The latest in the Charedi push to ban women from basic freedoms kind of looks like the 1960s civil rights movement, but in reverse. The title of an article “Scuffle breaks out at protest FOR segregated buses” just sounds wrong in so many ways, but it got me thinking that it seems funny that women are never complaining about the tznius issues themselves, as if they didn’t have a voice at all (wait they dont)
In my view it should be the women that are complaining about men pushing into them, after all, I have never been sideswiped by a woman trying to get into a bus or get into anywhere, it is the women who are usually nicer and more civil when it comes to dealing with men – and they seem to be more careful when it comes to tznius.
Seems to me that the men just want to control the women, since they either can’t control themselves or they they just want to exert power in general since they don’t join the army. It seems that if they got to blow up some terrorist training camps they might get the power trip out of their systems and stop having to demand separate this and that – until women just get pissed and stay home with the babies and the kugel.
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{ 41 comments… read them below or add one }
I think you’ve summed it up perfectly!
is it not just easier to ban women from existance? this way, no tznius problems in the first place?! this is pure narishkeit!
Way easier – banning women is the final solution
I totally agree with this, especially the last paragraph.Because its always easier to blame someone else and to be judgemental about their issues instead of your own. Charedi men are thinking “obviously its womens fault if I’m not sexually comfortable, so lets put more restrictions on them instead of me dealing with living in a modern country”
I think that this is true in general. Men are always trying to control women and blame women rather than deal with their own issues. I do complain however about men pushing into me and behaving inappropriately when it does happen. This is rarely happens to me. I have noticed that some men seem to look at women as if they have no right to exist and as if it is somehow a problem that women are around, this is true in and outside the Jewish world. My opinion on this is they have fundamental misunderstandings of reality. The fact of the matter is men wouldn’t be here without women. Of course women wouldn’t be here without men either, but women carry the baby etc. So it seems to me that it is unwise to piss of women because the babies might not come around.
When I was raised in the church women were blamed for everything as well, so I think this is a universal problem. I think it is really pathetic and sad, but it does seem to be the way it is. Men have been uncomfortable with women since the whole eating of the fruit routine.
The problem is Judaism has become personalized. It all boils down to how you feel about something. For instance, if you are uncomfortable about listening to Lipa Schmeltzer music ( I hope I spelled his name right), you will shop your case to some rabbi and insist he mandates a halacha banning Lipa’s music. Halachot should not be based on sentimental feelings. If you don’t like something it doesn’t mean it should be prohibited. If you don’t feel comfortable sitting next to the opposite sex that’s not related to you anywhere, then find another seat elsewhere.
As far as blaming all the world’s problem on women ’s lack of tznius, I think its a crock of s**t. I don’t see how a girl not wearing stockings having some accountability for the Tsunami. Yes we have areas that need improving irrefutably but I think sinat cheenam is far worse than wearing a skirt slightly above the knee cap. I don’t see what could comes out of finger pointing and blaming people for catastrophes world wide because they refuse to comply to a certain stringency. Hitler and the Arabs used the same rhetoric to blame Jews for all the tragedies that occurred around the globe and to think that the charedim are emulating their example and pinning the same blame on women. I think its outrageous and those who blatantly incriminate those for their lack of religious observances are not exactly behaving in a Torah way. I heard that one person vehemently compared girls wearing tight clothing to al qaeda . True, 2 wrongs don’t make a right but I think blowing up innocent people in the name of a religion is a lot worse than dressing immodestly.
I agree totally actually. In Israel I did have to deal with women pushing past me, but they never pushed past men. Where as I know a girl who was physically thrown off a bus by a chareidi man. (He lifted her and threw her into the crowd). Not to mention the multiple times I was shoved aside by chareidi men. How come tznius doesn’t apply to them when they want to get somewhere?
At some point, I’m hoping for a Lysistrata-like solution for Chareidism’s issues with women. Pissed off at being banned out of everything, the women decide to withhold the one thing that they possess almost exclusively…the ability to give out sex. Hopefully, no stupid Rabbi will give out a heter for marital rape or some dumb shit like that (see some rabbis, including the Rambam, who allow a man to beat his wife…thank God the Rama said it’s assur without question,) so it should work. Faced with this one problem, the Chareidim either go into those anonymous gay parks, which most won’t, or give up and allow for the women to get some kind of education, freedom to walk around and chat, and hopefully cut down on the burka-like chumras, with the end of it being them stopping being more than baby & kugel machines.
I for one would be very sad if we would do away with women totally. They’re good for…so many things…
It’s all very easy to complain, but what’s the solution? Also, is this just an Israeli problem or American too (i.e., do men in Boroughpark behave this way)? Maybe the Israeli state is to blame (as it is to blame for the domestic abuse amongst chareidim in Israel)?
Hornball: banning women will require men to give birth themselves. I think this prospect only will stop them.
Plus it’ll gimme some nasty wrist cramps.
Gemara in Soitah says that only fools admit their sins publicly — it means they are not embarrassed, and thus they double their sins by committing chillul Hashem. (Which is the answer, by the way, to the earlier post on “coming out”.)
Halacha controls women to certain extents. Frummies that go beyond it remind me of muslims: There culture and religion is so perverse that they even get znus in their afterlife.
That’s why when an arab women goes out with more than her eyebrows showing she gets gangbanged in the name of justice.
These same chumra police are the first to molest little girls or pay for love.
Women are being convinced they ARE the problem. I’m sure you’ve heard it, “Men and women are different, mens’ taivos are stronger than womens’, a women who isn’t tznius is oiver lo sitaen michshal…”
I think that frummie society makes guys see girls as GIRLS instead of people, then blames the women for tempting men.
The real problem is that Charedim in Israel don’t work and have too much time on their hands. You never get these kind of protests in America – if B and H would close one day it may happen – but until then…
G*3: You’re very right about that one. It’s like not letting a kid have candy, they just want it more!
i think enforced separate seating on buses is ridiculous. you dont have to sit down next to anyone you dont want to sit next to.
Actually, the only people who push are chareidi men. The non-religious tend to keep their distance, same for the “kippot srugot,” “crocheted kippot” guys.
http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/2009/04/dont-seat-me-in-back-of-bus.html
I wrote about it the other day and got some disagreeable comments, even from women!
Lonelyman,
Rambam never said husbands are allowed to beat their wives, he saud they can have beis din compel them to perform their duties even if they have to beat them with a stick.
I cn’t see those women giving up the enjoyment they have left either, as they seem to have been banned from everything else.
I dig chicks.
Well here is a great way that women can get even… they could always not marry that type of person. Sends a message saying “(expletive) you”
What did Ramabam say the middle road?
Sorry for the double post
1) the above is not reference to the conversation about Rambam
2) I just want to ask…. How do you define a chulil hasham? (I know how its defined so don’t answer)
One more and I will lay off and let someone get in some hits.
If they object to interacting with the public on the bus why don’t they just save their money from their jobs and buy a car?
>>>Phil : Halacha controls women to certain extents. Frummies that go beyond it remind me of muslims: There culture and religion is so perverse that they even get znus in their afterlife.
Halacha controls everyone. Men, Women and children.
Why don’t women object? Well, Women who buck the system don’t have an easy time of it. But Women who support it and advance the system, achieve a bit of respect and vicarious power.
Once I refused to allow myself to get kicked off a bus. The woman before me had stepped down dociley without a complaint. When she saw that I wasn’t, she started to scream at me louder than the men. “Who do you think you are! What are you trying to prove!” I felt sorry for her; she seemed to be more angrier at herself.
The women are told that “the rabbis and torah say…”
The chareidim blur the lines between Torah/mitzvot and chumrot/medrashim.
Batya, the charedim blur the lines between G-d’s Will and their own desires. No matter how black their hats or how long their beards that makes them idolators and therefore outside the pale of Judaism.
The day after women are banned, all the guys will be walking around naked.
There are women who are tznius Rottweilers. They’ll confront you in the street about the slit in your skirt, the length of your son’s hair, your dancing with a friend (behind a wall of other women) at Simchas Beis Hashoeiva- any excuse to put the burka on another woman. I knew a family once where the mother made a career out of being the public tznius police- those of her kids who didn’t go off the derech, suffer from various nervous conditions.
chevramaidel, there’s no oppression like internalized oppression. Terry Pratchett wisely called it “whips in the soul”. There are also Afghan and Saudi women who froth at the mouth when women choose their own husbands or go around unveiled.
I am curious… did women get this treatment in front of their husbands and how did they react? If someone was attacking a family member I wouldn’t mind sending them to the hospital.
I was at someone’s house for shabbat — and the wife, who will remain as indistinct as possible, is a somewhat prominent leader in the NYC area. Both her and her daughters wore skirts over the weekend whose hems danced provocatively around the knees. When leaders in the community fail to address these issues at home, how can one be upset with the common person? After speaking with my rabbi, I’ve come to conclusion that this ties directly into issues of an intimate nature as they relate to shalom bayis. Women feel the need to be alluring to everyone…but their husbands. Their husbands are then drawn to all of the other wives (and girls) who are luring them, and leaving their own husbands without whom to look at except other men’s wives, and the cycle continues. That’s why men and women like mixed seating events. The women are all dressed up, other men look at them and want to talk to them — sort of an emotional infidelity. Women don’t get it, and they’re like, “Wow…all these men are talking to me all night! Why can’t my husband do that?” Men are thinking, “Wow…these ladies/girls look so pretty! Why can’t my wife do that?” Husbands and wives then get caught up in comparing their spouses to other people, leading to even more resentment.
I am starting to think that the whole point of tznius is to keep women on edge and the men in power.
Anon7,
Don’t know what events you’ve been attending, I usually get the opposite idea from events like school meetings, where men and women attend dressed in everyday clothes.
I’m always thinking, “boy do I feel bad for her husband”.
Then again, I don’t find anything provocative about a skirt “dancing around ones knees”.
Weddings are a different story, when everyone is trying to look their best, especially relatives that go on crash diets and spends thousands on outfits, makeup, hair etc.
Frum Satire, that is the precise and exact truth
THE ISLAMIZATION OF JUDAISM
Higher mechitzas, lower skirts, when will we adopt the “burka”? Tsnius is a midah, and really should not be legislated. What about “gluttony”? Why don’t we see a “comittee” against that? What about “gaivah”? Doesn’t gaivah push a person out of the world? Where is the “comittee” against gaiva?
It’s always easier to impose chumras on others rather than fix what’s wrong with yourself.
he same people that will scream about certain shechita or cholv yisroel, have no problem sleeping all morning and showing up to shul past the zman, even though the first halacha in Shulchan Aruch clearly rules that one must awake before dawn in order to serve Hashem.
The list goes on and on. As long as basic halachic guidelines are followed, people dont need to abstain. Too many chumras eventually end up driving people off the derech.
Um, I think we should seperate Tznius from feelings of animosity toward the charedi. Yes they should get jobs and serve in the army.
Moving on, how many demure, subservient Jewish women have you ever met? (religious or not) The fact of the matter is tznius is a choice. No-one forces me to do it. I understand my community, my husband etc might look at me differently if I didn’t keep it but thats not why I do it.
I know many beautiful, intelligent even sexy women who never show their elbows, knees or collarbones. Judaism doesn’t dictate a woman must be unattractive, quite the opposite I thought. The point is your physical beauty shouldn’t marr anyone’s(including your own) perception of you as a holy Jewish woman, I don’t want my Rebbitzin conducting a shuir in a low cut top and mini, yes she would still be a holy Jewish woman but the messages her attire would send out would be different.
Finally I wasn’t born frum and let me tell you there is nothing liberating or empowering about wearing revealing clothing. I know tznius isn’t just about clothing and touching men etc but its a good place to start.
Perhaps it would be good to walk with a hiking stick… if someone starts up about clothing you can just beat them until they stop… kind of gives a new meaning to “you have to beat them off with a stick”