Kelsey Media

Do you keep selective shomer negiah?

31 comments

shomer-negiahI wonder how many people keep selective negiah? Meaning they tell some people they do not touch the opposite sex and with others they don’t keep negiah at all. I got to thinking about this girl I had a crush on a few years ago – I remember how crushed I felt when she told me she kept negiah, I was heartbroken – all fantasies were out the window.

You could only imagine how crushed I felt when I saw her making out with some dude. And that’s selective negiah. It also works if you want to scare away guys, tell a guy you keep negiah and its through much of the time. Great way to keep sleazy guys away as well.

I find that women use negiah as a defense mechanism against unwanted advances by randomly throwing it into conversation. I was recently at a purim party and this girl I was hitting on said “I am shomer negiah” at the most opportune time, of course I didn’t mind because I myself believe negiah is the way to go, but they way she said it was like the frum girl way of saying, “by the way your not getting any tonight”.

We men really can’t use no touching to our advantage – it just doesn’t work.

Other shomer negiah posts:

Shomer negiah categories

Awkward shomer negiah moments

Fictional shomer negiah

Are you shomer but with it?

  • SF2K1

    What about in NCSY where Shomer Negiah is used as a status grabber and then you have the girls who insistently want to break them of their habit (usually the plan from the beginning for these kids anyhow)?

  • http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=73386798063&ref=nf Salomon Zotter

    Some r plato-paulus-like Pseudologists – in the end simple liars, some r great people who
    BUILD THEIR OWN FRIENDSHIP FAMILY.
    If someone is a lifelong brother/sister of the heart – is it then breaking of Shomer Negiah?
    For men, it is helpful 2 have lesbian female friends – so women can change into nasty ferocious … if one doesnt show them the devotion they deem necessary.
    So it is important 2 try 2 take care that also NonJews and NonObservers have the chance to experience happy Judaism.
    In our society – no contact w (in)humane beings is possible without Rabbincal advice or better a marital Mashgiach. :D
    so long, shalom sameach, salomon

  • Mark

    There are many cases in which people are shomer negiah until the find the person they want to break the rule with :-)

  • LearnedShiksa

    Being negiah is not exactly a sleaze deterrent but a times a flashing beacon. I’ve donated some good coinage to that charity, even in circles where shomer negiah is common knowledge.

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    She took one look at you started keeping shomer negiah. Nice going, you’re turning the world into a frummer place. Maybe you should open a chapter of shomer negiah outreach… Wait, is that an oxymoron?

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    Mark I have been in that situation multiple times

    Phil that is true – but she gave me her number

  • http://freshwater-phil.blogspot.com Phil

    I guess she got cold feet once she met you in person. Simple way to get rid of you the “nice” way. Did you tell her anything once you busted her with the other guy?

  • Leeba

    It is nice to be able to keep shomer negiah. It does keep the creeps away and the ones who think that it is sport to try and break a frum woman.

    I will keep shomer negiah until I am married again. Hopefully the marriage will happen as it is not easy for a woman …trust me on this one.

  • Frum But Fun

    Does hand shaking at interviews count? What about bitch-slapping? I could make an exception to that rule anytime :-)

  • Mark

    My general rule (whether imposed by me or her) was no negiah until we were “serious”. In my case serious means clear marriage potential. I think the casual negiah of hand shaking in the workplace or even brushing up against women in close quarters is complete nonsense and has nothing whatsoever to do with the reason the concept of shomer negiah was created.

    I also have my own rules for taharat hamishpacha. Basically no sexual contact during niddah until after mikvah. But none of that separate beds nonsense, I know that I have adequate control over myself, and I know that my wife has adequate control over herself, and we have managed to keep that control for about 12 years so far. But I can clearly understand how those who do not have that level of control might want separate beds. And we certainly hand things to each other when necessary!!!

  • Anonymous

    ur rly a sick pig all of u

  • Adeena Zoo

    You know, there are too many Jewish sluts. Like, you go to a wedding, and they’re all dressed like white trash.

    So, now they gonna be white trash.

  • Hornball

    I keep shomer negiah with my willy.

  • elizab.

    Mark- why don’t you just re-write the torah the way you would like it to be? Then you wouldn’t have to follow any rules.

  • Mark

    elizab – why don’t you just re-write the torah the way you would like it to be? Then you wouldn’t have to follow any rules.

    Exactly which rule from the Torah do you think I am not following. Please include chapter and verse for clarity.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    Mark did you know that masturbation is not mentioned in the Torah as well.

  • Mark

    FS – did you know that masturbation is not mentioned in the Torah as well.

    It most certainly is!!! Take a look in Bereshit perek lamed chet pasuk zayin, chet, tet. Also refer to Rashi and Masechet Yebamot daf lamed daled amud bet and Masechet Nidda daf yod gimmel amud bet.

  • ghottistyx

    The story of Onan? No, Chazal learns that the story refers to masturbation. If you take the story of Onan literally, it refers to ‘pulling out’. To Chazal, wasted seed is wasted seed.

    I actually once had an extensive argument with a friend who was raised Catholic; he believes that Catholics are more against masturbation than Jews. He was basing this strictly on ‘masturbation not being mentioned in the Torah and Onan not NECESSARILY being about it’. I told him that one thing I remember from my stint in Yeshiva is that according to MANY sources (Mark’s being just the beginning), one who masturbates is going to gehenom. The same goes for contraception, et al (which Catholics are also against).

    The most I could give my friend who was raised Catholic was ‘at least the Jews don’t encourage our holy men to remain chaste’.

  • ghottistyx

    Sorry to double post, but I recall learning one somewhere in the Even Ha’Ezer about how you can’t even ride a horse wearing tight pants because that may cause you to ejaculate. I guess this is what we call a p’sik reisha…

  • Rentsy

    Mark, I want you to know that, to paraphrase Kohelet, there is nothing new under the sun.

    I refer you to Shabbas 13a-b (I encourage you to take a look at the story because there are some details that you would not believe if I told them to you)

    The story is about a promising talmid chacham who shared the bed with his wife while she was niddah. Even though they didn’t even consider having relations, their choice is condemned.

    It is exactly your situation.

  • Mark

    The story is about a promising talmid chacham who shared the bed with his wife while she was niddah. Even though they didn’t even consider having relations, their choice is condemned.

    First of all, I am not a promising talmid chacham, I am just a regular baal habayit doing my best to be a good Jew. Second of all, I bet their bed was quite a bit different than my king size bed (that quite often has a few of our 5 kids in it with us, all times of the month :-). Mention of a “wide bed” is even made in that part of the Gemara. Third of all, I am not aware of many super frum people that dine apart from their wives for 2 weeks every month.

    Finally, I don’t particularly like the doubtful part of the medrash mentioned that Gemara where they try to explain the untimely death of a man in middle age. The source is quite doubtful in that case and I believe that the Rabbis were generally opposed to such glib explanations of phenomena known only to Hashem (“Mi yechyeh, u-mi yamut”). And, in fact, I feel the same way today – whenever absurd pronouncements of a “cause” for various disasters are made, I place zero credence in them.

  • Rentsy

    I’m not saying you’re going to die (Chas v’shalom!). That’s silly, and it would be terrible.

    I would say, though, that it serves as pretty strong indication that the Rabbis disapproved of that sort of behavior, even though it is “technically” within the bounds of Torah law.

  • http://www.frumsatire.net Frum Satire

    Well I am of the opinion that a lot of what was taught back then was based on current societal mores and not necessarily applied to today – but I am not going to share my supposedly apikorsos views and start a whole fight.

  • Mark

    I would say, though, that it serves as pretty strong indication that the Rabbis disapproved of that sort of behavior, even though it is “technically” within the bounds of Torah law.

    Which behavior exactly do you think they disapproved of?

    One of the things that I consider during my brachot of the day is thanks to Hashem for giving me a functional brain so I can understand things to the best of my ability rather than to have to rely on others for my every action.

  • Rentsy

    The whole share-bed-with-niddah-wife-even-though-no-touchy thing.

    Are you reliant on me saying that, or are you just being ornery?

  • Mark

    The whole share-bed-with-niddah-wife-even-though-no-touchy thing.

    I have to check again, but the way I read the Gemara, they strongly frowned upon his eating with his wife, drinking with his wife, and sleeping with his wife while she was a niddah (interestingly described as “yemai levonaich”, or “the white days”. They probably mean the days after mamash niddah, while waiting to immerse in the mikvah. Tosfos says a zavah counting 7 clean days who wears white for bedikah purposes).

    Are you reliant on me saying that, or are you just being ornery?

    Mostly just being ornery :-) But also illustrating a point. In that Gemara those three things (eating, drinking, and sleeping) are mentioned as equal. Thus the point is that everyone chooses (or uses their Rabbi to choose) their own interpretation of the law. I know that many (most? almost all?) people do eat and drink with their wives at this time, therefore they are choosing their interpretation. Just as I am.

  • Rentsy

    Yes, it would be the seven days after mamash niddah.

    There are two main undercurrents in Jewish thought when it comes to a man and his wife when they are niddah. One is that they should be seperated as much as possible “l’harhok adam m’aveira.” Shabbas 12-13 would support that view.

    The other is that even though a husband and wife may be prohibited from some things, that is no reason to prevent them from doing things that are permitted. Eruvin 63b supports this view.

    Rav Bruna said in the name of Rav, “A person who sleeps in the same room in which a husbund and wife are staying, about such a person the prophet (Michah 2:9) says: ‘The wives of my nation you have chased from the house of enjoyment.”

    Rav Yosef added, “This is true even if the wife was niddah.”

    Rava disagrees, saying that the interposition of the extra person is good, because it prevents them from possibly sinning.

    But the Gemara turns away from that, saying “Until now, who was guarding them [from sin]?”

    The implication is that the intimacy and privacy of a husband and wife is very important. The verse from Micha is not only about physical pleasure. Rabbeinu Yehonatan explains that here the reference is to the private conversations that the two can have. Having another person in the room would disrupt this privacy.

    So it is a somewhat lengthy comment, but I wish to make it clear that I understand the complexity of the issue. There are two opposing forces at work here, and we, in good faith, try to find a compromise.

    Have a happy Passover.

  • Mark

    There are two opposing forces at work here, and we, in good faith, try to find a compromise.

    Bingo! That’s exactly what we all do in life.

    Chag Kasher Ve’Sameach to all!!!!

  • tuffjew

    Im shomer negiah but to only non-jews. Being that there are no jewish girls where i live im basically shomer although i do have to tell girls that because or else they blatantly try to get me to sleep with them. and not just slutty girls… ALL GIRLS! its rediculous! ARE THE KIPPAH AND TZITZIS NOT A BIG ENOUGH INDICATOR! Especially in utah. I think theres a contest going on in my school to see who can break me first, but then that doesn’t explain being hit on by 20 different girls at an overnight trip in vegas. I should just where a shirt that says “if your not jewish, im not interested.”

  • D.L.L

    i think you have left out a catagory:
    SIM- Shomer in moderation.
    this is the catagory underwhich i like to place myself. it’s for all those who are, ‘the religious’ kid who’s still ‘normal’ and friends with those less frum. those who dont openly flaunt their shomer-ness and dont run away from non-religious aquaintences, of the opposite sex, who open their arms (why imbarrass the person if you wont see them for another 6 months??)
    I’m negia. all my friends know. anyone who asks knows. why make a big deal of it??..shomer is for me…its for finding my potential partner (determining the religiously suitable from those that are not)… and for giving myself religious, physical boundaries to live a sexually ethical life..

  • Glatt some questions

    The number of people who decide not to be shomer negiah increases as singles get older. You will definitely not have as many 30 year old singles who are shomer negiah as you do 21 year olds.