in Tanach (able to hold his own against me), but woefully ignorant in the Ramban and his dispute at Barcelona. Most of our arguments ended with me encouraging him to read the Dispute at Barcelona.

    I guess the tough question is whether these guys are any worse off than the meshicists. That even if one was shomer halakha otherwhise, would it matter if they believed that either The Rebbe or Yeshua was Messiah? Yeshua is a tougher area, as most people who believe in him are NOT shomrei halakha, and indeed his name is associated with myriads of attrocities against our people over the years. Thus, it is easier to convince a frum Jew to accept Menachem Mendel Schneerson as a Moshiach than Yeshua. But the issue with Yeshua is more circumstantial; it’s less about Yeshua himself and more about what his followers did with his teachings.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 9:01 PM

      how dare a person as low as you compare the rebbe to yoshke yemachshemoi and then u have the CHUTSPAH to say the rebbes name

  • Observer May 8, 2009, 8:07 AM

    BTW, ghottistyx, you might want to read “James, Brother of Jesus” by Robert Eisenman, and “The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception” by Baigent and Leigh. While there is disagreement on the accuracy of the time line believed by those three authors, they have a lot of interesting ideas. While the first book contains more references to the so-called new testament (NT) than you may care to chase down, both books are worth reading. It is my belief that virtually the entire Xian story is a complete fairy tale, and that the character in their story called Jesus simply never existed, not as portrayed. The real Yoshke was almost surely a Jewish nationalist, a strict observer of Halacha including the chumros of his own group, and the physical brother of James. He had other siblings, including a twin brother, who is referred to by the goyim as Thomas. After Yoshke’s execution by the Romans, Paul, who was perhaps related to Herod, became James’ chief Jewish opponent. Paul was probably an agent of the Romans. His purpose in life was to subvert Joshke’s (and James’) Jewish nationalist movement. He was successful. The reason we never blew the whistle on him (when there were still people around who knew the history) was that our spiritual (and probably physical) ancestors were the Yochanan ben Zakkai crowd, who were on the opposite side of the fence(s) dividing Jews.

    The actual Yoshke is probably best compared to Rabbi Akiva – very popular, thought by some to be potential Moshiach, and dead before successful. Seems to fit the present discussion.

  • Phil May 8, 2009, 9:30 AM

    One more point related to this meshugas:

    All Jews that daven 3 times a day are Moshiachnicks or Meshichists.

    The clowns that proclaim that the Rebbe is still alive and/or moshiach should be reffered to by another term. I prefer yechis or yechi people, others prefer idiot, jackass, etc.

    To call them meshichists is an insult to the religion and to those that believe in moshiach,

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 9:44 PM

      obviously you dont daven to know that all jews do daven 3 times a day even snags lehavdil

  • interesting to note May 8, 2009, 12:14 PM

    both meshichist and anti are apikorsim: at a farbrengen of either the ratio of mention of the rebbe to that of god is on the order of 500 to 1

    what would the rebbe want
    do x mitzva for the rebbe
    vos tustu farn rebbe


  • Anonymous May 8, 2009, 2:31 PM

    Tzadikim LO Meis— Righteous people never die.
    Therefore, that includes the REBBE, the Vilna Gaon, King David, Moshe, etc… Also, Rashi. There was a Yechi movement for Rashi after his passing. Nothing is new here. Don’t be afraid of this idea in Judaism just because other religions adopted and distorted it later.

  • Phil May 8, 2009, 2:35 PM

    Yaakov lo meis. Does that mean that he was embalmed and buried alive? I think not.

    The idea is a spiritual one, i.e. the tzadik’s spirit and legacy lives on even when they pass away.

    • Chaim April 22, 2013, 2:02 AM

      The Or Hachaim says Yaakov never physically died and proves it from the Pesukim.

  • ghottistyx May 8, 2009, 4:59 PM

    @Ob server: Thanx. I shall bump those up my already long reading list. I’ve come across a few interesting ones myself that make The DaVinci Code look like a veritable source. My favorite is the one about 10 different people named Yeshua who lived over a 200 year period. If indeed he was a student of R. Yehoushua ben Perachya, he would have lived at least 100 BCE. Even the so-called “brit chaddash” is unclear whether he was born in Bethlehem, Nazareth, or what. Some accounts would have him a pure Gallilean, others would have it that he failed in Judea so ended up moving to Gallilee. Either way, the so-called “brit chaddash” is clearly a very unreliable historic source. Much scholarship has been devoted to the cannonization of the Gospels, and this is hardly the venue to discuss that.

    I will say this. Anything beats The Gospel of Mel Gibson. I mean Rachmanu Nitzlan if this is the way the story is actually taught to anyone. I guess my biggest problem with it is that he takes the time to humanize Yeshua, Shimon (Peter), Pontius Pilate, and even Judas Iscariot, but the character of Caephus the Kohen Gadol is simply treated as a vitriolic a-hole purely acting out of spite. Based on what we do know about Yeshua, he spent a good deal of his energy scorning the hypocrisy of the Kohanim at the time (who were mostly Tzedukim), so based on that one could see why Yeshua was a political enemy of Caephus…I see him as a man whose real message was “Avodas Hashem does not have to be painful.” If not for St. Paul et al, he may well have even been a precursor to the Besh’t…how unfortunate that his message ended up being completely distorted as it was.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 9:46 PM

      how could u be reading goyish literture and then quote it have u no shame

  • mg May 9, 2009, 5:44 AM

    someone help me out and tell me where it says that moshiach cannot be dead before he is revealed … It clearly that tzadikim will have tchias hamesim instantly, and eliyahu is the person who will let everyone know that moshiach has arrived ..

    logically if the time of moshiach come sand the tzaddikim rise from the dead, if moshiach is one of those tzadikkim he will reveal himself as such and will lead the jews to israel etc etc.

    pray tell, show me a jewish source that this timeline is inaccurate.

    (note: personally not a mishechist, but im having trouble seeing that their beliefs are against torah)

  • Chosid May 9, 2009, 10:48 PM

    I didn’t read the comments but want to correct your post title. The psak you’re referring to is referring to those that believe the Rebbe is alive and kicking bguf gashmi as apikorsim.

    He then goes on to blast the idea of moshiach min hameisim and explain that this idea is incorrect. But not apikorsus. Nobody holds that. That’s a very important difference.

  • mg May 10, 2009, 3:05 AM

    chosid, so moshiach min hemeisim is not halachically incorrect??

    It disturbs me that its been thrown out as a blanket idiocy, not because i believe the whole mishechist thing, but because the rebbe clearly stated that his father in law was moshiach when he was no longer alive.

    To worry that some mishechistim are apikursim is not my concern, but that the rebbe made such a blatent mistake is a bit problematic …

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 9:49 PM

      who are u to say the rebbe made a mistake NO it is u who are mistaken and ur mind is a bit problematic

  • cma May 10, 2009, 10:16 AM

    belief is in the heart
    close your eyes do you think the Rebbe is Moshiach

    I think yes
    and I hope Moshiach comes very soon!

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 9:50 PM

      melch melech melech harabi milubavitch melech melech melech melech chay vekayom guf gashmi

      • mENACHEM Mendell April 22, 2013, 2:05 AM

        lubavitcher please email me at mendyschoenes@gmail.com. I am a strong beleiver the Rebbe is melech Hamoshiach.

  • chosid May 10, 2009, 10:29 AM

    The bigger problem is to suggest the possibility the Rebbe made a mistake. Don’t attribute your lack of understanding to the Rebbe. There is more than one way to be alive.

  • BT Mishichist May 10, 2009, 11:01 AM

    THE REEBE IS MOSIACH IF YOU DON@T LIKE IT YOU COULD SUCK MY KOSHER LOLLY POP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 9:51 PM


  • LOVE CHABAD May 10, 2009, 11:35 AM

    Bottom line is… there is NOTHING today like chabad… what the Lubavitch Rebbe Accomplished for world jewry NOBODY even comes close.

  • Observer May 10, 2009, 11:45 AM

    BT Mishichist writes:
    THE REEBE IS MOSIACH IF YOU DON@T LIKE IT YOU COULD SUCK MY KOSHER LOLLY POP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    You may be a BT, and you may be a meshichist, but I find it hard to believe that you are a Lubavitcher chosid. You do not sound like any Lubavitcher I have ever heard.

  • Phil May 10, 2009, 11:49 AM

    Love Chabad,

    Let’s not exagerate. Can you actually say that he accomplished more than Avraham Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, Yehoshua, David Shlomo, the tanaim, amoraim, rishonim, acharonim?

    I belive the Rebbe was the greatest Tzaddik I ever met, and I did so on numerous occasions. That doesn’t mean he was the greatest tzaddik that ever lived.

    People that share your beliefs are a major part of the problem. You are closed minded, live in a box and don’t know anything about other Jews!

    Do you actually expect or think that you idea is fact or unanimous throughout worldwide Jewry?

  • WhatThe??????? May 10, 2009, 5:46 PM

    Phil, you’re the best.

    Moses took the Jewish people out of Egypt.

    The Rebbe did not, neither did Yeshu.

    My main problem with Lubavitch is that there is a Mitzva to study Torah day and night. I see Lubavitch who study things that are not Torah, and teach things that are not Torah.

    Essays of Rabbi Shneerson digress from what we are supposed to learn, namely, Halacha and Torah. There is too much emphasis on the esoterical, and not enough emphasis on the practical.

    If you are studying all about Mashiach every single minute of every day, then you will not be able to study practical Halacha.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 9:54 PM


    • Chaim April 22, 2013, 2:07 AM

      please tell me do yo waist time?
      also when moshiach comes will you know the halachos?

  • Michal bas Avraham May 10, 2009, 6:29 PM

    One of the rabbis I took classes from told a story one time. A Jew who wasn’t well-learned was on a plane sitting next to an Xtian who was preaching to him. There was a learned Jew somewhere in earshot. Finally, he couldn’t take it anymore. So, he went to the Xtian and told him that Yashka wasn’t the moshiach, Bar Kochba was. The Xtian argued back that Bar Kochba couldn’t be the moshiach because he’s dead and we still don’t have the third Temple. The learned Jew pointed out the similarity and went back to his seat.

  • A. Nuran May 10, 2009, 7:58 PM

    Love Chabad, Theodore Herzl and David ben Gurion each accomplished more for the Jewish people than Menachem Schneerson could have ever hoped to.

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 9:57 PM


      • A. Nuran March 22, 2010, 5:47 PM

        Nope. Not a mamzer, not pissed (except at the human capacity for delusion and stupidity) and not envious. Thank you for playing.

  • Observer May 10, 2009, 8:09 PM

    A. Nuran,

    If you are younger than I, you will see that you are mistaken. If you were smarter than I, you wouldn’t even have to be younger.

  • chosid May 10, 2009, 10:05 PM

    The same Herzl who wanted to have all the Jews convert r’l? The same atheist ben gurion who ok’d the haganah’s firing upon the altalena? They did more than the biggest talmid chochom, true yiddishe manhig and ohev yisroel of our generation?

  • A. Nuran May 11, 2009, 3:26 AM

    Yes, they did.

    They actually helped Jews in the real world. They created a place where, however tenuously, Jews are not in the ghetto. They helped make a place where we don’t live at another’s sufferance.

    So yes, Observer, I guess I must be smarter than you.

    The late Lubavitcher Rebbe made a lot of pronouncements. But he couldn’t even keep his sect together after his death. His self-agrandizing and oh-so-coy “The Rebbe doesn’t deny that he might be the prospective Messiah” and “He announced that the time of Moshiach is just about at hand” fantasies kept the Lubavitchers from planning for his inevitable demise. In effect, he single-handedly destroyed the continuity of one of the largest branches of Chassidim to feed a delusion.

    He was a wonderful scholar and by all reports a devout and spiritual person. But let’s be real here. The survival of Jews lies in our ability to keep a place in the real world where we can survive. Our safety and continuity do not lie solely in navel-gazing and betting that Moshiach will come and make it all better. They come from hard work in this life to make sure Jews are safe, secure, educated and acknowledge reality.

    • s(b.) March 3, 2010, 10:33 PM

      “Our safety and continuity do not lie solely in navel-gazing and betting that Moshiach will come and make it all better. They come from hard work in this life … ”

      hooray! 🙂

  • Curious May 11, 2009, 4:19 AM

    Quick question:Does anyone know how much a shliach gets paid from Lubavich headquarters(I doubt they do it for free)?

    • mENACHEM Mendell April 22, 2013, 2:11 AM

      Now a days many shluchim get paid at the begining then have to fundraise from there to even put food on the table.

  • Phil May 11, 2009, 8:19 AM


    As far as I heard, they used to get a small insubstantial amount for the first year or two, then they are on their own.

    Basically they are somewhere between a franchise and owner operator. They raise funds that go directly to them, I don’t think they kick anything back to HQ in 770.

    The funds pay for all thei activities, shuk expenses, salaries, etc.

  • Phil May 11, 2009, 8:20 AM

    I meant shul expenses….

  • Observer May 11, 2009, 8:36 AM

    A. Nuran,

    You wrote, “So yes, Observer, I guess I must be smarter than you.”

    Well, regarding Israel, I hope so. However, it appears to me that BG’s legacy was an Israel without a solid foundation, an Israel that exists at the sufferance of the United States. The physical facts, in my opinion, do not dictate these circumstances. Rather, they are a result of BG’s failed ideology. G-d willing, the results will not be seen before my death. G-d willing, you are smarter than I and those results will not be seen at all. If you outlive me, you will see what you will see, and perhaps you will know.

    You wrote, “But he couldn’t even keep his sect together after his death.”

    I’m not sure what you mean by sect, but if you are referring to Lubavitchers as a group, they seem to be quite a together group. The shlichus of the Rebbe carries on just as though he were alive, which is additional evidence of his leadership. The breadth of Chabad influence continues to grow. That this has been happening even as Israel is excoriated by the nations and encouraged to cooperate in its own downfall by the U. S. is what prompted me to note the comparison between BG and the Rebbe.


    You wrote, “Quick question:Does anyone know how much a shliach gets paid from Lubavich headquarters(I doubt they do it for free)?’

    I believe that the answer is “Yes.” To further elaborate, the amount is zip. Zilch. Nada. 770 doesn’t pay shluchim. Typically, I believe, a shaliach will shnorr enough from one person or another (usually a number of people) to support him for about a year. In that year, it’s up to him to figure out how to eat and do outreach at the same time. Although Chabadniks always put outreach ahead of fundraising, there are usually local people who can figure out that it takes money to have a shul and activities and a rabbi with a family. These people are sometimes called Friends of Lubavitch, and may or may not be regular attenders at the local religious services. Regardless, anyone who takes advantage of what Chabad offers should be aware that most shluchim have a constant struggle with finances, and 770 is NOT providing financial support.

    • mENACHEM Mendell April 22, 2013, 2:13 AM

      there are certain funds individuals have set up thrugh the years to help shluchim in the first year.

  • Curious May 11, 2009, 2:20 PM

    Well I’d say thats pretty daring.I mean going somewhere like North Dakota while not knowing if youll raise enough funds to keep it going.Has any chabad house ever gone bust?If they do does 770 have an emergency relief fund ?

  • Telzer May 11, 2009, 2:24 PM

    I think that Heshy is the Moshiach.

  • Curious May 11, 2009, 2:26 PM

    Anouther question.If they are not getting funding what stops someone from opening thier own independant chabad house,also if they don’t get funding who says they will stay true to the teachings of the rebbe,if it’s their own place chances are they will run it thier own way?

  • Observer May 11, 2009, 3:03 PM


    I am a newcomer, and I know of two that have folded. I suspect that there have been others. I’m not sure why you think that 770 would fund attempts that have already failed , when they didn’t fund others, but I have never heard of one, which, of course, doesn’t prove anything.

    Not sure what you mean by an independent Chabad house. I think that they are ALL independent, to the extent that you can say that a chosid is independent from his rebbe. I also am not sure what you mean by all your ifs. I told what little I know, and it is starting to become clear that you know even less than I do about the relationship between a chosid and his rebbe. There’s no if on whose place each one is, and I’m sure that in each case the owner is running it the way he believes the Rebbe would want.

    You somehow have it stuck in your head that “770” runs all the Chabad Centers, and it isn’t true, no matter what your reasons are for believing it. This is not to say that they are not all singing the same tune. They are, and they have annual meetings. But the relationship is voluntary, and is based on a common motivation. The influence of the Rebbe lives, and will grow just as if he were alive. Watch and see.

  • Curious May 11, 2009, 3:09 PM

    It’s just very shocking to me that a rabbi will volentarily not only work for free,but raise his own funds.I mean with the work these guys do Im sure they could make a lot more money being a pulpit rabbi or torah teacher.what’s their motivation?

  • chosid May 11, 2009, 3:27 PM

    Their motivation is that there’s a job to be done and nobody else is willing to do it. A lifetime of learning chasidus will make mesirus nefesh to ratzon Hashem as taught by the Rebbe to be second nature. For a chosid [not me] the instructions of the Rebbe are just as important as a mitzvah doraisa. Doing chitas daily is just as important as putting on tefillin. The only difference is how and when they came down.

  • Phil May 11, 2009, 4:46 PM


    Most states have a rabbi in charge, any new Chabad in the state has to go through him first.
    The rabbi ensures that each gets their “own” district or group to target, so they don’t have to step on each other’s toes.

    I do know of some “rebel” chabad houses that bipassed the system, they are generally shunned by all other Chabads in the area.

  • Curious May 11, 2009, 5:04 PM

    Why would someone want to run a “rebel chabad house”.Unless they were mishichist or elocust?Maybe cracked BT chabadniks who have a load of money,a passion for shlichus, but did not get the proper shliach education at 770?

  • Observer May 11, 2009, 5:58 PM


    You wrote “Why would someone want to run a “rebel chabad house”.Unless they were mishichist or elocust?Maybe cracked BT chabadniks who have a load of money,a passion for shlichus, but did not get the proper shliach education at 770?”

    One that I know of existed long before the Rebbe passed away. The rebel had a lot of money, and was as qualified as anyone else, but he didn’t have permission as described by Phil above, and he has been more or less outcaste as a result. I’m sure that this seems rather strange to you in terms of what his motivation might be. It does to me, too, and to others closer to his background. Nevertheless, he seems to be a sane person. I’m sure that if you heard his reasons, they would sound much better than what I could make up.

  • C May 11, 2009, 6:20 PM

    I would like to point out something to those who compared Mishichistim to the followers of Shabbatai Tzvi and Jesus.

    There is a fundamental difference between the groups. Shabbatai Tvi and Jesus proclaimed themselves to be the Messiah and gathered followers.

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe never claimed to be the Moshiach. Anything the meshichistim say, they’ve come to on their own. Additionally, one may not call the Rebbe an apikores for this reason, because he was not the instigator.

    • Sergey Kadinsky March 3, 2010, 10:58 PM

      Unfortunately, the Rebbe did not have the foresight to predict that this messianic movement would arise, claim him as Messiah, and tear Chabad apart.

      In my opinion, it would have been better to appoint an Eighth Rebbe, and continue having successor rebbes until Moshiach comes.

    • shneur August 9, 2010, 7:57 PM

      Since when does gathering followers mean anything? Yidden follow Halacha. the christian bastard cannot be moshiach for the reasns given by the Rambam, laws of Kings, Chapter 11:4, the unscensored version.
      Shabbsai Tzvi tried changing Mitzvos

  • Observer May 11, 2009, 6:28 PM

    Just to keep the record straight, do you have any credible evidence that some guy named Jesus said he was our Moshiach, or are you relying on the fairy tale which the Xians call the “new testament?”

    • lubavitcher March 3, 2010, 10:04 PM

      after all this im sure u have come to terms that the rebbe is moshiach and chai vekayom so in unison with all of you let us sing loud and joyful yechi adoneinu moreinu verabeinu melech hamoshiach leolam voed

      • BZ September 22, 2011, 2:05 PM

        At least you didn’t say “boreinu”, so I guess I can tolerate you

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